Here is what could be an interesting topic. What do you believe happens to "us" after we die?
Comments
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questionPhillieG said:Hi WhichWitch
You certainly do not sound any crazier than the rest of us.
I'm not sure if I answered your question but you are in good company ;-)
There are no right or wrong answers, it's just what each of us believes. I do not know of anyone who died, went wherever, and can came back to tell everyone what, if anything, happened.
Thanks for taking the time to comment WW
-phil
Hi Phil,
Not trying to put anyone down, but a comment on the statement "There are no right or wrong answers, it's just what each of us believes." If that's truly a correct statement, well- I don't know how it could really be a true statement. If there's no absolutes of right and wrong, then how can there be any order? One could say that about our society and about our rules and laws. Maybe what I think is a good law, someone else wouldn't agree with. I wonder about the "Coexist" bumper sticker that's around a lot too. The idea is nice- that we can all get along together and appreciate and respect each other's beliefs. I get it, I do. BUT... if everyone's right, then NO ONE's right! I guess the idea is just that so many people don't understand each others' beliefs, so no one wants to be disrespectful and tell others they don't believe the same as them. If I really believe Jesus' words in the new testament, "No one comes to the Father, but through me" (which I do), then I guess I'm admitting that I really do not believe there are other paths to God other than through his son Jesus. I know that right there is what makes so many people upset and that's what makes so many Christians seem uppity and intolerant. I'm NOT trying to be intolerant (as I do examine what I believe quite often and am willing to try to look at things in different ways), but I will admit that I really do believe the quote above from Jesus- He is the only way- that's what I believe.
Not trying to engage anyone in an arguement here, really- just noting the irony of the the "Coexist" mentality- unless people's faith is fairly watered down, it's really not easy to believe "everyone's right". I guess it's just a matter of getting along without telling others what you believe. Jesus also said, however, for us to go into all the world preaching and sharing the news of Jesus Christ. Following that command from Jesus will definitely put me at odds with the "respect and don't offend others with your beliefs" mentality. Jesus was offensive to the religious leaders in his day- he preached to them and called them on their mistakes. I feel like, if I keep my mouth shut and don't try to share the news with others how I believe Jesus loves them and is offering them a relationship with Him and eternal life with him- then I wouldn't be living out my faith.
One could say, perhaps, the same thing about Muslims who follow their doctrine of jihad. Of course, the huge difference is that one is very evil and destructive and the other is out of love and concern for the salvation of others.
My thoughts on the "there is no right or wrong" thought. Anyhow- there's my rambling thoughts for the day, for what they're worth!
Lisa0 -
Yes, whichwitch, I believewhichwitch said:I think we have angels and
I think we have angels and also a guide with us in this life and they are all around us. I beleive in our love ones able to commucation with us after they pass on. I beleive their is a higher plane of life and we are here to help us move on to become better loving and caring. Yes, God is all around us too. We have a lot of support from the spirit world. Hope I don't sound crazy, I have a hard time putting thoughts into words. Am I making any since to anybody??
Yes, whichwitch, I believe that too.0 -
Where do we go when we die???PhillieG said:Interesting responses
The majority of the responses are those of a Christian belief (not that there's anything wrong with that). I wonder where all of the Buddhists, Agnostics, Atheists are. I'd love to hear from them. I wonder how many faiths other than Christian even come to this board? My experience is that there are few non-Christians here. Also, like Maria said, it's sometimes slow here. Not many of the "usual suspects" bother to visit. I think they feel like it's punishment to post here, they want to post their views where the cancer questions are supposed to be (IMO).
-p
Emily, you didn't scare anyone away.
Marcia, wow...some dream. They can be so complex at times it seems
Phil, your right most people are of Christian faith that have answered your question. But I'm here to tell you my beliefs,and I'm not Christian, but Jewish, or rather raised that way. I don't practice any religion and I'm married to a Christian. I believe we all came into this world the same way and we're all leaving the same way. I also don't believe in heaven and hell. I believe that we all have guardian angels looking out for us and helping to guide us thru our lives,and when we die it's just our bodies that cease to exist. Our spirits are still around and just maybe we are there to help someone else thru their journey.
I don't judge anyone else for what they believe, but I once worked for someone who was a Born Again Christian. I remember him telling me that I would never get into heaven because I didn't believe in Jesus and he didn't understand how I can believe in God, but not in his son.He made me quite angry,not because he said I would never get into heaven,but because he was being judgemental.
Being a cancer survivor has made me look at things from all angles and I believe it has made me a better person. I like knowing that I can possibly help someone else while I'm still here, but I like to also think that after I'm gone that I can still be of some help to someone.
You are all in my thoughts for long and healthy lives! Wendy0 -
spirit worldwhichwitch said:I think we have angels and
I think we have angels and also a guide with us in this life and they are all around us. I beleive in our love ones able to commucation with us after they pass on. I beleive their is a higher plane of life and we are here to help us move on to become better loving and caring. Yes, God is all around us too. We have a lot of support from the spirit world. Hope I don't sound crazy, I have a hard time putting thoughts into words. Am I making any since to anybody??
The day my sister died (she was 33 and i was 30) I definitely felt her spirit presence around me. It was very cool and very strong. After she died I also felt that she visited me in my dream world very strongly. I believe she brought me messages. I have a kinda cool story about that but for another time.
I know for a fact that we have angels since one of them woke my husband up when he fell asleep driving back from CO. The rest of us (4 kids and I) were all asleep and someone YELLED his name loudly and woke him up as he was leaving the road.
Just one example.
The rocks will cry out. God IS all around us and I find him the most in my favorite place next to our creek in our woods where my in-laws and pets are buried. Peace and tranquility.
Hey Phil! Where you been?
peace, emily0 -
would you date a married agnostic dude?lisa42 said:question
Hi Phil,
Not trying to put anyone down, but a comment on the statement "There are no right or wrong answers, it's just what each of us believes." If that's truly a correct statement, well- I don't know how it could really be a true statement. If there's no absolutes of right and wrong, then how can there be any order? One could say that about our society and about our rules and laws. Maybe what I think is a good law, someone else wouldn't agree with. I wonder about the "Coexist" bumper sticker that's around a lot too. The idea is nice- that we can all get along together and appreciate and respect each other's beliefs. I get it, I do. BUT... if everyone's right, then NO ONE's right! I guess the idea is just that so many people don't understand each others' beliefs, so no one wants to be disrespectful and tell others they don't believe the same as them. If I really believe Jesus' words in the new testament, "No one comes to the Father, but through me" (which I do), then I guess I'm admitting that I really do not believe there are other paths to God other than through his son Jesus. I know that right there is what makes so many people upset and that's what makes so many Christians seem uppity and intolerant. I'm NOT trying to be intolerant (as I do examine what I believe quite often and am willing to try to look at things in different ways), but I will admit that I really do believe the quote above from Jesus- He is the only way- that's what I believe.
Not trying to engage anyone in an arguement here, really- just noting the irony of the the "Coexist" mentality- unless people's faith is fairly watered down, it's really not easy to believe "everyone's right". I guess it's just a matter of getting along without telling others what you believe. Jesus also said, however, for us to go into all the world preaching and sharing the news of Jesus Christ. Following that command from Jesus will definitely put me at odds with the "respect and don't offend others with your beliefs" mentality. Jesus was offensive to the religious leaders in his day- he preached to them and called them on their mistakes. I feel like, if I keep my mouth shut and don't try to share the news with others how I believe Jesus loves them and is offering them a relationship with Him and eternal life with him- then I wouldn't be living out my faith.
One could say, perhaps, the same thing about Muslims who follow their doctrine of jihad. Of course, the huge difference is that one is very evil and destructive and the other is out of love and concern for the salvation of others.
My thoughts on the "there is no right or wrong" thought. Anyhow- there's my rambling thoughts for the day, for what they're worth!
Lisa
Lisa,
I have great respect for your beliefs. I do. And I appreciate that your belief is of sufficient strength and conviction that you are willing to stand up, as it were, in this 'room' and say, as Jesus purportedly did among the marketeers in the temple, "Hey, there is something wrong with this picture!"
But, I would offer that belief and tolerance do not have to be mutually exclusive. I think you have expressed as much yourself, in previous posts.
Leaving that aside, getting to the nut of the issue, to suggest that Islam is different than Christianity because Islam, or certain sects within, promote jihad while Christianity does not, is a gross misunderstanding about the history of the world.
I would venture to say that it is not cancer, it is not heart disease, it is not some exotic flu, it is not a plague, it is not even Islam, Hindusim or Bhuddism, that has killed the most people in the last 2000+ years but Christianity.
Look it up.
As for your obviously strident and strong beliefs, Lisa, I admire, even envy them, I do. I wish that I knew with certainty where I will go when this life ends. Regrettably, for me, I am not there, and am not certain I will ever get there. I tend to be a person of logic and rationality. And even the people of the cloth that I have talked to agree that belief requires a leap of faith.
True faith requires a leap beyond what is rational. That is not to say that it is wrong, but simply that it cannot simply be preached, not at least to anyone of any degree of intelligence. It requires a leap beyond what we can know rationally. It requires an irrational belief in the existence of a supreme existence.
I am not disparaging you, Lisa, before you begin to pound away on your keyboard. Some of the greatest thinkers of all time, including some of the greatest thinkers of current and recent times are (or were), if not Christians, at least deists.
So, it is with admitted hubris that I maintain my status as an agnostic, an unknower, as I like to put it. I simply do not know.
Regarding what Jesus did or did not do, it could be argued that the books of the second bible, if you will, (as well as those of the first, now that I think about it) were put together by minstrels of a sort.
But I will let that lay where it is, brought up only to point out that your belief, while ardent and true, is not based on facts, but the words of human beings from a time of great superstition. Your beliefs are irrational.
I admire your honesty and conviction.
Take care,
Joe0 -
KC2bhealed said:spirit world
The day my sister died (she was 33 and i was 30) I definitely felt her spirit presence around me. It was very cool and very strong. After she died I also felt that she visited me in my dream world very strongly. I believe she brought me messages. I have a kinda cool story about that but for another time.
I know for a fact that we have angels since one of them woke my husband up when he fell asleep driving back from CO. The rest of us (4 kids and I) were all asleep and someone YELLED his name loudly and woke him up as he was leaving the road.
Just one example.
The rocks will cry out. God IS all around us and I find him the most in my favorite place next to our creek in our woods where my in-laws and pets are buried. Peace and tranquility.
Hey Phil! Where you been?
peace, emily
I've been here and, I've been there and, I've been in between...0 -
2bhealed,2bhealed said:spirit world
The day my sister died (she was 33 and i was 30) I definitely felt her spirit presence around me. It was very cool and very strong. After she died I also felt that she visited me in my dream world very strongly. I believe she brought me messages. I have a kinda cool story about that but for another time.
I know for a fact that we have angels since one of them woke my husband up when he fell asleep driving back from CO. The rest of us (4 kids and I) were all asleep and someone YELLED his name loudly and woke him up as he was leaving the road.
Just one example.
The rocks will cry out. God IS all around us and I find him the most in my favorite place next to our creek in our woods where my in-laws and pets are buried. Peace and tranquility.
Hey Phil! Where you been?
peace, emily
I've had simular experiences. I was raised in a strict church but left because it didn't make sense. I believe if you ask from your soul, you will be answered. It happened to me. I've also been answered by another who had passed over in a dream.0 -
Very cool
Thank you Phil - this is a very cool thread and I found it very interesting to read everyones views, beliefs, etc.
As for me - Im struggling. I don't yet have the gift of complete faith. I believe in something larger than all of us - something divine - but not in the way I have been taught. I question the stories - my mind gets in the way. I was raised Catholic, and since my husband's diagnosis have gone back to mass, but I can't really say that I am a true Catholic. I go to pray to God. My husband is Lutheran, but does not believe in organized religion, and I raised my children as Catholics, and their radical CCD teachers managed to turn them both away from Catholicism by telling them that their father "could never get to heaven unless he went to confession and was saved", and that "innocent babies that die before baptism can never get to heaven", along with other things I do not believe, do not want to believe about God. I want to believe that God is all love and compassion and includes all who strive for goodness, peace and love towards mankind, animals, the earth.
As for what I do know for sure - I believe that evil exists. As Emily said - "..ask the people of Darfur about hell..". I could cite many other examples also. I sometimes feel that hell is right here on earth - that the fact that horrors are allowed to happen all the time makes this hell - free will allows us to make our own hell right here - and that the good things that happen are our glimpses of heaven, of what can be if we all collectively use/lead with the innate goodness we can possess. I know I certainly felt God's presence when my newborn babies were placed in my arms, and that I certainly had just participated in a miracle.
Creation vs. Evolution - I lean towards evolution, or maybe some combination of both theories.
I frequently feel awed by the divinity of nature also, and as I said in another thread the beauty of music, art.
I also believe in angels - that we are sometimes angels for each other too. I have had times in my life where a person was put in my path to help me through a rough or challenging situation, so I do believe that some people come into our lives as angels and that sometimes we are used in that capacity for others also, as an instrument of healing, or peace, or knowledge, etc. Look at the goodness, compassion, and generousity on these boards - I believe that is the spark of divinity in us that wants to reach out and help others.
As for what happens after we die - I believe there are spirits around us and that they can be here to help us, and to guide us to what is best for our souls (yes, I believe we have souls). I am also open to the possibility that we - our souls - may have been here before and will be here again, til we work out some issue or learn something that helps us transcend. I don't want to believe we are just DEAD - and don't think we are. When my father passed away after a long illness my sister woke up in the middle of the night to find my nephew talking in his crib. When she asked him who he was talking to, he said "Pop Pop". He was about 2 years old. My father adored his children and grandchildren. My nephew was the youngest and named after my father, who had been very sick during most of my nephew's young life. He doesn't remember my father at all - unlike my children or my niece who were older and got to know him a little. I want to believe my father's spirit was around my nephew, and in fact is watching over my children and nieces and nephews now - the ones that were born after his death too. Also, I once went to a physic with my sister. I really don't believe in physics, but this was weird. When I walked into the room for my turn, before anyone who could have told her my father was gone, she said to me "your father says hello and said he is watching over your pain in the a$$ dog for you". My very affectionate golden retriever, who was not very well trained in obedience, had recently died. She had no way of knowing that, and my father was a very loving, very funny, cut-up kind of guy. It is exactly what he would have said. It was very, very wierd!!
So, I guess I am a believer of sorts. A confused believer. A believer on a journey. On another thread I talked about a sermon I heard one morning at mass. The priest was saying that Jesus rebelled against the religious leaders of his time, rebelled against the "absolute" laws. He said that Jesus stood in the middle with his arms stretched wide to include all views, all people. I like that Jesus. I don't believe there is one path to God, one right way. I like to think of God as all inclusive to those who seek to live a good life, treating others respectfully and caring about others, doing no harm, loving and respecting all creation. I do struggle with why an all loving, all powerful, compassionate God allows horrors to happen (ie., Darfur, the Holocaust, harm or sickness to innocent children, illnesses like cancer, etc., etc., etc.,). Some believers say it is part of free will, but I still have questions. Guess this is part of my lack of faith to trust in what I don't/can't understand. I envy those with complete faith. There must be peace in that.
Sorry to have rambled - got caught up in my thoughts. Hope I didn't bore anyone or sound disrespectful to anyone - that was not my intention.
Thanks Phil for an interesting thread!
Peace in your hearts,
Donna0 -
Great question
I don't think its over when we die but that doesn't mean I think its heaven or hell. I think this energy that is our conciousness, who we are inside our bodies moves forward into something else. Could be another dimension, maybe conciousness without physical existence, its unknown. I want to live a long life but I don't really fear this, even with with a cancer diagnosos I have grown more comfortable in my thoughts about when this curtain comes down.
Phil thanks for pointing out this section in your CRC post, I never thought to look beyond cancer type in the discussion boards. I am purposefully keeping my comments to what I believe and not why I don't believe what someone else does.
Mike0 -
May I laugh?donnare said:Very cool
Thank you Phil - this is a very cool thread and I found it very interesting to read everyones views, beliefs, etc.
As for me - Im struggling. I don't yet have the gift of complete faith. I believe in something larger than all of us - something divine - but not in the way I have been taught. I question the stories - my mind gets in the way. I was raised Catholic, and since my husband's diagnosis have gone back to mass, but I can't really say that I am a true Catholic. I go to pray to God. My husband is Lutheran, but does not believe in organized religion, and I raised my children as Catholics, and their radical CCD teachers managed to turn them both away from Catholicism by telling them that their father "could never get to heaven unless he went to confession and was saved", and that "innocent babies that die before baptism can never get to heaven", along with other things I do not believe, do not want to believe about God. I want to believe that God is all love and compassion and includes all who strive for goodness, peace and love towards mankind, animals, the earth.
As for what I do know for sure - I believe that evil exists. As Emily said - "..ask the people of Darfur about hell..". I could cite many other examples also. I sometimes feel that hell is right here on earth - that the fact that horrors are allowed to happen all the time makes this hell - free will allows us to make our own hell right here - and that the good things that happen are our glimpses of heaven, of what can be if we all collectively use/lead with the innate goodness we can possess. I know I certainly felt God's presence when my newborn babies were placed in my arms, and that I certainly had just participated in a miracle.
Creation vs. Evolution - I lean towards evolution, or maybe some combination of both theories.
I frequently feel awed by the divinity of nature also, and as I said in another thread the beauty of music, art.
I also believe in angels - that we are sometimes angels for each other too. I have had times in my life where a person was put in my path to help me through a rough or challenging situation, so I do believe that some people come into our lives as angels and that sometimes we are used in that capacity for others also, as an instrument of healing, or peace, or knowledge, etc. Look at the goodness, compassion, and generousity on these boards - I believe that is the spark of divinity in us that wants to reach out and help others.
As for what happens after we die - I believe there are spirits around us and that they can be here to help us, and to guide us to what is best for our souls (yes, I believe we have souls). I am also open to the possibility that we - our souls - may have been here before and will be here again, til we work out some issue or learn something that helps us transcend. I don't want to believe we are just DEAD - and don't think we are. When my father passed away after a long illness my sister woke up in the middle of the night to find my nephew talking in his crib. When she asked him who he was talking to, he said "Pop Pop". He was about 2 years old. My father adored his children and grandchildren. My nephew was the youngest and named after my father, who had been very sick during most of my nephew's young life. He doesn't remember my father at all - unlike my children or my niece who were older and got to know him a little. I want to believe my father's spirit was around my nephew, and in fact is watching over my children and nieces and nephews now - the ones that were born after his death too. Also, I once went to a physic with my sister. I really don't believe in physics, but this was weird. When I walked into the room for my turn, before anyone who could have told her my father was gone, she said to me "your father says hello and said he is watching over your pain in the a$$ dog for you". My very affectionate golden retriever, who was not very well trained in obedience, had recently died. She had no way of knowing that, and my father was a very loving, very funny, cut-up kind of guy. It is exactly what he would have said. It was very, very wierd!!
So, I guess I am a believer of sorts. A confused believer. A believer on a journey. On another thread I talked about a sermon I heard one morning at mass. The priest was saying that Jesus rebelled against the religious leaders of his time, rebelled against the "absolute" laws. He said that Jesus stood in the middle with his arms stretched wide to include all views, all people. I like that Jesus. I don't believe there is one path to God, one right way. I like to think of God as all inclusive to those who seek to live a good life, treating others respectfully and caring about others, doing no harm, loving and respecting all creation. I do struggle with why an all loving, all powerful, compassionate God allows horrors to happen (ie., Darfur, the Holocaust, harm or sickness to innocent children, illnesses like cancer, etc., etc., etc.,). Some believers say it is part of free will, but I still have questions. Guess this is part of my lack of faith to trust in what I don't/can't understand. I envy those with complete faith. There must be peace in that.
Sorry to have rambled - got caught up in my thoughts. Hope I didn't bore anyone or sound disrespectful to anyone - that was not my intention.
Thanks Phil for an interesting thread!
Peace in your hearts,
Donna
Oh Donna,
I LOVED your story about going to the psychic!
:-)
Sorry about your dad and your dog though.
peace, emily0 -
Not there anymorelisa42 said:To Emily- not preachy!
Hi Emily,
I don't think you sounded preachy- this board is for sharing our thoughts and beliefs! I'm sure you well remember all of our exchanges a few months back! Actually, much of what you just shared above I feel a little differently about now than when we had our exchanges a few months back. Life is an ongoing journey, isn't it?! I do believe, though, when Jesus said, "It is finished", when he died on the cross, that was referring to his life and work on earth. Yes, he did pay the price for us right then and there, so yes, that part was finished. Jesus did say while he was on earth, however, that "No one comes to the Father, but through me". I don't believe we need to work our way into heaven by our good deeds, works, hoops to jump through, etc., as many people get hung up on. Remember, Jesus had told Nicodeum in John 3:3, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." In John 3:18, it says,"Whoever believes in himis not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son". I believe when we talked months ago about much of this, our difference was on whether or not you have to pray to receive Jesus. I think, with what I hear you saying today, that our difference may really be more just semantics, not neccessarily a true difference. Romans 10:9 says, "If you confess with your mouth 'Jesus is Lord' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." As you mentioned the thief on the cross, he was saved because at that moment he believed.
Christians get so caught up in their "Christian lingo", that many have a very hard time getting past the lingo and what it actually means, I believe. The "four spiritual laws" are most definitely Biblically based, but these "laws" themselves are not mentioned in the Bible. Praying to confess our sins and then receive Jesus into our heart and lives is an act of "confessing with our mouth". It is merely believing, then acting upon that belief.
Emily, the one thought I have for you, though, is to not give up completely on going to church! Just because you have gotten weird vibes from people at church isn't a reason to "throw out the baby with the bathwater", so to speak! We are also commanded to worship and have fellowship with other believers. Remember, "where two or three are gathered in My name, there I am among the midst of them". Now that's certainly not to say that He isn't present for us when we pray alone, but I think it's representative of how God believes it's important to also gather together and worship in tandem with other believers. I know that can definitely be done in ways other than attending church on Sunday mornings, but I really believe that we should be attending a church to worship together and be spiritually fed. Now, if the church you were attending wasn't doing that for you, then I'd recommend searching for a new church. You have so much to offer as a kind, loving person, that I believe you could bring a lot to another church body of believers. Yes, as you said, it was the "religious" folks that Jesus used to get so upset at! More so than nonbelievers- nonbelievers had an excuse- the church leaders didn't! But just remember that even people who are Christians or even church leaders are just imperfect people like everyone else. We're all going through this adventure in life as believers together.
Take care Emily- know, also, that I'm continuing to pray for your son's full recovery from his bike accident and for your strept infection also (I commented on that in your colorectal board thread).
Lisa
Hi Lisa,
Well, I'm not really where you are in the belief factor these days. I was there years ago so I really understand where you're coming from and what you're saying. But paralleling my cancer journey has been my spiritual journey and both have evolved.
The Church is corrupt. We have seen it time and again. Sure there are pockets of wonderful churches and believers doing wonderful things. I'm not throwing the baby out with the bath water; i have just come to a greater clarity of the role of a church in my life. I have the same feeling about our government--it's corrupt (both sides donkeys and elephants). But, knowing this full well, I pay my taxes, follow the laws etc etc. I do have fellowship with believers--just not the "typical" Roman style sit in pews looking at an altar listening to the service predominated by men in churches run by men.
But, I am planning on going back to the church of my childhood when I move next year back to my hometown. You see, when I "became a Christian" (alright, dare I say, Born Again) i was taught that the church of my youth, my infant baptism, my confirmation in the Episcopal church, was not "Christian" and not spirit-filled. So in order to really be "saved" I had to say certain words, yada yada yada. Looking back on those early years, all i can say is, How Arrogant!
I bought it hook line and sinker. But 8 years ago (just a couple months before my dx) I started to Wake Up and look around and really question the commonly held beliefs that we were being fed weekly. I just can't go there anymore. God has taken me to a deeper place of acceptance and compassion for those I used to deem Unsaved. I no longer can say with certainty and pass final judgment on others if they're going to heaven or not. It's almost as if I have been deprogrammed from the cult-like jargon of evangelicals, and that happened when we left our missionary farm and moved to the North Woods where I communed with God only and listened to Him only. It was actually by leaving the church that I found my deeper understanding of how HUGE God is and how tiny we are, but all too often we make God tiny and the church huge. I am a Child of God and that is enough. Truly enough. But I don't believe anymore that I am a child of God b/c I invited Jesus into my heart 27 years ago.
I liken it to leaving a dysfunctional alcoholic relationship. When you're in the thick of it you might not realize just how dysfunctional it is. Then when you get out of the craziness you first start to see it, then feel the calm, and then get stronger to deal with the dysfunction. That's where I feel I'm at--the place where I can go back with my eyes wide open and a whole lot more awareness of where God is (everywhere--even in the Episcopal church) and what the church is.
Does any of this make sense to you?
I had to get out of it, erase the dogma, and now can go back with a clean open slate of enlightenment.
Well, I surely put it all out there on this one.
I am tempted to hit the delete button! HA! :-)
peace, emily0 -
Absolutely Emily!2bhealed said:May I laugh?
Oh Donna,
I LOVED your story about going to the psychic!
:-)
Sorry about your dad and your dog though.
peace, emily
My sister and I - whole family really - laugh every time we talk about it!! My dad was really a character and I come from a family of cut-ups. My sister and mom love going to card readers, psychics, etc., so my brothers are always asking them to ask my father for the winning lottery numbers! :-))) The weirdest/funniest part was that that is exactly what my dad would have said about my dog!!
So glad your son is okay!!
Donna0 -
Wowdonnare said:Very cool
Thank you Phil - this is a very cool thread and I found it very interesting to read everyones views, beliefs, etc.
As for me - Im struggling. I don't yet have the gift of complete faith. I believe in something larger than all of us - something divine - but not in the way I have been taught. I question the stories - my mind gets in the way. I was raised Catholic, and since my husband's diagnosis have gone back to mass, but I can't really say that I am a true Catholic. I go to pray to God. My husband is Lutheran, but does not believe in organized religion, and I raised my children as Catholics, and their radical CCD teachers managed to turn them both away from Catholicism by telling them that their father "could never get to heaven unless he went to confession and was saved", and that "innocent babies that die before baptism can never get to heaven", along with other things I do not believe, do not want to believe about God. I want to believe that God is all love and compassion and includes all who strive for goodness, peace and love towards mankind, animals, the earth.
As for what I do know for sure - I believe that evil exists. As Emily said - "..ask the people of Darfur about hell..". I could cite many other examples also. I sometimes feel that hell is right here on earth - that the fact that horrors are allowed to happen all the time makes this hell - free will allows us to make our own hell right here - and that the good things that happen are our glimpses of heaven, of what can be if we all collectively use/lead with the innate goodness we can possess. I know I certainly felt God's presence when my newborn babies were placed in my arms, and that I certainly had just participated in a miracle.
Creation vs. Evolution - I lean towards evolution, or maybe some combination of both theories.
I frequently feel awed by the divinity of nature also, and as I said in another thread the beauty of music, art.
I also believe in angels - that we are sometimes angels for each other too. I have had times in my life where a person was put in my path to help me through a rough or challenging situation, so I do believe that some people come into our lives as angels and that sometimes we are used in that capacity for others also, as an instrument of healing, or peace, or knowledge, etc. Look at the goodness, compassion, and generousity on these boards - I believe that is the spark of divinity in us that wants to reach out and help others.
As for what happens after we die - I believe there are spirits around us and that they can be here to help us, and to guide us to what is best for our souls (yes, I believe we have souls). I am also open to the possibility that we - our souls - may have been here before and will be here again, til we work out some issue or learn something that helps us transcend. I don't want to believe we are just DEAD - and don't think we are. When my father passed away after a long illness my sister woke up in the middle of the night to find my nephew talking in his crib. When she asked him who he was talking to, he said "Pop Pop". He was about 2 years old. My father adored his children and grandchildren. My nephew was the youngest and named after my father, who had been very sick during most of my nephew's young life. He doesn't remember my father at all - unlike my children or my niece who were older and got to know him a little. I want to believe my father's spirit was around my nephew, and in fact is watching over my children and nieces and nephews now - the ones that were born after his death too. Also, I once went to a physic with my sister. I really don't believe in physics, but this was weird. When I walked into the room for my turn, before anyone who could have told her my father was gone, she said to me "your father says hello and said he is watching over your pain in the a$$ dog for you". My very affectionate golden retriever, who was not very well trained in obedience, had recently died. She had no way of knowing that, and my father was a very loving, very funny, cut-up kind of guy. It is exactly what he would have said. It was very, very wierd!!
So, I guess I am a believer of sorts. A confused believer. A believer on a journey. On another thread I talked about a sermon I heard one morning at mass. The priest was saying that Jesus rebelled against the religious leaders of his time, rebelled against the "absolute" laws. He said that Jesus stood in the middle with his arms stretched wide to include all views, all people. I like that Jesus. I don't believe there is one path to God, one right way. I like to think of God as all inclusive to those who seek to live a good life, treating others respectfully and caring about others, doing no harm, loving and respecting all creation. I do struggle with why an all loving, all powerful, compassionate God allows horrors to happen (ie., Darfur, the Holocaust, harm or sickness to innocent children, illnesses like cancer, etc., etc., etc.,). Some believers say it is part of free will, but I still have questions. Guess this is part of my lack of faith to trust in what I don't/can't understand. I envy those with complete faith. There must be peace in that.
Sorry to have rambled - got caught up in my thoughts. Hope I didn't bore anyone or sound disrespectful to anyone - that was not my intention.
Thanks Phil for an interesting thread!
Peace in your hearts,
Donna
Great reply Donna. We share a lot of beliefs.
Thanks for posting.
-phil0 -
glad you didn't hit delete2bhealed said:Not there anymore
Hi Lisa,
Well, I'm not really where you are in the belief factor these days. I was there years ago so I really understand where you're coming from and what you're saying. But paralleling my cancer journey has been my spiritual journey and both have evolved.
The Church is corrupt. We have seen it time and again. Sure there are pockets of wonderful churches and believers doing wonderful things. I'm not throwing the baby out with the bath water; i have just come to a greater clarity of the role of a church in my life. I have the same feeling about our government--it's corrupt (both sides donkeys and elephants). But, knowing this full well, I pay my taxes, follow the laws etc etc. I do have fellowship with believers--just not the "typical" Roman style sit in pews looking at an altar listening to the service predominated by men in churches run by men.
But, I am planning on going back to the church of my childhood when I move next year back to my hometown. You see, when I "became a Christian" (alright, dare I say, Born Again) i was taught that the church of my youth, my infant baptism, my confirmation in the Episcopal church, was not "Christian" and not spirit-filled. So in order to really be "saved" I had to say certain words, yada yada yada. Looking back on those early years, all i can say is, How Arrogant!
I bought it hook line and sinker. But 8 years ago (just a couple months before my dx) I started to Wake Up and look around and really question the commonly held beliefs that we were being fed weekly. I just can't go there anymore. God has taken me to a deeper place of acceptance and compassion for those I used to deem Unsaved. I no longer can say with certainty and pass final judgment on others if they're going to heaven or not. It's almost as if I have been deprogrammed from the cult-like jargon of evangelicals, and that happened when we left our missionary farm and moved to the North Woods where I communed with God only and listened to Him only. It was actually by leaving the church that I found my deeper understanding of how HUGE God is and how tiny we are, but all too often we make God tiny and the church huge. I am a Child of God and that is enough. Truly enough. But I don't believe anymore that I am a child of God b/c I invited Jesus into my heart 27 years ago.
I liken it to leaving a dysfunctional alcoholic relationship. When you're in the thick of it you might not realize just how dysfunctional it is. Then when you get out of the craziness you first start to see it, then feel the calm, and then get stronger to deal with the dysfunction. That's where I feel I'm at--the place where I can go back with my eyes wide open and a whole lot more awareness of where God is (everywhere--even in the Episcopal church) and what the church is.
Does any of this make sense to you?
I had to get out of it, erase the dogma, and now can go back with a clean open slate of enlightenment.
Well, I surely put it all out there on this one.
I am tempted to hit the delete button! HA! :-)
peace, emily
Hi Emily,
I'm glad you didn't hit the delete button! I enjoy reading what you have to say.
I like that you're searching and looking for new ways to embrace God- even in the Episcopal church of your hometown, as you said. I do enjoy and understand what you write about and I'm glad we're able to freely share our beliefs and feelings.
Take care, Emily-
Lisa0 -
No, you're welcome Donnadonnare said:You're welcome!
Thank you Phil - for starting such an interesting thread!
Donna
I get tired of cancer talk at times. I find it interesting to hear what others think about this. It's sort of like when someone tells you their dreams, they can be something you can relate to or something very foreign.
-phil0 -
Me too. Phil ....PhillieG said:No, you're welcome Donna
I get tired of cancer talk at times. I find it interesting to hear what others think about this. It's sort of like when someone tells you their dreams, they can be something you can relate to or something very foreign.
-phil
and I have only been at this since May 28, so I can imagine how you must feel at times.
Peace,
Donna0 -
Thoughts on angels, God, and spirit guideswhichwitch said:I think we have angels and
I think we have angels and also a guide with us in this life and they are all around us. I beleive in our love ones able to commucation with us after they pass on. I beleive their is a higher plane of life and we are here to help us move on to become better loving and caring. Yes, God is all around us too. We have a lot of support from the spirit world. Hope I don't sound crazy, I have a hard time putting thoughts into words. Am I making any since to anybody??
Hi Whichwitch,
No, I certainly don't think you're crazy. As a Christian, I believe that there are many spiritual beings around us- angels, if you will. I also do believe the account in Genesis that there really was a good vs. evil "war" at the beginning of time. The angels (who I believe were all created by God), became divided. Some of the angels joined the side of the One who went against the Creator. Basically, I'm talking "the devil" or whatever he might be referred to. Those who sided with him in this heavenly battle stayed loyal to him and were sent down to earth to be with him. Basically, Satan "the devil" and his angels "the demons" started off in heaven but felt like making a lot of mischief- basically by usurping the power of the God the Father/Creator. Lots has been written about this in the bible about that instance and about how Satan now roams about on earth and sends his angels (demons) all around us (as God send HIS angels all around us, as well).
Interestingly, humans normally portray the devil as ugly, green, redhorned, etc. The Bible only refers to his heart and makeup as horrible- it refers to his appearance as quite lovely. Satan is called "The Morning Star" in a couple of instances and I believe even "the beautiful one". This is a being who could easily deceive people into thinking he's real God or one of God's angels- he is the deceiver and also referred to as "The Father of Lies".
From the many readings I've done on angels and different beliefs of angels, I believe that many people have experienced sightings and/or interactions with angels. This can be very deceiving because, as I mentioned above, they would appear as beautiful, not scary or ugly. WHICH angels were they seeing? That's the question. The Bible says to know if an angelic being is from God the Father, that angel will always profess that Jesus is Lord. That angel will also never allow worship of him/itself (also interesting to note- angels referred to by name in the Bible are always male, not females with glowing golden hair. They're strong, and full of almost blinding light. There are also cherubs and seraphim described as types of angels- beings looking very unhuman like). I don't believe there's any instances of those kinds of angels making appearances to humans- usually it was a strong male looking angel. Interesting how the Christmas cards all feature chubby babies with halos or a beautiful female angel on top of the tree- these are actually all inaccurate portrayals on angels. Angels of God who allow people to bow down before them always tell the people back to "I am just a creation- do not worship me- worship only God". In the book of Revelation, an angel of God first appears to the apostle John (who was receiving the revelation, or vision) John was so awed by the light and beauty of this angel, that he began to bow down to him in worship. The angel replied, "No, do not do it- worship only God". An Angel who accepts human worship is NOT from God the Father. I have a friend who brought me a book on praying to angels when she found out I had cancer. She was very well meaning and said she "knew it must be Christian because her mother in law gave her the book and her mother in law attends the Methodist church". I felt kind of awkward, but thanked her for her thoughtfulness, but I told her "I know you mean well, but I just don't believe in praying to angels- the Bible clearly states angels are not to be prayed to." She was a little huffy and I then felt bad that I even said anything at all. You know- it took a couple of months, but she brought that conversation up to me lately, and told me that she thought about it, prayed about, and came to the conclusion that she now agrees with me on not praying to angels.
I know it is the belief of some that they can have a "spirit guide". Although I have not directly experienced such a thing myself (unless you call God's Holy Spirit a spirit guide- I do- but it's not what most people are referring to when they refer to their "spirit guide"- most of people that refer to spirit guides are in "new age" religions, wicca, or paganism). From what I've read (from three people who went through this and then later wrote about their experiences), their "spirit guides" actually physically inhabited their bodies- even talked to them and guided them in positive ways... for a while... after a while the "spirit guide" reveals its true character, shaped by the one he is loyal to- Satan, and evil, very scary things started happening to these particular people. It was finally the intervention of a good friend (in two of these cases- I don't know the outcome of the third)- anyhow, a good friend intervened on behalf of their friends and brought the Lord Jesus Christ into their lives, who was able to accurately and forever send all these "guides" away.
I, personally, like to repeat a certain Bible verse when I feel afraid of influences of the Evil One (Satan and/or his demon-angels)... "Greater is He who is in me, than he who is in the world- God is greater". (referring to "he who is in the world" as Satan).
Okay- some long rambling here & now you may all think I'm kooky, but it's out there- that's what I believe.
Lisa0 -
Hi Lisalisa42 said:question
Hi Phil,
Not trying to put anyone down, but a comment on the statement "There are no right or wrong answers, it's just what each of us believes." If that's truly a correct statement, well- I don't know how it could really be a true statement. If there's no absolutes of right and wrong, then how can there be any order? One could say that about our society and about our rules and laws. Maybe what I think is a good law, someone else wouldn't agree with. I wonder about the "Coexist" bumper sticker that's around a lot too. The idea is nice- that we can all get along together and appreciate and respect each other's beliefs. I get it, I do. BUT... if everyone's right, then NO ONE's right! I guess the idea is just that so many people don't understand each others' beliefs, so no one wants to be disrespectful and tell others they don't believe the same as them. If I really believe Jesus' words in the new testament, "No one comes to the Father, but through me" (which I do), then I guess I'm admitting that I really do not believe there are other paths to God other than through his son Jesus. I know that right there is what makes so many people upset and that's what makes so many Christians seem uppity and intolerant. I'm NOT trying to be intolerant (as I do examine what I believe quite often and am willing to try to look at things in different ways), but I will admit that I really do believe the quote above from Jesus- He is the only way- that's what I believe.
Not trying to engage anyone in an arguement here, really- just noting the irony of the the "Coexist" mentality- unless people's faith is fairly watered down, it's really not easy to believe "everyone's right". I guess it's just a matter of getting along without telling others what you believe. Jesus also said, however, for us to go into all the world preaching and sharing the news of Jesus Christ. Following that command from Jesus will definitely put me at odds with the "respect and don't offend others with your beliefs" mentality. Jesus was offensive to the religious leaders in his day- he preached to them and called them on their mistakes. I feel like, if I keep my mouth shut and don't try to share the news with others how I believe Jesus loves them and is offering them a relationship with Him and eternal life with him- then I wouldn't be living out my faith.
One could say, perhaps, the same thing about Muslims who follow their doctrine of jihad. Of course, the huge difference is that one is very evil and destructive and the other is out of love and concern for the salvation of others.
My thoughts on the "there is no right or wrong" thought. Anyhow- there's my rambling thoughts for the day, for what they're worth!
Lisa
I wasn't clear on my no right or wrong statement. There are certainly things that are right or wrong as far as living in society goes. I just meant that as far as religion and religious or non-religious beliefs go, there is no right or wrong answer in my opinion.
There are any number of possibilities as to what "the truth".
Lisa, I hope that I clarified my initial statement.
-p0
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