Is Diet a real potential solution
Comments
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With all this diet talk, I decided to start the recipe sharing and see if it has legs. If not, that is fine. My wife is an excellent cook, and was hating life for a long while starting seven months ago when I went on the NO red meat, NO dairy, and as little sugar as possible diet. But she has not only rolled with the punches very well, but come up with some recipes that we feel we could serve not only to dieters like us, but of a quality that would be liked by all. So let me start with a total vegan recipe, even though I eat fish and range chicken. Maybe a thanks to Kongo here for all his help and advice.Swingshiftworker said:UCSF Dietary Recommendations
These are all of the dietary recommendations that I'm following based on my discussion w/the dietitian at UCSF and the thick 8.5"x11" booklet that I got from the UCSF Cancer Center.
BLACK BEAN AND BUTTERNUT SQUASH CHILI WITH CILANTRO PESTO
Yield: 6 to 8 servings
2 large onions, coarsely chopped
2 tablespoons extra-virgin olive oil
4 cloves garlic, minced
2 bay leaves
1 tablespoon ground cumin
1 tablespoon dried oregano
1/2 teaspoon freshly ground pepper
1 tablespoon chili powder
1/4 teaspoon ground cloves
1 teaspoon of tumeric
1/8 teaspoon cayenne pepper
2 (28 ounce) cans of whole tomatoes, with juices
4 cups 1/2 inch diced butternut squash (about 1 medium squash)
2-3 cups water
2 cups canned black beans, rinsed
Kernels from 3 to 4 ears fresh corn (about 2 cups)
2 to 3 teaspoons salt
CILANTRO PESTO:
1/3 cup walnut pieces, toasted, see cook's notes
1 bunch cilantro, washed and tough stems removed (about 1 cup)
2 cloves garlic (minced)
1/2 cup canola or olive oil, or a mix of the two
Salt
Cook's Notes: To toast nuts, place in single layer on rimmed baking sheet. Place in middle of a 350 degree oven until nuts are lightly browned. Watch carefully because nuts burn easily.
Procedure:
1) In a large soup pot over medium heat, saute' the onions in oil until translucent, 10 to 15 minutes. Add garlic and saute' another 1-2 minutes. Add spices and continue cooking while stirring to prevent burning, about 1 minute. Add tomatoes and break apart with a masher. Add squash and 2 cups of the water. Bring to a boil, turn down the heat to a simmer until squash is tender, about 20 minutes.
2) Add black beans, corn and the additional water if needed, and simmer to let flavors blend, 5 minutes. Remove bay leaves. Season with salt.
3) To make the pesto, pure'e the walnuts, cilantro, garlic and oil in a food processor until smooth. Add salt to taste. Serve the soup with cilantro pesto on top, or with plain chopped cilantro if you prefer.
Nutrition Info: 420 calories (40% from fat), 19 gms. fat, 3.9 g. saturated fat, 32 mg cholesterol, 50 g. carbohydrates, 11 g. protein, 781 mg sodium, 4.1 g. fiber.
Judy also dabs a tablespoon of non dairy sour cream or soy plain yogurt on top of the chili, and places the cilantro on top of that. For many it may be too much work. For others some of the nutrition info may not be palatable. Enjoy, and if you do, add a favorite recipe of yours.0 -
OBob66 said:With all this diet talk, I decided to start the recipe sharing and see if it has legs. If not, that is fine. My wife is an excellent cook, and was hating life for a long while starting seven months ago when I went on the NO red meat, NO dairy, and as little sugar as possible diet. But she has not only rolled with the punches very well, but come up with some recipes that we feel we could serve not only to dieters like us, but of a quality that would be liked by all. So let me start with a total vegan recipe, even though I eat fish and range chicken. Maybe a thanks to Kongo here for all his help and advice.
BLACK BEAN AND BUTTERNUT SQUASH CHILI WITH CILANTRO PESTO
Yield: 6 to 8 servings
2 large onions, coarsely chopped
2 tablespoons extra-virgin olive oil
4 cloves garlic, minced
2 bay leaves
1 tablespoon ground cumin
1 tablespoon dried oregano
1/2 teaspoon freshly ground pepper
1 tablespoon chili powder
1/4 teaspoon ground cloves
1 teaspoon of tumeric
1/8 teaspoon cayenne pepper
2 (28 ounce) cans of whole tomatoes, with juices
4 cups 1/2 inch diced butternut squash (about 1 medium squash)
2-3 cups water
2 cups canned black beans, rinsed
Kernels from 3 to 4 ears fresh corn (about 2 cups)
2 to 3 teaspoons salt
CILANTRO PESTO:
1/3 cup walnut pieces, toasted, see cook's notes
1 bunch cilantro, washed and tough stems removed (about 1 cup)
2 cloves garlic (minced)
1/2 cup canola or olive oil, or a mix of the two
Salt
Cook's Notes: To toast nuts, place in single layer on rimmed baking sheet. Place in middle of a 350 degree oven until nuts are lightly browned. Watch carefully because nuts burn easily.
Procedure:
1) In a large soup pot over medium heat, saute' the onions in oil until translucent, 10 to 15 minutes. Add garlic and saute' another 1-2 minutes. Add spices and continue cooking while stirring to prevent burning, about 1 minute. Add tomatoes and break apart with a masher. Add squash and 2 cups of the water. Bring to a boil, turn down the heat to a simmer until squash is tender, about 20 minutes.
2) Add black beans, corn and the additional water if needed, and simmer to let flavors blend, 5 minutes. Remove bay leaves. Season with salt.
3) To make the pesto, pure'e the walnuts, cilantro, garlic and oil in a food processor until smooth. Add salt to taste. Serve the soup with cilantro pesto on top, or with plain chopped cilantro if you prefer.
Nutrition Info: 420 calories (40% from fat), 19 gms. fat, 3.9 g. saturated fat, 32 mg cholesterol, 50 g. carbohydrates, 11 g. protein, 781 mg sodium, 4.1 g. fiber.
Judy also dabs a tablespoon of non dairy sour cream or soy plain yogurt on top of the chili, and places the cilantro on top of that. For many it may be too much work. For others some of the nutrition info may not be palatable. Enjoy, and if you do, add a favorite recipe of yours.
Your Recipe#1 would improve if you change these four items;
- 2 tablespoons of olive oil (no need of extra-virgin for the cooking).
- Exchange the “2-3 cups of water” to 2 cups of water plus one cup of dry white wine.
- Use only 1 teaspoon of salt (for a natural taste of the spices).
- Use only extra-virgin olive oil in the Cilantro Pesto (no canola and higher quality of olive oil).
In the procedure, wine should be purred in with the spices on item (1) and let cook for 2 minutes before adding the tomatoes.
Judy and you will like to taste the recipe#1 adding my opinion.
Regards
VGama0 -
VGama: When it comes to cooking I am the resident idiot (maybe a good chop boy, I make). I copied the recipe that Jude used and put it out there. She has read your suggestions and agrees. She uses extra virgin olive oil in all her cooking so does not have the non extra virgin, but agrees that its use in the cilantro is important. The wine, we both agree, is a great idea. Matter of fact, why not a glass or two of a good red while cooking to get the revertrol levels up to snuff. And yes, reducing the salt is a good idea. Hope you try the recipe. Sounds like you may be a good chef. Bon appetit' and cheers.VascodaGama said:OB
Your Recipe#1 would improve if you change these four items;
- 2 tablespoons of olive oil (no need of extra-virgin for the cooking).
- Exchange the “2-3 cups of water” to 2 cups of water plus one cup of dry white wine.
- Use only 1 teaspoon of salt (for a natural taste of the spices).
- Use only extra-virgin olive oil in the Cilantro Pesto (no canola and higher quality of olive oil).
In the procedure, wine should be purred in with the spices on item (1) and let cook for 2 minutes before adding the tomatoes.
Judy and you will like to taste the recipe#1 adding my opinion.
Regards
VGama0 -
Processed FoodKongo said:Causes and effects
Swing,
I agree with you completely that no individual, specific food, vitamin, supplement, or herb will cause or cure cancer. What bothered me when I first began researching diet was the lack of any consistent, definitive data that showed any of these things actually had an impact. One study shows pomegranate juice lowers the risk of cancer, another says no impact. One study says Vitamen E lowers the risk of cancer, another says it was nothing more than a placebo effect. All of the doctors I initially consulted with tended to raise condescending eyebrows when I brought up the subject of diet or dairy on prostate cancer.
It wasn't till I read The China Study that it struck me that there is a fundamental fallacy in the studies conducted that look at a specific or individual food or supplement. If you take a typical cohort of American men who are eating average amounts of red meat, processed sugars, dairy products, and so forth and change a single variable in their diet (like say Vitamin D or Vitamin E) it became clear to me why none of the studies showed any conclusive evidence. The overwhelming impact of eating processed food, red meat from animals fed growth hormones and antibiotics and fattened in vast slaughter operations and fed corn instead of grass, dairy products, and so forth simply outweighed the impact of a single change in diet. Of course the studies had to have a control group where nothing changed and one where they changed a single variable (if you changed more than a single variable you can't tell what is the cause and effect).
It seemed to me that the only way you could validate the assumptions was to look at very large cohorts of people where one group was eating a "normal Western diet" and another was eating a plant based diet. That would be difficult to construct in America but in fact, that is exactly what The China Study did when it looked at a homogeneous population across China where certain parts of the population were primarily plant based and others followed a more Western diet. The results, at least to me, were startling.
There are always going to be outliers like George Burns or the billionare who made his fortune without ever graduating from high school. But although I'd like to be smoking a cigar and drinking martinis at 100, I think I have a better chance of getting there by avoiding the red meat, processed foods, and dairy that comprise so much of our diet in this country.
I wish I knew more. I'm doing a lot of reading. At least in the few months I've followed this course I've seen many positive impacts such as more energy, a gradual weight loss, improved blood levels relating to chlorestoral and other measures.
BTW, Swing, changing the subject here: There's a new 5-year CK study out on the original cohort of patients treated by Dr. King at Stanford and Freeman at Naples that you might wish to look at. Overall cancer free progression rates of 93%. No lasting rectal or urinary toxicity, and 80% of the men retained erectile function without the use of performance enhancing drugs.
You can see it at: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21219625. Click on the free text link to see the complete paper.
Best to you,
K
Kongo,
Did the China study factor in the amount of processed food that is included in the Western Diet versus the Chinese diet?
Somehow I would have expected that the tons of Twinkies, ice cream, bagels, white bread, potatoe chips, french fries, etc. etc. that I ate had a worse effect on my cancerous prostate than the animal protein.0 -
Processed FoodBeau2 said:Processed Food
Kongo,
Did the China study factor in the amount of processed food that is included in the Western Diet versus the Chinese diet?
Somehow I would have expected that the tons of Twinkies, ice cream, bagels, white bread, potatoe chips, french fries, etc. etc. that I ate had a worse effect on my cancerous prostate than the animal protein.
There is much in The China Study about the processed food issue, although that was less a factor in the cohort in China than in the USA, at least when the study was done. A great read on the effects of processed food is The Omnivore's Dilemma. I found that book particularly fascinating as it is really a study of how corn has domesticated us rather than the other way around.
K0 -
Thanks for the CK Update,Kongo said:Causes and effects
Swing,
I agree with you completely that no individual, specific food, vitamin, supplement, or herb will cause or cure cancer. What bothered me when I first began researching diet was the lack of any consistent, definitive data that showed any of these things actually had an impact. One study shows pomegranate juice lowers the risk of cancer, another says no impact. One study says Vitamen E lowers the risk of cancer, another says it was nothing more than a placebo effect. All of the doctors I initially consulted with tended to raise condescending eyebrows when I brought up the subject of diet or dairy on prostate cancer.
It wasn't till I read The China Study that it struck me that there is a fundamental fallacy in the studies conducted that look at a specific or individual food or supplement. If you take a typical cohort of American men who are eating average amounts of red meat, processed sugars, dairy products, and so forth and change a single variable in their diet (like say Vitamin D or Vitamin E) it became clear to me why none of the studies showed any conclusive evidence. The overwhelming impact of eating processed food, red meat from animals fed growth hormones and antibiotics and fattened in vast slaughter operations and fed corn instead of grass, dairy products, and so forth simply outweighed the impact of a single change in diet. Of course the studies had to have a control group where nothing changed and one where they changed a single variable (if you changed more than a single variable you can't tell what is the cause and effect).
It seemed to me that the only way you could validate the assumptions was to look at very large cohorts of people where one group was eating a "normal Western diet" and another was eating a plant based diet. That would be difficult to construct in America but in fact, that is exactly what The China Study did when it looked at a homogeneous population across China where certain parts of the population were primarily plant based and others followed a more Western diet. The results, at least to me, were startling.
There are always going to be outliers like George Burns or the billionare who made his fortune without ever graduating from high school. But although I'd like to be smoking a cigar and drinking martinis at 100, I think I have a better chance of getting there by avoiding the red meat, processed foods, and dairy that comprise so much of our diet in this country.
I wish I knew more. I'm doing a lot of reading. At least in the few months I've followed this course I've seen many positive impacts such as more energy, a gradual weight loss, improved blood levels relating to chlorestoral and other measures.
BTW, Swing, changing the subject here: There's a new 5-year CK study out on the original cohort of patients treated by Dr. King at Stanford and Freeman at Naples that you might wish to look at. Overall cancer free progression rates of 93%. No lasting rectal or urinary toxicity, and 80% of the men retained erectile function without the use of performance enhancing drugs.
You can see it at: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21219625. Click on the free text link to see the complete paper.
Best to you,
K
Thanks for the CK Update, Kongo!0 -
KelloggKongo said:Processed Food
There is much in The China Study about the processed food issue, although that was less a factor in the cohort in China than in the USA, at least when the study was done. A great read on the effects of processed food is The Omnivore's Dilemma. I found that book particularly fascinating as it is really a study of how corn has domesticated us rather than the other way around.
K
I am struck by the many similarities between vegen diets being proposed today and the turn of the century diets proposed at sanatariums in the late 1800's. One of the biggest was the Seven Day Adventist in Battle Creek Michigan. It was taken over by Dr. John Harvey Kellogg who was a big proponent on a vegen diet, exercise, etc.. One big difference ... processed corn ... as in Kellogg Corn Flakes.
It seems that the more things go around the more we come around. Back to the future?0 -
LOL about wineob66 said:VGama: When it comes to cooking I am the resident idiot (maybe a good chop boy, I make). I copied the recipe that Jude used and put it out there. She has read your suggestions and agrees. She uses extra virgin olive oil in all her cooking so does not have the non extra virgin, but agrees that its use in the cilantro is important. The wine, we both agree, is a great idea. Matter of fact, why not a glass or two of a good red while cooking to get the revertrol levels up to snuff. And yes, reducing the salt is a good idea. Hope you try the recipe. Sounds like you may be a good chef. Bon appetit' and cheers.
The comments about wine reminded me of two funny sayings:
"I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even add it to the recipe."
"Like a great wine, we get better as we get older; or rather, as we get older we feel better with lots of great wine!"
Bob & Judy--thx for the recipe. PJD and I look forward to trying it soon. (In addition to his real world job, he's a great sous chef!)0 -
OB-ob66 said:Beautifully said bdhilton
In reading the back and forth of Kongo and Swingshift, I find myself in total agreement with Kongo's position, but I recognize that for those who need "absolute proof", it may not be there quite yet. For you to say "diet will help you in your battle with this beast" says it all for me. I am convinced to the degree that Kongo is, but at the same time admit that the proofs are not absolute. It is at this point that everyone must make their choices. If the sacrifices made in diet are too great I can understand why you would not want to make them. I, like many others, choose to make that change. I have read enough long term studies to believe in the dietary benefits. I wish my children and grandchilden ate this way, but right now they choose not to. I think time will change that, and certainly they are not change by affliction, but by more widespread data to support good diet.
I have just seen too many studies of people born and raised in Asia with low to no prostate/breast cancer. Those who migrate to America and assume our dietary ways experience the much higher incidences of PCa and breast CA. I choose not to go in detail but these are the conclusions that come up over and over. Absolute, probably no. Pretty impressive (scary), yes. We all have to make our choices...Cheers
I just comment on
OB-
I just comment on another post with my post surgery PCa summary and I truly believe that diet plays a major factor in your “healing” after treatment…I also believe that it is the “luck of the draw” …
Like I said-at my 13 month test I was still shooting ZEROs with many “statistically” factors against me…So who knows…
The most important thing to remember is to enjoy the moment and celebrate life…
Prostatic Cancer Staging Summary:
Tumor Type: Acinar with Focal Ductal Differentiation
Gleason Score
Primary + Secondary: 4+3=7
Tertiary: Pattern 5
Location Main Tumor: Prostatic Base
Location Additional Tumor Nodules: Left Apex, Right Apex, Right Mid, Left Mid, and Left Base
Extraprostatic Extension
Focal (<2 Microscopic FOCI): N/A
Established (Extensive): Present and Extensive
Margins
Apical Margin: Free of Tumor
Bladder and Urethral: Free of Tumor
Other Surgical Margins: Positive, right mid Prostate
Seminal Vesicles: Positive for Carcinoma
Location, If Involved: Right Seminal Vesicles
Perineural Invasion: Present
Lymphatic/Vascular Invasion: Not Identified
Total Lymph Nodes: 2
Number positive: 0
Tumor Volume Approximately 18%
Tumor (T): pT3b
Metastasis (M): pMX
Nodes (N): pN00 -
Diet and PC
Hullo all, I'm the latest recruit. A 62 year old male from the land down under with a bit of a health issue down under so to speak. in early 2010 my PSA had climbed to 9. The GP felt a lump, the biopsy came up with a GS of 3+4 from one of 13 points and the urologist wanted to whip it out. A female vegan friend suggested I try some alternatives while in the wait for surgery while training other muscles to control urinating period.
A tough decision? Three months of rebbit food vs major surgery + incontinence + no more orgasms. My PSA which had kicked up to 11 8 weeks after the biopsy dropped to 4.2. I lost 10 kg without a hunger pang (from 82 kg) and loved the food. But I was also dropping muscle mass. My diet stayed mainly vegan for till about June last year but PSA climbed back up to ~ 7 and plateaued.
In March last year I read T. Colin Campbell's The China Study. Great read. Lots of scientific rigour and what a total gentleman he has been shown to be by his temperate responses to critics. However like Beau2 I wonder if he has missed the point. By coincidence my next two books were Nora Gedgaudas Primal Mind, Primal Body and the Vegetarian Myth by Lierre Keith. Now neither lady appears to have Dr T's rigorous approach and Lierre wanders off with the pixies from time to time (but writes a highly entertaining book) there is some interesting material in both. Nora won me over by telling me on about page 2 that double thick cream was good for me provided it came from grass fed bovines.
So I started a dietary experiment of one last June and ate a large proportion of animal fat and protein and dairy products and mostly avoided carbs but probably drank more wine than was good for me. (I see a lot of you lads talk about avoiding sugar. My school science told me all carbs end up as sugar/glucose. If you don't disagree with the chemistry why are you eating any carbs?). My friends expected me to die of a heart attack before Christmas. I just had all the blood tests done: cholesterol and blood sugar easily in normal range. PSA 1.5 (free 0.5). That PSA result is so good I am going to get it re-done at a different lab. I'll keep you posted.
In summary I suspect for this particular old, non-desexed male mammal with the common problem of prostate gland hyperplasia (as my veterinarian daughter termed it) Nora's paleo diet is the go. But I would urge all of you to try cutting down on the carbs (and processed food).
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DietKongo said:Solutions
Ob,
Congratulations on your continuing low PSA readings. Considering your initial diagnosis and treatment, I am sure that you are thrilled with the progress you have made.
All of us react to our cancer diagnosis in different ways. In my own journey, I have gradually come to believe that diet and nutrition are absolutely essential in arresting cancer but also in addressing most other chronic diseases we are suffering from in the United States and other Western nations such as diabetes, MS, dementia, heart disease and so forth.
About a year ago, shortly after my initial diagnosis, I eliminated all dairy after re-reading a book by Professor Jane Plant called Your Life in Your Hands which addressed her own journey with breast cancer and a follow on book about the impact of dairy on prostate cancer. Eliminating dairy significantly reduced my PSA scores even before treatment with CyberKnife. I started paying much more attention to diet and significantly reduced but did not completely eliminate red meat, eggs, or fish.
A few months ago I read "The China Study." It affected me greatly as I found its factual, statistic-based approach compelling. Frankly, I was stunned that I didn't know these things before. After much thought and deliberation I went Vegan in February. Candidly, I didn't think I could stick with it because I travel frequently, I greatly enjoyed red meat and fish, and I anticipated it would be too hard to just go cold turkey with this. I found the opposite to be true and was surprised at how easy it was with a little education. I now find that I continue to lose weight, chronic heartburn that I used to have has vanished, I have more energy and clearer thought processes than ever before and best of all, I feel great. And my progress with prostate cancer continues to be without side effect or any evidence of the disease.
I have come to believe that in America we are only treating the symptoms of cancer with surgery, chemo, or radiation. The fundamental causes for the cancer developing in the first place are generally not addressed by our medical profession and few doctors have anything more than one or perhaps two classes in diet and nutrition in their rigorous training.
You don't have to be a professional nutritionist or diet specialist to grasp the overwhelming evidence that in America what we are putting in our mouths is killing us. The processed foods from animals that have been given growth hormones, antibiotics, and fed food they don't eat in the wild has created a significant imbalance in the chemical stoichiometry in our bodies at the molecular level which is essentially giving candy to cancer. For many, if not most Americans, our diets are creating the perfect breeding ground for chronic diseases such as cancer, heart disease, and the other curses of life in a “wealthy nation.”
One of the most eye-opening chapters discussed in The China Study showed that in populations where less than 10% of protein came from casein (protein from animals) that the innate immune systems were fully capable of handling cancer. When more than 15% of protein came from animal proteins, cancer grew. These percentages held even in the presence of carcinogens. In other words, researchers found they could turn cancer on and off simply by adjusting the amount of animal protein that was consumed.
It makes little sense to me why a man (or any cancer patient) would not seriously think about what caused his cancer in the first place and try to change the factors that started it after treatment. Too many, in my opinion, feel that they’re “cured” after their treatment and can go back to doing whatever they were doing before. I know this is an over generalization and I do believe there are a growing number of men such as you, Ob, that are making conscious changes to control the things they actually have control over – like what we put in our mouths.
I certainly don’t think my meager studies make me any sort of an expert on this but all of us who have had a cancer diagnosis fear a recurrence and we spend hundreds of hours posting and reading posts and studies and talking to doctors about what mysteries might be contained in a rising PSA level after treatment. I would encourage men to do their own research on the impact of diet in this area and make their own decisions based on facts. A couple of books to start you thinking are the previously mentioned China Study and Jane Plant’s books. I would add to that the Omnivore’s Dilemma.
Best to you, ob, and thanks for starting what I hope turns out to be an interesting thread.
Ki agree 100%. The Mediterranean Diet has been where I been going towards. No one knows definitively what causes PC
but if you don't have it its a good way to prevent it. And if it doesn't prevent it then it will improve
your health anyway.
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I for one believe in diet
I for one believe in diet having an impact. But the question is how much? I don't think diet alone can replace a real cancer treatment. But if you looks at studies for lets say flaxseed ( omega 3's) Just that simple super food was shown to have postive effects on cancer parameters. So ofcource eating all these anticancer foods will PREVENT and in some cases slow progresion of cancers. Problems occur when people read these positive results and try replacing real treatments for a cancer diet.
Plus the medical industry will not for the most part support healthy eating as greatly benificial because the effect is small and takes long to be noticed. They will only support things that will be noticeable instantly. I mean that is the entire reason why PREVENTION is really not payed much attention to in the united states.
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An epidemiological treatise you can't hang your hat on
Unfortunately, this book is based on an ecological observational design and chooses to simply ignore the facts that don't fit the preconceived notions of the authors. Fro example the incredibly high rate of gastric cancers among native Japanese consuming a diet with almost no beef/pork or processed foods or the low rates of cancers in the Maasai and the Inuit consuming almost exclusively animal proteins.
I am on the opposite side of this argument. I believe human evolution never contemplated the high levels of refined carbohydrates the typical modern human eats. At least we have some experimental data advocating for low carbohydrate diets as beneficial.
I also don't agree with xcancer's assertion that prevention is not payed much attention in the US. Almost all of primary care is prevention. The attention is placed on proven prevention targets, like prenatal care, childhood immunizations, smoking cessation, primary and secondary prevention of heart disease and screening.
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YesCowboyBob said:An epidemiological treatise you can't hang your hat on
Unfortunately, this book is based on an ecological observational design and chooses to simply ignore the facts that don't fit the preconceived notions of the authors. Fro example the incredibly high rate of gastric cancers among native Japanese consuming a diet with almost no beef/pork or processed foods or the low rates of cancers in the Maasai and the Inuit consuming almost exclusively animal proteins.
I am on the opposite side of this argument. I believe human evolution never contemplated the high levels of refined carbohydrates the typical modern human eats. At least we have some experimental data advocating for low carbohydrate diets as beneficial.
I also don't agree with xcancer's assertion that prevention is not payed much attention in the US. Almost all of primary care is prevention. The attention is placed on proven prevention targets, like prenatal care, childhood immunizations, smoking cessation, primary and secondary prevention of heart disease and screening.
I wholly agree with your assessment here, Cowboy. My medical system group and its associated insurance is constantly harassing all of its members regarding weight, cholesterol, etc. My oncology group provides a R.D., and recommends consultations with her. Humans evolved as omnivores.
The American philosopher/writer Thoreau (the author of Walden) noted that in his day people were basically coerced into eating meat, and were told the old truism that "you become what you eat, and cannot have muscle without consuming meat." He then reflected on cows, and noted that they become meat, eating only straw and grass..... I used to spend time at Christian monasteries, and have read the history of monasticism extensively. A century ago, the monks were ridiculed for veganism, with Americans especially regarding the practice as unhealthy and un-natural. Today, it is vanguard, trendy, cutting-edge.
A few years ago the largest compliation study in history regarding saturated fat was conducted under a joint venture of Cambridge University in England and Harvard University in the U.S. They took all of the results of the 72 largest studies ever, worldwide, regarding longevity and saturated fat consumption, and then mathematically extrapolated the results. The study concluded that saturated fat consumption has NO (zero, none, kein) effect on coronary heart disease. It did not draw conclusions regarding CANCERS.
The results were 180-degrees out from what nutritionists have been force feeding us for many decades. But dietary recommendations have not changed due to this study. This is not some internet mythology. These are the premier schools on earth. Review the data for yourself.
I am sorry that the link above was corrupted somehow (will not scroll when opened). And one correction: The meta-analysis used 72 previous studies, not 80, as I had originally recalled from memory. This link is a fuller Abstract of the study, published by Cambridge University itself. The core paragraph is the one that begins, "For the meta-analysis..."
max
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???Yes
I wholly agree with your assessment here, Cowboy. My medical system group and its associated insurance is constantly harassing all of its members regarding weight, cholesterol, etc. My oncology group provides a R.D., and recommends consultations with her. Humans evolved as omnivores.
The American philosopher/writer Thoreau (the author of Walden) noted that in his day people were basically coerced into eating meat, and were told the old truism that "you become what you eat, and cannot have muscle without consuming meat." He then reflected on cows, and noted that they become meat, eating only straw and grass..... I used to spend time at Christian monasteries, and have read the history of monasticism extensively. A century ago, the monks were ridiculed for veganism, with Americans especially regarding the practice as unhealthy and un-natural. Today, it is vanguard, trendy, cutting-edge.
A few years ago the largest compliation study in history regarding saturated fat was conducted under a joint venture of Cambridge University in England and Harvard University in the U.S. They took all of the results of the 72 largest studies ever, worldwide, regarding longevity and saturated fat consumption, and then mathematically extrapolated the results. The study concluded that saturated fat consumption has NO (zero, none, kein) effect on coronary heart disease. It did not draw conclusions regarding CANCERS.
The results were 180-degrees out from what nutritionists have been force feeding us for many decades. But dietary recommendations have not changed due to this study. This is not some internet mythology. These are the premier schools on earth. Review the data for yourself.
I am sorry that the link above was corrupted somehow (will not scroll when opened). And one correction: The meta-analysis used 72 previous studies, not 80, as I had originally recalled from memory. This link is a fuller Abstract of the study, published by Cambridge University itself. The core paragraph is the one that begins, "For the meta-analysis..."
max
When and by whom were people "coerced" into eating meat?
Granted humans beings and their ancestors probably 1st started as "gatherers" of fruits, nuts, berries, roots, etc. (ie., vegetarians or vegans) but they also eventually became "hunters" which led to meat "natually" becoming an important part of their diet which has led to the common practice of people raising animals to eat, as well as for other products that they provide, like milk, eggs, hides, etc.
No one "coerced" those early humans to hunt/eat meat and, since then, it just became a common practice BUT I don't think people ate as much meat in the past as they do now, because it was hard work to hunt/kill animals before the advent of the means of raising/killing animals and selling their meat in vast quantities. So, personally, I just think it's a question in eating meat in moderation.
This is the point made in almost every dietary recommendation I've ever read, including the UCSF Nutrition and Prostate Cancer brooklet that I was the 1st to reference online here 5-6 years ago (and has since been often reposted since), which recommends a "primarily" (but NOT exclusively) plant based diet w/plenty of fruits/veggies, high fiber from whole grains/beans/legumes, a low fat diet w/an emphasis on "healthy" fats from omega fatty acids (as opposed to "unhealthy" saturated fats), limit the ingestion of processed/refined gains/flours and sugar, drink lots of water and also engage in regular physical activity. Nothing new about such recommendations. People just have a hard time following them.
See: http://cancer.ucsf.edu/_docs/crc/nutrition_prostate.pdf
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Clarification
As noted, the comment regarding meat consumption being essentially normative was explicated by Thoreau in Walden (published in 1854). One of my points is that what is 'healthy' vs what is not oscillates over the centuries, despite the dogmatism present today regarding what is recommended by nutritionists and their 'established science.'
The bulk of my point regarded the report from Cambridge University, which renders much in contemporary dietary recommendations ridiculous and non-empirical (that is, what they say about fats does not match the best, most recent conclusions). But I have yet to meet a register dietician who even knows of the report. When I began long term followship at my cancer center for lymphoma a year ago, my last check in was with their Register Dietician. I was going to ask her about the saturated fats report. After waiting in the hall some time, she called me in, digging her teeth, saying she had broccoli seeds stuck -- broccoli having been her meal. She then gave me a stack of 'why veganism is the only way to live' literature. I knew straight away that asking about fats would be a pretty dumb thing in that office, as indeed it would be most places. Sadly, even food is highly politicized today.
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Balancing is the Key
I believe in a balanced diet, involving alkaline and acidic meals. Our building blocks have centuries of matured habits to which cells have adapted and normalized (in both ways; good and bad environments). Cancer also makes part of these principles and finds ways for survival if threaten, balancing its living environment with means of acidity when one pours into it too much of alkalinity.
Balancing these principles may be the best choice instead of a drastic change to adapt one of the extremes like veganism. I still think that a diet similar to the so called Mediterranean is the best choice.
All you need is to add a glass of wine to make you smile after the meal.VG
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