Ok, Im gonna say it.......returning to intimate relations
but how long is an average time for sex, or is everyone realllllly that different?
Does a sex life exist anymore after all this "treatment" has beaten up the body??
Ive not seen anyone really comment on this. I know that people are worried and caught up with just trying to survive cancer, but when, not if, but when they do, is there sex after
cancer?
Comments
-
Like you already know
Like you already know everyone is different. And for a male i think 50% is mental. But i dont want to brag but i am 53 and married to a 23 year old costarican. She didnt like having sex while i still had my peg tube she was scared it would hurt me. But id say it was 2 to 3 months after radiation ended for me and no problems since pyhsically, mentally i still get depressed once in a while and will seem to lose interest but i can still perform if she needs me but my lack of taking the aggressive side i think confuses her into thinking ive lost interest .When its just my mind over thinking everything and worrying about our 3 year old son , money, etc etc.. add the cancer worries to that stuff and it can seem like its the furtherest thing from my mind, her being 23 she can still remember 4 years ago when we met and it was the first thing on my mind.0 -
comment
To answer you question. Yes everyone is different. My husband has stage IV tonsil cancer and is 55 years old. I have to say, we were intimate throughout his treatment although not as frequent. He is one month out of treatment and we are intimate about once a week. So not too bad. It will get back to normal. Hang in there.0 -
thanks for being candidcarolinagirl67 said:comment
To answer you question. Yes everyone is different. My husband has stage IV tonsil cancer and is 55 years old. I have to say, we were intimate throughout his treatment although not as frequent. He is one month out of treatment and we are intimate about once a week. So not too bad. It will get back to normal. Hang in there.
Thank all of you for being so candid. When he was first diagnosed, but hadnt started treatment, he worried about me kissing him. Since it was all stemming from his mouth. I told him not to be concerned, cancer is not contagious, and all would be fine.
Then he started treatment, I didnt see him until the 2nd week of treatment, and by then dry mouth had set in, he was nausous, so miserable with other side effects already, he got most all that you can get by the 3rd week. You could tell he was disappointed when he said, that it was the furthest thing from his mind. He didnt like thinking that way because he is 61 and still enjoys the fun the same as he always has. But not right now. So I just wondered, like you have said, with men its 50% mental, if he will feel better in some reasonable amount of time after treatment stops. Not for me, Im there no matter. But for guys its different.
I just wondered about how long some of you all began to feel "in the mood" and like the guy you all used to be.0 -
the girlfriendthegirlfriend said:thanks for being candid
Thank all of you for being so candid. When he was first diagnosed, but hadnt started treatment, he worried about me kissing him. Since it was all stemming from his mouth. I told him not to be concerned, cancer is not contagious, and all would be fine.
Then he started treatment, I didnt see him until the 2nd week of treatment, and by then dry mouth had set in, he was nausous, so miserable with other side effects already, he got most all that you can get by the 3rd week. You could tell he was disappointed when he said, that it was the furthest thing from his mind. He didnt like thinking that way because he is 61 and still enjoys the fun the same as he always has. But not right now. So I just wondered, like you have said, with men its 50% mental, if he will feel better in some reasonable amount of time after treatment stops. Not for me, Im there no matter. But for guys its different.
I just wondered about how long some of you all began to feel "in the mood" and like the guy you all used to be.
More than likely things will become normal again - just be prepared for a new normal perhaps. We caregivers want to see our carereceivers recover faster than they possibly can and do need to realize that some things may not be quite the same. PK0 -
the oral sex connection?pk said:the girlfriend
More than likely things will become normal again - just be prepared for a new normal perhaps. We caregivers want to see our carereceivers recover faster than they possibly can and do need to realize that some things may not be quite the same. PK
What I want to know is if you get the cancer, oral cancer, and are HPV positive, did you get it through oral sex, and if so, is that going to change future sexual practice?0 -
Now you've asked the real question!ratface said:the oral sex connection?
What I want to know is if you get the cancer, oral cancer, and are HPV positive, did you get it through oral sex, and if so, is that going to change future sexual practice?
I would LOVE to know if there is anyone out there who has had HPV Squamous that NEVER had oral sex! There is almost NOTHING about this online.
I have read that you could have HPV16 or 18 for some time (years) and have no symptoms and then your immune system gets rid of it. Does that mean you could have gotten it from your mate and now your mate no longer has it? Or could you have gotten it from a kiss 20 years ago and carried it around until it caused throat cancer? If you still have it, can it cause throat cancer again? Not a reoccurance, but another NEW HPV throat cancer? What about oral sex now. Can you get HPV Squamous again from the same person? New person with HPV? Casual kiss? Sharing a drink?
My wife was so concerned about her involvement that she was tested for HPV and was negative. This made it even more confusing. Mine was never diagnosed as HPV Squamous but it just seemed to be the most likely explaination. Besides responding so well to treatment as HPV cancer does. The doctor told me in the beginning to HOPE it was HPV because of the better prognosis. If it was HPV then where did it come from?
This does go along with the original question about sex. If you can't answer these questions then you will have fear of the unknown forever. Definitely fear of oral sex. Be like a smoker being afraid to smoke after lung cancer.
What about the vaccine? They are giving young girls GARDASIL to protect against HPV 16 and 18 so they are not at risk of cervical cancer. HPV Squamous IS cervical cancer in the throat! Men don't have a cervics. Can I get Gardasil so I dont have to worry? So I can return to a normal sex life with my wife.
We NEED more answers about HPV 16 and 18.0 -
I may be the "next best thing"...............JGE said:Now you've asked the real question!
I would LOVE to know if there is anyone out there who has had HPV Squamous that NEVER had oral sex! There is almost NOTHING about this online.
I have read that you could have HPV16 or 18 for some time (years) and have no symptoms and then your immune system gets rid of it. Does that mean you could have gotten it from your mate and now your mate no longer has it? Or could you have gotten it from a kiss 20 years ago and carried it around until it caused throat cancer? If you still have it, can it cause throat cancer again? Not a reoccurance, but another NEW HPV throat cancer? What about oral sex now. Can you get HPV Squamous again from the same person? New person with HPV? Casual kiss? Sharing a drink?
My wife was so concerned about her involvement that she was tested for HPV and was negative. This made it even more confusing. Mine was never diagnosed as HPV Squamous but it just seemed to be the most likely explaination. Besides responding so well to treatment as HPV cancer does. The doctor told me in the beginning to HOPE it was HPV because of the better prognosis. If it was HPV then where did it come from?
This does go along with the original question about sex. If you can't answer these questions then you will have fear of the unknown forever. Definitely fear of oral sex. Be like a smoker being afraid to smoke after lung cancer.
What about the vaccine? They are giving young girls GARDASIL to protect against HPV 16 and 18 so they are not at risk of cervical cancer. HPV Squamous IS cervical cancer in the throat! Men don't have a cervics. Can I get Gardasil so I dont have to worry? So I can return to a normal sex life with my wife.
We NEED more answers about HPV 16 and 18.
My lymph node/neck cancer, as in most cases nowadays, tested positive for HPV 16 in 2007. In fact, the HPV 16 positive finding is what prompted MD Anderson to warn me that the primary tumor most likely was a tonsil, most likely same side. And, yes they were exactly right. Had they not made that HPV 16 finding and told me about the tonsil my cancer probably would have advanced to a much more dangerous level. I think they saved my life.
So, as to the HPV 16, it is the leading cause of cervical cancer in women. In men, the "cervix" is their neck/throat (the word cervix is Latin for Neck.) I am told there are basically 2 ways to contract it.........oral sex with an HPV 16 positive partner, or congenitally from your birth mother in the womb or during your trip through the birth canal.
In my case, two observations: 1) my wife of 39 years is the only person I have had oral sex with and she tested negative, and 2) I was abandoned as a child and many years later looked up my birth family to discover that during the 9 months my birth mother carried me she was arrested several times for prostitution. This would have been late 1940's. Do, do you think there is a chance that she practiced unprotected sex? With me right there in the womb? Might she have been HPV positive? Duhhhhhh!!
From what I read, Squamous Cell Carcinoma is on the rise and certainly in large part due to HPV prevalence. SCC is a leading cause of lung cancer in non-smokers, HNC in non-smokers/non drinkers, etc.
There are many interesting websites you can google. Here are a couple......
http://www.oralcancerfoundation.org/hpv/index.htm
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/144786.php
HPV Positive SCC is truly a good news/bad news situation: Good news is that it has a significantly higher survival rate because it responds much better to treatment.
Stay well..............JK
PS: just had 2 yr. PET scan .........all clear. Thank you God, family, friends, the Medical Community..........and the CSN.
Wahooooooo!!0 -
HPV Positive CancerJGE said:Now you've asked the real question!
I would LOVE to know if there is anyone out there who has had HPV Squamous that NEVER had oral sex! There is almost NOTHING about this online.
I have read that you could have HPV16 or 18 for some time (years) and have no symptoms and then your immune system gets rid of it. Does that mean you could have gotten it from your mate and now your mate no longer has it? Or could you have gotten it from a kiss 20 years ago and carried it around until it caused throat cancer? If you still have it, can it cause throat cancer again? Not a reoccurance, but another NEW HPV throat cancer? What about oral sex now. Can you get HPV Squamous again from the same person? New person with HPV? Casual kiss? Sharing a drink?
My wife was so concerned about her involvement that she was tested for HPV and was negative. This made it even more confusing. Mine was never diagnosed as HPV Squamous but it just seemed to be the most likely explaination. Besides responding so well to treatment as HPV cancer does. The doctor told me in the beginning to HOPE it was HPV because of the better prognosis. If it was HPV then where did it come from?
This does go along with the original question about sex. If you can't answer these questions then you will have fear of the unknown forever. Definitely fear of oral sex. Be like a smoker being afraid to smoke after lung cancer.
What about the vaccine? They are giving young girls GARDASIL to protect against HPV 16 and 18 so they are not at risk of cervical cancer. HPV Squamous IS cervical cancer in the throat! Men don't have a cervics. Can I get Gardasil so I dont have to worry? So I can return to a normal sex life with my wife.
We NEED more answers about HPV 16 and 18.
Previous posts that may prove helpful:
http://csn.cancer.org/node/167887
http://csn.cancer.org/node/158416
One other comment, then I'll put my soapbox away. As to the earlier discussion of sex-after-cancer. Comes and goes with age, disposition, impact of recovery and treatment, etc. BUT, I think it is very clear that we need to shout from the rooftops the importance of practicing safe sex............and yes, safe oral sex. It has become so much more common over the generations (or at least openly admitted), but unfortunately HPV 16 Positive cancer (Cervical and HNC in men) has become so much more common as well. There is an obvious correlation.
Be careful. If you are known to be HPV positive it is your duty to act and protect others accordingly.
JK0 -
You know ...jkinobay said:HPV Positive Cancer
Previous posts that may prove helpful:
http://csn.cancer.org/node/167887
http://csn.cancer.org/node/158416
One other comment, then I'll put my soapbox away. As to the earlier discussion of sex-after-cancer. Comes and goes with age, disposition, impact of recovery and treatment, etc. BUT, I think it is very clear that we need to shout from the rooftops the importance of practicing safe sex............and yes, safe oral sex. It has become so much more common over the generations (or at least openly admitted), but unfortunately HPV 16 Positive cancer (Cervical and HNC in men) has become so much more common as well. There is an obvious correlation.
Be careful. If you are known to be HPV positive it is your duty to act and protect others accordingly.
JK
... I suspect that somewhere, probably in Spain or the south of France, there is painted on the wall of a cave a 30,000-year-old depiction of a couple of Cro-Magnon folks engaging in oral sex. It's not like this is a practice that we've only just discovered.
That said, it is curious how HPV is now such a common cause of throat cancers. I have been faithful to my wife (and she to me) for decades, but my tonsil cancer was caused by HPV. She was tested for HPV, and the tests came up negative.
I could get right evangelistic about the need to vaccinate young men, as well as young women, for HPV. There's no reason anyone should have to go through the hell that I've endured (and many of you here) when it can be prevented with a vaccine.
--Jim in Delaware0 -
Okay Jimdelnative said:You know ...
... I suspect that somewhere, probably in Spain or the south of France, there is painted on the wall of a cave a 30,000-year-old depiction of a couple of Cro-Magnon folks engaging in oral sex. It's not like this is a practice that we've only just discovered.
That said, it is curious how HPV is now such a common cause of throat cancers. I have been faithful to my wife (and she to me) for decades, but my tonsil cancer was caused by HPV. She was tested for HPV, and the tests came up negative.
I could get right evangelistic about the need to vaccinate young men, as well as young women, for HPV. There's no reason anyone should have to go through the hell that I've endured (and many of you here) when it can be prevented with a vaccine.
--Jim in Delaware
You are in a similar situation as I am. Wife of 18 years, wife negative for HPV. Yet here we are survivors of Squamous. So, what do you do? Oral sex with the same person despite the fact that long term monogamous sex was supposed to keep you "safe"? Where did the HPV go? Is it in me? Still? Forever?
Even if you forget about the future of oral sex, what about our wives getting cervical cancer? Possibly from the HPV they had and got rid of OR the HPV that is lurking somewhere and caused our throat cancer. Wouldn't the other partner of a long term relationship where one partner had HPV Squamous be considered high risk for infection themselves?
Also I find it hard to believe that the only transmission is via mouth to genitals. I am sure if the mouth has touched the genitals then the disease can spread mouth to mouth. If you take that one step further, could it be infected mouth to glass or food?
There are holes in what we/doctors know. We need to know... now!0 -
All very trueJGE said:Okay Jim
You are in a similar situation as I am. Wife of 18 years, wife negative for HPV. Yet here we are survivors of Squamous. So, what do you do? Oral sex with the same person despite the fact that long term monogamous sex was supposed to keep you "safe"? Where did the HPV go? Is it in me? Still? Forever?
Even if you forget about the future of oral sex, what about our wives getting cervical cancer? Possibly from the HPV they had and got rid of OR the HPV that is lurking somewhere and caused our throat cancer. Wouldn't the other partner of a long term relationship where one partner had HPV Squamous be considered high risk for infection themselves?
Also I find it hard to believe that the only transmission is via mouth to genitals. I am sure if the mouth has touched the genitals then the disease can spread mouth to mouth. If you take that one step further, could it be infected mouth to glass or food?
There are holes in what we/doctors know. We need to know... now!
My observations after internally debating this issue for 2.5 years:
**A man or woman can contract HPV from their biological mother while in the womb or on the way through the birth canal.
**Once contracted, HPV can remain dormant for many, many years. In the majority of cases HPV-SCC surfaces during the 5th or 6th decade (I was 57), particularly in men.
**Many people go to their graves having been HPV positive all of their life and it never surfaced.
**Better than 80% of the world's population would test positive for at least one of the over 100 strains of HPV. A much smaller percent, thankfully, test for HPV 16 or 18, also referred to as "High Risk".
**I think it common that monogamous partners, one of which is HPV Positive, stay that way. But, as I understand it, for sure it can be passed through bodily fluids.
So, in my case (which sounds common among you already) I got it from my mother, it remained dormant fro 57 years, until then I never knew I had it. My wife and adult children do not have it. Go figure.
Still, I wish that more and more young people knew more about HNC related to HPV and would be careful. Vacinations are a great idea. Abstinance is also a great idea. But it probably all starts with education and that is also a big concern.
Soapbox duly stored.................JK has left the building.0 -
FWIWJGE said:Okay Jim
You are in a similar situation as I am. Wife of 18 years, wife negative for HPV. Yet here we are survivors of Squamous. So, what do you do? Oral sex with the same person despite the fact that long term monogamous sex was supposed to keep you "safe"? Where did the HPV go? Is it in me? Still? Forever?
Even if you forget about the future of oral sex, what about our wives getting cervical cancer? Possibly from the HPV they had and got rid of OR the HPV that is lurking somewhere and caused our throat cancer. Wouldn't the other partner of a long term relationship where one partner had HPV Squamous be considered high risk for infection themselves?
Also I find it hard to believe that the only transmission is via mouth to genitals. I am sure if the mouth has touched the genitals then the disease can spread mouth to mouth. If you take that one step further, could it be infected mouth to glass or food?
There are holes in what we/doctors know. We need to know... now!
My lead doc said to go ahead and make all the whoopee that we want. From some things I've read, it's possible that those of us who got HPV-related throat cancer are genetically predisposed to it: That is, we may have a built-in weakness in fending off the effects of the virus. Our spouses, obviously, did not have that weakness.
But you know what? I'm really not going to worry about it.
Cancer? Been there, done that. Time to move on.
--Jim in Delaware0 -
WOW....delnative said:FWIW
My lead doc said to go ahead and make all the whoopee that we want. From some things I've read, it's possible that those of us who got HPV-related throat cancer are genetically predisposed to it: That is, we may have a built-in weakness in fending off the effects of the virus. Our spouses, obviously, did not have that weakness.
But you know what? I'm really not going to worry about it.
Cancer? Been there, done that. Time to move on.
--Jim in Delaware
I want to thank everyone who contributed to this discussion. I find it fascinating. The first time I even heard about HPV throat cancer, was about six months past my own treatments. It was discussed in a Reader's digest article that I just happened to pick up and see. I couldn't believe what I had read.
My doctors have never mentioned any of this to me. As a woman...am I as subject to this as you guys? Having had my annual Pap test done every year, and pass with flying colors, makes me think I was/am safe.
When I started this journey, I felt very put off by the fact that I had such a "dirty", "smoker & drinker" cancer. I wanted a pink ribbon, damnit!! I didn't want to tell anyone what I had...for fear of judgement..even though everyone I know, knew I never smoked, and was always a wimp when it came to alcohol. Can you imagine me explaining HPV to these same friends? Doubtful!
As I remember..at least in the state of California, 39 years ago, it was mandatory to get a blood test done, before a marriage certificate would be issued. I believe it was a test for communicable disease control. Is this a law, anywhere today? Maybe it should be!
Judy0 -
JudyJudy.2 said:WOW....
I want to thank everyone who contributed to this discussion. I find it fascinating. The first time I even heard about HPV throat cancer, was about six months past my own treatments. It was discussed in a Reader's digest article that I just happened to pick up and see. I couldn't believe what I had read.
My doctors have never mentioned any of this to me. As a woman...am I as subject to this as you guys? Having had my annual Pap test done every year, and pass with flying colors, makes me think I was/am safe.
When I started this journey, I felt very put off by the fact that I had such a "dirty", "smoker & drinker" cancer. I wanted a pink ribbon, damnit!! I didn't want to tell anyone what I had...for fear of judgement..even though everyone I know, knew I never smoked, and was always a wimp when it came to alcohol. Can you imagine me explaining HPV to these same friends? Doubtful!
As I remember..at least in the state of California, 39 years ago, it was mandatory to get a blood test done, before a marriage certificate would be issued. I believe it was a test for communicable disease control. Is this a law, anywhere today? Maybe it should be!
Judy
Please know, and I know that you do, this cancer can affect ANYONE!!!! Yes, some have smoked etc., but many of those who did, quit long ago and many non smokers also suffer from head/neck cancer. There is nothing to be ashamed or embarrassed about. No one is exempt from crisis in their lives. The best we all can do is face it and fight. It's beatable, curable, and your true friends will not judge.0 -
I'm so sorry...pk said:Judy
Please know, and I know that you do, this cancer can affect ANYONE!!!! Yes, some have smoked etc., but many of those who did, quit long ago and many non smokers also suffer from head/neck cancer. There is nothing to be ashamed or embarrassed about. No one is exempt from crisis in their lives. The best we all can do is face it and fight. It's beatable, curable, and your true friends will not judge.
If I sounded judgemental. That is not my intent. I just wanted to share the feelings I had, during the first horrible days of shock and disbelief at my diagnosis. I guess, that it came during this time of year, when you see pink ribbons on just about everything, didn't help. I have yet to meet, in person, another woman who has dealt with throat cancer. Sadly, I know many who are dealing with breast cancer. I'll never know if my reaction to my cancer would have been any different had it been in my breast instead of my throat.
Today, I'm proud of my journey, and of my family, friends and doctors who have helped me through it, so far. I'm proud of every throat cancer survivor, HPV or not, that post on this site, and also their care givers. My fear is that, unless our young people do not become educated to this HPV threat, the day will come when it will be more common than breast cancer.
Today, I embrace pink ribbons, Relay for Life, and any other form that fights to end cancer for ALL of us.
Judy0 -
Pap smear and blood testJudy.2 said:WOW....
I want to thank everyone who contributed to this discussion. I find it fascinating. The first time I even heard about HPV throat cancer, was about six months past my own treatments. It was discussed in a Reader's digest article that I just happened to pick up and see. I couldn't believe what I had read.
My doctors have never mentioned any of this to me. As a woman...am I as subject to this as you guys? Having had my annual Pap test done every year, and pass with flying colors, makes me think I was/am safe.
When I started this journey, I felt very put off by the fact that I had such a "dirty", "smoker & drinker" cancer. I wanted a pink ribbon, damnit!! I didn't want to tell anyone what I had...for fear of judgement..even though everyone I know, knew I never smoked, and was always a wimp when it came to alcohol. Can you imagine me explaining HPV to these same friends? Doubtful!
As I remember..at least in the state of California, 39 years ago, it was mandatory to get a blood test done, before a marriage certificate would be issued. I believe it was a test for communicable disease control. Is this a law, anywhere today? Maybe it should be!
Judy
As I understand it the conventional Pap smear does not screen for HPV. It does screen for "abnormal" cell activity which is a red flag that calls for further testing.
There is an HPV-DNA test that can be performed in conjunction with the PAP. But, I don't think it is routinely done unless indicated (i.e. history in family of HPV high risk). You may have to ask for it.
Also, I don't think conventional bloodwork screens for HPV 16 or 18. Again, I think that is done using the DNA tissue cell profiling.
I agree with all of you...................wish the younger generation could/would be more careful. But, quite frankly, I'm on to bigger and better things having walked away from this "train wreck" and darned proud, and very appreciative, to be alive and loving life.
Stay well amigos/amigas...................God Bless from Mexico. JK0 -
Watch thisjkinobay said:Pap smear and blood test
As I understand it the conventional Pap smear does not screen for HPV. It does screen for "abnormal" cell activity which is a red flag that calls for further testing.
There is an HPV-DNA test that can be performed in conjunction with the PAP. But, I don't think it is routinely done unless indicated (i.e. history in family of HPV high risk). You may have to ask for it.
Also, I don't think conventional bloodwork screens for HPV 16 or 18. Again, I think that is done using the DNA tissue cell profiling.
I agree with all of you...................wish the younger generation could/would be more careful. But, quite frankly, I'm on to bigger and better things having walked away from this "train wreck" and darned proud, and very appreciative, to be alive and loving life.
Stay well amigos/amigas...................God Bless from Mexico. JK
HPV Oral Cancer video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJY2ynlXoKA&feature=player_embedded
(Copy and paste the link to your browser address bar up top)0 -
Post Treatment Sex Life
Hello Girlfriend, Great topic! I have only 4 treatments left. I have not felt like having sex since I had the surgery in August. First i looked like Frankenstein, then the tube,radiation and chemo. I just do not feel very "sexy" at the moment. I mean the tube and drymouth will wither anybody's sexual appetite. I am feeling much better, however, I do not see Mr. Romance returning until this tube is out, soon I hope. Overall, I feel confident that my situation will change soon. Alex.0 -
It willlyolan1 said:Post Treatment Sex Life
Hello Girlfriend, Great topic! I have only 4 treatments left. I have not felt like having sex since I had the surgery in August. First i looked like Frankenstein, then the tube,radiation and chemo. I just do not feel very "sexy" at the moment. I mean the tube and drymouth will wither anybody's sexual appetite. I am feeling much better, however, I do not see Mr. Romance returning until this tube is out, soon I hope. Overall, I feel confident that my situation will change soon. Alex.
Actually, Mr. Romance is on a temporary hiatus................he will be back with a passion.............(Pardon the pun).
JK0 -
Im fortunatejkinobay said:Pap smear and blood test
As I understand it the conventional Pap smear does not screen for HPV. It does screen for "abnormal" cell activity which is a red flag that calls for further testing.
There is an HPV-DNA test that can be performed in conjunction with the PAP. But, I don't think it is routinely done unless indicated (i.e. history in family of HPV high risk). You may have to ask for it.
Also, I don't think conventional bloodwork screens for HPV 16 or 18. Again, I think that is done using the DNA tissue cell profiling.
I agree with all of you...................wish the younger generation could/would be more careful. But, quite frankly, I'm on to bigger and better things having walked away from this "train wreck" and darned proud, and very appreciative, to be alive and loving life.
Stay well amigos/amigas...................God Bless from Mexico. JK
my gynocologist does a PAP and HPV test routine now for a couple of years. Both tests or 3, cant remember if its the last 2 or 3 years, mine have been negative, so I felt better when my guy got HNC. I kind of worried that maybe I could have had something to do with its development.0
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