How old is Cancer
Comments
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bravoHal61 said:About a year and a half
Like Sweet said, it’s probably old as cellular division. IMHP, no conspiracy, just as no conspiracy needed to keep us eating McDonald’s or watching too much TV. We are better off than we used to be, but, our medical course is fixed, and that is a problem. As suggested, sedentary lifestyles, etc., could be factors, but cancer was here long before fast food and the Western lifestyle. Someone recently suggested a book I read a synopsis of; it was the “King of Diseases” or something to that effect. I don’t know. I think it’s the natural downside of the development of complex organisms, a recurring accident. With no good reason, I think there is a cure, some way to stop the wayward cellular path. Until then, I wish us all the minimum of problems from the disease and the cure. It’s older than Hondo’s dog, and that dog is at least a zillion.
Hal
well said!
Take care,
Joe0 -
"How long has this been going on?"
(Marvin Gaye reference)
I am not a scientist, I am not a biochemist or an anthropologist or a doctor of any sort, and so my knowledge of cancer and of its history and of our history is tainted by the limited extent of my education and experience. That said up front, here is what I think about the age and nature of cancer, for what it's worth:
Cancer is older than man. Without cancer, there would not be man. Cancer is about the mutation of cells. Evolution is about the mutation of cells. In the former case, at least from our observation posts, those mutations are bad, some call them evil (although they really have no morality and are only doing what they are programmed to do), and they cause illness and death. In the latter case, these mutations have given us lovely birds, exquisite butterflies, and any number of animals and plants, large and small, fast and slow, sea-bound and born-for-the-sky, strong and weak. In the latter case, these mutations have permitted the evolution of man into what he is today, fortunately, I think, a being that has evolved to the point that he/she is beginning to solve the riddle of the mutations we do not want, a being that has evolved to the point that he can sometimes arrest his own mutations, can modify their course, their progress, to extend life.
Ultimately, this evolved species will figure out how to prevent cancer, I believe, in my life time, for many of us (if I don't get run over by a bus tomorrow, which is why I am staying inside: for your sakes!).
Those of us who speak of conspiracies and efforts to control the discoveries of cures or vaccines simply have not been studying history. It is in our nature to learn how to survive and to pass that along to others of our species. We may have invented money, but we did not invent the need to survive. That precedes us.
And so does cancer. Because mutation does.
A simple opinion, I know.
Take care,
Joe0 -
Sir Aurthur Clarke. Reading his books as a kid was magical.soccerfreaks said:a space odyssey
Really enjoyed the post! Mr. Clarke was, himself, a magician of sorts, wasn't he?
Take care,
Joe
He was really a visionary and futurist. (I cannot believe my parents let me read Clarke, Heinlein, and Asimov when I was a kid. Those 3 were my science fix, while Tolkein, C S Lewis, Eddings, and Brooks supplied the fantasy. What 5th grader does a book report on The Hobbit. Yep. That would be me.) Clarke's contribution to geostationary satellites (and orbit) cannot be overstated.
Used to love his Mysterious Universe program. He'd always be on the beach in Sri Lanka, with that awesome telescope he had. I wanted that thing. Yep. Go ahead. Say it. Geek. That's me. ;-)0 -
Joe ~ The Music Mansoccerfreaks said:hmmmm
It is so refreshing to hear from folks that are not just 'yes men' for the current cause (or because they want people to like them?).
Skiffen has it right when he suggests it is a matter of choices, and you reiterate that in a splendid way.
Take care,
Joe
Hi Joe, haven't seen much of you lately so I presume all is as well as can be for you and your lovely wife...
Best,
John0 -
Skiffin16 said:
Joe ~ The Music Man
Hi Joe, haven't seen much of you lately so I presume all is as well as can be for you and your lovely wife...
Best,
John
As I made my response to the original post, John, I was thinking of you and compelled myself to include a musical reference in the title.
All is well, John. ENT Man, at last visit (5+ years since diagnosis) said "If you need me, you know where to find me."
And I am 3.5+ years out from the lung cancer diagnosis and NED.
All is well. I still read the head/neck and lung cancer forums consistently but the answers are getting to be such that I feel no need to respond. The head/neck forum, in particular, seems to me to have become much more active with what I perceive to be a lot more commitment and engagement from more members, especially ones such as yourself.
I am hopeful that all is well with you and with your family, too, John!
Take care,
Joe0 -
same clubsweetblood22 said:Sir Aurthur Clarke. Reading his books as a kid was magical.
He was really a visionary and futurist. (I cannot believe my parents let me read Clarke, Heinlein, and Asimov when I was a kid. Those 3 were my science fix, while Tolkein, C S Lewis, Eddings, and Brooks supplied the fantasy. What 5th grader does a book report on The Hobbit. Yep. That would be me.) Clarke's contribution to geostationary satellites (and orbit) cannot be overstated.
Used to love his Mysterious Universe program. He'd always be on the beach in Sri Lanka, with that awesome telescope he had. I wanted that thing. Yep. Go ahead. Say it. Geek. That's me. ;-)
As sixth grader did report on Clarke's 2001: A Space Odyssey, in particular, but in conjunction with a number of other books he'd written, about his apparent fascination with the fourth dimension (time). I also read Asimov, Heinlein and Tolkein, along with a number of others including Ursula LeGuin, Andre Norton, and eventually Frank Herbert, and the next line, especially, my favorite, Harlan Ellison.
You are not alone.
Take care,
Joe0 -
Hi Joesoccerfreaks said:"How long has this been going on?"
(Marvin Gaye reference)
I am not a scientist, I am not a biochemist or an anthropologist or a doctor of any sort, and so my knowledge of cancer and of its history and of our history is tainted by the limited extent of my education and experience. That said up front, here is what I think about the age and nature of cancer, for what it's worth:
Cancer is older than man. Without cancer, there would not be man. Cancer is about the mutation of cells. Evolution is about the mutation of cells. In the former case, at least from our observation posts, those mutations are bad, some call them evil (although they really have no morality and are only doing what they are programmed to do), and they cause illness and death. In the latter case, these mutations have given us lovely birds, exquisite butterflies, and any number of animals and plants, large and small, fast and slow, sea-bound and born-for-the-sky, strong and weak. In the latter case, these mutations have permitted the evolution of man into what he is today, fortunately, I think, a being that has evolved to the point that he/she is beginning to solve the riddle of the mutations we do not want, a being that has evolved to the point that he can sometimes arrest his own mutations, can modify their course, their progress, to extend life.
Ultimately, this evolved species will figure out how to prevent cancer, I believe, in my life time, for many of us (if I don't get run over by a bus tomorrow, which is why I am staying inside: for your sakes!).
Those of us who speak of conspiracies and efforts to control the discoveries of cures or vaccines simply have not been studying history. It is in our nature to learn how to survive and to pass that along to others of our species. We may have invented money, but we did not invent the need to survive. That precedes us.
And so does cancer. Because mutation does.
A simple opinion, I know.
Take care,
Joe
I guess anything is possible, Mutation being part of the changes of the genomic sequence of the DNA whether for the better or worse in mankind, who really knows.
Not sue about the Bus but I do try and stay away from Rail Road Tracks. lol
Wishing you well
Hondo0 -
Thanks Joesoccerfreaks said:
As I made my response to the original post, John, I was thinking of you and compelled myself to include a musical reference in the title.
All is well, John. ENT Man, at last visit (5+ years since diagnosis) said "If you need me, you know where to find me."
And I am 3.5+ years out from the lung cancer diagnosis and NED.
All is well. I still read the head/neck and lung cancer forums consistently but the answers are getting to be such that I feel no need to respond. The head/neck forum, in particular, seems to me to have become much more active with what I perceive to be a lot more commitment and engagement from more members, especially ones such as yourself.
I am hopeful that all is well with you and with your family, too, John!
Take care,
Joe
But you are also one that has been here for a long time, always offering great insight, new ideas and ways of observation.
All is well on this end also.
JG0 -
Emperor of all MaladiesHondo said:Hi Joe
I guess anything is possible, Mutation being part of the changes of the genomic sequence of the DNA whether for the better or worse in mankind, who really knows.
Not sue about the Bus but I do try and stay away from Rail Road Tracks. lol
Wishing you well
Hondo
was the name of the recent book about cancer: a "biography". It won a Pulitzer Prize for 2011. I read it and it is fascinating. Some of it is a hard slog for non-scientists but not all. My wife, who has a PhD in Chemistry and who has also taught biology, would find it totally comprehensible. I think that my brother, who is a cancer researcher, recommended it as well.
But what struck me in it was not only that cancer has been here forever but that it has been distinguishable to humans for so long. Also, frankly, there were brave doctors and many many braver patients to whom we owe our survival. They tried things that were often of no help to them, not because the doctors were trying stupid useless things, but because they just didn't know. They thought there was some possibility of it helping and some indications but until there is a real trial, with numbers and statistics and comparisons of how many lives were extended by mere months, then we couldn't have known that injecting us with platinum (cisplatin, carboplatin, ...) would help. I also pity and thank the poor folks who got this before they figured out how to control the nausea (it was nicknamed "Cis-flatten" because that is what it did to you.).
Yes, until a century ago, our expected life span was still in the 40s or 50s and so the many cancers we see today were just not happening yet or did not have enough time to manifest themselves and kill us.
Anyway, enough of a rant from me. This is a good topic. Thanks. Doug0 -
Hi DougGoalie said:Emperor of all Maladies
was the name of the recent book about cancer: a "biography". It won a Pulitzer Prize for 2011. I read it and it is fascinating. Some of it is a hard slog for non-scientists but not all. My wife, who has a PhD in Chemistry and who has also taught biology, would find it totally comprehensible. I think that my brother, who is a cancer researcher, recommended it as well.
But what struck me in it was not only that cancer has been here forever but that it has been distinguishable to humans for so long. Also, frankly, there were brave doctors and many many braver patients to whom we owe our survival. They tried things that were often of no help to them, not because the doctors were trying stupid useless things, but because they just didn't know. They thought there was some possibility of it helping and some indications but until there is a real trial, with numbers and statistics and comparisons of how many lives were extended by mere months, then we couldn't have known that injecting us with platinum (cisplatin, carboplatin, ...) would help. I also pity and thank the poor folks who got this before they figured out how to control the nausea (it was nicknamed "Cis-flatten" because that is what it did to you.).
Yes, until a century ago, our expected life span was still in the 40s or 50s and so the many cancers we see today were just not happening yet or did not have enough time to manifest themselves and kill us.
Anyway, enough of a rant from me. This is a good topic. Thanks. Doug
Good point I find that very interesting. While in Africa I found that the average life span for a working man there is only about 42. The working conditions are so bad there that it is about all the body can take, there were however a few men who lived to be very old but not many.
Better conditions longer life!
Hondo0 -
Thanks...Goalie said:Emperor of all Maladies
was the name of the recent book about cancer: a "biography". It won a Pulitzer Prize for 2011. I read it and it is fascinating. Some of it is a hard slog for non-scientists but not all. My wife, who has a PhD in Chemistry and who has also taught biology, would find it totally comprehensible. I think that my brother, who is a cancer researcher, recommended it as well.
But what struck me in it was not only that cancer has been here forever but that it has been distinguishable to humans for so long. Also, frankly, there were brave doctors and many many braver patients to whom we owe our survival. They tried things that were often of no help to them, not because the doctors were trying stupid useless things, but because they just didn't know. They thought there was some possibility of it helping and some indications but until there is a real trial, with numbers and statistics and comparisons of how many lives were extended by mere months, then we couldn't have known that injecting us with platinum (cisplatin, carboplatin, ...) would help. I also pity and thank the poor folks who got this before they figured out how to control the nausea (it was nicknamed "Cis-flatten" because that is what it did to you.).
Yes, until a century ago, our expected life span was still in the 40s or 50s and so the many cancers we see today were just not happening yet or did not have enough time to manifest themselves and kill us.
Anyway, enough of a rant from me. This is a good topic. Thanks. Doug
for the head's up. I will look for it, Doug. Sounds intriguing, at the very least.
(I admittedly didn't know that cisplatin and carboplatin were derived from platinum, by the way, and, having been submitted to both, I will most definitely be looking into that!)
Take care,
Joe0 -
Taxoteresoccerfreaks said:Thanks...
for the head's up. I will look for it, Doug. Sounds intriguing, at the very least.
(I admittedly didn't know that cisplatin and carboplatin were derived from platinum, by the way, and, having been submitted to both, I will most definitely be looking into that!)
Take care,
Joe
If you're into the trivia cancer chemo pursuit game, check out Taxotere...
It's derived from the YEW Tree bark mainly, LOL.....
JG0 -
Cisplatin = Cis-flattenSkiffin16 said:Taxotere
If you're into the trivia cancer chemo pursuit game, check out Taxotere...
It's derived from the YEW Tree bark mainly, LOL.....
JG
I had thought that they just wanted me to do Erbitux, but I found my notes last week that the hematologist oncologist wrote down and I'm sure it says cisplatin as well. From everything I keep reading, I am glad I said, no way. I don't think I would have made it through that. I really think the chemo would have killed me. The FA researcher told me NO CHEMO. The RO that the reasearcher works with thought Erbitux would be ok for FA. I never asked about the cisplatin because I didn't know.
I also saw in the HO notes said I had four lymphnode involvement and I thought it was three, so idk how accurate her notes are. I keep forgetting to ask, but one of these days, I want to get my TNM thingie again, because I cannot find that anywhere in my notes.0 -
EmperorGoalie said:Emperor of all Maladies
was the name of the recent book about cancer: a "biography". It won a Pulitzer Prize for 2011. I read it and it is fascinating. Some of it is a hard slog for non-scientists but not all. My wife, who has a PhD in Chemistry and who has also taught biology, would find it totally comprehensible. I think that my brother, who is a cancer researcher, recommended it as well.
But what struck me in it was not only that cancer has been here forever but that it has been distinguishable to humans for so long. Also, frankly, there were brave doctors and many many braver patients to whom we owe our survival. They tried things that were often of no help to them, not because the doctors were trying stupid useless things, but because they just didn't know. They thought there was some possibility of it helping and some indications but until there is a real trial, with numbers and statistics and comparisons of how many lives were extended by mere months, then we couldn't have known that injecting us with platinum (cisplatin, carboplatin, ...) would help. I also pity and thank the poor folks who got this before they figured out how to control the nausea (it was nicknamed "Cis-flatten" because that is what it did to you.).
Yes, until a century ago, our expected life span was still in the 40s or 50s and so the many cancers we see today were just not happening yet or did not have enough time to manifest themselves and kill us.
Anyway, enough of a rant from me. This is a good topic. Thanks. Doug
Howdy Doug, thanks for the clarification, that was the name. The age/life expectancy idea is interesting. Maybe Dr. Mary would know, but doing acheological studies for cancer rates is a good idea. I don't know what soft tissue diseases (pancreas, kidney, etc.) show up in bones. I think it's still necessary for brave docs and patients to try dumb stuff--given that our dumb stuff is smarter than it used to be. I think, historically (which is pretty short, cancer-archive wise) cancer shows up in older people. I don't know what the current stats are, but I know there are a lot of young people on this board. Point is, that if it mainly shows in older people, then it's tough to clear our of genes/liklehood of passing it on.
For me, the loss of hearing and tinnitus attibuted to cisplatin has been tough. I don't know what level of noise others have. So, only speaking as a survivor with still-twitchy taste, severe tinnitus, and a neck that won't go away, from the partial dissection, I think researchers still need to stumble, and re-think. Milk, for example, was origninally used in blood transfusions--bad idea. People also used to ingest gold, since gold is valuable stuff.
Easy for me to critisize, since I'm living proof medicine is on the right track. When does cancer start? Amoebas don't get cancer. That would compromise the whole idea of a one-celled organism. Hondo's dog had it. I lost a good cat to it. I wonder at what step it shows on the evolutionary stairway? Hate to be the guy who bites the hand that feeds him. The cause of cancer is still a tough nut to crack; "Emperor" sounds right.
best, Hal0 -
Hey Sweet,Hal61 said:Emperor
Howdy Doug, thanks for the clarification, that was the name. The age/life expectancy idea is interesting. Maybe Dr. Mary would know, but doing acheological studies for cancer rates is a good idea. I don't know what soft tissue diseases (pancreas, kidney, etc.) show up in bones. I think it's still necessary for brave docs and patients to try dumb stuff--given that our dumb stuff is smarter than it used to be. I think, historically (which is pretty short, cancer-archive wise) cancer shows up in older people. I don't know what the current stats are, but I know there are a lot of young people on this board. Point is, that if it mainly shows in older people, then it's tough to clear our of genes/liklehood of passing it on.
For me, the loss of hearing and tinnitus attibuted to cisplatin has been tough. I don't know what level of noise others have. So, only speaking as a survivor with still-twitchy taste, severe tinnitus, and a neck that won't go away, from the partial dissection, I think researchers still need to stumble, and re-think. Milk, for example, was origninally used in blood transfusions--bad idea. People also used to ingest gold, since gold is valuable stuff.
Easy for me to critisize, since I'm living proof medicine is on the right track. When does cancer start? Amoebas don't get cancer. That would compromise the whole idea of a one-celled organism. Hondo's dog had it. I lost a good cat to it. I wonder at what step it shows on the evolutionary stairway? Hate to be the guy who bites the hand that feeds him. The cause of cancer is still a tough nut to crack; "Emperor" sounds right.
best, Hal
Did you have
Hey Sweet,
Did you have radiation along with the erbitux? my mother had erbitux also.0 -
tesatesa said:Hey Sweet,
Did you have
Hey Sweet,
Did you have radiation along with the erbitux? my mother had erbitux also.
i only had radiation. i said no to the erbitux and cisplatin.0
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