“Is the Immune System Really the Answer to Fighting Cancer?”
Comments
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Hi Tina...geotina said:Hi Craig:
Yep, I read the whole post. My take on all this is - luck of the draw. Some are lucky and some are not. I have felt this way for a very long time and that is why I stay out of most discussions. The comment made a while back by someone in the clear, "I'll have the last laugh" really did it for me and that is generally why I don't post much. She is no longer posting so I guess it is relatively safe to re-enter the room so to speak. She made very mean comments although I don't think that was her intent. I just didn't like the "do as I do or I'll have the last laugh" implications.
My George was diagnosed advanced Stage IV on 3/30/09. He is still here and kicking and driving me nuts. Surgery and chemo and board certified docs that worked so hard for us.
Lisa did it all and that is why I say - Luck of the Draw. Roger - same thing and he died at age 38.
Hugs - Tina
Thank you for posting. Even after all of these years I've been fighting, it seems like the more I think I know - I find out I know "Less and Less - About More and More."
I'm glad that George is still with us - he's done very well with his plan. I'm glad that he got to retire and spend good quality time with you. That's the thing that's on my mind now and sort of what I want....to retire or be retired by cancer.
More of my days could then be spent pursuing life - I've missed so much of it already - I just blinked and it's all gone by....the last 12-years for me and Kim have just been a blur with time speeding around us like it's the Daytona 500 or something....
I just can't slow it down...
We all reach our own conclusions - and since we're all different, there will be many outcomes, good and bad. Where we each line up is "luck of the draw" sometimes, it sure seems.
What works for one - doesn't work for another...and it's the same analogy regardless of the topic.
I'm glad to see you:) Give George my best!
-Craig0 -
Jeffsteveandnat said:great read
I really enjoyed your thoughts on the subject of cancer and what works. I'm so glad you can put thoughts into words and capture what I'm thinking sometimes. Genetics is a real key or else the majority of the unhealthy habit people would be in my shoes. Why am I still around 3 years with stage 4 and the majority of my buddies who started treatment the same time are no longer around. Pray we stay well. Jeff
Hey, man...glad you liked the piece. As people, we just have to be able to label something so that we can wrap our minds around it.
Cancer is more than cause and effect....some obese people never get cancer, while thin folks can....some people smoke and never get lung cancer....and some don't smoke and end up with lung cancer...etc. etc.
With colorectal cancer, the instinct is to label it as a dietary deficiency and by adjusting and compensating, we solve the problem, or so the rationale goes. It's just not the case as I alluded to some of the cases in my post, myself included. If diet were it, I'd be dead right now.
Wondering why you are still here why others perish around you? You're in a good spot now, Jeff...I can see the gears turning in your mind...this is what all of us at some point ask ourselves and try to come to grips with at some point along the way.
The answers are baffling and not forthcoming at the present time.
Just keep your head down and keep moving...I remember when I was at 3-years, seems like several lifetimes ago now....just about set to hit the 8-year mark in June 2012. I hope you'll be here to mark the occasion.
Thank you for responding.
-Craig0 -
Hi T...tommycat said:I know what you mean Tina.
I know what you mean Tina. For some of us here, cancer is (very) active. For others, is it gone, or is it just sleeping?
Maybe you can do things that help or at least make you feel like you have some control, but I suspect it is just the Luck of the Draw.
At the very least, glad to have you all here as part of this communal experience~
I'm glad you are here and a part of this as well....
Thank you for joining this post:)
-c0 -
Interesting.....in thecoloCan said:GERD
repeating myself again
Interesting.....in the "exclusion criteria" I always find those interesting...but they have this one
•CT/MRI scans taken more than 9 weeks before start of first-line oxaliplatin-based standard chemotherapy0 -
Marie...Lovekitties said:Interesting
Dear Craig,
Thank you for sharing your in-depth conversation with your doc about this subject.
I understand the mechanics described about cells not being copied or “downloading” correctly, but what causes that to happen?
After all science seems to indicate that exposure to asbestos, smoking, exposure to toxic waste, and over exposure to the sun (to mention only 4) cause cancer, yet not everyone with those same or greater exposures gets cancer. The zillion dollar question remains what makes the copier go wonkie?
Until we know that answer, those of us who have had a diagnosis of cancer will continue to try to “fix the copier” with whatever we think might work.
But as we all know, there is no guarantee that what seems to work for one will work for all.
So I guess I agree with others here, it is the luck of the draw until science finds the answer.
Hugs,
Marie who loves kitties
As you said, that's the $64,000 question - "what causes it?"
He couldn't really provide me with that answer...he just said that sometimes the body can police it - and other times the system gets out of sync and runs amok...and the result is the proliferation of cancer cells.
If science can solve this - we'll have at least some kind of an answer for cancer.
I'm not holding my breath, can't hold it that long....but I do hope we see continued improvement in surgical techniques and targeted, less invasive therapies that have the potential for result on many, but may or may not work for all.
"We're all different."
It's strange that what makes us "unique" can also put a stranglehold on how any substance can have a varied effect from individual.....from alcohol to aspirin...to surgery recovery time...to the effects of treatments....etc.etc.
Sometimes, I wish we were like a machine with interchangable parts, where one part fit another and it worked like the original did.
But, we're organic - we're human organisms, and as such, subject to all of the fallabilities that can confront us in a lifetime.
Thank you for posting - I appreciate you more than you can imagine.
-Craig0 -
Phil...PhillieG said:Well Put
"Bottom line is, everyone has to do what they feel is right for themselves and should be leary of anyone that claims "their way is the right way" OR someone else's way is the wrong way"
Some people on here post about what they believe is "the answer" yet they themselves have not benefited from what they constantly preach. Cancer is as complex as we are (and as stubborn).
One person's poison* is another persons cure.
Good post Craig and good reply
*people can and do die from overdosing on "natural" (even ancient) remedies.
"One person's poison* is another persons cure"
I like that analogy, Phil...reminds me of Paul Simon's lyrics..."One man's ceiling - is another man's floor."
LOL!
We all know that there is only "A Way" - not one way. One-way is for street signs.
Thanks for stopping out and replying on this post.
-Craig0 -
GreggSundanceh said:Phil...
"One person's poison* is another persons cure"
I like that analogy, Phil...reminds me of Paul Simon's lyrics..."One man's ceiling - is another man's floor."
LOL!
We all know that there is only "A Way" - not one way. One-way is for street signs.
Thanks for stopping out and replying on this post.
-Craig
It's been said many times and many ways. Also, there is no "One Size Fits All" except Frank Zappa's album
There's probably as many ways to beat cancer as there are ways to get cancer...
-Ralph0 -
Hey Jeff...janderson1964 said:Great post Craig. Thank you
Great post Craig. Thank you so much again for your time and thoughts. I do not take supplements but eat a mostly organic vegetable based diet. Most of what I eat and juice is based on foods that are believed to fight cancer such as tumeric. Many of these foods are being researched by the big cancer centers. It also gives me piece of mind that I am doing all that I can. I am not saying that my way is right or wrong but it gives me a positive attitude and helps me sleep a little better at night.
Also I agree with you about surgery. I think without surgery non of us have a fighting chance no matter what we or the oncologist do. I would rather go through 10 surgeries than one round of chemo but somehow it seems to be just the opposite.
Chemo just seems so barbaric but yet I keep agreeing to do it although last time (4 years ago) I got to my 10th treatment and told the oncologist I had enough. I might do the same this time once my scan comes back clean.
Dealing with this damn disease seams like a big guessing game not just for us survivors but for the whole medical industry.
I was hoping to see you in the neighborhood:)
Yes, I'm a big surgery or surgical procedure guy myself..."slice and dice" me, but I fare better going that direction than having to endure more chemo and radiation.
Alot of our cancer fights are determined by attrition - eventually, we just give in when our bodies have had enough. I know when I finished up the last fight (11mos) that I was on the ropes - I posted about it twice....a radiation post - and the chemo wars post that you just read.
I honestly think that another dose of either those at just the right time, and it would have been "Timber." It just gets to the point where the treatment is worse than the disease itself.
And while I may have endured and made it, the product of what would be left of me, was the most paramount thing on my mind - not if I was going to die - but just if I felt like or even could get up the next morning.
Possibly faced with #4, my thoughts drift to which way to go now...surgery or something along the lines would need to be an option, or things would begin to turn the other way.
I don't think I have what's left to pick up another long-term chemo battle...that folfiri beat me down like nothing else in my life, short of radiation - those are just both krytonite to me.
I had you in the back of my mind when I was writing this post....know I read where you did salads 3x a day and mostly a vegan lifestyle....and I then I thought of you and your 3 liver resections and now with a recurrence after all of these years...and you're a healthy guy.
Believe me when I tell you, that your story has spoken volumes to me - I'm glad to have another long-timer around me like you to talk with. Yours is yet another example of how dietary can make you healthier, but not necessarily quell the cancer.
And that's important to keep in mind...I think it helps tremendously with decisions that folks that reach our stage have to contend with.
With our minds and bodies beaten and ravaged from years of surgeries and cruel treatments, we can no longer just throw strength and muscle at the problem - we've got to fight smarter, not harder.
And while surgery and treatment loom as possibilites, there will come a point where that is no longer a real-option for the old-timer...and then some heavier decisions will have to be made.
But, you and I both will have some time to mull that all over. Thanks for posting, Jeff - continued luck in finishing up your treatments - you're almost there - and then you can rest with me:)
-Craig0 -
Hi JohnJohn23 said:Craig--
A $500 opinion is still an opinion, although more costly than
the "street variety".
"Immunotherapy" is not frowned upon or denounced by any of the
finest of the physicians, regarding cancer. In fact, Immunotherapy
is being considered as the only possible way to cure cancer, if
the concept can be perfected.
Your $500 oncologist's opinion that the immune system has
little (if any) control over cancer should warrant you a refund in
total! They would not cease the administration of chemotherapy
when a patient's immune system has been compromised, if the
immune system did not matter in the producing of "second cancers"
related to the chemotherapy drugs.
I would not have expected much more of an "opinion" from
any oncologist......
For the record.... I do not subscribe any of the many "alternatives"
being sold and used by health conscious individuals. They all seem
to be revenue harvesting products and practices, and most without
serious merit biologically or historically.
I do advocate the use of Traditional Chinese Medicine, and the
herbal treatments therein. It is bolstered by several thousand years
of practice, is not costly, and is not something that's taken for
one's lifetime.
The fact that many of the leading institutions are utilizing TCM
in their treatment plans, should at least give some realization
to the benefits that can be afforded from TCM.
Dietary changes from a worse-case scenario to something more
substantial health-wise, is never a "bad thing", but doubtful that
it can do anything for the control of cancer.
When cancer patients allow the fear of cancer and death to
lead them, it all too often leads to the expenditure of their funds
and a useless loss of time.
Unfortunately, it also too often leads to the arbitrary and prejudiced
discounting of what can do good.
You can't find a cure for the incurable, if you only look where
you've been looking.
There is another way!
Best of health to you!
John
(Edited/added on 4-10-12)
As an addendum....?
I think your oncologist's $500 opinion should be tempered
with some opinions of other respected oncologists. Even a
simple "Google" for:
The role of the immune system and cancer
can produce enough documentation to provide some balance!
Best wishes to all !!
John
A few simple questions to you if I may. Obviously you can choose to answer or not answer:
Q: Has TCM benefitted you personally in your fight with cancer?
Q: If so, how?
Q: Are you healthier now and in a better condition because of using TCM to treat your cancer?
I certainly know your are a strong advocate of TCM (which is great! We need to hear from all fronts) yet there are rarely (never?) any personal accounts of how it's helped you. I know it's been around for thousands of years and has had much success in the treatment of many conditions. Yet is seems to remain this elusive concept whenever it's mentioned on here by anyone. I don't mean to sound like I'm asking for proof that something works because I know there's no proof of anything other than that we are born, we live, and we die and maybe even that's just an illusion!
The facts/stories about the dangers of western medicine are quick to be posted yet when it comes to TCM and how it's the road to follow, it's just talked about like this vague conceptual entity that has a following yet any specifics about it are rare. I am NOT discounting it's benefits, I'm sure there are many. This probably isn't the type of site where that information will be posted any time soon.
It's become sort of Myth-like on here. I know it exists and I know it's helped people.
I just haven't met anyone yet, I just hear stories...
-phil0 -
I am looking forward toSundanceh said:Hey Jeff...
I was hoping to see you in the neighborhood:)
Yes, I'm a big surgery or surgical procedure guy myself..."slice and dice" me, but I fare better going that direction than having to endure more chemo and radiation.
Alot of our cancer fights are determined by attrition - eventually, we just give in when our bodies have had enough. I know when I finished up the last fight (11mos) that I was on the ropes - I posted about it twice....a radiation post - and the chemo wars post that you just read.
I honestly think that another dose of either those at just the right time, and it would have been "Timber." It just gets to the point where the treatment is worse than the disease itself.
And while I may have endured and made it, the product of what would be left of me, was the most paramount thing on my mind - not if I was going to die - but just if I felt like or even could get up the next morning.
Possibly faced with #4, my thoughts drift to which way to go now...surgery or something along the lines would need to be an option, or things would begin to turn the other way.
I don't think I have what's left to pick up another long-term chemo battle...that folfiri beat me down like nothing else in my life, short of radiation - those are just both krytonite to me.
I had you in the back of my mind when I was writing this post....know I read where you did salads 3x a day and mostly a vegan lifestyle....and I then I thought of you and your 3 liver resections and now with a recurrence after all of these years...and you're a healthy guy.
Believe me when I tell you, that your story has spoken volumes to me - I'm glad to have another long-timer around me like you to talk with. Yours is yet another example of how dietary can make you healthier, but not necessarily quell the cancer.
And that's important to keep in mind...I think it helps tremendously with decisions that folks that reach our stage have to contend with.
With our minds and bodies beaten and ravaged from years of surgeries and cruel treatments, we can no longer just throw strength and muscle at the problem - we've got to fight smarter, not harder.
And while surgery and treatment loom as possibilites, there will come a point where that is no longer a real-option for the old-timer...and then some heavier decisions will have to be made.
But, you and I both will have some time to mull that all over. Thanks for posting, Jeff - continued luck in finishing up your treatments - you're almost there - and then you can rest with me:)
-Craig
I am looking forward to resting with you. The irrinotecan is really beating the HELL out of me. I hate it but is hard to know when to stp since it is all such a big guessing game.0 -
Great thoughts
Craig,
A conumdrum indeed. My wife and I were discussing this yesterday. To me, this disease forces you to make choices which have a serious penalty for failure and unknown success. Do you put yourself in the hands of doctors, seek alternatives, or strike a balance between the two? And in the end, can you live with your choice? It is life sped-up.
Best to you.0 -
Also on organic plant dietjanderson1964 said:Great post Craig. Thank you
Great post Craig. Thank you so much again for your time and thoughts. I do not take supplements but eat a mostly organic vegetable based diet. Most of what I eat and juice is based on foods that are believed to fight cancer such as tumeric. Many of these foods are being researched by the big cancer centers. It also gives me piece of mind that I am doing all that I can. I am not saying that my way is right or wrong but it gives me a positive attitude and helps me sleep a little better at night.
Also I agree with you about surgery. I think without surgery non of us have a fighting chance no matter what we or the oncologist do. I would rather go through 10 surgeries than one round of chemo but somehow it seems to be just the opposite.
Chemo just seems so barbaric but yet I keep agreeing to do it although last time (4 years ago) I got to my 10th treatment and told the oncologist I had enough. I might do the same this time once my scan comes back clean.
Dealing with this damn disease seams like a big guessing game not just for us survivors but for the whole medical industry.
My husband and I are also eating a whole food plant based diet. Our
lifestyle changes might not stop cancer from returning but feel we are
trying everything possible that might make a difference.
I have to wonder about the time my husband was on chemo, when we
met a lady who also was on chemo for colon cancer. At the time I thought
she had a much better chance than my husband for becoming ned.
She is about 20 years younger and had one lymph node positive.
My husband had 7 nodes positive. Cancer came back on her soon after
she finished chemo. It hurt to see her getting chemo again.
You get very close to people going through the same as you.
Did our diet make a difference? No answer for that.
My husband is still ned.
Linda0 -
Craig and everyone, not my way, not your way but our wayjanderson1964 said:I am looking forward to
I am looking forward to resting with you. The irrinotecan is really beating the HELL out of me. I hate it but is hard to know when to stp since it is all such a big guessing game.
Our way is to share and care.
I am a vegan, beach bum hippie living on organic raw foods, juicing, meditating and still setting up my beach front campsite, with cyclonic winds.
I have had well over 20 different treatment opinions from West, east and in between and some yes from outer space. All well meaning and different.
Was a contender for the guineas book of records on supplements, but am easing up in my in myw age approach to, during my vegan experiment.
I love the post , all the great replies and everyone here who cares and shares.
Hugs,
Pete
Ps diet is my focus at present, the windmills turning as fast as ever. The fun is in the Chase.
Life is just to fantastic for me to trust one doctor's opinion especially when those opinions steal one's hope. Is life without hope worth living?0 -
I know with me, most of thehere4lfe said:Great thoughts
Craig,
A conumdrum indeed. My wife and I were discussing this yesterday. To me, this disease forces you to make choices which have a serious penalty for failure and unknown success. Do you put yourself in the hands of doctors, seek alternatives, or strike a balance between the two? And in the end, can you live with your choice? It is life sped-up.
Best to you.
I know with me, most of the supplements I'm trying they have tried on mice in the lab and for whatever reason it has interfered with the cancer growth or spread....I'm of course trying to boost my immune system with good things...but my approach is mostly to somehow try and interfere with mets.....like the cimitidine along with herbals I'm trying. Whether they work or not on me, who knows.....I know I'd rather be doing this than sitting in a chemo. chair...so far so good, for how long, who knows. Livin scan to scan sucks!! Tomorrow I have surgeon appt., only if this last scan was good would he consider a colonoscopy....so I suppose that's probably a go now. If colonscopy finds something what then?? Does turmeric turn your insides orange??? Or I may be died green from the veggie greens....guess I'll know if I hear someone go "WTF"!!!0 -
Diet -Try ittoyfox said:Also on organic plant diet
My husband and I are also eating a whole food plant based diet. Our
lifestyle changes might not stop cancer from returning but feel we are
trying everything possible that might make a difference.
I have to wonder about the time my husband was on chemo, when we
met a lady who also was on chemo for colon cancer. At the time I thought
she had a much better chance than my husband for becoming ned.
She is about 20 years younger and had one lymph node positive.
My husband had 7 nodes positive. Cancer came back on her soon after
she finished chemo. It hurt to see her getting chemo again.
You get very close to people going through the same as you.
Did our diet make a difference? No answer for that.
My husband is still ned.
Linda
I don't believe that a good, healthy, organic diet can harm anyone who can eat food. Does it help keep cancer away?
Possibly. Can one prove it? Probably not. No more than anyone can prove anything. I would bet it helps more than cheeseburgers and fries do but I'm sure someone knows someone who has a cousin whose friend's brother-in-law ate Fritos and drank Jack Daniels while chain-smoking cigars and he lived to be 100.
He might have made it to 110 if he didn't eat the Fritos...0 -
Well Puthere4lfe said:Great thoughts
Craig,
A conumdrum indeed. My wife and I were discussing this yesterday. To me, this disease forces you to make choices which have a serious penalty for failure and unknown success. Do you put yourself in the hands of doctors, seek alternatives, or strike a balance between the two? And in the end, can you live with your choice? It is life sped-up.
Best to you.
Very well put... It does come down to being comfortable with your choice. Hopefully one makes good choices.0 -
Phil - -PhillieG said:Hi John
A few simple questions to you if I may. Obviously you can choose to answer or not answer:
Q: Has TCM benefitted you personally in your fight with cancer?
Q: If so, how?
Q: Are you healthier now and in a better condition because of using TCM to treat your cancer?
I certainly know your are a strong advocate of TCM (which is great! We need to hear from all fronts) yet there are rarely (never?) any personal accounts of how it's helped you. I know it's been around for thousands of years and has had much success in the treatment of many conditions. Yet is seems to remain this elusive concept whenever it's mentioned on here by anyone. I don't mean to sound like I'm asking for proof that something works because I know there's no proof of anything other than that we are born, we live, and we die and maybe even that's just an illusion!
The facts/stories about the dangers of western medicine are quick to be posted yet when it comes to TCM and how it's the road to follow, it's just talked about like this vague conceptual entity that has a following yet any specifics about it are rare. I am NOT discounting it's benefits, I'm sure there are many. This probably isn't the type of site where that information will be posted any time soon.
It's become sort of Myth-like on here. I know it exists and I know it's helped people.
I just haven't met anyone yet, I just hear stories...
-phil
Re:
"A few simple questions to you if I may. Obviously you can choose to answer or not answer:
Q: Has TCM benefitted you personally in your fight with cancer? "
Yes
"Q: If so, how?"
I am still here after DX in 2006, with never having chemo or radiation treatments,
or suffering the side-effects of either.
"Q: Are you healthier now and in a better condition because of using TCM to treat your cancer? "
Obviously I am.
My suffering comes from the surgical procedures, the absence of
most of my digestive tract due to those faulty procedures, and the
inability of my body to absorb what is needed to sustain life.
Although TCM can't fix the mess left from faulty surgical procedures,
it has provided me with tools to remove blood clots, disintegrate
kidney stones, and help maintain a healthy liver; there are no (0)
pharmaceuticals in western medicine to accomplish the aforementioned
as safely as the herbal treatments.
I really have trouble understanding the prejudiced thinking regarding
Traditional Chinese Medicine. I suppose those that worry about making
"wrong choices" will recite the industry's mantra about "tests" and
"trials", and totally disregard the few thousand years of fairly successful
treatment records.
No modality is perfect; no one modality may fit all.... But given
the choice of highly toxic carcinogenic chemicals, or safe natural herbal
prescriptions, why would one be afraid of what does no harm and
opt to take chemicals that may kill them?
I wish more individuals would at least take the time to learn about
Traditional Chinese Medicine before writing it off as just so much
"snake oil sales talk". TCM is a science that has been around
thousands of years longer than any western medicine approach to
the health sciences.
"Where there is no vision, the people perish"
Be well,
John0 -
Thanks JohnJohn23 said:Phil - -
Re:
"A few simple questions to you if I may. Obviously you can choose to answer or not answer:
Q: Has TCM benefitted you personally in your fight with cancer? "
Yes
"Q: If so, how?"
I am still here after DX in 2006, with never having chemo or radiation treatments,
or suffering the side-effects of either.
"Q: Are you healthier now and in a better condition because of using TCM to treat your cancer? "
Obviously I am.
My suffering comes from the surgical procedures, the absence of
most of my digestive tract due to those faulty procedures, and the
inability of my body to absorb what is needed to sustain life.
Although TCM can't fix the mess left from faulty surgical procedures,
it has provided me with tools to remove blood clots, disintegrate
kidney stones, and help maintain a healthy liver; there are no (0)
pharmaceuticals in western medicine to accomplish the aforementioned
as safely as the herbal treatments.
I really have trouble understanding the prejudiced thinking regarding
Traditional Chinese Medicine. I suppose those that worry about making
"wrong choices" will recite the industry's mantra about "tests" and
"trials", and totally disregard the few thousand years of fairly successful
treatment records.
No modality is perfect; no one modality may fit all.... But given
the choice of highly toxic carcinogenic chemicals, or safe natural herbal
prescriptions, why would one be afraid of what does no harm and
opt to take chemicals that may kill them?
I wish more individuals would at least take the time to learn about
Traditional Chinese Medicine before writing it off as just so much
"snake oil sales talk". TCM is a science that has been around
thousands of years longer than any western medicine approach to
the health sciences.
"Where there is no vision, the people perish"
Be well,
John
I'm not a fan of "prejudiced thinking" either.
That's why I don't put down/discount any treatment options, especially those I haven't tried.
-p
"A healthy attitude is contagious but don't wait to catch it from others. Be a carrier"0 -
timing counts, too
Lisa42 started her naturopathic program after over 3 years of chemo and radiation. Her immune system was already highly compromised for years. The best time for supplements may be day 1 for several reasons. First your immune system is less damaged, for various common deficiencies like vitamin D3 "sooner should be better", the tumor cells less evolved or disturbed, and for colon cancer, there is no neoadjuvant (presurgery chemo) planned as well for several weeks after surgery.
My wife was physically debilitated and nutrient deficient from 3-4 weeks illness and wasting, pre diagnosis. For my wife, she got a 4 week, pre-surgery "trial period" that yielded visible results that we liked immensely, with one major area of tumor necrosis from massive granulocytic attack (wiped out, all the surgeons consulted expect peritoneal carcinomatosis or unspecified pessimism) as well as shrinkage of the primary. And rapid wound healing with minimal opiates for pain (morphine thrown out early on).
What did Lisa42 get so late in the game? Looked to me like she was able to extend her Xeloda-gemcitabine treatments by 4-5-6 months and also improved her quality of life even longer.
I am a little critical of most naturopathic treatment levels because they are often about 1/10 to 1/4 of doses that I see in the original scientific or medical papers on supplements and off label treatments observed with improvement, "full bore". Of course there are reasons, to back off a little, to varying degrees. I suspect that Lisa's supplemental program was likely "low dose" by such measures in the original papers, and less complete than some. However, Lisa wasn't able to identify its composition to us.
Requiescat in pace, Lisa. We miss you so much.0
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