Joe,

beween Phil's questions, and your answers, I feel that I'm in company that is far froim humble.

Can I quote you on 'If I should go before you...'? Is it yours originally? Maybe too often used to know, but I've never heard it before. Very good.

Always a pleasure :)

AussieMaddie

That, Phil, is just a Yamaha model CJ-838Sii. A friend GAVE it to me, many moons ago, and it surplanted my other guitars as my favorite. The giving of it is a rich story in its own right.

I am picking it back up after a lengthy hiatus. And I am enjoying it. I am discovering artists I should have known about 30 years ago, some of whom I knew but paid no attention to, others that are complete revelations, and just like a babe in toyland with some of this.

Recently, while picking through some Guy Clark stuff, my wife commented that I sounded like I used to (prior to the tongue/neck surgery in 05). I suppose that that was an attempt at a morale boost, but even I thought I was getting it, so who knows.

Take care,

Joe

This shouldn't be a place for judgment or ridicule about someone's beliefs. There may be some dialog like Joe and I had and I think/hope that all will respect this and engage in it if they want to and also feel free to say "it's my belief and that's that". Some of the folks that I would LOVE to visit here have not but that is their choice or maybe they are not aware of this part of the site.

Thanks for sharing Lisa.
-phil

Hi Lisa,
I respect your Traditional Christian beliefs and fundamentally believe in the same things as you. I do prefer to believe that there are many more exceptions to the rules than you however.
The Bible is full of Parables, verses subject to interpretation, many verses are more nuanced than others, and some more obscure than others as to their true meanings. Literal explanations using today's modern languages tend to miss the point or lose the intent of the words as they were written. I suspect that's the reason there are so many Churches that differ so greatly in their basic beliefs, traditions, and teachings.
I have personally had several Spiritual Awakenings, or Experiences with a Higher Power much greater than my own, in my lifetime. The first was nearly 45 years ago, the last as recently as 2 months ago, leaving me absolutely convinced that there is indeed a God, that he is all powerful, knowing, and good, and that he can and does indeed intercede in our lives, most often subtly, but occasionally with all the subtly of a trip out behind the barn leaving you with no doubt as to what he wants you to do, or not do, as the case may be .
DennisR

RE, thanks for posting your thoughts. I've had so many more unexplainable things happen to me since I was diagnosed. It's like I'm tuned into something that I wasn't before. I do not feel my is from "above" but that is not to say that it isn't. It could be and I just choose to read it as some telepathic (or telepathetic) happening.

The best to you too and again, thanks for sharing.
-phil

Hey Phil, saw your cloud photo's posted two of my own for you to check out. Enjoy your weekend.

RE

I checked them out and made a comment. Very wonderful, thanks.
I think we often overlook people's expressions page on this site.

Thank you for your response KC
-phil

the mouths of babes...

Did I scare everyone away? Did everyone go home? Where is everyone? :-)

I didn't mean to sound preachy.

It's slow here sometimes. Ok, I'll tell you about a dream I had. In a nutshell I was in this building with archways and I was afraid of the giant dinosaur that roamed around outside. I was sent to earth to bring back the cake. While on earth I had a lot of trouble and problems and didn't bring back the cake. I was afraid the lady that sent me would make me go again so I said 'so-and-so' was coming to the party and she could bring the cake. The lady accepted this and I was happy and went to dance with the little dinosaurs who shared the building. I was no longer afraid of the giant one but watchful to stay out of its way. The little dinosaurs were no longer afraid of the big one either and we all danced together.

Hi Emily,

I don't think you sounded preachy- this board is for sharing our thoughts and beliefs! I'm sure you well remember all of our exchanges a few months back! :) Actually, much of what you just shared above I feel a little differently about now than when we had our exchanges a few months back. Life is an ongoing journey, isn't it?! I do believe, though, when Jesus said, "It is finished", when he died on the cross, that was referring to his life and work on earth. Yes, he did pay the price for us right then and there, so yes, that part was finished. Jesus did say while he was on earth, however, that "No one comes to the Father, but through me". I don't believe we need to work our way into heaven by our good deeds, works, hoops to jump through, etc., as many people get hung up on. Remember, Jesus had told Nicodeum in John 3:3, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." In John 3:18, it says,"Whoever believes in himis not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son". I believe when we talked months ago about much of this, our difference was on whether or not you have to pray to receive Jesus. I think, with what I hear you saying today, that our difference may really be more just semantics, not neccessarily a true difference. Romans 10:9 says, "If you confess with your mouth 'Jesus is Lord' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." As you mentioned the thief on the cross, he was saved because at that moment he believed.
Christians get so caught up in their "Christian lingo", that many have a very hard time getting past the lingo and what it actually means, I believe. The "four spiritual laws" are most definitely Biblically based, but these "laws" themselves are not mentioned in the Bible. Praying to confess our sins and then receive Jesus into our heart and lives is an act of "confessing with our mouth". It is merely believing, then acting upon that belief.

Emily, the one thought I have for you, though, is to not give up completely on going to church! Just because you have gotten weird vibes from people at church isn't a reason to "throw out the baby with the bathwater", so to speak! We are also commanded to worship and have fellowship with other believers. Remember, "where two or three are gathered in My name, there I am among the midst of them". Now that's certainly not to say that He isn't present for us when we pray alone, but I think it's representative of how God believes it's important to also gather together and worship in tandem with other believers. I know that can definitely be done in ways other than attending church on Sunday mornings, but I really believe that we should be attending a church to worship together and be spiritually fed. Now, if the church you were attending wasn't doing that for you, then I'd recommend searching for a new church. You have so much to offer as a kind, loving person, that I believe you could bring a lot to another church body of believers. Yes, as you said, it was the "religious" folks that Jesus used to get so upset at! More so than nonbelievers- nonbelievers had an excuse- the church leaders didn't! But just remember that even people who are Christians or even church leaders are just imperfect people like everyone else. We're all going through this adventure in life as believers together.

Take care Emily- know, also, that I'm continuing to pray for your son's full recovery from his bike accident and for your strept infection also (I commented on that in your colorectal board thread).

Lisa :)

Hi Lisa,

Well, I'm not really where you are in the belief factor these days. I was there years ago so I really understand where you're coming from and what you're saying. But paralleling my cancer journey has been my spiritual journey and both have evolved.

The Church is corrupt. We have seen it time and again. Sure there are pockets of wonderful churches and believers doing wonderful things. I'm not throwing the baby out with the bath water; i have just come to a greater clarity of the role of a church in my life. I have the same feeling about our government--it's corrupt (both sides donkeys and elephants). But, knowing this full well, I pay my taxes, follow the laws etc etc. I do have fellowship with believers--just not the "typical" Roman style sit in pews looking at an altar listening to the service predominated by men in churches run by men.

But, I am planning on going back to the church of my childhood when I move next year back to my hometown. You see, when I "became a Christian" (alright, dare I say, Born Again) i was taught that the church of my youth, my infant baptism, my confirmation in the Episcopal church, was not "Christian" and not spirit-filled. So in order to really be "saved" I had to say certain words, yada yada yada. Looking back on those early years, all i can say is, How Arrogant!

I bought it hook line and sinker. But 8 years ago (just a couple months before my dx) I started to Wake Up and look around and really question the commonly held beliefs that we were being fed weekly. I just can't go there anymore. God has taken me to a deeper place of acceptance and compassion for those I used to deem Unsaved. I no longer can say with certainty and pass final judgment on others if they're going to heaven or not. It's almost as if I have been deprogrammed from the cult-like jargon of evangelicals, and that happened when we left our missionary farm and moved to the North Woods where I communed with God only and listened to Him only. It was actually by leaving the church that I found my deeper understanding of how HUGE God is and how tiny we are, but all too often we make God tiny and the church huge. I am a Child of God and that is enough. Truly enough. But I don't believe anymore that I am a child of God b/c I invited Jesus into my heart 27 years ago.

I liken it to leaving a dysfunctional alcoholic relationship. When you're in the thick of it you might not realize just how dysfunctional it is. Then when you get out of the craziness you first start to see it, then feel the calm, and then get stronger to deal with the dysfunction. That's where I feel I'm at--the place where I can go back with my eyes wide open and a whole lot more awareness of where God is (everywhere--even in the Episcopal church) and what the church is.

Does any of this make sense to you?

I had to get out of it, erase the dogma, and now can go back with a clean open slate of enlightenment.

Well, I surely put it all out there on this one.

I am tempted to hit the delete button! HA! :-)

peace, emily

Hi Emily,

I'm glad you didn't hit the delete button! :) I enjoy reading what you have to say.
I like that you're searching and looking for new ways to embrace God- even in the Episcopal church of your hometown, as you said. I do enjoy and understand what you write about and I'm glad we're able to freely share our beliefs and feelings.

Take care, Emily-

Lisa

I place my faith in Jesus Christ alone.

See ya some day in Heaven sister!

Blessings and peace to everyone!!!

Sylvia

Phil, your right most people are of Christian faith that have answered your question. But I'm here to tell you my beliefs,and I'm not Christian, but Jewish, or rather raised that way. I don't practice any religion and I'm married to a Christian. I believe we all came into this world the same way and we're all leaving the same way. I also don't believe in heaven and hell. I believe that we all have guardian angels looking out for us and helping to guide us thru our lives,and when we die it's just our bodies that cease to exist. Our spirits are still around and just maybe we are there to help someone else thru their journey.

I don't judge anyone else for what they believe, but I once worked for someone who was a Born Again Christian. I remember him telling me that I would never get into heaven because I didn't believe in Jesus and he didn't understand how I can believe in God, but not in his son.He made me quite angry,not because he said I would never get into heaven,but because he was being judgemental.

Being a cancer survivor has made me look at things from all angles and I believe it has made me a better person. I like knowing that I can possibly help someone else while I'm still here, but I like to also think that after I'm gone that I can still be of some help to someone.

You are all in my thoughts for long and healthy lives! Wendy

You certainly do not sound any crazier than the rest of us.
I'm not sure if I answered your question but you are in good company ;-)
There are no right or wrong answers, it's just what each of us believes. I do not know of anyone who died, went wherever, and can came back to tell everyone what, if anything, happened.

Thanks for taking the time to comment WW
-phil

Hi Phil,

Not trying to put anyone down, but a comment on the statement "There are no right or wrong answers, it's just what each of us believes." If that's truly a correct statement, well- I don't know how it could really be a true statement. If there's no absolutes of right and wrong, then how can there be any order? One could say that about our society and about our rules and laws. Maybe what I think is a good law, someone else wouldn't agree with. I wonder about the "Coexist" bumper sticker that's around a lot too. The idea is nice- that we can all get along together and appreciate and respect each other's beliefs. I get it, I do. BUT... if everyone's right, then NO ONE's right! I guess the idea is just that so many people don't understand each others' beliefs, so no one wants to be disrespectful and tell others they don't believe the same as them. If I really believe Jesus' words in the new testament, "No one comes to the Father, but through me" (which I do), then I guess I'm admitting that I really do not believe there are other paths to God other than through his son Jesus. I know that right there is what makes so many people upset and that's what makes so many Christians seem uppity and intolerant. I'm NOT trying to be intolerant (as I do examine what I believe quite often and am willing to try to look at things in different ways), but I will admit that I really do believe the quote above from Jesus- He is the only way- that's what I believe.

Not trying to engage anyone in an arguement here, really- just noting the irony of the the "Coexist" mentality- unless people's faith is fairly watered down, it's really not easy to believe "everyone's right". I guess it's just a matter of getting along without telling others what you believe. Jesus also said, however, for us to go into all the world preaching and sharing the news of Jesus Christ. Following that command from Jesus will definitely put me at odds with the "respect and don't offend others with your beliefs" mentality. Jesus was offensive to the religious leaders in his day- he preached to them and called them on their mistakes. I feel like, if I keep my mouth shut and don't try to share the news with others how I believe Jesus loves them and is offering them a relationship with Him and eternal life with him- then I wouldn't be living out my faith.

One could say, perhaps, the same thing about Muslims who follow their doctrine of jihad. Of course, the huge difference is that one is very evil and destructive and the other is out of love and concern for the salvation of others.

My thoughts on the "there is no right or wrong" thought. Anyhow- there's my rambling thoughts for the day, for what they're worth!

Lisa

Lisa,

I have great respect for your beliefs. I do. And I appreciate that your belief is of sufficient strength and conviction that you are willing to stand up, as it were, in this 'room' and say, as Jesus purportedly did among the marketeers in the temple, "Hey, there is something wrong with this picture!"

But, I would offer that belief and tolerance do not have to be mutually exclusive. I think you have expressed as much yourself, in previous posts.

Leaving that aside, getting to the nut of the issue, to suggest that Islam is different than Christianity because Islam, or certain sects within, promote jihad while Christianity does not, is a gross misunderstanding about the history of the world.

I would venture to say that it is not cancer, it is not heart disease, it is not some exotic flu, it is not a plague, it is not even Islam, Hindusim or Bhuddism, that has killed the most people in the last 2000+ years but Christianity.

Look it up.

As for your obviously strident and strong beliefs, Lisa, I admire, even envy them, I do. I wish that I knew with certainty where I will go when this life ends. Regrettably, for me, I am not there, and am not certain I will ever get there. I tend to be a person of logic and rationality. And even the people of the cloth that I have talked to agree that belief requires a leap of faith.

True faith requires a leap beyond what is rational. That is not to say that it is wrong, but simply that it cannot simply be preached, not at least to anyone of any degree of intelligence. It requires a leap beyond what we can know rationally. It requires an irrational belief in the existence of a supreme existence.

I am not disparaging you, Lisa, before you begin to pound away on your keyboard. Some of the greatest thinkers of all time, including some of the greatest thinkers of current and recent times are (or were), if not Christians, at least deists.

So, it is with admitted hubris that I maintain my status as an agnostic, an unknower, as I like to put it. I simply do not know.

Regarding what Jesus did or did not do, it could be argued that the books of the second bible, if you will, (as well as those of the first, now that I think about it) were put together by minstrels of a sort.

But I will let that lay where it is, brought up only to point out that your belief, while ardent and true, is not based on facts, but the words of human beings from a time of great superstition. Your beliefs are irrational.

I admire your honesty and conviction.

Take care,

Joe

Hey Joe,

Your statement that Christianity has killed more people than any other cause or religion is incorrect and little more than just Atheistic Dogma itself. There is no proof whatsoever that your statement is a true fact and it's actually just something Atheists/Agnostics like to say when they're attempting to make their illogical argument against Christianity.
Look it up.
If Christians are indeed such Fearful, murderous people as you like to believe, I'm surprised Atheists have the courage to attack them so readily, instead of showing the respect (fear) that their complete absense of any comment that may upset a Muslim, for instance, would appear to show at face value. Of Course, Muslims DO have a nasty habit of cutting off people's heads when someone criticizes their Religion. I guess they've never even heard of a Misdemeanor, and I suspect that may have something do do with the deafening silence from the non- believers.

Chairman Mao was most likely an Atheist, (I doubt any Religion would claim him,) and he killed some 50 million people in the few years he was in power, I suspect that's more people than even existed during biblical times.

DennisR

Dennis, thank you for your observations.

Please be advised that it is illogical to lump athiests and agnostics in the same clay. Athiests are believers, after all, believers in the non-existence of a greater power, while agnostics, by the definition I am familiar with, are non-believers, unknowers. I am on record, as an agnostic, in expressing envy of those who do believe and in acknowledging that those folks, the believers, have at least the slender blade of irrationality, the leap of faith, to support their belief, while athiests have nothing of the sort.

I have never, to my knowledge, attempted to make an 'illogical argument against Christianity."

Look it up.

Your notion that respect and fear are one and the same troubles me. I hope that if you own dogs, that if you have children, this is not your credo with respect to them.

Beyond that, my statement that Christianity is the biggest killer of people in history is supported by history if not by your personal preacher. 'Biblical times', for the most part, precedes Christianity, whether you are aware of that or not. In the time since the advent of Christianity, much has been done in its name to torture and to kill. Just for starters, look up the Crusades, look up the Spanish Inquisition. (It seems that Christians have also had an urge, from time to time, to cut off people's heads, among other wonderful efforts to convert the unconverted.)

All of that said, I appreciate your viewpoint, and am most interested in your comment, here and elsewhere, that you have read "many of the greatest Theologians, Psychologists, Philosophers, and Scientists". Can you please list them along with some of their works. I need to catch up on my reading in that regard and would really enjoy surveying your particular choices.

Thanks in advance,

Joe

Hey Joe,
How's it going? I only lump the two together when they use the same Dogma to make a point.
No offense meant. I'm sure there were many atrocities committed during the periods you mention, but there is little or no Empirical evidence to support the claim that MORE deaths have been caused by Christianity than any other Religion or belief.
Look up the period before the Crusades when the tables were turned.
Besides, as I like to say, We don't do that anymore...while others do.
As far as Respect and Fear are concerned, the point was to illustrate that people, especially MSM, are hiding behind respect for people's beliefs when it comes to the Muslim Religion, when in fact they are afraid to be critical. Note the recent recantations of cartoons, books, and news items etc that are either, not being printed, or are not being circulated. I suspect it's because of fear, not respect, and they hardly mean the same thing.
I learned from my dog trainer that, "If you treat your dog like a person, it will treat you like a Dog".
My studies of Philosophy and Psychologists are a work in progress, I average reading 2 or three books a week, not all related to the subject. However, if you have an Author in mind whose views you share, perhaps you'd be willing to share that info and I'll be sure to attempt it. Even this Old Dog can learn new tricks.
Besides, Joe, it's all just banter (between you and I) and I suspect we both tend to gravitate towards the teachings or writings of those that tend to validate what we already believe in anyway because of the way we were raised.
I do appreciate your point of view however, and I've learned a few new things just from this short discussion, also my Sister in Law was a PHD of Psychology and we had many spirited discussions along these lines, she was also a dedicated Liberal thinker, while I'm just the opposite. The one thing I noticed was that she found grey areas in everything I believed in, but none in her own beliefs. Well she had a PHD, after all.
DennisR

I wasn't clear on my no right or wrong statement. There are certainly things that are right or wrong as far as living in society goes. I just meant that as far as religion and religious or non-religious beliefs go, there is no right or wrong answer in my opinion.
There are any number of possibilities as to what "the truth".

Lisa, I hope that I clarified my initial statement.
-p

But...I think she is trying to say that there is indeed a right and a wrong, if you BELIEVE. If you BELIEVE, there is most definitely a right, a certainty in what is right, just as there is a wrong, and a certainty in what is wrong.

This is inherent in belief: it is not logical, it is not rational, it just IS. And when it IS, it is what it is: RIGHT.

To submit that 'there is no right or wrong answer', from Lisa's point of view, is to admit that one's convictions are not well-grounded in absolute faith. It is contradictory to all that she stands for.

That bit of philosophy aside, I would suppose what you originally meant was that you hope in this post, and in this particular board, people can accept the views of one another without name-calling and self-righteousness, which seems to be the case, rather pleasantly surprisingly, so far.

Just saying.

Now that I've put words in both of your mouths, I will quit :).

Take care,

Joe

Yes, whichwitch, I believe that too.

The day my sister died (she was 33 and i was 30) I definitely felt her spirit presence around me. It was very cool and very strong. After she died I also felt that she visited me in my dream world very strongly. I believe she brought me messages. I have a kinda cool story about that but for another time.

I know for a fact that we have angels since one of them woke my husband up when he fell asleep driving back from CO. The rest of us (4 kids and I) were all asleep and someone YELLED his name loudly and woke him up as he was leaving the road.

Just one example.

The rocks will cry out. God IS all around us and I find him the most in my favorite place next to our creek in our woods where my in-laws and pets are buried. Peace and tranquility.

Hey Phil! Where you been?

peace, emily

I've been here and, I've been there and, I've been in between...

I've had simular experiences. I was raised in a strict church but left because it didn't make sense. I believe if you ask from your soul, you will be answered. It happened to me. I've also been answered by another who had passed over in a dream.

Love all that you wrote. Nowhere do I feel a more spiritual presence as I do in nature. The peace and tranquility is inspiring. I feel such negative "vibes" when I attend a church service.

Hi Emily,
I have also had numerous "visitations" from some of those who have passed on, No, I've never heard voices or seen appiritions, but clear messages have been sent in my dreams, some of which made me incredibly sad like in premonitions of impending deaths, others that relieved my worries about what happened to to loved ones when they passed on and put my mind at ease.
I used to be concerned that this phenomena was happening to me, but now I just accept it and consider it some sort of dubious blessing.
I have spent some time researching this subject and found that many of the greatest Theologians, Psychologists, Philosophers, and Scientists have also experienced this or similar episodes in their own lives and they were unable to explain it either, but generally leaned towards the existance of Higher Powers and Souls. Works for me!
DennisR

Hi Emily,
I have also had numerous "visitations" from some of those who have passed on, No, I've never heard voices or seen appiritions, but clear messages have been sent in my dreams, some of which made me incredibly sad like in premonitions of impending deaths, others that relieved my worries about what happened to to loved ones when they passed on and put my mind at ease.
I used to be concerned that this phenomena was happening to me, but now I just accept it and consider it some sort of dubious blessing.
I have spent some time researching this subject and found that many of the greatest Theologians, Psychologists, Philosophers, and Scientists have also experienced this or similar episodes in their own lives and they were unable to explain it either, but generally leaned towards the existance of Higher Powers and Souls. Works for me!
DennisR

Hi Whichwitch,

No, I certainly don't think you're crazy. As a Christian, I believe that there are many spiritual beings around us- angels, if you will. I also do believe the account in Genesis that there really was a good vs. evil "war" at the beginning of time. The angels (who I believe were all created by God), became divided. Some of the angels joined the side of the One who went against the Creator. Basically, I'm talking "the devil" or whatever he might be referred to. Those who sided with him in this heavenly battle stayed loyal to him and were sent down to earth to be with him. Basically, Satan "the devil" and his angels "the demons" started off in heaven but felt like making a lot of mischief- basically by usurping the power of the God the Father/Creator. Lots has been written about this in the bible about that instance and about how Satan now roams about on earth and sends his angels (demons) all around us (as God send HIS angels all around us, as well).
Interestingly, humans normally portray the devil as ugly, green, redhorned, etc. The Bible only refers to his heart and makeup as horrible- it refers to his appearance as quite lovely. Satan is called "The Morning Star" in a couple of instances and I believe even "the beautiful one". This is a being who could easily deceive people into thinking he's real God or one of God's angels- he is the deceiver and also referred to as "The Father of Lies".

From the many readings I've done on angels and different beliefs of angels, I believe that many people have experienced sightings and/or interactions with angels. This can be very deceiving because, as I mentioned above, they would appear as beautiful, not scary or ugly. WHICH angels were they seeing? That's the question. The Bible says to know if an angelic being is from God the Father, that angel will always profess that Jesus is Lord. That angel will also never allow worship of him/itself (also interesting to note- angels referred to by name in the Bible are always male, not females with glowing golden hair. They're strong, and full of almost blinding light. There are also cherubs and seraphim described as types of angels- beings looking very unhuman like). I don't believe there's any instances of those kinds of angels making appearances to humans- usually it was a strong male looking angel. Interesting how the Christmas cards all feature chubby babies with halos or a beautiful female angel on top of the tree- these are actually all inaccurate portrayals on angels. Angels of God who allow people to bow down before them always tell the people back to "I am just a creation- do not worship me- worship only God". In the book of Revelation, an angel of God first appears to the apostle John (who was receiving the revelation, or vision) John was so awed by the light and beauty of this angel, that he began to bow down to him in worship. The angel replied, "No, do not do it- worship only God". An Angel who accepts human worship is NOT from God the Father. I have a friend who brought me a book on praying to angels when she found out I had cancer. She was very well meaning and said she "knew it must be Christian because her mother in law gave her the book and her mother in law attends the Methodist church". I felt kind of awkward, but thanked her for her thoughtfulness, but I told her "I know you mean well, but I just don't believe in praying to angels- the Bible clearly states angels are not to be prayed to." She was a little huffy and I then felt bad that I even said anything at all. You know- it took a couple of months, but she brought that conversation up to me lately, and told me that she thought about it, prayed about, and came to the conclusion that she now agrees with me on not praying to angels.
I know it is the belief of some that they can have a "spirit guide". Although I have not directly experienced such a thing myself (unless you call God's Holy Spirit a spirit guide- I do- but it's not what most people are referring to when they refer to their "spirit guide"- most of people that refer to spirit guides are in "new age" religions, wicca, or paganism). From what I've read (from three people who went through this and then later wrote about their experiences), their "spirit guides" actually physically inhabited their bodies- even talked to them and guided them in positive ways... for a while... after a while the "spirit guide" reveals its true character, shaped by the one he is loyal to- Satan, and evil, very scary things started happening to these particular people. It was finally the intervention of a good friend (in two of these cases- I don't know the outcome of the third)- anyhow, a good friend intervened on behalf of their friends and brought the Lord Jesus Christ into their lives, who was able to accurately and forever send all these "guides" away.

I, personally, like to repeat a certain Bible verse when I feel afraid of influences of the Evil One (Satan and/or his demon-angels)... "Greater is He who is in me, than he who is in the world- God is greater". (referring to "he who is in the world" as Satan).

Okay- some long rambling here & now you may all think I'm kooky, but it's out there- that's what I believe.

Lisa

As one who does not believe in God I believe that we all possess both qualities in us. Good and Evil. We all have the ability to choose either. I do not believe that God or Satan is pulling our stings so to speak to have us act a certain way. Everyone is capable of being either nice or not nice. There is no second party involved and our destinies are not mapped out.

I also believe that there are forces of energy which possibly as those who have passed on that can become present to us in this state of being.

Reading your post Lisa just reminds me so much of the constant struggle of Good vs Evil that is found in all religions for all of mankind. It's even in our modern myths like Harry Potter or Star Wars and the older metaphors found in the bible.

Here are a few quotes by Joseph Campbell who wrote a lot about myths and religion and their importance to mankind throughout the years. A very interesting man.

"Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble."

"Life is without meaning. You bring the meaning to it. The meaning of life is whatever you ascribe it to be. Being alive is the meaning."
Joseph Campbell

Quickly, kudos to both Lisa and Phil for some rather enlightening commentary or, rather more precisely, commentary yielding enlightenment. It is now clear to me, for one thing, that my use of the words theism (or deism or pantheism), agnosticism and atheism require some refinement, largely because of the introduction of Campbell and his 'Masks of God' contemplations into consideration, but also because of Lisa's rather lengthy but perhaps erroneous exposition about the hierarchy of angels within Christian theology.

I applaud both of you for your honesty, integrity and erudition. I never expected anything like this from this board or from this post, frankly. As another respondent suggested, it is time to play!

I'll be back. (I want to write my words down where I can edit them carefully before posting them, and this site does not afford that 'luxury' :)).

Take care,

Joe

It's always refreshing to hear from you. I know I have to go back to a previous email and also to look at your expressions page.

Thanks for your comments. I am very happy that this addition to the cancer forum has been as successful as it has been. Who would have thought people would have ventured over here. Now if we could only get some others over, but they might spoil the play time
-phil

Lisa, that is one heckuva lesson in 'angelology' or whatever it is called. It compelled me to have a look at some of the history and philosophy and, yes, mythology, surrounding angels and demons.

From that reading, I gathered the following:

Despite what modern preachers and priests might say, if you look at the bibles themselves (Old and New) you are likely to find that the first references to the casting out of angels is due to pride rather than a battle between good and evil.

A great deal of what it is represented in the bibles with respect to angels is apparently directly derivative of earlier, so-called pagan religions, those of the Babylonians, to name but one that apparently had a deep impact on the writings in the first bible.

With respect to Lucifer as Satan, there is some disagreement in ecumenical as well as historical circles about that. Lucifer does indeed translate as "Morning Star" and, thus, references into the bible to a falling angel are sometimes ascribed to Lucifer (morning star=falling star, I suppose, among other considerations, including, again, the pride factor).

Even so, the bible, in Revelations, if I recall correctly, describes 'the dragon' sweeping his tail through the sky and taking down so many stars in his fall. This would explain, perhaps, how the devil, Satan, has been seen as this 'ugly, green-horned, etc' sort of creature.

Interestingly, just to show where our information comes from, a Catholic pope in the 13th century apparently determined somehow that exactly 133 million, so many thousands, etc.,....down to single digits!!!, an exact number of angels were cast from heaven (which also, if the bible is to be believed re the numbers for and against the almighty, reveals the exact number of angels still in Heaven: twice that number!).

Re the seraphim and cherubs and so on, I remember this from catechism, but had to confirm it: the seraphim are the highest order of angel, and there are but four, sitting at the highest level, next to God. These are the 'powerful lights' you reference. The next level is occupied by cherubim, and then, of course, you get your 'mere' angels :).

Throw some archangels in there somewhere, somehow, and you have a mighty fine stew!

Please note the preponderance of the number three throughout Christianity: your Holy Trinity, your angelic strata, the duality of 3s that is the number of the beast, and even the nature of events in various bible stories.

Three is a powerful number in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic threesome.

As it turns out, three is a powerful number in MANY religions.

Which gets me to old Joe Campbell. Quite a character, quite a life! One HAS to respect someone who has gone to such trouble to explore and closely examine the religions of the world, as he did, to talk to people of varied cloth, if you will, from all around the world, and to come away from that respected and admired by many while at the same time sticking many of the beliefs and traditions he collected into a blender to develop a single rather coherent theory about religion and mythology.

And this is where I must distinguish my terms. To me, there are believers, there are non-believers (who are, ironically, also believers) and there are unknowers.

So:

Theists, deists, pantheists, these are all folks who believe in a higher power. Theists, like Christians and Jews, (to borrow from my favorite online dictionary: believe in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world; deism, again to borrow: a movement or system of thought advocating natural religion, emphasizing morality, and in the 18th century denying the interference of the Creator with the laws of the universe; and then pantheism, which I refer to, perhaps incorrectly, as the belief in many gods, who habituate the many objects of our nature, the wind, the sun, the plants, the animals, etc..

Agnostic: To me, this is an unknower. This is someone who DOES NOT KNOW.

Atheist: This is a believer, ironically enough, one who BELIEVES there is no god, there are no gods. I will state for the record that I find this belief system to be paradoxical, nonsensical: It requires an insinuation that one knows all there is to know in the entire universe and beyond.

So, to me, Campbell missed the boat slightly. He seems to be someone who believes in one or more higher powers, based on some sort of mythology and Jungian theory he has put together. But, there is great irony in this as well. He accepts no religion outright, or so it seems from limited reading, but chooses to incorporate Jung's ideas about primal memory with substantiation of repetition in various religions to come up with a solution, that is, that there is something, even if we can not say what it is.

I suspect that you, Phil, are in the same place, as are a great many others who divide themselves between 'believers but not religious' (how many times have i heard that?) and those who proclaim to be agnostic (in the sense with which I use it) but are not.

Sorry for the long and boring screed. Just had to work that out of me, to be sure I was where I thought I was. I am.

I am sure I have missed many points I wanted to make, much to communal delight :) but I will suggest that if you get a chance, one and all, read a short story by Harlan Ellison called Death Bird. It is sci-fi/fantasy from the 70s, but an excellent counterpoint to unlimited devotion to the word of the bible, really a rather humorous look, if you don't take yourself too seriously.

Take care, all who got to this point :),

Joe

Hey Phil,
Hey Phil, I believe it was Carl Jung who once wrote, "The World's First Religion was started when the World's First Con Artist met the World's first Fool".
I'm only mentioning this quote because I found it humorous, Carl was actually a believer, certainly not an Agnostic or an Atheist.
DennisR

Interesting that you mention Jung, Dennis, as Campbell might be considered a disciple of his, after a fashion, as both believed in archetypes and trans-cultural paradigms.

However, to say that Jung was a 'believer' seems to insinuate that he was a Christian, when, in fact, he was, like Campbell, respectful of the myriad religions and belief systems in our world at that time (which included hinduism, islam, and buddhism, among others).

He was, in fact, a theist/deist/pantheist, and insisted in his studies that much of what impacts us psychologically is older than organized religions which, themselves, are structured on those older totems.

Just saying.

Take care,

Joe

This is the link to a great article that gives the Bibles viewpoint to this question.

http://www.watchtower.org/e/200608b/article_01.htm

and thats only if you believe in what the Bible tells us...there is a certain number of angels, no more no less, they never die so they are never replaced.

Thanks for stopping by and sharing.
-phil

Hi,

while I don't like to align myself to a particular 'ism' (because I believe that 'isms' are created for the sole protection of beliefs over authentic experience), you beliefs are very similar to mine, which would be considered Spiritualist.

I believe what Teilhard de Chardin said:

'You are not a human being in search of a spiritual experience. You are a spiritual being immersed in a human experience.'

And, in believing that, I therefore cannot believe in death of 'us' since 'we' are spiritual. I can only believe in death as the change that takes place when the body returns to the natural elements from which it was derived - and the spirit moves on to learning more about what is real.

AussieMaddie

Oh Donna,

I LOVED your story about going to the psychic!

:-)

Sorry about your dad and your dog though.

peace, emily

My sister and I - whole family really - laugh every time we talk about it!! My dad was really a character and I come from a family of cut-ups. My sister and mom love going to card readers, psychics, etc., so my brothers are always asking them to ask my father for the winning lottery numbers! :-))) The weirdest/funniest part was that that is exactly what my dad would have said about my dog!!

So glad your son is okay!!

Donna

Great reply Donna. We share a lot of beliefs.
Thanks for posting.
-phil

Thank you Phil - for starting such an interesting thread!

Donna

I get tired of cancer talk at times. I find it interesting to hear what others think about this. It's sort of like when someone tells you their dreams, they can be something you can relate to or something very foreign.
-phil

and I have only been at this since May 28, so I can imagine how you must feel at times.

Peace,
Donna

Ok Phil, you said you like it when people tell you their dreams...

I've had many doozy dreams that were probably much more ocmplicated and meaningful, but here's a silly short one I had last night:

In my dream I was watering the brown spots in my backyard lawn (we live in Calif- water shortange and the sprinklers don't keep things watered enough). Anyhow, I was watering the lawn with the hose, when all of a sudden my bedroom dresser, which is normally is medium oak color, was green and was lying over the brown spot in the lawn. I was watering that brown spot and blinked when I noticed all of a sudden it turned green, but it was my dresser that was green lying on top of it.

Maybe it was the steroids I had in my chemo mix yesterday- haha!

Lisa

Lisa, that's cool. At least your lawn is green. We have had so much rain on the east coast it's not funny. Normally be July I can stop cutting the lawn or let it go a few weeks. Now it's every 5 days or so that I still have to cut it.
I wish that was a dream ;-)
-phil

If you are interested in dream interpretation there is a cool website to help. It's
www.dreammoods.com. It comes pretty close if you apply it to how you feel and the dream objects.

there is a haven because i plan on meeting up with angel there to continue our life.

michelle

This comment has been removed by the Moderator

This comment has been removed by the Moderator

Kep those coming, my God that's funny !!

....How could I miss this great thread? I never thinkn of looking here! I'm such a dummy!

I was raised Catholic, went to a Catholic school till 5th grade, church, all that, but not very practicing. I do believe in Jesus, and God, angels, Heaven and Hell, I believe in it all. There have too many experiences in my life that would be unexplainable, and there is no way our souls just die.

I will share a couple of things that happened to me....

After my father died, I had a dream that night, where he was laying in his casket, and when I went over to it, he sat up, and stretched his arms really wide, saying "Come give me one last hug before I move on" and I literally hugged him, crying in my dream, and when I woke up, I was still crying! I believe he came in my dream for that goodbye, it was so real.

Another time, when my grandmother died, the lights in my house blinked on and off 3 times, when I got the phone call from an aunt saying she died right at that time, it was very strange...too many deceased relatives that come in my dreams and talk to me, it just doesn't end.

I don't judge anyone their beliefs, everyone has their own opinion, I know my experiences may sound nutty, but in my heart, there is something out there after death, our bodies are just a shell, and when we die, our spirit goes free.

Glad to finally read other posts here...great views from everyone.

Hugssss!!
~Donna

Donna,

My brother committed suicide in '94. In September of 2006, the Illinois State Treasurer published a list of people with unclaimed assets with my brother's name among them. The hitch was the ability to connect him to the address posted, proving that he was the actual owner of the asset. Too much time had elapsed and most of my brother's legal documents featured subsequent addresses. I had given up hope of ever connecting him to the address where he resided with his ex, until one day in early November, when I was attempting to reach some old audio tapes on top of this box on the top shelf of my closet. The box fell, hitting me in the head, and falling open on the floor, revealing some of my brother's old photographs along with a manila envelope containing a copy of his divorce papers with the much needed address. I immediately scanned the document into my hard drive and sent a copy with an addendum letter to the State Treasurer's office. A dividend check, from the State Treasurer, in the amount of $500 arrived about three weeks later just in time for Christmas!

Our loved ones ARE with us ALWAYS!

Love and Courage!

Rick

Since you shared I will too. At my sister-in-laws funeral my husband felt her presence and thought, "What is it like on the other side?" We lived in a different state and our boys were older and we had left them home to continue in school. A few days later when we arrived home our youngest said he had a dream while we were gone. He said his aunt was in the dream and she told him she couldn't tell him what it was like there because it was against the rules. He told my husband this without knowing what happened or was thought at the church.

I love hearing these stories, because to me, it just shows that you must keep your faith, and you don't have to "See" to "Believe", I know in my heart we will see our families again, and be forever joined with no pain, or sickness again. Just Believe!

Hugsss!
~Donna

Ok here's mine:

Before my 33 yr old sister died she had a baby girl. The baby was 5 months old when my sister died. When I had this dream the baby was still less than a year old.

In my dream my sister and I are sitting on folding chairs in the open air and there is a stage set up. I think we're in the front row. There are people milling around but are of no consequence. She and I are sitting sideways facing each other and I have her daughter sitting on my lap. My sister is highly agitated and she's holding her daughter's hand pointing at the palm of her hand telling me over and over, "LOOK!! Look at what they've done to her hand!! LOOK!" I woke up knowing she was trying to tell me something.

That's the dream.

Many months later I am retelling this dream to one of my sister's best friends and roomie who stayed in contact with my niece and my BIL. The hair on the back of her neck stands up when I tell her this dream b/c she tells me that one night my BIL, with the baby, is at some friends' house and the baby grabbed a hot wire and burned the palm of her hand!!!!

Yeah. So you can be assured that I believe we get messages from the other side.

I had a bunch more dreams where my sister shows up but I don't think all of them had messages for me.

peace, emily

I love these stories also. This is why I know we go on to another 'something'.

Ok, I'll tell another. My Mom was staying with us several months and fell and broke both arms. I was in distress and that night lying on the sofa I prayed and asked why no one was helping me. I thought also that my guardian angel must be lazy. Then I asked why my sister-in-law couldn't help (the same one I told you about that appeared in my sons dream). That night I had a dream that I was in my parents house and I went into what looked like the kitchen with a refrigerator that wasn't cold. I looked again and you could see through the shelves to a dark area. My sister-in-law was there explaining to a man something. I couldn't hear them but she was gesturing.
Then she passed over to my side somehow and sadly frowned and shook her head and said, "You have to do it by yourself." and then a big voice said, "You have to do it by yourself." I woke up at this point and boy was I mad. I told God that wasn't right. People should help others. That day I got a phone call and my sister got a plane ticket and was coming down to help me. She couldn't get there for a couple days tho so I had to still spend the next night with my Mom at the hospital (she had to have surgery for the break) but I did get help.

I dreamed that I ate a GIANT marshmallow, when I woke up my pillow was gone!!!
Sorry, I couldn't resist being the immature person I am.

I do believe though in the presence of other "people/spirits" or whatever you wish to call them. I don't think it's just lights out, everyone go home when it's over. While I know I do not believe in the catholic teaching of heaven/hell/original sin/etc, I really do not know what happens to us after we die. I do think religion was created to explain the unexplainable (until science had to come along and ruin everything!) and also to keep people in line and get property and money etc....

But who knows, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right. I think as long as you are not hurting anyone you're probably doing OK.

to some extent religion HAS been used to control, manipulate and enrich the coffers of the "anointed".

I also think that there's so much we don't know so we DO make up some answers to appease our fears. On the other hand, I know we're energy (our souls) and that energy just cannot die, only our flesh dies. The details of what happens.... who really knows on this side of the equation.

I just know from where i gain my strength and to whom i go to for comfort. And s/he has never failed me yet.

peace, emily

I too think we are energy and don't know what happens when the heart stops pumping. Maybe we will power someone's giant HUMMER as energy. Gee, I sure as sh*t hope not. I don't think it's that kind of energy.
Emily, I think it's wonderful that you have a place that gives YOU strength. I think that is what matters when all is said and done.
peace out
-p

Figures a guy would think of a big vehicle. HA!

I'd want to power at '67 split windshield VW microbus. Or maybe I will just haunt our '71.

If I were thinking along those lines, then a HUMMER wouldn't be the vehicle that's for sure.
I was using that as the biggest waste of gas and energy.
Now if I had my pick of a car to power, it would be a SmartA$$ car to match my personality ;-)

Bummer, the end of Summer.
I want to go swimmin, with bowlegged women...
-p
You seem to bring this side out of me Emily ;-)

You are right I think, there have been so many documented near death experiences that it 's hard to discount the afterlife.

Okay I am jumping in a bit late since this part of the tread happened in August but I will share one of the unique things that has happened to me. I have copied it from where I posted it on the bc board in Dec 08...here goes.

My sister passed away on Dec 15, 2007 sometime between 2:00 a.m. and 4 a.m. we were all there but none of us know the exact time. She was fascinated with things that lit up, toys, eye glasses that had lights in them to read (she called these her magic eyes and she made sure we all had a pair :-)) figurines that lit up and candles, oh how she loved candles. In her home she had at least 20 candles that she lit nightly, it was always beautiful and of course it smelled lovely. She also had a gorgeous heart shaped wreath that lights up which she gave to me day's before she passed saying she was sending her heart with me because she knew I would care for it and keep it lit, she was right.

I have told you this as a lead in to what has been happening in my home over the last week. Please read this with an open mind and heart and know that I am a very happy and stable woman (not a nut job). On my husbands side of the bed he has a touch sensitive lamp which has been there for a year and has functioned properly in all of that time. Well four nights ago it began turning on on its own the moment I would turn out my light to go to sleep; which is in most cases no earlier than 2:30 a.m. Now, I mean that I would close my eyes and the lamp would turn on. I thought how odd the first night and asked him to turn it off, it did it 6 more times till we finally just left it on. In the following days I have checked the light throughout the day and it has remained off. No further light shows occurred until last night, I closed my eyes and on came the light. I shut it off and that was the end of that. Tonight at 3:00 a.m. I turned my lamp out, got comfortable and closed my eyes, ping the room lit up. I asked my husband to turn the light out and he looked perplexed and checked his watch, it was then that I realized it is only turning on in the hours that she passed, in the month that she passed and it is a light and as I mentioned above she loved lights! I sobbed for a few moments and am still tearing a bit. It is just like her to want to soothe my pain of her loss by letting me know she is okay. I then vocally told her "I got it, I understand Susan it's you and you are okay. Once I acknowledged her it stopped happening Please understand that I am not making this up, I am in tears as I write this. I am trusting that you all will understand.

I am putting my reputation as a stable person on the line here. I hope this has not offended anyone as it is not my intention to push a spiritual aspect on anyone, it is just what is happening here and I wanted to share.

As I stated in my intro I wrote that on Dec 5, 2008, the lamp has never done that again and continues to function normally.

Thank you all for sharing your experiences which prompted me to do the same.

RE

I'll vouch for you RE. I'd say you're as sane as I am but some others might wonder about me so I'll say you're perfectly sane and leave it at that.

;-)

I thought you were going to say "I am a very happy and stable woman (not a nut job). On my husbands side of the FAMILY is another story...."

I totally believe you too. There's much more out there than meets the eyes.
Very cool and reassuring too I bet.
-phil

You are fine, sometimes he loves us so deeply and just wants to uniquely reassure us :)

Seek and ye shall find. This thread was created after the big blowup some months back with the whole "religion and where people could go" comment. I think it's great. I find I enjoy spending more time here than there. Sometimes I've had it with cancer talk. I do try to help people but some topics I really can't offer any advice on so I don't try to.
Glad you found the thread Donna
-p

...I been through alot this past year, but most have had this cancer longer then me and been through much more, so I can only offer certain kinds of advice, if I been through it, but yeah, it's nice to be able to talk about other things besides cancer itself, I enjoy other conversations. I try more to encourage and support people even though I may be of little help, as long as they know we're here for them, it makes me happy.

I'm glad I found these other topics as well! Thanks alot Phil!

Hugsss!
~Donna

I think every one of us has something to offer. It's not a longevity contest and just because someone has been at it longer doesn't necessarily make them wiser than anyone else.

I'm glad you found these topics too Donna
-p

It is sssooo comforting that God can step into our minds and reality to provide that healing and emotional touch when we need it most!! I'm so grateful he touched you that way!!

What a wonderful answer!
Thank you
-phil

Craig,

Thank you very much for sharing that strange feeling you experienced at the moment of your sister's horrific murder. At 3:21 on the afternoon of February 21, 1994, I felt an unexplained wave of grief as I sat in a movie theater. Thursday of that same week, February 24, I discovered the body of my brother at the end of an electric cord. On February 21, 1998, my father suffered a second massive stroke, prompting my call for an ambulance. His physician informed me and my mother that we should consider moving him to hospice. However, I knew in my heart that Dad would not need hospice. Shortly after 3:00 PM, on February 24, 1998, I received a call from the hospital informing me that my father had passed. I was not surprised because I knew that my brother had taken our paralyzed father "home".

Thank you again for have the courage to share your tragic story.

Love and Courage!

Rick

I agree, we ARE lucky because we have a second chance of sorts.
I'm sorry you are dealing with cancer but thank you for sharing.
-phil

This is a very interesting question, but I have to quote it straight from the Bible

Gen:2:7: And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This word became a living soul is very interesting!

Two things here Dust of the earth and the breath of God = Living Soul

Kind of like a light blub you have a blub and electricity it = Light

Remove the electricity or the blub and you don’t have light anymore, all you have is a blub.

Remove the breath of God and man dies he is no longer a living Soul but Dead or as Jesus called it Sleeping.

Jn:11:11: These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

Lazarus was in the grave for almost 3 or 4 days, now if he was in hell and Jesus called him back to this earth I am sure he would have been glad and told everyone don’t go there.

But if he was in Heaven and Jesus called him back to this earth I am sure he would have been mad or at lease very up-set to come back to this place and have to die again, and he did not say anything about being in heaven.

Interesting / Last scriptures

1Thes:4:16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Could it be that the saints of God are sleeping in the dust of the earth waiting for God to return to take his children home?

17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Please don’t anyone shoot the Massager, I would like to know what you believe and why you believe what you believe.

This is a very interesting subject and I believe that the only true answer for it is in the Bible

I don’t mind dying and I am not afraid of death if I know that the next thing I hear is my savior's voice calling for me and coming to get me.

Thanks for your response.
Like I said (of think I said) this is a very open topic and people have different beliefs and who is to say that one is right and one is not right. There is no one on this board (that I know of) who has died and come back to "set the record straight" as they say.

While the Bible is a book that is the basis of Christianity (I think, I'm no theologian at all and I don't play one on TV either) I do not believe it is the word of God. I believe that a man named Jesus walked the earth but I do not think he was the Son of God. Just to give some background on me, I was raised Roman Catholic and spent my first 8 years in a Catholic school. All of the above was taught to me in school but as I got older none of it made sense to me at all from original sin and babies not going to heaven (which I also do not believe in as it is described in the Bible) to not being "saved" unless we accept Jesus as our Saviour. I do believe that the Bible is filled with metaphors for how people could/should lead their lives, many of them are sound - some not so sound (IMO).

I also don't see how the Bible and Jesus and believe in the Christian God is the only "answer", that would discredit EVERY other belief system that ever was and still is. Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Native American Indians and I'm sure the list goes on. According to what I have read from Joseph Campbell's writings, there are many similar beliefs that are found in most all of the major religions. They just have different names but the Virgin Birth is not just a Christian belief but is found in other religions too. I can't locate my book at the moment to cite the example but there are countless common beliefs that range from ancient Native Indian to Chinese to Christian.
How can everyone be right? Who is to say who is wrong (other than the Christian God saying His is the Only word)?

I believe very strongly in evolution. I also believe that our energy or consciousness goes somewhere. Where/what that place is, I have no idea at all. Isn't there a law in physics that states energy can neither be created or destroyed. I'm not sure if it would apply in this case but I find it hard to believe that "the show is over, lights out. Everybody go home now".

I see that you have a very strong Christian faith. That works for you and that is wonderful. Me being someone who admittedly does not know, I can't somehow dismiss every religion as wrong or declare any religion as right. I do know that the battle by humanity over which God is the true one has caused millions upon millions of deaths in His name and somehow I see that as missing the point that He would want us to take from what has been written about Him.

Thank you for answering the question Hondo, I'm glad you find peace in what you believe. I hope that you lead your life in a way that respects others right to believe what they choose to believe.
-phil

Thanks for your insights, like you said there are a lot of different beliefs out there and who is to say which is right and which is wrong. I believe that all men are free and that this freedom also gives us the right to believe what we want; and that we should not be force to believe contrary by any religion or government

I too was raised in the Catholic Church and went to Catholic school up to 8th grade, and like you, had problems believing everything that was taught, not to say any of it was right or wrong.

I had to find God for myself and learned to put my fears in his hands. I too am not a theologian and found that Jesus did not call any of the so called theologians of his days; I guess because they were too set in there teachings and He could not teach them what truth really was.

I find myself as a humble fisherman, I learned from the Bible and the Bible only because I choose to put my faith in Jesus rather then the world. I believe it to be a great lost that all Christian don’t believe the same thing, many Churches all have different teaching about the same subject. But then Paul said it best in 2Thes:2:7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: even in the days of Gods disciples satan was hard at work causing disbelieve.

In having Cancer I find that putting my faith in the hands of Jesus so relaxing, like I said I am not afraid of death because this I do know. If I am wrong and there is no Jesus after this life, then I have lived a good life on this Earth and have wronged no one.

But if I am right and there is a Jesus after this life, I can say I lived by all I knew that was truth and putting my faith in your hands, my Lord, my God, and my Savior.

Thanks so much for your reply, also I love your Guitars very nice collection, I will visit back now and then, to all have a happy and safe day.

You really wrote a great response Hondo. I agree we are all free, which is not the case all over the world sad to say. Most importantly to me is to treat others with respect and to treat them as you wish to be treated. Very simple concept but not always practiced.

Thank you for the guitar compliment. I have one or two that are not in the photo. Please visit again. I've been trying to get off topic a little but keep it in the area we all can relate to. We're all going to die at some point but just talking cancer gets boring at times.

Many people on this board my not know this about me but I run/worked for 10 years with men and women dying of HIV/AIDS. I have held the hands of many many people who have passed most of whom I have become very close to. I had learned a lot over the years from many people who have long since passed. A man named Don told me the best fishing spot on a river in Oregon. When I go their I remember him. A man named Jack told me that when he passes he wants to fly like a bird. The morning of his passing a hawk flew just feet in front of my truck for well over a mile as I drive down a country road. I have a feeling maybe it was a sign from him? I once had a woman named June who told me that after she passes that every time I see the wind blow the leaves on a tree that it's just her saying hi. I have many stories just like the ones I have told you here. Phill >> If I go before you. Please remember me when ever you play "Amazing Grace" and when you play it remember me so I'll never really be gone.

Brooks

..are beautiful stories, I love the hawk one, and believe that our loved ones leave signs for us all the time. I have dreams of my loved ones who have passed on, and believe they just show up to let me know they are still around. I believe in "Pennies from Heaven" because I always see pennies on the dresser, or on the table or on the floor, and know I just cleaned it off, and it was NOT there before, I believe they leave them for me to know that they are still here. I've even caught visions in the corners of my eyes of shadows that looked like mom and dad, it was scary, but it happened, and I love that song "Amazing Grace". You will never really be gone, I don't believe that would ever happen :)

Hugsss!
~Donna

WHEN you hear the terms “soul” and “spirit,” what comes to your mind? Many believe that these words mean something invisible and immortal that exists inside us. They think that at death this invisible part of a human leaves the body and lives on. Since this belief is so widespread, many are surprised to learn that it is not at all what the Bible teaches.

What, then, is the soul, and what is the spirit, according to God’s Word?

First, consider the soul. You may remember that the Bible was originally written mainly in Hebrew and Greek. When writing about the soul, the Bible writers used the Hebrew word ne′phesh or the Greek word psy·khe′. These two words occur well over 800 times in the Scriptures, and the New World Translation consistently renders them “soul.”

Soul

Definition: In the Bible, “soul” is translated from the Hebrew ne′phesh and the Greek psy·khe′. Bible usage shows the soul to be a person or an animal or the life that a person or an animal enjoys. To many persons, however, “soul” means the immaterial or spirit part of a human being that survives the death of the physical body. Others understand it to be the principle of life. But these latter views are not Bible teachings.

What does the Bible say that helps us to understand what the soul is?

Gen. 2:7: “Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.” (Notice that this does not say that man was given a soul but that he became a soul, a living person.) (The part of the Hebrew word here rendered “soul” is ne′phesh. KJ, AS, and Dy agree with that rendering. RS, JB, NAB read “being.” NE says “creature.” Kx reads “person.”)

1 Cor. 15:45: “It is even so written: ‘The first man Adam became a living soul.’ The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.” (So the Christian Greek Scriptures agree with the Hebrew Scriptures as to what the soul is.) (The Greek word here translated “soul” is the accusative case of psy·khe′. KJ, AS, Dy, JB, NAB, and Kx also read “soul.” RS, NE, and TEV say “being.”)

1 Pet. 3:20: “In Noah’s days . . . a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.” (The Greek word here translated “souls” is psy·khai′, the plural form of psy·khe′. KJ, AS, Dy, and Kx also read “souls.” JB and TEV say “people”; RS, NE, and NAB use “persons.”)

Gen. 9:5: “Besides that, your blood of your souls [or, “lives”; Hebrew, from ne′phesh] shall I ask back.” (Here the soul is said to have blood.)

Josh. 11:11: “They went striking every soul [Hebrew, ne′phesh] that was in it with the edge of the sword.” (The soul is here shown to be something that can be touched by the sword, so these souls could not have been spirits.)

Is the soul the same as the spirit?

Eccl. 12:7: “Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit [or, life-force; Hebrew, ru′ach] itself returns to the true God who gave it.” (Notice that the Hebrew word for spirit is ru′ach; but the word translated soul is ne′phesh. The text does not mean that at death the spirit travels all the way to the personal presence of God; rather, any prospect for the person to live again rests with God. In similar usage, we may say that, if required payments are not made by the buyer of a piece of property, the property “returns” to its owner.) (KJ, AS, RS, NE, and Dy all here render ru′ach as “spirit.” NAB reads “life breath.”)

Eccl. 3:19: “There is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit [Hebrew, ru′ach].” (Thus both mankind and beasts are shown to have the same ru′ach, or spirit.)

Heb. 4:12: “The word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul [Greek, psy·khes′; “life,” NE] and spirit [Greek, pneu′ma·tos], and of joints and their marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart.” (Observe that the Greek word for “spirit” is not the same as the word for “soul.”)

Can the human soul die?

Ezek. 18:4: “Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul* that is sinning—it itself will die.” (*Hebrew reads “the ne′phesh.” KJ, AS, RS, NE, and Dy render it “the soul.” Some translations say “the man” or “the person.”)

Matt. 10:28: “Do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul [or, “life”]; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul* and body in Gehenna.” (*Greek has the accusative case of psy·khe′. KJ, AS, RS, NE, TEV, Dy, JB, and NAB all render it “soul.”)

Acts 3:23: “Indeed, any soul [Greek, psy·khe′] that does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.”

Spirit

Bible writers used the Hebrew word ru′ach or the Greek word pneu′ma when writing about the “spirit.”

Definition: The Hebrew word ru′ach and the Greek pneu′ma, which are often translated “spirit,” have a number of meanings. All of them refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. The Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to the active life-force in earthly creatures.

Is there a spirit part of man that survives the death of the body?

Ezek. 18:4: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (RS, NE, KJ, and Dy all render the Hebrew word ne′phesh in this verse as “soul,” thus saying that it is the soul that dies. Some translations that render ne′phesh as “soul” in other passages use the expression “the man” or “the one” in this verse. So, the ne′phesh, the soul, is the person, not an immaterial part of him that survives when his body dies.)

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” (The Hebrew word here translated “spirit” is a derivative of ru′ach. Some translators render it “breath.” When that ru′ach, or active life-force, leaves the body, the person’s thoughts perish; they do not continue in another realm.)

Eccl. 3:19-21: “There is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust. Who is there knowing the spirit of the sons of mankind, whether it is ascending upward; and the spirit of the beast, whether it is descending downward to the earth?” (Because of the inheritance of sin and death from Adam, humans all die and return to the dust, as animals do. But does each human have a spirit that goes on living as an intelligent personality after it ceases to function in the body? No; verse 19 answers that humans and beasts “all have but one spirit.”

Based merely on human observation, no one can authoritatively answer the question raised in verse 21 regarding the spirit. But God’s Word answers that there is nothing that humans have as a result of birth that gives them superiority over beasts when they die. However, because of God’s merciful provision through Christ, the prospect of living forever has been opened up to humans who exercise faith, but not to animals. For many of mankind, that will be made possible by resurrection, when active life-force from God will invigorate them again.)

Luke 23:46: “Jesus called with a loud voice and said: ‘Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit [Greek, pneu′ma′].’ When he had said this, he expired.” (Notice that Jesus expired. When his spirit went out he was not on his way to heaven. Not until the third day from this was Jesus resurrected from the dead. Then, as Acts 1:3, 9 shows, it was 40 more days before he ascended to heaven. So, what is the meaning of what Jesus said at the time of his death? He was saying that he knew that, when he died, his future life prospects rested entirely with God.

Were humans made simply to live for a few years and then die?

Gen. 2:15-17: “Jehovah God proceeded to take the man [Adam] and settle him in the garden of Eden to cultivate it and to take care of it. And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: ‘From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.’” (God here spoke of death, not as an unavoidable circumstance, but as what would result from sin. He was urging Adam to avoid it. Compare Romans 6:23.)

Gen. 2:8, 9: “Jehovah God planted a garden in Eden, toward the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. Thus Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every tree desirable to one’s sight and good for food and also the tree of life in the middle of the garden.” (After Adam’s sin the human pair were driven out of Eden so that they would not eat from the tree of life, according to Genesis 3:22, 23. So it seems that if Adam had remained obedient to his Creator, God would in time have permitted him to eat from that tree as a symbol of his having proved worthy to live forever. The presence of the tree of life in Eden pointed to such a prospect.)

Ps. 37:29: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” (This promise makes it clear that God’s basic purpose regarding the earth and mankind has not changed.)

But in our own case today, is a brief existence, often marred by suffering, what life is meant to be?

Rom. 5:12: “Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.” (That is what all of us inherited, not because God purposed it, but because of Adam’s sin.)

Job 14:1: “Man, born of woman, is short-lived and glutted with agitation.” (To a large extent that characterizes life in this imperfect system of things.)

On what basis can anyone hope to have more than his present brief human existence?

Matt. 20:28: “The Son of man [Jesus Christ] came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.”

John 3:16: “God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.”

Heb. 5:9: “After he [Jesus Christ] had been made perfect he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him.” (Also John 3:36)

How will the prospects for future life be realized?

Acts 24:15: “I have hope toward God, which hope these men themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” (This will include persons who faithfully served God in the past as well as the large number who never knew enough about the true God to accept or to reject his ways.)

John 11:25, 26: “Jesus said to her [the sister of a man whom he thereaf
ter restored to life]: ‘I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; and everyone that is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. Do you believe this?’” (So, besides the hope of resurrection, Jesus held out something else for persons living when the present wicked world comes to its end. Those with the hope of being earthly subjects of God’s Kingdom have the prospect of surviving and never dying at all.)

Is there any evidence in the makeup of the human body that it was designed to live forever?

It is widely recognized that the capacity of the human brain far exceeds any use to which we put it during our present lifetime, whether we live to 70 or even 100 years of age. The Encyclopædia Britannica states that the human brain “is endowed with considerably more potential than is realizable in the course of one person’s lifetime.” (1976, Vol. 12, p. 998) Scientist Carl Sagan states that the human brain could hold information that “would fill some twenty million volumes, as many as in the world’s largest libraries.” (Cosmos, 1980, p. 278) Regarding the capacity of the human brain’s “filing system,” biochemist Isaac Asimov wrote that it is “perfectly capable of handling any load of learning and memory which the human being is likely to put upon it—and a billion times more than that quantity, too.”—The New York Times Magazine, October 9, 1966, p. 146. (Why was the human brain endowed with such a capacity if it was not to be used? Is it not reasonable that humans, with the capacity for endless learning, were actually designed to live forever?)

http://www.watchtower.org/e/bh/appendix_07.htm

Sure Hope,
I'm happy for you that you are comfortable and have certainty of what will happen to you after you pass on.
Thanks for your response
-p

I am reading this on the "day of the dead"!! This discussion is intense and interesting and fascinating!! And endless.

All in all, religion is MAN-made. Everyone sees the world through their own lenses and "fundamental" anything is not a good thing, I don't think. The debate about no right of wrong is an example of that - it depends on who you ask really. Are quotes from the Bible any more valid than quotes from the Koran or any other religion?

Regarding the original question, where we go when we die? - I will leave behind a park bench with my name on it - nestled in beautiful surrounding. I'm hoping my spirit will be recycled as positive energy that continues to contribute good things to this world and maybe others!!

Blessings and positive energy to you all. Mary Ann

I've only scanned this thread but I saw somewhere back a request for responses outside the Christian belief system so I thought I'd chime in. I recently lost my wife to cancer and have posted on the caregivers survivor board. My wife was a Christian with a strong Mormon influence, but before we began to date she had drifted from the church. Nevertheless, her Christian faith remained strong.

I was raised a Catholic, was saved in a Southern Baptist chruch as a new US Marine in training in Memphis. Not long after being saved I stopped attending the church and began to question where my faith had come from. I finally accepted that I was agnostic - wanting to believe in God but unable to do so without question, but also unable to say he didn't exist at all. I remained an Agnostic for years and began to formulate my own theories about what spiritual realms and realities were out there.

When my wife was diagnosed with cancer I thought I should help her reconnect on a deeper level with her faith so I began to read the Bible and the Book of Mormon to her at bedtime. From there, we progressed - she had an interest in other faiths so we got books that taught beliefs from different religions. One day she let me know that she had read about Buddhism and that she was quite intrigued with Buddhist teachings.

I then began to read about Buddhism and, simply put, I found my path. For me, for the first time, I had a profound connection to the teachings of a "religion" (some would argus that Buddhism is not a religion). My dear wife led me to my spiritual path when I was trying to reconnect her to her belief system.

Anyway, I am new to the path but feel I have learned enough to talk about it. Suffice it to say that the Buddhist path has been very helpful to me during my wife's cancer journey. I also learned to honor other people's faiths more than I had before. My wife's Christian faith was unwavering and she fought her battle with dignity, strength and a clear conscious, never fearing death because she knew she would be in her Heavenly Father's Kingdom at the end of her battle.

If you are curious about Buddhism, and if I'm capable, I'll try and answer some of your questions. Metta. :)

Metla, thank you for adding some other views. I believe there are so many paths to enlightenment if that's what's at the end of the journey.
-phil

About your wife, she had great courage and grace. What a great post!! I was in the Navy :)

I'm glad you enjoyed the question. It's an Oldie but Goodie for sure with as many answers as there are stars in the universe.
Thanks for you input.
-phil

"I have absolutely nothing to contribute regarding what happens when we die."
BS!!!!!
You certainly have something to contribute. This isn't a quiz with right or wrong answers.
You said "We die....we go somewhere...Where? Do I have to work?? Do I get to enjoy my hobbies?? Or am I floating around forever in some nebulous form? Is there a second end? Maybe I get to meet Mark Twain or Winston Churchill."
I surely HOPE we do not have to work. I think that maybe that might be what Hell is ;-)
So maybe we do get to meet people we've always wanted to meet. Who knows? No one KNOWS the real answer who still is alive.

You have many ideas of what may happen, thanks for adding them to the list of possibilities.
-p

:)

Despite Phil's rather emotional (but well-intentioned) outburst, you are correct in the final analysis. None of us has anything to contribute by the standards you imply, since none of us has died and therefore cannot share in the experience, if there is one to share.

We CAN believe, however, which is quite a different thing from knowing. And we can HOPE, which is quite a different thing from knowing.

We can also speculate, which is what Phil was getting at when he started this thread (I think). And that is what he means by his strident insistence that you can contribute, I think. Anyone, in fact, can say whatever one wants to say, and it is valid here.

I find that both amusing and food for further thought. Whenever I am hungry.

Take care and be well,

Joe

Hey Joe,
I noticed there's a study being done on people who have experienced clinical death and came back to life with reports of out of body experiences such as hovering over their bodies etc.
Apparently a Scientist is going to place certain unusual objects or projections on the floor in rooms of hundreds of patients who are likely candidates for experiencing clinical death to see if they are able to identify any of the objects that were placed in the room while they were under anesthesia before their operations etc. should they have the dubious fortune to survive and come back from clinical death. I believe the study is called AWARE and is being directed by a Dr Sam Parnia of the Weill Cornell Medical center.
Should be an interesting experiment. I don't know anything else about it, but I'm going to do some research.
DennisR

I will have to look into that. I was in an induced coma for four days following my first surgery (head/neck cancer) and can tell you for sure that I was not, in fact, in the sort of coma that we associate with the word: I was not brain-dead, but, rather, experiencing, quite painfully (in an emotional sense) and 'real-ly' a number of amazing things that I was so convinced were true that when I finally came to in the step-down unit, I assumed that my wife, who had spent all of that time by my very side, had decided to leave me: all because of some bizzare dream I had while in that coma (it is beyond pyschoanalysis, I think, since it happened in '05 and even back then Robert Downey, Jr. was one of my doctors and conspiring to kill me, among my other notions).

To be honest, the entire two weeks in the hospital, I did not ask my wife if she was leaving, I was so certain, and only got around to the discussion in the car ride on the way home from the hospital.

Interesting. I am open.

Take care and thanks for the head's up,

Joe

My grandmother was not a woman of any faith. In fact she was proubly only in churches for weddings and funerals. She was more of a believer in a stiff afternoon drink ha ha. She was about to pass away and my mother was sitting beside her. My grandmother asked who the man was standing at the end of her bed. There was no one there so my mother asked for a description. Here is what she said. Its a man with a long bread and he is wearing white robes. He is reaching his arms out towards me like he wants me to go with him. She passed on that evening. I put that under "things that make you go Hummm". Slickwilly

Indeed! Cool story, one never knows...do one?
Thanks for posting

LOL........My thoughts are these.....If I believe in God and He is real then I have everything to gain and nothing to lose so it is a win/win. If I don't believe and He is real then what ? I'm not willing or wanting to take that chance. So my thoughts about what happens afterwards are exactly what I expressed, I really think there is a Heaven and Hell. It allows people to be a lot less scared of dying so its good for anyone that believes in it. It doesn't have to be crammed down anyones throat, and hopefully it won't be, but just the same it does help to create a nicer human race as to how we treat each other. My thoughts are mine and mine only, it just seems to bring a calming effect to those who really believe, I am one of those...I do though do not like the visitation part of the churches ministries because of the fact that I think it turns more off than on about religion. If they want to go they know where a church is. Now, if they ask for visitation then fine. Sorry off the subject.....
I think that we do leave our earthly soul to be in Heaven forever. I also do not believe in luck or coincidence either.......Love and Hope, Buzz

Buzz,

Your notion about what is essentially hedging your bets is not original as you may know; Pascal's Wager, named for the philosopher Blaise Pascal, says the same thing.

It is hard to argue with the practicality of the notion, but practicality and belief are two different things. I would argue, in fact, that reducing god's existence to practicality refutes the possibility that one is a true believer.

Belief is not knowledge but it may in fact be stronger than knowledge given our foibles, and certainly more CERTAIN than a carefully constructed but flawed edifice of chance.

Your recommendations with respect to belief are good ones, buss, for sure. I envy those who can truly believe for whatever reason (faith, I think it is usually called), but I can talk myself into it. Raised in the Halls of Reason, I require more than I have been presented to date.

As for your comments about it being 'crammed down people's throats', christianity has from its inception encouraged proselytizing, so there is little wonder that this continues today, although the shrewdest sects seem to tone it down or amp it up dependent on which culture they cultivating at the moment.

One guy's view.

Take care,

Joe

Hello -- great posts. I usually post only in lung cancer but I see my friend Joe here so -- I will add my two cents. I have no idea what happens. I will say this. I have been raised a catholic and have had many, many issues over the years. So many that I left the church. I felt a strong "God" or higher power presence always, but felt I did not need the church to worship correctly. Since my diagnosis I have gone back to church. Do I feel like that helps "God" be with me? Not really. I don't know why I go -- I just do. I am trying very, very hard to believe in something - at this point I really, really need to - but I feel I make no progress at all. I always thought the higher power simply wanted you to live without intentionally hurting others, helping others when you can, etc. I feel like I had definitely done that. I never hurt anyone and always tried to help as best I could. I raised two children alone and worked too much to enjoy them. Now I have grandbabies I can enjoy and I probably won't live long enough to do so. I always said you live a good life, you be as good as you can be, you get what you deserve in the end. I now wonder what I did to get this at just 53 years old. Then I get mad at myself for the self pity -- and it goes on and on. I hope there is an afterlife -- and I hope I'm not too mad when I get there!! I always say the Big Guy has a lot of explaining to me!!

I read such wonderful, hopeful, thankful posts here. You people amaze me. Do you really never get angry? Do you really never question why? Please -- how do you keep your faith through this awful disease and treatment? Some days are okay -- but as I layed there this morning getting my brain and pelvic radiation just two months after intense chest radiation -- I have to wonder what the heck I did that was so bad?

I hope this is not the absolute wrong place to post this. I hope I dont upset people -- it is more a question of how you all continue to believe - how you hold on to your faith. I admire you all a great deal.

I don't believe that having cancer was a punishment. It's a matter of genes and environment.

As for faith, I have wavered at times. But I had an experience which proved to me that God is real. Unfortunately I can't prove it to you. I guess we each have to find our own proof. Some people just have to rely on faith.

This is just my opinion.

Hi Laura, This is just the right place to post this. It's open to one and all, it's certainly not cancer specific or even cancer related.

I too am a "recovering catholic" so I hear you with their teachings and the other shenanigans they pull.
I certainly do not think you are being punished at all. Maybe you have cancer so you can help others through how you've handled it? I've thought that about my situation at times. I never really played the "why me" game because "why NOT me" works just as well. But I know what you mean, you live your life well and do right by people and get this, while there are others who are just rotten to the core and they are healthy. I think there is much more to life than that.

Thank you for posting and please post/visit more. It's open to one and all and especially to any friend of Joe's.
;-)
-p

Faith in what we believe or faith in a Creater?

I suppose Faith can mean any number of things.

Welcome my friend. It's nice to see you visited and posted over here. This is where we all can post what we believe in or whatever the topic is without the sometimes "backlash" one can get in other areas. You may get discussion or questions about what you believe but I've yet to see any discussion blow up at all.

It sounds like it's an insurance policy in a way. I certainly see no harm in believing things the way you do. It kind of seems to me that this is one thing I've believed for a long time. That man created religion (maybe even God too) so it would answer and sooth themselves for when they die. It's comforting to know that you will go to heaven and things will be just right. I know you pretty well from this site so I know you won't take this the wrong way. Now look at some of the muslim extremists. They feel that by being a martyr that they will go into heaven and be greeted by the whole she-bang of virgins. I know this comparison between the muslims and christians is a very far cry from how you live but both seem to be based on doing things in life that are rewarded after death.

I know that those who have the gift of faith find much comfort in church. I was raised catholic but do not go. When I do go to a service it's presbyterian. I like much of what they say and they tend to be a little more flexible and understanding I've found.

Overall though, I have found that the older I have gotten the less I believe in "all that" and instead find myself looking at things in terms of science and us being energy. I certainly do not think that once we die that it's like someone turning off the light switch and everyone going home. It is said that energy can neither be created nor destroyed so being energy I think we move on somewhere and somehow but I do not believe in heaven and hell. However, I do like to believe in karma but then I sometimes go "well, what the F did I do to get cancer???" and then I don't believe it so much. I think I want to believe it so those SOB's who live horrible lives will somehow be punished. I guess it's like wanted them to go to hell. This is all complicated stuff. That's what makes it cool in many ways. No one REALLY knows the answer. We don't have "The Truth" so anything goes. I do not know if we will be judged in the end. I do believe that we should live by what's called the Golden Rule and to do unto others. I like to try to put myself in others shoes, it really makes a difference in how we treat others if it's taken seriously.

I'm not sure about the luck and coincidence stuff. I know that I've willed things to happen. Nothing major or I'd be driving a better car. Also, ever since I got cancer I have had so many strange things happen like knowing the phone is going to ring or calling my wife at the same time she is calling me when we do not have set times to call. Stuff like that and also other things but nothing of groundbreaking importance. It's just that I'm aware of this stuff more. I like it, it's cool.

Clift, it's really good to see you over here. Please visit/comment more. Start a discussion if the "spirit moves you".
Peace
-phil

This is a sensitive subject open to all sorts of opinions and speculations.
One way to attempt to gain some clarity is to try to interpret odd situations that happen just before or right after the death.

My mother was dying, she was deep in comma and me and other members of the family were around her in the hospital room or nearby in the waiting room. We knew that it would not take too long, a matter of hours, so some of us took short breaks to go to the cafeteria preparing ourselves to pass the night by her bedside while some others would go home to sleep. My mother adored my cousin, who had been by her all the day. When the evening came he had to go home to rest but he went first to have diner in the cafeteria with other members of the family. Half an hour later he was about to leave the hospital but for no good reason he changed his mind and came back to my mother's room. Within few minutes my mother expired. Just by chance or perhaps not by chance she had by her deathbed the very people she truly loved, the others were at that moment in the cafeteria or at home and missed her peaceful end.

in this thread and not on the Main pages.

Thank you for sharing your touching story about your Mom. I have a similar one with my Dad. He had been in and out of consciousness for a few days prior to his passing. The night he died we all were around him but he was not responsive at all. I just started to massage his "third eye" in the middle of his forehead. After a few minutes he woke up and gained consciousness, we all got to talk with him even though he couldn't speak he knew what was going on.
Later that night he passed away.
-phil

visit more and share more too if you feel inclined to

I am of presbyterian faith just for everyones knowledge. But some of my thinking may not go along with any one belief. I do believe though that whether good or bad you will stand before God before you are allowed in Heaven or not, and it gives me peace of mind to know that even with murderers , pedophiles, etc that they may be healthy and live to be 120 years old but someday they will stand before God, there will be what they call "Hell to Pay" then for them. That is how I get through that subject.
As far as going to church, I believe that church offers you a place to worship with others of your faith and to allow you to grow in that faith by learning from others. It is fine to stay at home and still believe, but you are limited in growing your faith, but in my opinion the church is where believers worship together, a place for believers to gather...and to advance their knowledge of the teachings
I also believe that doing good works for the Lord is fine, but until you openly take Him as your Lord and Savior then it doesn't matter how many good deeds you have done, you will still not be admitted into the Kingdom of Heaven...and I do want for all to know this is my opinion of they way I believe, and it all makes sense to me.
He gives me free will, which the way I see this is that He didn't give me anything, and Im not sure if He needs to cure anything, you see to me He says that He will destroy Satan, and I believe that this disease I have is doings from Satan so that he can make Gods children suffer, so for Him to cure all of us He would certainly have to destroy Satan, and He says He will, but at the cost of the end of the earth as we know it.

Remember, its my opinion and simply the way I perceive it.........Buzz

Your views that is Buzz. I go to the presbyterian church when I go to church. For one my wife plays violin for many holiday services and I also find them "less preachy" than the catholics where I was raised. I think there are many very beneficial things that people can gain from going to a church and belonging to the community. I just never believed in heaven and hell. Even from an early age I thought that there are so many different religions and everyone believes they are right. Something seemed wrong with all of that to me. Everyone can't be right. As I grew older I looked at how many people have been murdered in the name of "God" and that didn't seem right to me either. I think it misses the point of his message if you believe in the bible which is another thing I don't believe in. I mean, I know it was written but I see the stories only as metaphors, not as fact.

I think it's more important to live life in the "now" and do what is right because it's the right thing to do, not because at some point I will be judged by someone for it. At least not by the God that is often mentioned. As far as good and evil, I like to believe that those who lived their lives in a "bad" way will have some sort of cosmic debt to pay but what that is I have no idea. Maybe there is heaven and hell, maybe there isn't. It doesn't affect how I treat others at all.

The cool thing with all of this is that no one knows the answers to the questions. Maybe there is a God and at some point I will stand before her :-) and have to explain a bunch of stuff. Maybe I'll stand before someone else and have even more to explain!

Thanks for sharing Clift
-p

My view is that death is a sleep until Jesus comes and wakes us up on that great gettin' up morning.

Amazing how cancer can direct the thoughts to this topic. I remember coming back to the doctor's 7 days after prostate surgery. He informed me I had positive margins and that unless I had radiation I would die. I hardly remember hearing the words but my wife picked up on them. When we were going home afterwards I asked my wife what the doc has said, sort of like a dream, you know what I mean. During radiation the doctor told me my outlook was so/so, 50/50. Still a big step up from "will die." Anyway, life does look different on this side of cancer. Sort of like a mountain top experience with an extended view.

how cancer can direct our thoughts this way. Most people walk around clueless thinking they will live forever. Cancer or not we are all going to die. I was shaken up and started to smell more roses. I would smell them to some extent before but this has been a positive experience for the most part for me even though it sucks part of the time.

You are so right, sometimes ( I try to control it ) I get upset or jealous as I see people doing sport activities I use to be able to do............it's just hard to watch......:)

I totally relate. I try so hard to control it -- but sometimes I just want to scream. I have a friend who is so upset every birthday -- I'm so old, I'm so wrinkled, on and on. This year I could not take it!! I got so mad at her -- started screaming I hope I get to be as old as you!! My son is getting married in 14 mos. I know someone fighting with her daughter over stupid things about her wedding. Again, I want to yell and scream -- leave her alone -- I just hope I'm here for my son's wedding!!! It's so frustrating. I try to look at my cancer as a learning tool -- you quickly learn to appreciate every day, every little thing. I get very angry and frustrated when people close to me do not do that, even though they see my emotional struggles. Anyway -- I think this is what you are talking about. I totally understand - it's very hard. I hope I'm teaching people what is important -- maybe that's why I got this?

I know exactly how you feel when you say "you quickly learn to appreciate every day, every little thing. I get very angry and frustrated when people close to me do not do that, even though they see my emotional struggles". I appreciate everyday and I get upset when people take the little things for granted but then I realize I see things through different eyes than most people do, if you haven't been diagnosed with cancer you don't think of your time as being limited. Even though these people could die in a freak accident at any time they don't look at life that way, they just assume, like most of us used to, that they will live to a ripe old age :-)

I would also like to teach people, especially my family and friends, to appreciate what is important in life but I think it is hopeless. Not that they don't care but without daily reminders, like cancer patients have, they just get busy with their dail routines and forget that their time here could be cut short at any time.

Stay strong and keep smiling,
Glenna

According to the Bible I read you are right on the money, everyone sleeps till it’s over and Jesus comes back for the ones who put there faith in Him. My cancer did two things, first made me grow closer to God and helped me to appreciate what he has done for me.

We all have our opinions and this is just mine not to offend anyone else in what they believe,as we are all free to believe or not..

Take care and God be with you.

You got that chance!1 I never did, my Dad dies suddenly and it took me years to reconcile myself to never having gotten to say good-bye.

Thanks for clearing that issue up as sometimes I feel I am on pins and needles when I write my post in the fear of offend someone, which is not my intent at all but only to be able to express my own opinion

Nobody can beat a jewish mom for one liners LOL:)

If heaven is so great, and you truly believe in it, why aren't you all enthusiastic about going, and not joyful about dying? Personally, I don't think I can believe in heaven, if i did I would sure want to get there rather than endure this...

For myself, I don't care how beautiful and joyous Heaven is, I am sure it is, but I'm not ready to leave my children yet is why, and they aren't ready to see me go.

They can't WAIT to get there!
How strange (to me) is that?

yeah, but that's a kind of brainwashing that goes on with the suicide bombers. They have taken on the role of the matyr. Most of them are men and many Muslim men believe that when they die they will go to Paradise(heaven), become the age that Jesus was when he died and be served by 72 virgins. Well isn't that a great fantasy if you are man!

Pity this is so taken out of context (Paradise) because there is a whole mystical aspect behind it.

I believe in the next life (Heaven if you want to call it that). I know it's better than this life but believe we need to wait till it's our time to pass over and shouldn't rush it. There are lessons to learn and we might be able to help another in some way. This life is really short if you compare it to eternity. No matter how sick I feel or problems I have, I can wait for my time. Besides I'm teaching my husband to cook...he knows how to make eggs now. :>)

May the Lord bless you and keep you and thank-you for your insight and may the Lord bless your husband with culinary skills equall to your faith and humor!

(But without the god part :))

Take care,

Joe

IF heaven could be gained by simply dying, your question makes sense. And I have no doubts that many have tried to enter that way- by dying.

But there are conditions laid out clearly in the Bible for enterance into heaven. The thief on the cross demonstrated those steps. He repented, believed on Jesus, and submitted or followed (as best he could). Dying is not one of the steps to gaining eternal life.

Paul, facing execution in the near future (he was beheaded) knew there was a glorious future waiting for him- not at death, but according to 1 Cor. 15- at the second Coming of Jesus. It is Jesus who rewards the faithful with life then- at His Coming. Jesus is the one who is in charge of "heavenly admissions," and not we ourselves. So we cling to life here while we live, knowing that life is not ours to take, but to live in a faith relationship with Jesus until our last breath slips away and we fall asleep in Jesus as described in John 11 and 1 Thess. 4.

So, while we live it our lot to be in a state of repentance and obedience before Jesus, and turst in Him and wait. You never know, some who have been close to death have recovered.

All that said, there is nothing wrong with letting a disease takes it course and refusing treatment that only complicates what life is left.

Just as the Christian Scientists, of all people, seem to be moderating their dogma regarding medical intervention, you come up with that last line of yours.

One of the things I find most ironic about the new testament, after much deliberation, is that Jesus purportedly spoke of meekness and turning the other cheek and being humble, while his most adamant adherents today are anything but meek, anything but mild, certainly anything but humble. In your certainty, you seem to be further evidence of that.

Jesus, himself, purportedly and if I remember correctly, had doubts even upon the cross.

Take care,

Joe

Hi Joe

(Jesus, himself, purportedly and if I remember correctly, had doubts even upon the cross). Just trying to see what part of the Bible you were reading that said Jesus doubted

Take care

"Why hast thou forsaken me?"

It is in Mark 15:34 where Jesus say's And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani which is, being interpreted, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" this time of year it is mentioned and discussed in many churches as a time when Jesus truly showed his human side as we all have moments of weakness because we are Human as he was while on the cross. He also showed his human self while in the Garden of Gethsemane when in Mark 14:36 it states "And he said, Abba, Father, all things [are] possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt." He so wanted God to say okay my son you do not have to go through with this. However, in the end as he took his last breath as stated in Luke 23:46 "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." So in the end his questions passed and his faith prevailed as he placed his soul in God's keeping to rise on the third day and ascend into the Heavens according to the Bible which is what my faith is based upon.

I guess that is the Easter Story (minus the ever popular bunny part) in a nutshell. Yes Jesus had his moments of weakness and yes if you are a believer in scripture he prevailed. Okay I know most of you hate scripture quoting and I do it so rarely but hey tis the season.

My best to you all I shall now step down from my soap box, ;-)

RE

I would like to express what I think as to why Jesus said “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me.

I don’t see Jesus doubting who he is while being on the cross; I believe this is where a deeper study of the Bible is needed to understand why Jesus said what he said.

If you look at what John the Baptist said about Jesus in John 1:29 Behold the Lamb of God, what was John reason for expressing this? Look at what he said; Jesus was the one, which take away the sin of the world.

In Jesus days a Lamb was sacrifice in behalf of the sinner, transferring the sins from the guilty to the innocent. That Lamb represented Jesus who would take the Sins of all men and die the death that we deserve. Ezek 18:4 said the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Jesus took that death for all who put there faith in Him as our savior he took our Sins.

What separates us from God, Sin correct? So if Jesus took our Sins then he felt what separation from the Father was like and so cried out. Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me. Not because he was week or doubted but because it was what he came to do, Die for all who put there faith in him.

Great study question; take care

Hello Hondo,

In my lifetime I have been to many sermons on this topic and have heard both of our views preached, it is what speaks to you that matters for you. By the way I did not mean to say Jesus doubted who he was he simply felt abandoned at the moment in his life when he needed his father the most (of course he was not abandoned, as a child I am sure you had like moments and perhaps even as an adult). He got past that and followed through with what he knew was required of him so that he could carry our sins for us as the bridge from him to our Lord.

My Best to You and Happy Easter,

RE

I was watching the movie 'A Taste of Cherry' with my daughter. It is about a man who is driving around Tehran trying to find someone who will bury him after he commits suicide. He picks up a man who had been studying in a seminary and the man told him it is a sin to kill oneself. My daughter asked me 'what is sin?'

Hondo, I am very curious to know how you as a Christian define sin.

And what also defines suicide? If one refuses treatment is that suicide?

A definition I found online that defines it fairly well for me:
"People who commit suicide deliberately kill themselves because they do not want to continue living."

I don't think that refusing chemo is suicide. I think it's a choice of how one wants to live their life.

I'll leave the sin question alone...
-phil

Someone I knew who had malaria (Falciparum - the one if you don't treat you are certain to die) out in the boondocks in West Africa. This person said to me, if I die, it is not because of the malaria alone it is because I want to. No-one will think it is suicide, they will say what a shame, he died of malaria. So I have to make choice.

He did make a choice and we did get him to clinic a couple of days after he should have died, the doctors were amazed he was still alive. He lives today.

I am really not saying, that refusing chemo or if one dies from cancer it is a death wish. However it did get me to think different and more deeply about my own desire to live and how I want to live, particularly with regards to my own cancer.

As a Christian I have to use the Bible definition of what sin is as defined In 1 John 3:4 Sin is the transgression of the law, I find only one law in the Bible, Gods law. So to me as a Christian Sin is the transgression of the Gods law. Please understand that the law can’t save you by keeping it, it is only a teacher to show what Sin is. Revelations 14:12 tells me that here is the patience of the saints, here are they that keep the commandments of God, so Gods commandments are his Laws and they tell me what sin is.

On Suicide, again I can only define it from the Bible. Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill correctly understood Thou shalt not murder. Murder is the intent to cause bodily harm to someone or to ones self. Not all suicides are murder; people kill them self’s for all kinds of reason, like depression no intent to murder there just a feeling of hopelessness, despair, desperation.

I don’t believe suicide is refusing to take treatment because from the day of our birth we start dying that is part of live. I have refusing treatment when my cancer came back a third time, but I am not sitting here waiting to die I am doing every thing I can to help my bodies immune system stay strong and help fight the cancer. So if I die I don’t die because I refused chemo treatment I die because I have cancer, hope this helps.

Take care and keep posting

Hello Lisa, I tried to understand what you are enduring but on your site here there are no comments, blogs or expressions so in that area I am a bit in the dark. I do hope that whatever your battles are that you will have better day's ahead.

I do very much believe in Heaven and I know someday I will be there with my Mom and Sister who have gone before me along with other loved ones and of course my Lord. However, I have two adult children who still can learn from my life's lesson's as well as 3 beautiful grandchildren I love with a passion and a husband who I cannot even express how much I love him. Simply because one know's Heaven exists is not a reason to give up on the life we have here and simply say okay no chemo for me let me die. My passing would cause a great deal of suffering in this family as I am the Mom and I love them all. I will fight to remain here as long as I can, when God calls me home home I shall go until then I will be My Guy's Wife, a Mom, Grandma, Sister, Daughter, Auntie, Friend to those I love and that love me.

RE

That is because it is a very good tread and a lot of people of all aspect in life believe in something or nothing after death.

I am just glad to see it can be discuss with out someone becoming offended or wanted to argu just there point. we are all free to Believe it or Not.

Take care

Geez guess you are the proud PaPa of the longest going post on this board to date, perhaps congrats are in order. Have a good day Phil, mine shall be filled with doctor appointments...yucko!

RE

I hope all of your visits go well today.

It's managed to remain a good post. We all have our own ideas about what may happen to us. If I go first I'll try to sign in from where ever I may be. I should start a thread "Do you believe there is wi-fi in the Hereafter and if so is it VIOS or Cable?"
-phil
What a very happy baby you have there...

She is my beautiful grand daughter Ava, she is a tiny little one 9 months and only 16 lbs. had her check up today they don't seemed concerned just say she is tiny.

I have always told Joe if I go first and get back I will visit him to give him the proof he needs to believe, so if you'd like I could do the same for you. Now I must add my disclaimer with my luck and the fact that I am a major clutz with a horrible sense of direction I may well get lost or end up somewhere I did not intend to be but heh I am willing to try if I happen to go first.

Okay wish me luck Phil I just listened to the tutorial you sent me (great to hear your voice by the way) and I am going to try to link something to a discussion. Thanks again for taking the time to do that for it was kind of you.

RE

I love babies but do NOT need any more now. I can wait for grandkids! Kids have a way of catching up with everyone else in due time. Some people are petite too.

Hopefully they will give everyone GPS devices so you'll do OK. It's a pleasure to share what I know with computers, I'm glad you are going to give it a whirl. If you get stuck, email me.

Hope all goes great today
-p

And what I always say is that if I go first I will tap on your shoulder once if there is an afterlife, twice if there is not :).

Take care,

Joe

Yup you are still a goof and I can see by your statement you plan to carry your goofiness into the next realm. Please tap my right shoulder, my left is numb sometimes and I don't want to get the wrong idea..... bye for now Mr. Joe.

RE

So you believe your spirit or energy just dies along with your body, lights out, shows over, dead as a doornail, no afterlife or anything?

-p
PS: you only rot if you're buried. I'm going for cremation. Being buried takes up too much space too. We need the land so we can build more shopping malls.

Agreed. I would rather be cremated to not be any further a waste on the earth than most already are.

But! No, I don't believe in afterlife, and so forth. Just, caput. :)

I'm guessing you are referring to the living, not the dead ;-)

So you think that that's that, no more thoughts...nothing at all?
It's hard for me to imagine but that's me. I don't buy the whole heaven/hell stuff myself. One of most basic laws of science is the Law of the Conservation of Energy. Energy cannot be created or destroyed; it can only be changed from one form to another. That's how I think we are dealt with when the show is over.
Just a possibility I feel.
-phil

Perhaps it's a general apathy I have toward the concept of another life, rebirth or what have you. I figure, if it happens, great, and if not, that's great too.

I am with you on that one Phil, Law of Conservation of Energy. Haven't bought into heaven/hell either.

I did romanticise about rotting in the ground, putting back into the earth what I had taken out (or at least some of it). But at this point in life would prefer to be cremated after being pumped up on chemo and soon to have radiation because I am sure I would be more of pollutant if I were to rot int he ground.

This comment has been removed by the Moderator

there us something after this life, I don't think it is anything even remotely similar to anything we have experienced here in our lives on earth. I don't think time would exist like it does here. I think that it could get into different levels of consciousness perhaps or plains of being. I think many people think it's just like life was on earth but we are doing something that makes us happy. Maybe I'll be able to play any guitar I want and I would be a virtuoso at it too. Or maybe it's eating fried chicken for eternity? Or maybe that's Hell instead.
;-)

we won't even remember we were alive. All those monuments to themselves built by the powerful since social stratification began millenia ago hasn't changed over the centuries.....its all an attempt at immortality. If we are remembered by the living after we die, so be it, we still won't know about it, in my view . We are not much different than any other living organism, including a cancer cell-all living matter strives to stay alive!!!!Its instinct. What differentiates people from all other life forms is our supposed ability to learn, our ability to communicate, our ability to transform, for better or worse, our environment and that of all other life forms.......Also our ability to create things, to find cures for diseases and every now and then help a fellow human.....steve

Hell and fried Chicken Well all I can say that will be the place to cook it I guess,

or at least keep it warm

I'm afraid there'll only be a Hobson's Choice, Phil. You can choose to play any instrument of your choice, but they're all Harps.

You are correct even the Bible said from dust thou art, and unto dust shall thou return or Rot.

Can't say I'm familiar, so I'll take your word for it. :)

I am no expert on the bible at all but your comment made me curious about what it says in the bible Hondo. I didn't think there was and "or rot" at the end of Genesis 3:19. Just reading many parts of Genesis 3 makes me realize why I believe what I do but there are so many things that people believe or do not believe. No one will know the true answer in our lifetime. But the laws of nature have to go with rot!
-p

I am glad to see you have a Bible, there are a lot of things I too don’t believe but I have books on the subject for study purpose.

Correct the word Rot is not there but the meaning of returning to dust implies in order to get back to dust you would have to rot, decay or decompose.

Here is another mystery in the Bible, when you are talking about Death are you talking about the first death or the second death?

According to the Bible there is a vast difference between the two, Revelation 20:6. You would be surprised that a lot of Christians don’t know the different either and many have never heard about it.

I'm not sure if we have a bible, I do have the internet so that was how I found the passage. They sure do have many interpretations of what was written back then. I did attend catholic school for 8 years and did retain some of it too.

Personally I think that Science and God can co-exist but not Science and Religion. I do not believe that the bible is the word of God, I think it was most likely man's attempt to understand and explain the world around him along with some wishful thinking thrown in regarding what happens after our physical death. I tend to be more of a science minded guy so I tend to go with the theory that matter or energy can not be created nor destroyed, it only changes form. Of course that does not mean that I may be totally wrong but that is what I believe and also what makes sense to me. The dust to dust passage makes sense to me but this does not. I mean I understand what they are saying but I do not believe in it. I have heard this before. I've retained a lot it seems...
The nuns had a knack with getting kids to learn things.
;-)
Revelation 20:6.
King James Bible
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
My question, what happens after a thousand years or is that not to be taken literally like everything being created in 6 days?

With your last comment, I am NOT surprised at all if many Christians have not heard of it. Many Christians do not act like Christians either. Same goes for the rest of mankind. We certainly are not always "kind".

that we were all created by the same God and how we deal with that is up to us. I know that in my life I have had things happen to me that could not be explained any other way but that God took control. Believe me when I say it was God cause I am not smart enough to have done some of this stuff on my own.I to believe in spirits and have had them come to me personaly and the bible talke about them and there are good and bad spirits and I have delt with both kinds and that is another thread by it's self. I do believe that when I die I will go to heaven and stand at the thrown and be judged for what I have done here on earth and hope you aren't behind me cause it may take awhile Phil, but we all will be there and have to explain to God. I just got NED from cc and 2 weeks later find out I have a cancerous tumor on my liver bile duct and here we go again.I have made it this far by the grace of God and I will beat this next one the same way. There is no place we can look up how long we will live and I can't find a bar code any where on me that has an experation date...

does not mention rot but if you read numbers 5 -21 to 27 it explains rot and it is nothing to do with the death we talked about earlier it refers to finding out if a woman has been unfaithful to her husband .

You are correct the word rot is not found in Genesis 3:19 just the indirect meaning of returning back to dust from being a living creature.

Take care

I too did the 8 years of catholic School, if fact I was at one point in my life going to study to be Priest, but that never happened.

I agree with you on the fact that Science and God can co-exist, when I read the Bible it tells me of things that happened thousands of years ago and I can see the evident of that in the earth today, I have no problems there. As far as Religion it is not going to save anyone anyway so let it slip by. The Bible everyone has the right to believe it or not so again no problem there.

Matter or energy can not be created nor destroyed; Man today can take simple Hydrogen and split the atom and make an atomic H bomb, causing matter to be turned into Energy. I believe it then to be a simple process for someone like God to do just the opposite of Man and turn Energy back into matter and use it to create worlds.

On the question of what happens after the 1000 years. Many people want to explain what they think this means, I rather let the Bible explain it.

Rv:21:1: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. This old world will no longer exist; God will create a new one after we have finished destroying this one.

Rv:21:10: And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, The people who have put there Faith in God will be living with him. They will be living 1000 years with him before he comes back to re-create this world.

Like I said this is from what I believe will happen as I read it out of a book I believe in, and no wrong to you Phil if you don’t believe in it. I do like your tread's as they more then any make me think and study and that my friend I do appreciate

I'm glad you enjoy my threads. I try to give us all some food for thought. I enjoy your comments. It's always interesting to hear what others believe.
-p

If Religion is described as Man's early attempts to understand the World around him with some wishful thinking thrown in...it sounds an awful lot like Modern Science to me.

That's funny. I guess that one man's ceiling is another man's floor.
How I see is that science can question things about the universe, then prove or disprove the theories with experiments and testing so they/we understand the world around us. Religion pre-dates science as far as peoples knowledge about the world around them. Religion and Science did not get along at all. It seemed that the RC Church (to name a religion that set many of the rules of the time) had a hard time with many of the ideas that that proven false by science. Men like Copernicus, Galileo, and DaVinci were punished for going against the church...

That was a great comeback Dennis.
-p

The Roman Catholic church in the last year or so announced some sort of thing (as they do) indicating that they embrace the notion of evolution and an expanding universe, to wit: the notion that science and the church can live together.

Those of us who are skeptical in nature would consider this an attempt to keep the money truck fueled. I am one of them.

Even so, it is a historical development.

That said, from a lay perspective it seems that science and religion would be incompatible, not because of the countering suppositions about creation and so forth, but because from a philosophical perspective they simply cannot be conjoined.

One demands faith and the other insists that faith is not just insufficient but anathema.

How do they resolve that?

Beyond that, and to Dennis' point, we are humanity striving to understand our world and our universe. The establishment of science and its rules, while seemingly logical to me, does not mean that science is right.

On the other hand, to refute science is to go back to the Dark Ages. As someone mentioned in another post on this board with respect to 'widgets', much of what we consider necessary to live, much of what allows us to live longer (and, for those of us on this board, perhaps, to live at all), comes as a direct result of science and its tenets.

Take away everything in your environment, Dennis, that is not a product of the wishful thinking of science, and tell me what is left?

Take care,

Joe

Unfortunately, Joe, not everything that results from either Religion or Science is all for the good of mankind. Odd that you consider yourself to be such a pragmatist when it comes to Religion, yet appear to accept all things "Science" without further consideration with respect to the so called "breakthroughs" effects on the the environment and mankind in general.
Nuclear Energy may be a plus, but Nuclear Weaponry certainly leaves something to be desired..Crop Hybridization may appear to be a boon at face value, but is proving to be a double-edged sword as well in terms of soil depletion, diseases, need for excessive pestacides and fertilizers, and expensive patented seeds, all of which are controlling the prices, quality, and marketing, of the World's food supplies. Wind Farms are destroying a million birds a year now and we only have 1/5 of the number of turbines the administration is planning, what will it be like when they're all on line? Will the wind and solar energy costs still be viable when we stop subsidizing them, I doubt it.
Sure , Joe, I absolutely agree there are a lot of medical advancements being made...and there are a lot of Research Companies and Insurance Companies making fortunes selling them to the sick and hungry of the world. Doesn't seem all that long ago that a shot of Penicillin would cure darn near anything, now it won't cure anything at all.
I suspect that too much of a good thing is a Bad thing when it comes to either Religion...or Science, or medicine, for that matter.
Just sayin'

Hi Joe and Dennis,
This is the first time I have gone to this site. My eyes are tired from reading so many posts! Great messages you are all expressing. Hi to Phil too, who started this thread. As far as my belief, I believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. I believe in heaven and hell. I believe that there is "something" after death. Not sure exactly what, but there is something, or somewhere we go. Growing up I was baptized Methodist. We hardly ever went to church. Sad, but true. Now that I am in my 40's with my own family, we go to a reformed english anglican church where our daughter goes to school. We learn both the old and new testament. I also agree in cremation. I believe in the resurrection. The one bible verse, I can not quote, but it goes something like from ashes we come, to ashes we return. I know that is not it, but you get my drift. I was never one for quoting bible verses. Anyway...that is my story. Glad to be here, and hope to meet and talk to all of you soon.
Tina

Hi Tina, I've always separated the Spirit from the body, in my mind, and sort of look at it like my body, for better or worse, is just the case I'm spiritually enclosed in. In that sense, what happens to my old living quarters after my Spirit has moved on to some other existance, is of little concern to me
There is some Scientific evidence that the Human Spirit, or Soul, does indeed have an Atomic Weight and has been has been accurately measured and documented as leaving the body at the exact time of Deaths.

but where it goes is the question!

they get recycled

Wonder if I'm plastic #1 or #2?

Hey Phil,

This is one of the reasons I refuse to go to church: I would give what money I could afford that week, and not what they tell me I have to give,I have heard of different faiths wanting to see your tax return in order to get their percentage. If the Vatican was to sell all the art pieces they have, they could feed a few 3rd world countries for years to come!

Imo so many people are materialistic, but you don't get to take it with you when you go.....

Sorry to hear about your aunt.

Have a great day!

The sometimes cracked egg,

HUGS,

Sue

that is...if you truly believe what the bible says. Some do and some don't....some believe parts of it and not others. I choose to believe all the bible tells me. It tells me that I am in a restful state in Christ when I die. It tells me that when Jesus returns in the clouds that the dead in Christ will rise first and then those of us that remain alive will meet Him in the air and we will forever be with Him (the rapture). We will receive new glorious bodies like that of our Lord...flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven....there will be a new heaven and a new earth and we will reign as Kings and Priests of our Lord. These are the things the bible says about what will happen when we die and at the end of the age...where we will spend eternity. Be blessed.
Lorrie