“Is the Immune System Really the Answer to Fighting Cancer?”

PhillieG said:

Thanks John
I'm not a fan of "prejudiced thinking" either.
That's why I don't put down/discount any treatment options, especially those I haven't tried.
-p

"A healthy attitude is contagious but don't wait to catch it from others. Be a carrier"

Thank you, Phil!

I appreciate you pointing out my prejudices..... (?)

Re:
"That's why I don't put down/discount any treatment options,
especially those I haven't tried. -p"

You are right, Phil. I never tried chemotherapy! Which ones
are you suggesting I start with?

But please allow me to remind you:

One needn't stick their hands into red-hot burning coals to
understand the pain and damage that can occur.

While chemical therapy and radiation may be of great benefit
to quickly stop a cancerous tumor from killing the patient, its
arbitrary use to kill single rogue cancer cells is more damaging
than it is worth.

I am not at odds with the entire system, Phil. I am at odds
with the arbitrary overuse of therapies that were not intended
to be used in the manner they presently are being used.

And to that extent Phil, there -are- much better choices to fight
cancer with.

When individuals refuse to explore and learn about any modality
that may actually save their life, it frustrates me.

Most of us simply do not have the time to continue stubborn
prejudices. There is an abundance of information available
regarding Traditional Chinese Medicine; it takes so little
to learn about it's merits.

And Phil..... Even if an individual does not use TCM for their
attempt to stifle cancer, TCM is still able to be of great merit
for remaining healthy during the rigorous treatments of chemo
and radiation.

It is for that reason that TCM is presently being used along with
conventional western medicine cancer treatments.

What more proof and validity is required, than it's use by the
leading institutions?

I can't speak for the other "alternatives", but I do know what
TCM is capable of, and it is extraordinary!

Stay well my friend,

John

tanstaafl said:

timing counts, too
Lisa42 started her naturopathic program after over 3 years of chemo and radiation. Her immune system was already highly compromised for years. The best time for supplements may be day 1 for several reasons. First your immune system is less damaged, for various common deficiencies like vitamin D3 "sooner should be better", the tumor cells less evolved or disturbed, and for colon cancer, there is no neoadjuvant (presurgery chemo) planned as well for several weeks after surgery.

My wife was physically debilitated and nutrient deficient from 3-4 weeks illness and wasting, pre diagnosis. For my wife, she got a 4 week, pre-surgery "trial period" that yielded visible results that we liked immensely, with one major area of tumor necrosis from massive granulocytic attack (wiped out, all the surgeons consulted expect peritoneal carcinomatosis or unspecified pessimism) as well as shrinkage of the primary. And rapid wound healing with minimal opiates for pain (morphine thrown out early on).

What did Lisa42 get so late in the game? Looked to me like she was able to extend her Xeloda-gemcitabine treatments by 4-5-6 months and also improved her quality of life even longer.

I am a little critical of most naturopathic treatment levels because they are often about 1/10 to 1/4 of doses that I see in the original scientific or medical papers on supplements and off label treatments observed with improvement, "full bore". Of course there are reasons, to back off a little, to varying degrees. I suspect that Lisa's supplemental program was likely "low dose" by such measures in the original papers, and less complete than some. However, Lisa wasn't able to identify its composition to us.

Requiescat in pace, Lisa. We miss you so much.

Interesting reading. I even
Interesting reading. I even shut off American idol to get this in before bed time.

Chemo screwed up my feet, my body, my youth, but I am still here.
Supplements I have tried and stopped. Possible reoccurrence after 2.5 years. I will know more next week. I don't want to do start chemo again. I may just say zap it and just continue with my mostly vegan meals.

I had my scan today. Thought I would switch it around and just pray the whole time I was resting, for a miracle.
We shall see.

All I can do fo myself is try and stay healthy and not be a sitting duck, or fish. Got to keep moving.


http://www.youtube.com/embed/nA3LtXnNIto?feature=player_embedded&fb_source=message

I have one major concern about this post
Where is Blake,I'm serious.It's the sort of mental stimulation he enjoys and is good at. I am genuinely concerned by his abcense. Can someone give him a call to see if he is ok? Ron.

Sundanceh said:

Hey John
"The 5-Bones" is retail....after all of the negotiated rates and discounts, my bill should be considerably less than that, fortunately.

I was in there for a routine off-scan consult to check bloodwork, physical exam and general what's up.

I decided to at least take the opportunity to discuss this topic and get his official input. Which is what it was - I did not go seek and setup a consult for the sole purpose of asking this question.

"For the record.... I do not subscribe any of the many "alternatives"
being sold and used by health conscious individuals. They all seem
to be revenue harvesting products and practices, and most without
serious merit biologically or historically."

This was pretty much the gist of the message - the merit was something he mentioned. If it couldn't hurt, one could do it - but he did not ascribe to doing it - and does not want to put me on any of it.

We ran out of time as he was already late for hospital rounds when we sat down, so I did not get the opportunity to discuss TCM, but he said he might email with his opinion...if he does not, I'll catch him in a couple of months when we scan again and do another follow-up consult. I'd be curious as to what he has to say.

I'm rapidly becoming one of those people where "fear about death" from cancer does not have a hold of me like many others, at this point in my journey. I'm getting close to a mindset where I would actually "Welcome" death.

So, I'm not driven by fear to try this and try that...and I'm not out throwing money around chasing after and fighting windmills....I leave that for others.

What I have done is, I have fought a convential WM fight - through skilled surgeons and their staff, I have achieved more years than I should have gotten. The results have extended my life and kept the ball in play.

Chemo, while I rail about it, has undoubtedly had some effect on keeping my cancer in check and in short periods of remission. Radiation has been the heavy hammer of insurance that supposedly seals the deal.

I will read the link that you provided...my oncologist is not a stupid man and is highly respected at our NCI Cancer Institute. He may not be as vaunted or well-known as some other national oncologists, but so far, we have kep all four of my wheels on the road.

I celebrate 8-years of survival in June 2012 - and it's hard to argue with that.

Good health to you as well:)

-Craig

I'm enjoying the thread, Craig!

I still have trouble understanding why your Oncologist feels
that the immune system has little (if anything) to do with the
occurrence of cancer, or with the fight against cancer.

On any medication designed to stifle one's immune system
(methotrexate; all arthritis prescriptions) carry a warning
that it is an immunosuppressant and can open the door to
infections and cancer.

It's almost a "no-brainer" to assume that a weakened
immune system will compromise one's overall health and
leave one vulnerable to the most serious of ailments,
including cancer.

Incidentally, in TCM, western medicine's blood tests -do not-
tell the whole story; the immune system is a bit more complicated
than just having enough white and red cells. An individual can
have a compromised immune system while having great sounding
blood tests. The diagnostics used by the TCM physician is unlike
the diagnostics used in western medicine, and goes much deeper
into one's entire health situation.

There is a growing belief that cancer starts in everyone's body
at one time or another, but the immune system usually removes
that defective cell before it becomes a serious problem.

Some of us have an immune system that ignored the errant
cell (for whatever reason) and that cell began using the fermentation
process for it's life support. The fermentation process is the very
basic reason for a cancer cell's existence; it is the very basic
beginning of the transformation from a good cell, to a rogue cell.

The damaged cell has no brain, no intelligence; it can't out-think
your body or drugs, and it can no longer take orders from your
brain or body.

What it can do (and without thought or preamble), is automatically
begin survival by using fermentation. That basic process takes
no choices, it simply happens; it part of nature.

The cancer cell may or may not uptake more glucose for it's
survival than surrounding normal cells, so using present-day
diagnostics or treatments do not see single cells. The immune
system however, is perfectly capable of isolating and removing
single, defective cells!

So here we are today, reading about the newest "nano-technology"
that is attempting to do what the immune system is best at doing,
yet very little "donations" are used for the advancement for
the betterment of our own natural defense of cancer.

You don't suppose that the profit margin; the proverbial "bottom line"
of corporate revenue, is what sends the billions invested in fancy
"new technology" rather than a natural and free solution?

(I'm too cynical, right?) (where IS Blake??)

In my opinion (along with some oncologists and biologists),
the immune system is where the attention should be directed
if we desire to make cancer a thing of the past.

A healthy immune system may not prevent a damaged cell from
beginning the fermentation process (cancer), but once the
system becomes sensitized to the chemicals of a cancer cell,
a healthy system will be able to do what it was originally
intended to do = remove the defective cell(s).

My bottom line, Craig, is that the immune system is the key
to survival and should be made as healthy as possible. And not
simply "healthy" by blood-test standards.

TCM seeks to accomplish that, while western medicine does not.

There -are- better ways to be healthy, than taking chemically
produced pills.

Please stay well, we need you here!

John

John23 said:

I'm enjoying the thread, Craig!

I still have trouble understanding why your Oncologist feels
that the immune system has little (if anything) to do with the
occurrence of cancer, or with the fight against cancer.

On any medication designed to stifle one's immune system
(methotrexate; all arthritis prescriptions) carry a warning
that it is an immunosuppressant and can open the door to
infections and cancer.

It's almost a "no-brainer" to assume that a weakened
immune system will compromise one's overall health and
leave one vulnerable to the most serious of ailments,
including cancer.

Incidentally, in TCM, western medicine's blood tests -do not-
tell the whole story; the immune system is a bit more complicated
than just having enough white and red cells. An individual can
have a compromised immune system while having great sounding
blood tests. The diagnostics used by the TCM physician is unlike
the diagnostics used in western medicine, and goes much deeper
into one's entire health situation.

There is a growing belief that cancer starts in everyone's body
at one time or another, but the immune system usually removes
that defective cell before it becomes a serious problem.

Some of us have an immune system that ignored the errant
cell (for whatever reason) and that cell began using the fermentation
process for it's life support. The fermentation process is the very
basic reason for a cancer cell's existence; it is the very basic
beginning of the transformation from a good cell, to a rogue cell.

The damaged cell has no brain, no intelligence; it can't out-think
your body or drugs, and it can no longer take orders from your
brain or body.

What it can do (and without thought or preamble), is automatically
begin survival by using fermentation. That basic process takes
no choices, it simply happens; it part of nature.

The cancer cell may or may not uptake more glucose for it's
survival than surrounding normal cells, so using present-day
diagnostics or treatments do not see single cells. The immune
system however, is perfectly capable of isolating and removing
single, defective cells!

So here we are today, reading about the newest "nano-technology"
that is attempting to do what the immune system is best at doing,
yet very little "donations" are used for the advancement for
the betterment of our own natural defense of cancer.

You don't suppose that the profit margin; the proverbial "bottom line"
of corporate revenue, is what sends the billions invested in fancy
"new technology" rather than a natural and free solution?

(I'm too cynical, right?) (where IS Blake??)

In my opinion (along with some oncologists and biologists),
the immune system is where the attention should be directed
if we desire to make cancer a thing of the past.

A healthy immune system may not prevent a damaged cell from
beginning the fermentation process (cancer), but once the
system becomes sensitized to the chemicals of a cancer cell,
a healthy system will be able to do what it was originally
intended to do = remove the defective cell(s).

My bottom line, Craig, is that the immune system is the key
to survival and should be made as healthy as possible. And not
simply "healthy" by blood-test standards.

TCM seeks to accomplish that, while western medicine does not.

There -are- better ways to be healthy, than taking chemically
produced pills.

Please stay well, we need you here!

John

I know I shouldn't butt in
The oncologist logic to me is sound. If cancer is a problem at the molecular DNA level, where the DNA itself is damaged, the immune system does not 'kick-in'. The immune system is not designed to attack it's own cells, and when it does it's not good (auto-immune diseases).
I agree though, that while a strong healthy immune system might not help the fight against cancer (at least not yet), at least you won't die from some normally benign infection.
As a trekkie, I often wondered if the transporter could, in the process of re-assembly, clean the reconstructed body of unhealthy cells. Hmmm ... you heard it here first !

Best

Sundanceh said:

Hey Tans...
Just wanted to thank you for your post. I know you are pretty versed on the X's and O's and i wanted to take this opportunity to thank you for all the information that you have posted with regards to treatment for your wife. I read them and have been listening.

Lisa was hindered by the fact that she could not qualify for surgery - which no doubt would have extended her time. How much we don't know? But, regardless of strength of what she was taking...I just don't enough about that, I know that she was a proponent for trying everything - and it looked like everything to me.

Like you and so many others, I miss her presence on this forum.

-Craig

more important kinds, and sooner
Biochemical entity wise, Lisa was still a ways from "everything", and again sooner is better.

...Lisa was hindered by the fact that she could not qualify for surgery
One of the aspects of what we are doing applied earlier and more broadly, is that it should change the "rules of operability". If you can reasonably stop or reduce metastasis indefinitely and metastatic risks from surgery itself, the rationale for surgery expands into many currently inoperable cases.

Sundanceh said:

Hi Tina...
Thank you for posting. Even after all of these years I've been fighting, it seems like the more I think I know - I find out I know "Less and Less - About More and More."



I'm glad that George is still with us - he's done very well with his plan. I'm glad that he got to retire and spend good quality time with you. That's the thing that's on my mind now and sort of what I want....to retire or be retired by cancer.

More of my days could then be spent pursuing life - I've missed so much of it already - I just blinked and it's all gone by....the last 12-years for me and Kim have just been a blur with time speeding around us like it's the Daytona 500 or something....

I just can't slow it down...

We all reach our own conclusions - and since we're all different, there will be many outcomes, good and bad. Where we each line up is "luck of the draw" sometimes, it sure seems.

What works for one - doesn't work for another...and it's the same analogy regardless of the topic.

I'm glad to see you:) Give George my best!

-Craig

Craig
Love your comment about 12 years slipping away. Before he died at age 87, my father said" It seems like Christmas comes every month." As survivors we should relish evry day no matter what it"s like. I tell my children they wouldn"t recognize the good days if they didn"t have the not-so-good to compare them to. I wish you many more good days