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Question about supplements

Steve1961
Posts: 301
Joined: Dec 2017

Prostate cancer is a paradox: Its typically slow growth rate makes it possible to treat if discovered early, but once it has metastasized, it is often lethal. 

The combination of four widely-recognized cancer-fighting foods, pomegranate, green tea, turmeric, and broccoli, in a single twice-daily pill has now been shown to significantly reduce the rate of rise of PSA, the tumor marker that indicates progression and invasion of prostate cancer (Thomas 2013). 

This new pill appears to work by providing cancer-suppressing actions at a wide variety of targets. All of this pill’s components have the capacity to cause favorable epigenetic changes, reversing the gene damage that leads to cancer development and restoring normal cancer suppression mechanisms (Gasmi 2010; Malik 2005; Albrecht 2004; Connors 2012; Gupta 2012; Hagen 2013; Herman 2009; Clarke 2011; Dashwood 2007; Myzak 2007; Myzak 2006). 

In a tightly controlled clinical trial, putting them together in a single pill was shown to be effective at slowing the growth of existing prostate cancers and preventing surgical and other side effect-prone procedures. 

If you or someone you know suffers from prostate cancer, or is interested in preventing it, this new functional food pill, or its individual constituents, should be part of their daily program.    

 

anyone think this is worth trying or would it be better just to try and eat these daily .

its a company called life extensions 

i came across this on another forum here is the link ...My God it took me over an hour to read this all.if only we knew about this before diagnosis 

https://www.lifeextension.com/Protocols/Cancer/Prostate-Cancer-Prevention/Page-04

Steve1961
Posts: 301
Joined: Dec 2017

https://www.yananow.org/display_story.php?id=1636

 I clicked on this link one of the members had posted it for another newcomer to look at. About radiation Does anybody know about this website in somebody’s people stories. I read another mans story ..He said he was told he was the fifth surgery of the day right then and there I found it kind of hard to believe unless he misunderstood.. more I read the more I get confused what to eat what not to eat what vitamins to take what not to take  very tough living with this 

VascodaGama's picture
VascodaGama
Posts: 3182
Joined: Nov 2010

Steve

Best wishes for a New Year filled with joy and lesser PCa troubles. I am expecting news on the levels of your next PSA.
I think that you are now on your 18th month since treatment (25 EBRT + HDB). The PSA of 7.1 initially went down to a sort of bounce (Nov 2018=4.159 Feb 2019=3.454 Jul 2019=3.998), declining later to 2.5 ng/ml, reported in your update of August 2019. Surely you can see it rise again before it gets to an acceptable nadir that is typical in such treatments.

Regarding the article you introduce above, this is subjective to what the reader believes. Fortunately most of the supplements are made from controlled substances not causing harm, but the results by taking them may not correspond to the purposes one takes them or expected results. Rarely these do well in cancer cases however they are good to alleviate fears and in most cases it creates confidence (your biggest problems) in those because it empowers the people with the feeling of acting on the issue.

There have been a series of clinical trials and studies on the benefits of supplements in prostate cancer cases but so far none has been proven to do well treating the cancer itself. One may see the influence of supplements on the PSA however the benefit seem to resume in avoiding proliferation of the bandit into adjacent tissues and not in the killing of the prostatic cell we expect to eliminate. In other words, treating the PSA doesn’t mean treating the cancer.

The famous medical oncologist Dr Myers did several researches on diets and supplements (1990th and 2000th) thought to benefit PCa patients, listing them on his 2007 book “Beating Prostate Cancer - Hormonal Therapy & Diet” but 5 years later he informed not recommending some of the supplements. Vitamin E, in particular was found to be more prejudicial than beneficial.
Ten years ago I also procured mental relieve via diets and supplements and read many studies on the matter. I found that some of those acclaimed substances (food and supplements) have components known to inhibit the action of the PSA, in particular those that are rich with the mineral Zinc. Pomegranate and broccoli have high content of Zinc and that may be behind the lower values of PSA found in guys taking the supplement.

The PSA is a glycoprotein enzyme secreted by the epithelial cells of the prostate. It helps in the invasion by prostatic cells into adjacent benign tissues. PCa that metastasise will carry the PSA with it and one may see the PSA value increase accompanying the growing number of cells that do not die (cancerous). When one treats the PSA one is depleting the cells from the serum activity avoiding proliferation but one is not killing the cancer.

Instead of pills I would recommend you to eat the real stuff. Look for foods rich in minerals but avoid too much as it may lead to other problematic health issues.
You may be interested in this link;

https://www.inspire.com/groups/us-too-prostate-cancer/discussion/pomegranate-and-tumeric/?origin=freshen

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15050736

Best wishes,

VGama

 

hewhositsoncushions
Posts: 345
Joined: Mar 2017

I am looking to restart POMI-T as I have found a cheaper source than the rip off one.

I intend to get the diet right as well but want to try multiple fronts of attack.

My only concern is - if these substances reduce PSA, is there a chance that that PSA reduction can mask proliferation?

H

Steve1961
Posts: 301
Joined: Dec 2017

I hope not. ..one thing after another to worry about ...

Clevelandguy
Posts: 548
Joined: Jun 2015

Hi All,

Have to agree with what Vasco said, most of the studies said PSA went down but did tumor growth slow or stop?  According to what I have read the POM supplement did not seem to do any harm so I guess it wouldn't hurt to take it. One would think if PSA went down there would be less cancer growth but is that correct?  Lots of questions to be answered I guess.

Hope everyone has a happy new year and we will be talking about this in 2020.............

Dave 3+4

Steve1961
Posts: 301
Joined: Dec 2017

my PSA rose to 4.1 in 2009 biopsy negative enlarged prostate 

..1 year later 2010 rose to 4.8 biopsy negative..this is where I screwed up I should have asked what size was my prostate and did it grow from 2009 to 2010 ....damnit ...

2010 to 2016 PSA was from 4.7 to 5.0 up and down every 6 months ..fr

from Jan 2016 to July 2017 5.0 to 7.1 

so did I have cancer from 2009 to 2016. I wonder ...I don’t see how ..I ate like crap ...steaks cheeseburgers fries microwave popcorn every day  sugar sodas canned food hardly ant fruit and veggies ..who knows ..all I know is I had an inep urologist and I was nieve to not question him 

Clevelandguy
Posts: 548
Joined: Jun 2015

Hi Steve,

My doctor was more concerned about the rate of rise and not so much the number.  He told me he had one patient in the 2s that was diagnosed with Pca.  In my opinion a biopsy can be somewhat hit or miss unless the doc knows the specfic area to hit(MRI). I was diagnosed in the 4-5 range after watching it rise over a couple of years.  Glad I took care of it when I did because my Pca was at the door waiting to leave the barn. The doc has to have the knowledge/skills to visualize the Prostate and to determine where to poke the needle based on the best info available.  Your 2009 to 2016 readings could have been cancer all along or cancer +BPH, who knows?

Dave 3+4

 

Steve1961
Posts: 301
Joined: Dec 2017

I jut can’t believe I didn’t question that inep urologist. i find this our after the fact.one needs to ask questions and research .it haunts me now ...I wish I could get some kind of repartition ..I mean I’m no dr but I assume that when they put the ultrasound probe in you they see your prostate .i vague image ..for one if there is. a dark spot I’m sure they would poke there if no dark spot then they just make sure they don’t poke twice in the same spot ..correct ...I’m sure they can tell when looking at the ultrasound the size of the prostate..RIGHT ..any urologist should know the size of a regular healthy prostate ..mine was enlarged ...a normal regular biopsy they take 6-12 samples ?????why 6 why not always 12 or more ...that pisses me off lit invasive enough soo why not take as many as possible the first time RIGHT ....common sense ..the more you take the better chance of finding it ...so what get me is this damn urologist must have known I had an enlarged prostate when looking at the ultrasound ..HE TOOK 6 samples only ...then the second time u would think he would have took 12 or more ..I find out uears later from my GP after looking back the prick only took 7 ...obviously thr so called urologist didn’t know what he was doing and I’m disgusted at myself for not questioning him more ..I could have found out years ago an caught it way early ..noghing  I can do now ..I’m sure statue of limitations are up but I would sue that ******* for mal practice..I’m mean my GOD making money off people is one thing but when it could cause them their life that’s morally wrong ..lesson for everyone DO NOT LET THE SAME DR DO 2 BIOPSY ON YOU ALWAYS GET A SECOND OPINION ..problem is how do we let people know before it’s to late ..allot of men come to this forum after the fact .... GOD BLESS YOU ALL IMDONE BEATING MYSELF UP ..hope the good LORD spares me after all this ..MY GP is the BEST he told me to stop seeing my urologist in 2016 because even he thought he was good but was getting many complaints from patients about him... I have  a fantastic ENT ,eye dr ,fabulous dentist ,the best orthopedic ,the one Dr I needed the most to save my life was the worst and he pulled the wool over my eyes ..[content removed by CSN Support Team]

greenteaguy
Posts: 37
Joined: Feb 2019

I heartily agree with the others from cost and natural ingredients standpoints about not using the supplements.  Here are a few tips based on what I do.

Green tea-Consume green tea powder (from Sencha tea leaves) or Matcha.  Make sure the product is from Japan because Japanese tea is first steamed and Chinese tea is full of lead.  When you brew tea you are consuming only the liquid from the brew, while with powder you are consuming the whole leaf and receive ALL the benefits.  Stay away from tea bags because that is the poorest quality tea.

Broccoli sprouts are far more effective than broccoli.  Search for the report at Nutritionfacts.org

I consume a rich tasting 100% pomegranate juice made from dehydrated fruit powder.  Plus I eat the seeds.  Stay away from pomegranate drinks.

As a curry lover it has been easy to incorporate turmeric, cumin and curry powder into my daily diet.  I also add turmeric to my morning detox drink that includes lots of other spices and vegetable juices.  BE SURE to combine black pepper with your turmeric intake because other wise the benefits will just pass right through your digestive system.

 

VascodaGama's picture
VascodaGama
Posts: 3182
Joined: Nov 2010

It is known that certain foods and supplements influence the PSA levels masking cancer proliferation. This is most disturbing when one uses the PSA to judge the outcome of his treatment, during the initial period after therapy.
Urologists and radiotherapists rarely discuss diets and/or supplements that are known to influence the PSA but later they will rely on this marker to judge disease progression. Typically they give more consideration to medications that can mask the PSA than to those that influence the serum.

Hormonal drugs and some fewer medicines are known to influence cancer’s behavior depending in its aiming targets. Some strike the endocrine system lowering the production of androgens, some strike cell’s androgen receptors and some fight inflammation which is always present in cancer spread. The supplements discussed above by Steve strike the PSA’s actions, eliminating their involvement in proliferation. My comment to Steve above is just to alert him about the importance of having a clean PSA test to provide ideas on his treatment status. The PSA value should be as unmasked and as uninfluenced as possible to be trusted.

My fictitious story on cancer progression, as I see it on my self’s experience, is that of a fighting between cancerous and benign cells. The immune system doesn’t intervene in this war unless if called due to a disruption in the normal functioning of a body system. This is the beginning of the growing of the cancer and it occurs in the prostate or at metastasized places. The fight is on and the bandit will use its aggressive behavior and the PSA as weapons.
I can imagine the PSA at these timings being fabricated in higher quantities to help in the perforation of neighboring cells’ capsule allowing the cancer to invade and occupy the newer place. I compare it to sudden rises in PSA identifying spread.
In any case, this is not an easy task. Benign cells also got weapons strongly opposing such advancement. When threatened they will invoke the immune system to control the situation and the fight is over. Thousands of cells from both sides die and the PSA get lost dropping again to a plateau where it stays during a period.
In the event when the immune system is weak (for whatever reason) or when it loses control due to the aggressivity in action, then the bandit takes the opportunity to set home at the newer place and restart forming a newer colony. The PSA will maintain its usual levels (lesser in high Gleason grades or greater in low Gleason grades) with values increasing corresponding to the number of cancerous cells now being produced (duplication).

By contrary, hormonal drugs do not attack the PSA but manage to starve the cancer turning and maintaining it into low gear, lesser prone to fabricate PSA serum. In the process a high number of cancerous cells are killed in the two fronts; by starvation and by neighboring benign cells that are fighting back the invasion. Lower PSA is seen giving the impression that the cancer is dormant and stopped progression.
However, those that managed to survive the blow will continuously duplicate requiring space to advance. These will attack the neighbors. Those adjacent cells will have to squeeze, fight back or die to allow space for the invaders.

I also have noticed that the diet I follow and the cardiovascular medications (simvastatin 20mg, aspirin 100mg and co-valsartan 80mg) I take daily are influencing, directly or indirectly, the progression of the cancer. My diet is mostly based on veggies, fish and fruits. Rarely do I eat meat, ham or sausages (red meat). I usually accompany my meals with red wine and drink lots of water but I also enjoy tea variations when watching TV. Matcha from Japan is very sour but it is great. I do not regulate my meals or drinks with the intent in striking the bandit but to satisfy me at the occasion.

Let’s hope for a new year where we all become winners knocking down the bandit to the canvas for good.

Best,

VGama

 

Steve1961
Posts: 301
Joined: Dec 2017

every time I ask question here I lose hope ..this just sucks ..there is no way I can eat just fruits and veggies ..I feel doomed well at keast I can take aspirin everyday ...my body is enfksmmeci can feel it ..my knees wrists elbows hurt ..this sucks ..the more I think about it the more I wish I removed it ..vascoma you almost make it seem like  no one can be cured if this ..I am sure there are 100 of thousands of men that are below 0.1 THST never changed their diet st all ..I know fir 1 is my wife’s uncle ...35 year survivor ...

VascodaGama's picture
VascodaGama
Posts: 3182
Joined: Nov 2010

You made me smile.

In any case, those with no cancer can not expect such sort of wars happening in their body. You may be one of those cured survivors that eat and drink what ever they like.

In the end one should be happy and enjoy life fully. I do not impose restrictions due to the cancer but give preferences when choosing.

Best

VG

Steve1961
Posts: 301
Joined: Dec 2017

 OK let’s change it  OK so I guess we have a greed there are supplements that can lower PSA and it could mask cancer is there any supplements or food that you can eat that cancer really doesn’t like that could actually suppress it if there is any I hear garlic for one is very good 

Clevelandguy
Posts: 548
Joined: Jun 2015

Hi all,

I doubt if there is any food or food suppliment you could eat or drink that will kill active cancer cells.  That would be the cure of a lifetime. The only thing that can kill cancer is radiation, but this also kills healthy cells. Good diet, less stress, low fat, low sugar and things in moderation all seem to make sense in a healthy diet.  In my opinion thats about all you can do......

Dave 3+4

VascodaGama's picture
VascodaGama
Posts: 3182
Joined: Nov 2010

I agree with Dave above. An healthy diet, physical fitness and avoiding stress are the best we can do to deal with our situation. Preventing cancer occurrences are also more and more difficult for the damages caused to the environment that is leading to fast aging and cancerous situations. The genetic medicine is improving along and will probably find that Silver Bullet to treat PCa. Mean while we need to find enjoyment in life and follow what we like best.

VG

 

Steve1961
Posts: 301
Joined: Dec 2017

 But unfortunately with me i Have anxiety all  I do is worry it causes me stress and don’t get enough exercise because at the end of my day I’ll be exhausted and I only sleep about five hours a night the problem is I know that I can’t keep doing this but when you have anxiety unfortunately it won’t let you sleep it’s a bit of a viscous circle I am trying to break I hope to goodness I can do it .thanks take care ...everyone ..I will report my next PSA test in early feb hopefully good news ..very stressful 

vendetta
Posts: 19
Joined: Jun 2019

As a long time sufferrer of anxiety and having gone through a severe bout of depression myself, I've learned that it easier to focus on the negative and stay negative. So much easier. First off, you without a doubt have it within you to turn your mental perspective around. It will be the hardest thing you do in your life, possibly harder than dealing with PCa. You will have to start thinking of positive things in your life, even if you view them as miniscule positive things. If you really don't think you have positive aspects of your life, try to incorporate some... reading for joy, finding support groups, finding a group with common interests, anything that you think might interest you... try doing it more. Try thinking positive more. It will be difficult, but it is how you have to start. You are alive, you can breathe, start there and build upon it. If you are not on anti-depressants/anti-anxiety medicine consider going to your doctor with the mindset of getting you over the "hump". Don't make it a long term thing, just enough to get you in a place where you can think positive. Hopefully after months of hard work, you can turn the corner and have more happy thoughts than negative. Once it is over, it is over, no more happy or negative thoughts. Try to focus on the time you have left on earth which could be a significant amount of time or an insignificant amount of time. Nobody knows except our maker.

I think all of us on this board want to see you get better both physically and mentally, but it has to start with you. Only you should be able to control how you think and feel, this means you can eventually train yourself how you cope and react to things be it good or bad.

You can F&%KING do this. Yell that at the top of your mother-f*$king lungs that you can turn this sh!t around!

Grinder
Posts: 457
Joined: Mar 2017

Vendetta mentioned focus. We have discussed this before because we have all dealt with the stress of PC and enlarged prostate and other miseries associated with PC... although some worse than others.

But it is worth talking more about how stress works against us again. Stress is originally a survival mechanism to escape a threatening situation. In simple terms, if you hear a wild animal attacking you, or you see another human pull a,weapon, your body immediately responds by emitting neurochemical and hormones that cause you to tense muscles and feel a sense of alarm and the urge of "fight or flight". Once out of danger, the Body returns to homeostasis of relative calm, balancing dopamine, endorphins and other "happiness" neurochemicals.

But modern man lives in a constant state of excited emergency. Because the "flight or fight" response draws energy and attention away from other processes, the immune system is also discouraged from optimum operation. With constant threats to our well being, such as a cancer diagnosis, threat of imprisonment by screwing up our taxes, death of a loved one, etc. etc... we are constantly in a state of stress and anxiety, suppressing our immune system and leaving us in a perpetual mood of anxiety.

Also it is true... diet also plays a part in mood... I have not studied it clearly, but I understand that certain minerals and vitamins are necessary to create dopamine, serotonin, and endorphins to bring about the homeostasis that levels out stress.

Something else we have talked about is the power of controlling the mind... this is very difficult to master, and I am only to the point where I can stop all thought, blank out my mind, and stop any thought from entering. I am barely adequate at this, and I have practiced TM and other techniques since college, but am to the point where I can stop all thought until my body has a chance to restore homeostasis. I do not recommended Transcendental Meditation though because it can create Altered States of Consciousness. But meditation that allows you to "blank out" your mind to keep thoughts that cause stress out can be useful.

Bob George called it "Stinkin Thinkin". I think Vasco's wife called them bubbles... when a negative thought enters the mind, pop it before it affects your mood.

I know this is easier said than done. It is just human nature to dwell on threats to our well being. It's our survival instinct... But sometimes that instinct to dwell on threats to our well being becomes a threat in itself. Then it's time to "blank out" and stop all thought from entering until homeostasis is restored. Then FOCUS has to be taken off threats that cannot be resolved, and put on something that can distract attention away from unresolvable threats.

I have been doing this for 40 years after college and I am still not that good at it, but I am to the point where I can blank out and then control thoughts that enter my mind, and then redirect my focus. If I did not do that I would go crazy... possibly literally.

Of course, then there is our relationship with God. Paul says that "God makes all things work for good for those that love him and are called according to his purpose". That can be a huge confidence booster, to realize that, no matter how bad things get, God can make them work for my good. That is a matter of faith.

Just talking about this has given me a little boost of contentment. Strangely, music is also mood altering in a good way... depending on what you listen to. If I am struggling with anxiety, it does not help to listen to heavy metal rock, grunge, or gangsta rap... but the right kind of music can take attention off stinkin thinkin and help calm mood.

There's a lot of studying to do when it comes to neurochemicals and how they affect mood. I have mentioned before when I was a research intern at the Psychiatric Research Institute, they were doing a lot of experiments on serotonin effects on behavior in rats. It's a complicated, mystifying process... how the brain, the physical component... and the spirit/soul, the immaterial component... meet together in the mind, and how they are affected.

Grinder
Posts: 457
Joined: Mar 2017

Btw... Meds are a pharmaceutical way of restoring homeostasis ... just my opinion, they are a temporary solution that is sometimes necessary. I don't want to get too deep into the woods here and violate policy on medical advice... that is a conversation about necessity, side effects and addiction to have with a doctor. 

I would be curious if anybody in the forum has experience using meds to combat depression and anxiety.

Max Former Hodgkins Stage 3's picture
Max Former Hodg...
Posts: 3416
Joined: May 2012

Grinder,

I've used anti-depressant drugs (SSRIs: Prozac, Zoloft) off and on for decades, since they were developed.  These are non-narcotic, and are not regarded as addictive.  The SSRIs are exactly as you say: an attempt to restore normal serotonin levels in the brain.   They are used against moderate to serious depression, so-called 'major depression (formerly 'clinical depression').  They are also used against many forms of anxiety, OCD, and even PTSD.     To my awareness, they are NOT used against psychosis: conditions like Bi-Polar Disorder or schizophrenia.

Effectiveness of SSRIs is slow to emerge, often taking up to a month to show much success.  Dosing for anxiety or OCD is approximately double what is required against depression, and effectivelness against these can take over a month to manifest.

Side-effects are numerous and can vary widely.   They do not cause impotence, but can limit men's abilty to orgasam -- something PCa patients will be interested to know.  They are not sedatives.    They can cause a sense of apathy or radical indifference, which is part of why they increase the chance of suicide in some patients.  In other words, some people get over worry by seemingly no longer giving a rip.   

There was a famous book published in 1993, entitle Listening to Prozac, which investigates anti-depressants generally.

The Pink Floyd hit Comfortably Numb is an anthem against psychiatric drugs generally.  David Gilmore's solos in that song are rated by Rolling Stone as one of the greatest in rock history.  Reason enough to listen !

I have no experience with any of the anti-psychotic drugs used agains more profound issues.

The above is based upon extensive reading on the subject, but I am not a medical authority of any kind. ANY treatment of depression or other disorders demands careful following by an MD.

 

Steve1961
Posts: 301
Joined: Dec 2017

 I talked with my counselor and I had meds for a while but they weren’t working. I have issues that need to be dealt with until you deal with the issues no  meds will help they should just be used temporary  or if a person has been diagnosed with bipolar disease or schizophrenia that those type of meds could help but he just have anxiety or depressed reasons in your life until those reasons are resolved no pills really going to help either have to fix the problem u have to learn to cope with it  sleep is the number one if you don’t get a good nights sleep anxiety heightens 

Georges Calvez
Posts: 435
Joined: Sep 2018

Hi there,

When I was on Firmagon I would sometimes start crying, often for fairly trivial reasons, I would feel sad about stupid things like the cat vomiting on the carpet.
My wife insisted that I went to see a psychiatrist who tried to put me on Vortioxetine, licensed as Brintellix in France (2016), 10mg.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortioxetine
I refused on the grounds that I did not have any major symptoms of depression, I was only strangely and unaccountably sad from time to time, the rest of the time I was normal.
Now, three months after my last injection of Firmagon the crying spells have gone away.

Best wishes,

Georges

Josephg
Posts: 218
Joined: Jan 2013

As Georges stated, I too had periodic bouts with over-emotionalism, for me.  Once the effects of Lupron subsided, these over-emotionalism bouts ended, as well.

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