Ketogenic Diet - Clinical Trial Thoughts????????

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I am 12 weeks post treatment.  Been reviewing the "net" on the "anti-cancer" diet I see here and there, and I came across this---a real bonafide clinical trial. The theory is that if you starve your body of carbs, then no glucose, and cancer cells cannot thrive.  Ketogenic diet-proteins and fats.  

 

See these links:

 

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01716468?term=NCT01716468&rank=1

 

http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/low-carb-food-list.html

 

Any thoughts???  (Guess ice cream is out with this diet!!!)

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Comments

  • fishmanpa
    fishmanpa Member Posts: 1,227 Member
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    Healthy Eating

    Hi Ron,

    A quick glance and overall, it appears to be healthy albeit similar in some respects to the Atkins diet. In general, a healthy diet, rich in protein and veggies, especially organic, is good for us. Avoiding processed foods and excess sugars in general is good regardless of cancer. Whether or not it actually fights cancer is another thing but it's good to see the medical community addressing diet and cancer.

    "T"

  • Ron Silver
    Ron Silver Member Posts: 94
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    fishmanpa said:

    Healthy Eating

    Hi Ron,

    A quick glance and overall, it appears to be healthy albeit similar in some respects to the Atkins diet. In general, a healthy diet, rich in protein and veggies, especially organic, is good for us. Avoiding processed foods and excess sugars in general is good regardless of cancer. Whether or not it actually fights cancer is another thing but it's good to see the medical community addressing diet and cancer.

    "T"

    I find it interesting.

    I find it interesting.  Apparently they have been using this high-fat, adequate-proteinlow-carbohydrate diet since the 1920s with success in reducing convulsions in epiliptics.  Some tout it as the cure for cancer.  Starving the cancer cells of glucose (from carbs).  Now a clinical study (completion date is in 2014).  It the study shows that it starves the tumors as it has in mice, I expect it will be considered a breakthrough in cancer treatment.   

     

    Also been looking into accupuncure to alleviate my chemotherapy-induced peripheral neuropathy in my hands and feet.  Anyone try accupuncure??

  • donfoo
    donfoo Member Posts: 1,773 Member
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    I find it interesting.

    I find it interesting.  Apparently they have been using this high-fat, adequate-proteinlow-carbohydrate diet since the 1920s with success in reducing convulsions in epiliptics.  Some tout it as the cure for cancer.  Starving the cancer cells of glucose (from carbs).  Now a clinical study (completion date is in 2014).  It the study shows that it starves the tumors as it has in mice, I expect it will be considered a breakthrough in cancer treatment.   

     

    Also been looking into accupuncure to alleviate my chemotherapy-induced peripheral neuropathy in my hands and feet.  Anyone try accupuncure??

    Starving the cancer cells of

    Starving the cancer cells of glucose (from carbs). 

    I love it. Time to resurrecdt my liquid sugar thread. sugar = carbs = bad! LOL

     

  • Ron Silver
    Ron Silver Member Posts: 94
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    donfoo said:

    Starving the cancer cells of

    Starving the cancer cells of glucose (from carbs). 

    I love it. Time to resurrecdt my liquid sugar thread. sugar = carbs = bad! LOL

     

    Donfoo, it is more than that.

    Donfoo, it is more than that.  You have to eliminate carbs (and sugar) from your diet to the point where your body uses up all of its stored glucose.  With no more glucose, the body then burns its stored fat.  You then, through the diet, make fat the bodies primary food source (not glucose).  Ketosis.  It is a big deal, like changing over the fuel system from gas to diesel.  Can't do both.  And there are side effects from the diet (from what I have read).  

     

    http://io9.com/what-you-should-know-about-the-low-carb-ketogenic-diet-489267213

  • Laralyn
    Laralyn Member Posts: 532
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    I'm actually a big proponent!

    I've been stress eating a lot lately while trying to deal with my mom's diagnosis, but I'm planning to go back to paleo--which lends itself to a ketogenic diet. Here's another bit of interesting science that backs up the concept that keeping insulin and glucose in control also helps prevent cancer. In this case, the drug metaformin, used for Type 2 diabetes, seems to help prevent cancer.

    Metaformin and Cancer

  • Ruben and Jude
    Ruben and Jude Member Posts: 155
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    YES YES YES

    Once Ruben was diagnosed with "C", my daughter sent me a link to the ketogenic diet and I found a book (Canton) which was a good guide. Not only did we start the diet, but we both lost an amazing amount of weight in a matter of 1-2 weeks, as well as now Ruben's cholesterol level is down from 260 to 200 (over a 4 month period), without any pharmacuticals!

    I have also discovered "C" grows in an acidic environment, so you should also focus on foods that produce alkaline. Here's the link: http://rense.com/1.mpicons/acidalka.htm Also, you can buy alkaline water, albeit expensive!

    Here's a link to cancer fighting foods: http://www.cancure.org/cancer_fighting_foods.htm

    It's too bad this is not well known information or pushed as much as the pharmacuticals are.

  • Ron Silver
    Ron Silver Member Posts: 94
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    YES YES YES

    Once Ruben was diagnosed with "C", my daughter sent me a link to the ketogenic diet and I found a book (Canton) which was a good guide. Not only did we start the diet, but we both lost an amazing amount of weight in a matter of 1-2 weeks, as well as now Ruben's cholesterol level is down from 260 to 200 (over a 4 month period), without any pharmacuticals!

    I have also discovered "C" grows in an acidic environment, so you should also focus on foods that produce alkaline. Here's the link: http://rense.com/1.mpicons/acidalka.htm Also, you can buy alkaline water, albeit expensive!

    Here's a link to cancer fighting foods: http://www.cancure.org/cancer_fighting_foods.htm

    It's too bad this is not well known information or pushed as much as the pharmacuticals are.

    What if you limit your carbs

    What if you limit your carbs and sugar but not to the extent the diet calls for, i.e., you don't go into ketosis, are you doing any good. Is it something that unless you limit the carbs to the point you go into ketosis, you are getting no benefit?  

  • Ruben and Jude
    Ruben and Jude Member Posts: 155
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    What if you limit your carbs

    What if you limit your carbs and sugar but not to the extent the diet calls for, i.e., you don't go into ketosis, are you doing any good. Is it something that unless you limit the carbs to the point you go into ketosis, you are getting no benefit?  

    All you can do is your best.

    All you can do is your best. So far, 'they' have found cancer grows and thrives on sugar (as well as ALL cells), but healthy cells can live on the fat you have stored, and cancer cells can't. If you don't go into ketosis, what's the point of doing the diet, except you'll be eating healthier.

    You can buy keto sticks to test your urine which will tell you if you're in ketosis.

     

     

  • TracyLynn72
    TracyLynn72 Member Posts: 839
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    YES YES YES

    Once Ruben was diagnosed with "C", my daughter sent me a link to the ketogenic diet and I found a book (Canton) which was a good guide. Not only did we start the diet, but we both lost an amazing amount of weight in a matter of 1-2 weeks, as well as now Ruben's cholesterol level is down from 260 to 200 (over a 4 month period), without any pharmacuticals!

    I have also discovered "C" grows in an acidic environment, so you should also focus on foods that produce alkaline. Here's the link: http://rense.com/1.mpicons/acidalka.htm Also, you can buy alkaline water, albeit expensive!

    Here's a link to cancer fighting foods: http://www.cancure.org/cancer_fighting_foods.htm

    It's too bad this is not well known information or pushed as much as the pharmacuticals are.

    Very interesting!

    I checked out those links and found it to be very interesting.  Tomatoes are listed on the "good" list of foods and that is the one thing I crave ALL the time right now.  I eat a salad with lettuce, tomato and cucumber every single day!  :)  Good reading, thank you! 

  • luv4lacrosse
    luv4lacrosse Member Posts: 1,410 Member
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    Donfoo, it is more than that.

    Donfoo, it is more than that.  You have to eliminate carbs (and sugar) from your diet to the point where your body uses up all of its stored glucose.  With no more glucose, the body then burns its stored fat.  You then, through the diet, make fat the bodies primary food source (not glucose).  Ketosis.  It is a big deal, like changing over the fuel system from gas to diesel.  Can't do both.  And there are side effects from the diet (from what I have read).  

     

    http://io9.com/what-you-should-know-about-the-low-carb-ketogenic-diet-489267213

    Agree with Don on this one

    Not to boast, but look at my pic. This was taken in March of this year. I have Mets to the Lungs and Mediastynal nodes, and am on Palative treatment, IE "**** out of luck." If I starved my body of carbs, there would be no heavy lifting in the gym. A high protein diet with good carbs and exercise is the best thing we can do. If you log into enough ****, you will eventually find any number of things that people say will cause cancer. 

    Everything in moderation is the key to success.

    Mike

  • longtermsurvivor
    longtermsurvivor Member Posts: 1,842 Member
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    Agree with Don on this one

    Not to boast, but look at my pic. This was taken in March of this year. I have Mets to the Lungs and Mediastynal nodes, and am on Palative treatment, IE "**** out of luck." If I starved my body of carbs, there would be no heavy lifting in the gym. A high protein diet with good carbs and exercise is the best thing we can do. If you log into enough ****, you will eventually find any number of things that people say will cause cancer. 

    Everything in moderation is the key to success.

    Mike

    yes, but Mike

    something about your diet and mine doesn't grow hair very well.

  • Ruben and Jude
    Ruben and Jude Member Posts: 155
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    Very interesting!

    I checked out those links and found it to be very interesting.  Tomatoes are listed on the "good" list of foods and that is the one thing I crave ALL the time right now.  I eat a salad with lettuce, tomato and cucumber every single day!  :)  Good reading, thank you! 

    (No subject)

    Laughing

  • luv4lacrosse
    luv4lacrosse Member Posts: 1,410 Member
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    yes, but Mike

    something about your diet and mine doesn't grow hair very well.

    Hair

    Unfortunately I was genetically doomed in the hair dept. years before cancer. The Taxotere I'm on has completely taken care of the rest. After my second treatment, I woke up and my goatee was laying in my pillow.

  • Ron Silver
    Ron Silver Member Posts: 94
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    (No subject)

    Laughing

     
    luv4lacrosse wrote:


    Not

     

    Not to boast, but look at my pic. This was taken in March of this year. I have Mets to the Lungs and Mediastynal nodes, and am on Palative treatment, IE "**** out of luck." If I starved my body of carbs, there would be no heavy lifting in the gym. A high protein diet with good carbs and exercise is the best thing we can do. If you log into enough ****, you will eventually find any number of things that people say will cause cancer. 

    Everything in moderation is the key to success.

    Mike

     

    That was one of my concerns.  I need to gain back about 25 lbs. 

  • Ruben and Jude
    Ruben and Jude Member Posts: 155
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    luv4lacrosse wrote:


    Not

     

    Not to boast, but look at my pic. This was taken in March of this year. I have Mets to the Lungs and Mediastynal nodes, and am on Palative treatment, IE "**** out of luck." If I starved my body of carbs, there would be no heavy lifting in the gym. A high protein diet with good carbs and exercise is the best thing we can do. If you log into enough ****, you will eventually find any number of things that people say will cause cancer. 

    Everything in moderation is the key to success.

    Mike

     

    That was one of my concerns.  I need to gain back about 25 lbs. 

    I don't think the ketogenic

    I don't think the ketogenic diet is for the rest of your life, and all things in moderation. But it and other modalities worked for Ruben, as his PET scan 7 weeks after completion of treatment had absolutely no evidence of cancer, which is a little unusual, as it was expected that he would light up somewhere due to the radiation.

    The ketogenic diet may not be for everyone, fortunately Ruben and I are both able to tolerate it. Making informed decisions is something we all need to do. 

    Take care. God Bless. 

    Jude

     

  • Ron Silver
    Ron Silver Member Posts: 94
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    I don't think the ketogenic

    I don't think the ketogenic diet is for the rest of your life, and all things in moderation. But it and other modalities worked for Ruben, as his PET scan 7 weeks after completion of treatment had absolutely no evidence of cancer, which is a little unusual, as it was expected that he would light up somewhere due to the radiation.

    The ketogenic diet may not be for everyone, fortunately Ruben and I are both able to tolerate it. Making informed decisions is something we all need to do. 

    Take care. God Bless. 

    Jude

     

    Really appreciate you sharing your experience.  I am still looking into it.  Thanks.

  • Beautious3358
    Beautious3358 Member Posts: 11
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    I realize this is an old

    I realize this is an old thread, but I wanted to share our experience.  My husband was diagnosed 4/3/19 HPV+ tonsil cancer. PET scan showed no other locations and lymph nodes clear. Caught it early.  In the time between diagnosis and treatment we researched and adapted to a Ketogenic diet. I feel better than I have in years and recovered from knee surgery in almost record time, Dr. feels it’s due to the healthy protein and healthy fats. My husband has said that he has noticed fast (after only 12 radiation treatments) shrinking of his tumor. Is it because of a Keto diet along with radiation treatmenT? Wouldn’t that be amazing, it could reduce the amount of radiation, or the length of time. I don’t agree with using it alone as a cure, but I am in support of it as an adjuvent with radiation Or rad/chemo,  we are hopeful that it will help with a quicker recovery process. 

  • ERomanO
    ERomanO Member Posts: 322 Member
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    Right around this time last

    Right around this time last year I was in my 3rd week of tretments and my taste for any kind of carbs pretty much disappeared.  For the duration of my treatments and several weeks afterwards I lived mostly on eggs & bacon or sausage for breakfast and salads and salmon or other fish for lucnh and supper, essentially putting me on a Keto-ish diet.  I lost 30 pounds during that time, which was a good thing, but I didn't feel all that great physically. Once my taste buds started coming back and carbs were reintroduced into my diet the weight came right back.  I was kind of bummed about that.  I think it was the beer I was drinking almost every night that did it because I still haven't got a very big craving for most carbs.

    I posted a thread about this a few weeks ago but I'll re-state it.  At my last followup visit with my oncologistsa the one nurse practitioner asked me if I was exercising.  I told her I was a little bit here and there, but I knew that I should do more.  She then said "We've found that patients who work out regularly do better".  That was enough for me to hear, so I got a membership ar Oragen Theory Fitness. I go two days a week and endure a pretty intense 60 minute workout involving rowing machines, weights and treadmill, and burn 900+ calories each time.  But with that kind of workout the calories keep on burning up long after you're done.  It has made a world of difference in the dozen classes I've attended.  I've lost weight, gained strength and THAT has given me incentive to eat healthy. I still love a good cold lager, but I only have a few on the weekends if I'm out with friends... not if I'm home by myself.  With my taste for carbs still being slightly suppressed I'm probably burning up whatever carbs I do ingest and then my body switches over to burning up fat aafter that.  I gotta tell you... I feel great!

    I am a true belieer that diet alone is not a cure all and that the nurse practitioner was absolutely correct that exercise is what really yields results.

  • 58HarleySportsterman
    58HarleySportsterman Member Posts: 13
    edited May 2019 #20
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    Using the Ketogenic Diet for my stage 4 SCC neck and throat canc

    After a failed 2'5 year battle with my HPV positive SCC of the neck and throat, which included 40-radiation treatments, 1-failed chemotherapy treatment (Erbitux/Cisplatin/5FU cocktail) and 16-months of Opdivo immunotherapy treatments which failed to put my cancer into remission, I was referred to Moffitt Cancer Center for a second opinion by my medical oncologist. After reviewing my records and examining me, all three oncologist (surgical, medical, and radiation I fired minformed me that there is nothing more that can be done for me, and that the cancer will take me within 6-months to, if I'm lucky, a year. The very place I hoped could save me, instead has sent me how to die. Not even an offer of a clinical trail! So I fired my original medical oncologist and have a new much better one and went back to my radiation oncologist since Moffitt said radiation might help extend my life by a matter of months, so I though, "Nothing ventured, nothing gained." Well it just so happens that my radiation oncologist is the one who trained the one that I was seen by at Moffitt.

     

    The first thing my radiation oncologist asked me was about my diet, since I am on a feeding tube for the rest of my life, and take 100% of my nutrition and hydration by feeding machine or bolus. When I shared what my daily nutritional intake was (types of food and suppliments) he was not happy! He basically told me that I was taking in way too much suger, etc. and had been feeding my very aggressive SCC. He handed me a stack of papers titled, "The Ketogenic Diet" and told me to go home and start this diet immediated, that if I were to get my body into the state of ketosis, there have been some good results with tumors slowing down in their growth rates, and even shrinking. Let me note here that upon leaving Moffitt that day, when they told me to basically go home and die, I stopped all treatment for my cancer, since nothing was working anyway, and I've not started any alternative treatments since, other than the dietary change. That was almost eight weeks ago. I am here to tell you that I've noticed a 25% reduction in the size of the tumor under my chin, 5-10% redution in the size of the tumors along the bottom of my jawbone, the swelling in the base of my tongue due to the tumors growing in the base of both the left and right sides seem to not be swollen as much, as I'm not biting the sides of my tongue like I was. And all I've done is cut back from 4-5 cartons a day of osmolite to two, yet keeping my daily hydration intake at the same amount through my feeding machine. In addition to upping my whole food intake (bolus) to three meals a day and a nightly desert. My menu consist of beef, pork, and chicken, two eggs/day, lots of vegetables (fresh and frozen, uncooked) and lots of fresh and frozen fruit, cream cheese, real whipping cream, sugar free Glucerna (in my desert), Dan Active (with breakfast)  V8 vegetable drink, (with my dinner) coffee, sugur fee fig newtons and oatmeal cookies, and Vibrant Health's Green Vibrance (with my lunch). Disclaimer: I'm in no way promoting the brand names mentioned in this thread, simply stating what I'm using in my personal diet that I designed from the Ketogenic guidelines of acceptable and recommended food types, etc.

     

    Although the Keto diet was designed for weight loss programs, which as a cancer patient I need the opposite results, to gain weight, I was placed on it to hopefully inhibit my cancer's growth. I've bee able to continually gain weight while on this diet and am almost to my target weight. And yes, I am seeing changes in the size of my tumors, and have had more energy since starting this diet than I've had for the past two and a half years! I only wish somebody would have put me on this diet sooner. Maybe my body's ability to fight the cancer with the help of the Opdivo would have had a different outcome.

  • 58HarleySportsterman
    58HarleySportsterman Member Posts: 13
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    If anyone is interested in my keto diet menu

    As mentioned before, started the Keto deit several weeks ago at the advice of my radiation oncologist. After going through the list of recommended food items in the Keto plan, and looking at just exactly what it is we are trying to achieve with the diet, this is what I put together and it seems to be working quite well:

    Breakfast: (Daily) 1-Sugar free strawberry dan Active, 1/4 cup real whipping cream, 1-cup of coffee, 5-strips of bacon or 1-kielbasa or Italian sausage link, (alternated every other day) 1-scrambled egg, 1/4 cup Guerbers lil bits Oatmeal Apple Cinnamon cereal, fresh and/or frozen fruit as follows: raspberries/blackberries/strawberries/mango and pineapple chunks, and peaches. Enough to finish filling my Ninja blender to the full mark before blenderizing the ingredients into a liquified consistancy that I can push through a syringe and feed myself bolus. This is a very flavorful and nutritional breakfast that gives me much of what the Keto diet calls for.

    Lunch: (daily) Ham salad, cole slaw, Guacamole, kale, 1-measure of Green Vibrance 1-hard boiled egg, 2-heaping teaspoon of mayonaise, 2-teaspoons of dill relish, squirt of brown mustard, 1-cup of coffee, 1/4 cup of real whipping cream. Again, all blenderized into a liquid form to feed bolus through my feeding tube.

    Dinner: (meats very from day to day) Beef patties, pork chops or chicken cooked on the grill, pulled bar b qued pork shoulder roast cooked in the crock pot, salisbury steak, and shrimp. A variety of uncooked frozen or fresh vegetables, kale, 1-V8vegetable drink, (low sodium) sour cream, 1-cup of coffee, 1/4 cup of real whipping cream, a small amount of mixed frozen or fresh fruit, all blenderized.

    Dessert: (nightly) 2-sugar free fig newtons, 2-sugar free oatmeal cookies, raspberries/blackberries/strawberries/ mango and pineapple chunks, peach slices, 1-strawbery Glucerna, 1/2 cup of real whipping cream, 1-cup of coffee, all blenderized into a two servings (two nights worthof dessert) quantity.

    This menu has been working very well for me, as it not only fills me up and satisfies my hunger, it also smells and taste really good (even though I cannot eat or drink orally for the rest of my life. I would recommend this arrangement of foods even to those who can eat orally that are not trying to loose weight, as I've continued to slowly gain it while on this diet, which is part of my goal. That is to put the weight back on that I lost (from 190 lbs before my diagnosis of having cancer down to 124 lbs when I almost died from it in September 2017). The cool thing about this diet is there is a lot of room for change, and customizing it to the indivivual imop. The main goal being to get the body into the state of ketosis, and stop giving the cancer the foods it thrives on, anotherwards, starving the cancer. Which I've already seen happening in the weeks since starting my version of the Ketogenic Diet. Now if my radiation oncologist can just give me some doses of reirradiation to hopefully slow the progess of the cancer, or to contain it where it is and not allow it to get into anymore nodes or the arteries, I might have a fighing chance at a little more quality life before it finlly takes me, rather the the 6-months to 1-year prognosis for life that Moffitt has given me.