Permanent hair loss taxotere
Don't get me wrong: I am happy to be alive and still would have chosen to have the same chemo regardless (4 treatments of Taxotere/Cytoxin). But I am upset that no doctor ever told me it was a possibility that my hair wouldn't ALL grow back or be thin. If there is anyone else out there like me, I would like to hear from you.
Ohilly
Comments
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Dear Ohilly,
My mom was on
Dear Ohilly,
My mom was on the same cocktail as you and while the hair on her head came back, she never did have eyebrows or eyelashes. The hair on her head was very thick before the chemo, and it never came back as thick as it was before, but does not sound as thin as yours. But her eyebrows were never the same. She literally only had about five hairs on each side for eyebrows, she was good with makeup and drew them on, but she did look odd without any makeup. And her poor eyelashes, again, only about two or three on each side.
In the pamphlets they gave us before her chemo, they told us that permanent hair loss was a possibility, but we never want to think we'll be 'the one' who suffers those consequences. I'm so sorry that you're having to deal with this.0 -
my eyelashes have not grown back yetDawne.Hope said:Dear Ohilly,
My mom was on
Dear Ohilly,
My mom was on the same cocktail as you and while the hair on her head came back, she never did have eyebrows or eyelashes. The hair on her head was very thick before the chemo, and it never came back as thick as it was before, but does not sound as thin as yours. But her eyebrows were never the same. She literally only had about five hairs on each side for eyebrows, she was good with makeup and drew them on, but she did look odd without any makeup. And her poor eyelashes, again, only about two or three on each side.
In the pamphlets they gave us before her chemo, they told us that permanent hair loss was a possibility, but we never want to think we'll be 'the one' who suffers those consequences. I'm so sorry that you're having to deal with this.
even 18 months since I finished Chemo treatment. I never lost all of them but they are not growing back. I am having short, and thin eyelashes plus I cannot wear makeup because my lids got swollen. As for hair they are different texture, very dry and not shiny. I actually link hair texture to Tamoxifen. Do you think that thin hair cold be a result of Arimidex? or lack of estrogen?0 -
FemaraNew Flower said:my eyelashes have not grown back yet
even 18 months since I finished Chemo treatment. I never lost all of them but they are not growing back. I am having short, and thin eyelashes plus I cannot wear makeup because my lids got swollen. As for hair they are different texture, very dry and not shiny. I actually link hair texture to Tamoxifen. Do you think that thin hair cold be a result of Arimidex? or lack of estrogen?
I am on Femara, which also thins hair, so I did think about the lack of estrogen. For a long time I thought it was the Femara doing this to my hair, but then I read things on the internet about Taxotere and permanent hair loss (see www.taxotears.org). It's difficult to know if it was the Taxotere or the Femara, or (my guess) probably both. But in either case, no doctor ever told me permanent hair loss was a possibility.
Ohilly0 -
I am not on Femara and Iohilly said:Femara
I am on Femara, which also thins hair, so I did think about the lack of estrogen. For a long time I thought it was the Femara doing this to my hair, but then I read things on the internet about Taxotere and permanent hair loss (see www.taxotears.org). It's difficult to know if it was the Taxotere or the Femara, or (my guess) probably both. But in either case, no doctor ever told me permanent hair loss was a possibility.
Ohilly
I am not on Femara and I didn't have chemo Ohilly, but, the lack of estrogen can also cause hair loss and thinning. Sorry that this happened to you.0 -
Mine too..Angie2U said:I am not on Femara and I
I am not on Femara and I didn't have chemo Ohilly, but, the lack of estrogen can also cause hair loss and thinning. Sorry that this happened to you.
This is an old thread and we have communicated through email, Ohilly, but my hair is by no means the same. My last chemo was Oct. 2009 and it is now July 2011 and I have to wear my short and with various things to cover my scalp otherwise you can see it through my very fine, thin hair. It is so upsetting. I am only 43 and I feel like I look much older because of my hair. I miss the days when I could just put it up in a pony tail and be on my way. Now I have to buy this messy, expesive powder and makeup stuff to cover up my scalp. No one told me my hair wouldn't come back. THey all look at me like they have no idea why my hair didn't come back. It's very distrubing when these Drs are at a loss and I am left to go about my life looking and feeling like a freak. I am okay with it, then a mess over it all over again. I seriously don't know how much longer I can deal with this. It was easier being bald during the chemo because that is expected. Now I just plain feel like a freak because it was two years ago and my hair is supposed to be back...well it's not. I was on taxotere, carboplatin and herceptin. Took tamoxifen for about a year then went off recently because I got so depressed on it I couldnt function.0 -
There is a bright sidekellyk123 said:Mine too..
This is an old thread and we have communicated through email, Ohilly, but my hair is by no means the same. My last chemo was Oct. 2009 and it is now July 2011 and I have to wear my short and with various things to cover my scalp otherwise you can see it through my very fine, thin hair. It is so upsetting. I am only 43 and I feel like I look much older because of my hair. I miss the days when I could just put it up in a pony tail and be on my way. Now I have to buy this messy, expesive powder and makeup stuff to cover up my scalp. No one told me my hair wouldn't come back. THey all look at me like they have no idea why my hair didn't come back. It's very distrubing when these Drs are at a loss and I am left to go about my life looking and feeling like a freak. I am okay with it, then a mess over it all over again. I seriously don't know how much longer I can deal with this. It was easier being bald during the chemo because that is expected. Now I just plain feel like a freak because it was two years ago and my hair is supposed to be back...well it's not. I was on taxotere, carboplatin and herceptin. Took tamoxifen for about a year then went off recently because I got so depressed on it I couldnt function.
There is a bright side to this ah! you are alive and i think that's what the Dr's are trying to do keep us alive the choice is ours do we want our luscious hair or do we want to be alive don't get me wrong I was feeling the same way I told my husband just yesterday i went out for the "first" without a covering on my head and i was in another town of course and i made the statement i wish it would grow a little more so i wouldn't feel bad when i go out and he looked at me with joy and said "your alive" and i thought about it yes i am and that's the point to all this we go thru.they sell wigs by the tons. Fight like a girl and be happy we're alive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL0 -
hairkellyk123 said:Mine too..
This is an old thread and we have communicated through email, Ohilly, but my hair is by no means the same. My last chemo was Oct. 2009 and it is now July 2011 and I have to wear my short and with various things to cover my scalp otherwise you can see it through my very fine, thin hair. It is so upsetting. I am only 43 and I feel like I look much older because of my hair. I miss the days when I could just put it up in a pony tail and be on my way. Now I have to buy this messy, expesive powder and makeup stuff to cover up my scalp. No one told me my hair wouldn't come back. THey all look at me like they have no idea why my hair didn't come back. It's very distrubing when these Drs are at a loss and I am left to go about my life looking and feeling like a freak. I am okay with it, then a mess over it all over again. I seriously don't know how much longer I can deal with this. It was easier being bald during the chemo because that is expected. Now I just plain feel like a freak because it was two years ago and my hair is supposed to be back...well it's not. I was on taxotere, carboplatin and herceptin. Took tamoxifen for about a year then went off recently because I got so depressed on it I couldnt function.
Hi, Kellyk123. Sorry I haven't been on this site for a long time, and just noticed your post and private messages now.
I can really identify with your feelings about your hair. Yes, my hairdresser did mention she saw some new growth in the front, but I really can't tell myself. I think it's still thinner. My chemo ended in June of 2009 and I am still on Femara. I often wonder when my 5 years are up on Femara if my hair will grow back then because I believe it was the Femara and the lack of estrogen (not the Taxotere) that did this to me.
Although other BC survivors mean well, at least in my case I felt they could not understand because their hair grew back and it was 'just' a temporary loss, whereas ours is permanently affected. It made me feel worse when other women said their hair grew back just fine or even thicker than before, or when people imply we should be grateful that we are even alive and not worry about the hair. Sorry, this was a real loss for me and I can see it's the same for you. I, too, felt I would have dealt with it differently if I had not EXPECTED it to grow back, or if doctors had only told me the truth in the beginning (although I still would have had all the treatment I did, at least I would have known). What kind of 'set me free' is accepting that my hair will never be the same and stopping looking for it to grow back. There was a defining moment after I went to a dermatologist and she told me this. After that I stopped obsessing about it, although I am still sad. It also helped that I used the concealer, HairSoReal or Toppik, which covers up the thin spots pretty well: is this not working for you, or if not, have you tried it? The place to order the products is www.thinninghairsolution.com
Please write to me and let me know how you are doing. I care because I have been there myself.
Ohilly0 -
Common "thread"ohilly said:hair
Hi, Kellyk123. Sorry I haven't been on this site for a long time, and just noticed your post and private messages now.
I can really identify with your feelings about your hair. Yes, my hairdresser did mention she saw some new growth in the front, but I really can't tell myself. I think it's still thinner. My chemo ended in June of 2009 and I am still on Femara. I often wonder when my 5 years are up on Femara if my hair will grow back then because I believe it was the Femara and the lack of estrogen (not the Taxotere) that did this to me.
Although other BC survivors mean well, at least in my case I felt they could not understand because their hair grew back and it was 'just' a temporary loss, whereas ours is permanently affected. It made me feel worse when other women said their hair grew back just fine or even thicker than before, or when people imply we should be grateful that we are even alive and not worry about the hair. Sorry, this was a real loss for me and I can see it's the same for you. I, too, felt I would have dealt with it differently if I had not EXPECTED it to grow back, or if doctors had only told me the truth in the beginning (although I still would have had all the treatment I did, at least I would have known). What kind of 'set me free' is accepting that my hair will never be the same and stopping looking for it to grow back. There was a defining moment after I went to a dermatologist and she told me this. After that I stopped obsessing about it, although I am still sad. It also helped that I used the concealer, HairSoReal or Toppik, which covers up the thin spots pretty well: is this not working for you, or if not, have you tried it? The place to order the products is www.thinninghairsolution.com
Please write to me and let me know how you are doing. I care because I have been there myself.
Ohilly
among the three of us is Taxotere. Ohilly is on Femera, Kelly was on Tamoxifen and I'm on Arimidex. All list alopecia as a side effect, but they're still different drugs. My medical oncologist is suggesting I switch to Femera in 6 months if my hair doesn't get better because she said even though they all have alopecia as a side effect, some women have different side effects on different AIs. I really think it's the Taxotere. She did tell me that any chemotherapy (not just Taxotere) can result is some permanent hair loss. Rarely.
I'll have to ask a woman I know if her sister was on an AI. She did not get all her hair back until 2 years after chemo, but she did get it back. For 2 years after chemo, she would not go out without her wig or a hat.
I'm trying some "snake oil" treatments now. The woman who did my permanent makeup (I have no eyebrows, but my lashes are coming back) insists she can stimulate my hair follicles by "needling" my scalp. www.estellesplace.com. I hold out very little hope for this, but she wanted to try it. She needles my scalp and I apply minoxidil. So if it grows, will it be the needling or the minoxidil or time?
This is sort of like non cancer people not understanding what we go through emotionally with cancer and its treatments. Yes, at least we're alive and I do believe there are worse things than not having hair, but it just plain sucks and is a constant reminder of having had cancer.
Anyone else missing their hair after Taxotere?
Suzanne0 -
Thanks Ohilly. I know youohilly said:hair
Hi, Kellyk123. Sorry I haven't been on this site for a long time, and just noticed your post and private messages now.
I can really identify with your feelings about your hair. Yes, my hairdresser did mention she saw some new growth in the front, but I really can't tell myself. I think it's still thinner. My chemo ended in June of 2009 and I am still on Femara. I often wonder when my 5 years are up on Femara if my hair will grow back then because I believe it was the Femara and the lack of estrogen (not the Taxotere) that did this to me.
Although other BC survivors mean well, at least in my case I felt they could not understand because their hair grew back and it was 'just' a temporary loss, whereas ours is permanently affected. It made me feel worse when other women said their hair grew back just fine or even thicker than before, or when people imply we should be grateful that we are even alive and not worry about the hair. Sorry, this was a real loss for me and I can see it's the same for you. I, too, felt I would have dealt with it differently if I had not EXPECTED it to grow back, or if doctors had only told me the truth in the beginning (although I still would have had all the treatment I did, at least I would have known). What kind of 'set me free' is accepting that my hair will never be the same and stopping looking for it to grow back. There was a defining moment after I went to a dermatologist and she told me this. After that I stopped obsessing about it, although I am still sad. It also helped that I used the concealer, HairSoReal or Toppik, which covers up the thin spots pretty well: is this not working for you, or if not, have you tried it? The place to order the products is www.thinninghairsolution.com
Please write to me and let me know how you are doing. I care because I have been there myself.
Ohilly
Thanks Ohilly. I know you understand and I feel like we had the exact same emotions during the initial realization that something was very wrong when our hair was growing back and the constant search for answers that no one seemed to have. Yes, thank you for the Toppik hair stuff. That has saved me. It's just so messy. I also use the convour...I think it's called. The powder gets all over the bathroom etc. But it does work and I am thankful for that. It's just a constant reminder that I am not back to normal, which is the deeper issue. It does make me upset when people say, well at least you're alive...and, It's only hair...it's not just hair, it's health and the feeling that we are healing...at least for me. Thank you again, Ohilly, for all your help. I really do appreciate it. It's easy to feel very alone when no one can relate to what you're going through.0 -
a few more thoughts about the subjectkellyk123 said:Thanks Ohilly. I know you
Thanks Ohilly. I know you understand and I feel like we had the exact same emotions during the initial realization that something was very wrong when our hair was growing back and the constant search for answers that no one seemed to have. Yes, thank you for the Toppik hair stuff. That has saved me. It's just so messy. I also use the convour...I think it's called. The powder gets all over the bathroom etc. But it does work and I am thankful for that. It's just a constant reminder that I am not back to normal, which is the deeper issue. It does make me upset when people say, well at least you're alive...and, It's only hair...it's not just hair, it's health and the feeling that we are healing...at least for me. Thank you again, Ohilly, for all your help. I really do appreciate it. It's easy to feel very alone when no one can relate to what you're going through.
Kelly, try HairSoReal - it is cheaper than Toppik and I think, less messy. You can order it from www.thinninghairsolution.com
The comment made by someone else (sorry I can't look on the screen to see your name just now) that Taxotere is a common thread between us women who have alopecia got me thinking. I think it would be easier to deal with this side effect as well as others if we only knew WHY. I would be interested to hear from others who suffered permanent hair thinning which drug they think caused this. The reason I think it's the Femara is because I talked to a lot of other women on the Femara who had this same problem.
I also suffered another side effect which was pretty devastating. I became very, very depressed for absolutely no reason, and had to go on anti-depressants for the first time in my life. Yes, I did have a 'reason' to be depressed because I went through the whole cancer experience, but I would start crying and not even be thinking about that. Also, it felt chemical, not situational. Now, two and a half years later, I finally got off the anti-depressants and am fine. But I am still wondering what caused such devastating depression. I think it was: 1.) the Femara - depression is listed as a side effect because of the estrogen loss or 2.) the rapid change my body went through from having a lot of estrogen to almost none when I went on the Femara caused depression.
I am interested to hear from other women if they had these experiences (alopecia and depression) and what they think caused them. I still don't know, and neither does any doctor I talk to.
Thanks!
Ohilly0 -
a few more thoughts about the subjectkellyk123 said:Thanks Ohilly. I know you
Thanks Ohilly. I know you understand and I feel like we had the exact same emotions during the initial realization that something was very wrong when our hair was growing back and the constant search for answers that no one seemed to have. Yes, thank you for the Toppik hair stuff. That has saved me. It's just so messy. I also use the convour...I think it's called. The powder gets all over the bathroom etc. But it does work and I am thankful for that. It's just a constant reminder that I am not back to normal, which is the deeper issue. It does make me upset when people say, well at least you're alive...and, It's only hair...it's not just hair, it's health and the feeling that we are healing...at least for me. Thank you again, Ohilly, for all your help. I really do appreciate it. It's easy to feel very alone when no one can relate to what you're going through.
Kelly, try HairSoReal - it is cheaper than Toppik and I think, less messy. You can order it from www.thinninghairsolution.com
The comment made by someone else (sorry I can't look on the screen to see your name just now) that Taxotere is a common thread between us women who have alopecia got me thinking. I think it would be easier to deal with this side effect as well as others if we only knew WHY. I would be interested to hear from others who suffered permanent hair thinning which drug they think caused this. The reason I think it's the Femara is because I talked to a lot of other women on the Femara who had this same problem.
I also suffered another side effect which was pretty devastating. I became very, very depressed for absolutely no reason, and had to go on anti-depressants for the first time in my life. Yes, I did have a 'reason' to be depressed because I went through the whole cancer experience, but I would start crying and not even be thinking about that. Also, it felt chemical, not situational. Now, two and a half years later, I finally got off the anti-depressants and am fine. But I am still wondering what caused such devastating depression. I think it was: 1.) the Femara - depression is listed as a side effect because of the estrogen loss or 2.) the rapid change my body went through from having a lot of estrogen to almost none when I went on the Femara caused depression.
I am interested to hear from other women if they had these experiences (alopecia and depression) and what they think caused them. I still don't know, and neither does any doctor I talk to.
Thanks!
Ohilly0 -
Yes, I've experienced the same. My hair used to be so thick and now it's like baby hair. My eyebrows have not grown back either. I pencil them in. Anastasia's eyebrow kit is awesome. My eyelashes are tiny and have not grown back to their original length. I used Ovation to thicken my hair. My daughter said she noticed a positive change. But it's been 4 years since my Taxotere treatment, and no luck. I know how you feel, sister. Stay positive. Hugs, Helen0
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almost 30 years
I have a very dear friend that had her first diagnosis of BC in 1982. Her hair never got back to normal. Very thin in front still. It is very frustrating for her. Like everyone else, she expected it to come back after treatment. I am not sure what she tried but she did keep a couple of the wigs from chemo.
I think the hardest part is that it is so noticeable and it is not suppose to happen to women.
Cindy
PS aside from recurrence on the other breast, she has been cancer free for over 23 years!0 -
ovationhelenkay said:Yes, I've experienced the same. My hair used to be so thick and now it's like baby hair. My eyebrows have not grown back either. I pencil them in. Anastasia's eyebrow kit is awesome. My eyelashes are tiny and have not grown back to their original length. I used Ovation to thicken my hair. My daughter said she noticed a positive change. But it's been 4 years since my Taxotere treatment, and no luck. I know how you feel, sister. Stay positive. Hugs, Helen
Hi Helen. I just got ovation and am trying it out. Do you think it's working?
Ohilly,
thanks for the tip on thinning hair solutions. Also, I had the thinning hair and depression as well. I think it is the hormones. Hormones, estrogen specifically, influences our hair growth and mood. I am starting to doubt my hair will ever go back to normal. I was not on femmara, but was on tamoxifen which is an anti-estrogen as well. I have been off of it since May and have seen no difference in my hair. I went off of it because of depression and have not felt much relief in that respect either. I don't think my estrogen has increased being off the tamoxifen because my hot flashes are as bad as ever. I am getting more and more convinced that the lack of estrogen is the reason for the depression and sparse hair. I ordered a lace wig but do not think I will feel comfortable wearing it. I am getting more and more depressed over the hair. I can't shake it no matter what. I think I am mourning the loss of who I was and I feel like I didn't have any warning that this would happen.0 -
Kellykellyk123 said:ovation
Hi Helen. I just got ovation and am trying it out. Do you think it's working?
Ohilly,
thanks for the tip on thinning hair solutions. Also, I had the thinning hair and depression as well. I think it is the hormones. Hormones, estrogen specifically, influences our hair growth and mood. I am starting to doubt my hair will ever go back to normal. I was not on femmara, but was on tamoxifen which is an anti-estrogen as well. I have been off of it since May and have seen no difference in my hair. I went off of it because of depression and have not felt much relief in that respect either. I don't think my estrogen has increased being off the tamoxifen because my hot flashes are as bad as ever. I am getting more and more convinced that the lack of estrogen is the reason for the depression and sparse hair. I ordered a lace wig but do not think I will feel comfortable wearing it. I am getting more and more depressed over the hair. I can't shake it no matter what. I think I am mourning the loss of who I was and I feel like I didn't have any warning that this would happen.
Sorry Kelly,
Please see a therapist, you probably need to take an antidepressant. Chemo has changed the chemistry of our brains and we need help to come back. Medications could help.
Hugs0 -
I cried twice ... trying to post ..mamolady said:almost 30 years
I have a very dear friend that had her first diagnosis of BC in 1982. Her hair never got back to normal. Very thin in front still. It is very frustrating for her. Like everyone else, she expected it to come back after treatment. I am not sure what she tried but she did keep a couple of the wigs from chemo.
I think the hardest part is that it is so noticeable and it is not suppose to happen to women.
Cindy
PS aside from recurrence on the other breast, she has been cancer free for over 23 years!
I agree with everyone .. being hairless - sucks! My eyebrows are thinned -- maybe 10 each brow, lashes not as thick .. My hair -- so so. I see new growth every now, and then with the appearance of new eyebrow hairs -- so there is hope.
I take Biotin vitamins -- and used J/A/S/O/N biotin shampoo -- cheaper purchased on line.
Chemo therapy saved our 'lives' .. I consider my hair issues, just another lingering side effort of chemo.
I am happy to be alive, so no more tears for me.
Vicki Sam0 -
ovationkellyk123 said:ovation
Hi Helen. I just got ovation and am trying it out. Do you think it's working?
Ohilly,
thanks for the tip on thinning hair solutions. Also, I had the thinning hair and depression as well. I think it is the hormones. Hormones, estrogen specifically, influences our hair growth and mood. I am starting to doubt my hair will ever go back to normal. I was not on femmara, but was on tamoxifen which is an anti-estrogen as well. I have been off of it since May and have seen no difference in my hair. I went off of it because of depression and have not felt much relief in that respect either. I don't think my estrogen has increased being off the tamoxifen because my hot flashes are as bad as ever. I am getting more and more convinced that the lack of estrogen is the reason for the depression and sparse hair. I ordered a lace wig but do not think I will feel comfortable wearing it. I am getting more and more depressed over the hair. I can't shake it no matter what. I think I am mourning the loss of who I was and I feel like I didn't have any warning that this would happen.
Kelly, what is ovation and where do you get it?
Is it working?
Ohilly0 -
I've cried more than twiceVickiSam said:I cried twice ... trying to post ..
I agree with everyone .. being hairless - sucks! My eyebrows are thinned -- maybe 10 each brow, lashes not as thick .. My hair -- so so. I see new growth every now, and then with the appearance of new eyebrow hairs -- so there is hope.
I take Biotin vitamins -- and used J/A/S/O/N biotin shampoo -- cheaper purchased on line.
Chemo therapy saved our 'lives' .. I consider my hair issues, just another lingering side effort of chemo.
I am happy to be alive, so no more tears for me.
Vicki Sam
about this hair thing. I don't believe it's going to get any better for me, either. If I were younger, I know I would be devastated. A couple of my friends are sure that my hair is thicker than it was a month ago. It isn't. It's just longer. I haven't given up, but it sucks.
I think it's the chemo(probably Taxotere) not the Arimidex. The reason I think that is because I didn't start sprouting hair at all for over 2 months after chemo and it was always dismal, not like others I've seen. I didn't start Arimidex until 3 1/2 months after my last chemo and it was obvious (to me) that my hair was not making a comeback like it should long before I swallowed that first pill.
The sparse hair is consistent all over my body, not just my head. My eyelashes are short and sparse, but my permanent eye liner helps a lot there. I have 0 eyebrows (didn't have many B4 cancer) and have permanent makeup there, too. It is a wonderful invention. Should have done it before I started chemo.
I don't think there is a product out there that is going to make a difference for me. I think it's either slow in coming back and will in it's own good time, or it's not going to come back at all.
I just wish I'd been warned that this is could be a rare side effect. I still would have had chemo and the only reason this is even remotely ok with me is that I have a great wig that's really flattering and I'm 64, not 34. My heart goes out to you younger women who are dealing with this.
Suzanne0 -
Yes
I had taxotere/carboplaten. Everyone told me my hair, which has always been very fine, would probably grow in thick and curly and maybe even not gray. Yeah, right. I have less hair now than I had before, including a very thin area right in the front. My scalp shines beautifully through it. I thought I was just unlucky. Its good to know I am not alone in this.
Pat0 -
cosmetic solutionspadee6339 said:Yes
I had taxotere/carboplaten. Everyone told me my hair, which has always been very fine, would probably grow in thick and curly and maybe even not gray. Yeah, right. I have less hair now than I had before, including a very thin area right in the front. My scalp shines beautifully through it. I thought I was just unlucky. Its good to know I am not alone in this.
Pat
Pat, as I indicated above, this happened to me too and it really helps to use cosmetic solutions. You will find two concealers, Toppik and HairSoReal, available at www.thinninghairsolution (or solutions, I can't remember). They really work to cover the thin spots.
Ohilly0
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