The Spirituality, Prayer, and Meditation thread

PhillieG
PhillieG Member Posts: 4,866
edited March 2014 in Colorectal Cancer #1
Not to be too "me-like" but I can't look the other way forever. There is a place that has been set aside for this type of post over in the Spirituality, Prayer, and Meditation thread. I totally understand that prayer for many, is a part of the support. That is why there is a section just for that.
I know this is not a popular opinion at all and I am greatly outnumbered in my opinion on this, but it's like posting breast cancer comments in the colon cancer section. There are many who visit this thread to find out about colon cancer and not for prayer group. We have lost a bunch of great contributors due to the never-ending theme of the majority of the posts and I am about done here too.
Respectfully...
-phil

Thank you to those who know exactly what I am talking about. The others who find my opinion on this to be either "out of line", "uncalled for", "what's wrong with prayer?", "it's a free country", "be tolerant", "oh Phil" etc, from the few comments I read, I do not think my post was even read by some who commented on it. I did not expect many to understand this at all. As someone commented, tolerance is MORE than just looking the other way when there is something you may not like or agree with. There is also something called "Internet etiquette" or "Netiquette".

Part of Netiquette is understanding that in a forum which is open to all and where people come from many different cultural and ethnic backgrounds, you try not to have a lot of exclusive talk because you are aware there are differences of opinion. This especially holds true if what is being discussed is not the purpose of the forum. Some people may also call this being courteous.

And to those who suggest I don't read the comments if I don't like them, if I knew where they were (like maybe in a place made just for that) I could avoid them if I wanted to. However, they are not there but rather are mixed in with the other comments that actually have something to do with the topic.

I could also flag as offensive every comment I don't like for the administrator to take care of so to even suggest that someone look the other way is just ridiculous.

As I stated in the beginning of my post, I knew that my post would not be popular at all and that it would be misunderstood (and as it turns out, not really read since comments were made that had nothing at all to do with what I said). I wasn't let down.

I did not nor do want this to be a rally around Phil thing. While I greatly appreciate the support and kind words most have given me I can not keep this going at this time without feeling very frustrated at revisiting the same thing over and over and over and over again. I have enjoyed helping people with their cancer questions, there are very many people who have done and can do the same. While I noticed that the title of the post that drew my response was changed, the point was made. Nice afterthought though.


I read a few more comments and it amazes me (not) how people just don't READ posts. Who called for censorship? I didn't, did you?

As far as finding offense with posts place yourself here folks if you can. If the comments I am talking about on this site were suddenly all related to a religion that you do not agree with (pick one, there's plenty to go around for everyone) would you like seeing them all the time every time you read someone's question?

And the comment about going to the other room (the Religion, Spirituality, and Meditation room) and having it feel like being in church. Maybe you felt like it was like being in church because the topics discussed are religion related, just like in a church. Fancy that. Sorry you felt no one loved you over in the religion room. Imagine if a person could go to the Colon Cancer room and have it feel like they were in a room talking about colon cancer. I hope that happens some day.

It also has nothing to do with me being anti-prayer or anti-God which I am neither. I believe there is power in positive thinking. I'm all for it. That is not what I posted about. It's the thread that has since been changed that read prayers for the week. This has nothing to do with "one word" and really not even the "one post". This has been the theme since the get go but more more prevalent in the past 1-2 years. The silent minority knows what I'm talking about.

Obviously I feel very strongly about this just as many of you feel so strongly about your position on it.

I also love it how when someone beats cancer God gets the save but if they don't, the doctors failed...Rarely is praise given to the medical team who worked like crazy to try to find cures or other protocols.
Like with the Arabs and the Jews, this "discussion" will go on forever and never will the two side meet and learn to not push each others buttons.

Not surprisingly this blew up like I expected. I am not making any statements about the future and my contributions here. I'm sure at some point I'll suck it up and put up with the business as usual until I can't take it anymore...

To all of the new members. I'm sorry you are here with your cancers and that you entered in the middle of our dysfunctional quarterly religious arguments. The site is most always very helpful when it's on topic about cancer and learning about side effects and what to expect with them. There are many who have been through a lot and much can be learned from them.

Keep posting people, majority rules, right?
Soon there will be one opinion that all can agree on.
More vanilla ice cream please!
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Comments

  • lcarper2
    lcarper2 Member Posts: 635
    phil
    I hate to see you go away and don't really understand why you would go . If I understand your post are you saying you don't want us to pray here for our fellow cc family are we to go to a different room to do this? I just look through the post and if prayer is being ask for I can or can not choose to do the prayer. I am sorry if I have made you mad by requesting prayer for myself but didn't know there was a set of rules to go by in here.I guess I don't understand why some one would leave over prayer. I hope I miss understood what you were trying to say and if so I hope you clear it up for me .
  • Shayenne
    Shayenne Member Posts: 2,342
    You...
    Better not go away young man!

    Hugsss!
    ~Donna
  • Lovekitties
    Lovekitties Member Posts: 3,364 Member
    Sorry you feel that way
    The prayers being offered are expressions of care and concern and a way to 'help' those who need extra support, and for those that believe in it, it offers a non-medical way of getting by day to day. I take it you are not just concerned about the one particular post, but also the fact that many add prayers when responding to individual posts.

    They are not meant to offend anyone. We each have our own beliefs and hopefully we can be tolerent when those beliefs do not match our own.

    It would be a shame for you to leave such an informatiive and caring group, but only you can make that choice.


    Whatever you decide, I hope that you have sucess over cancer.

    Marie
  • lizzydavis
    lizzydavis Member Posts: 893

    Sorry you feel that way
    The prayers being offered are expressions of care and concern and a way to 'help' those who need extra support, and for those that believe in it, it offers a non-medical way of getting by day to day. I take it you are not just concerned about the one particular post, but also the fact that many add prayers when responding to individual posts.

    They are not meant to offend anyone. We each have our own beliefs and hopefully we can be tolerent when those beliefs do not match our own.

    It would be a shame for you to leave such an informatiive and caring group, but only you can make that choice.


    Whatever you decide, I hope that you have sucess over cancer.

    Marie

    Marie, What an intelligent reply.
    Marie, What an intelligent reply.

    ----Thank you.
  • PhillieG
    PhillieG Member Posts: 4,866
    lcarper2 said:

    phil
    I hate to see you go away and don't really understand why you would go . If I understand your post are you saying you don't want us to pray here for our fellow cc family are we to go to a different room to do this? I just look through the post and if prayer is being ask for I can or can not choose to do the prayer. I am sorry if I have made you mad by requesting prayer for myself but didn't know there was a set of rules to go by in here.I guess I don't understand why some one would leave over prayer. I hope I miss understood what you were trying to say and if so I hope you clear it up for me .

    I know it make little (if any) sense to "believers"
    To answer you lcarper2, Yes and No. What starts out as sending prayers in posts and asking for prayers in posts became a new topic of "Prayers and Thoughts (Week of January 25)" which certainly implies that this is now becoming a weekly thing not unlike the "Friday Riddle" but much less fun for me. If practically everyone on this site had a belief system that was not like yours and practically every post made strong references to that belief system I think that you might eventually reach a saturation point with it. Then possibly you might understand why someone would leave over prayer.

    I am "not mad" at all, I've reached my saturation point with this. My cup runith over.
    If this were a prayer group, I'd be in heaven...but it's not supposed to be a prayer group (is it?)
    ;-)

    Like I said, I know this is not at all popular. I am not singling you out at all and while I think it's great to be supportive of each other, not being a member of the same belief system as most everyone else makes me and other silent members uncomfortable. This is a group for everybody yet it seems to be heading toward being a group for a certain belief system.
    I guess these are just my "thoughts for this week"
    -p
  • lcarper2
    lcarper2 Member Posts: 635
    PhillieG said:

    I know it make little (if any) sense to "believers"
    To answer you lcarper2, Yes and No. What starts out as sending prayers in posts and asking for prayers in posts became a new topic of "Prayers and Thoughts (Week of January 25)" which certainly implies that this is now becoming a weekly thing not unlike the "Friday Riddle" but much less fun for me. If practically everyone on this site had a belief system that was not like yours and practically every post made strong references to that belief system I think that you might eventually reach a saturation point with it. Then possibly you might understand why someone would leave over prayer.

    I am "not mad" at all, I've reached my saturation point with this. My cup runith over.
    If this were a prayer group, I'd be in heaven...but it's not supposed to be a prayer group (is it?)
    ;-)

    Like I said, I know this is not at all popular. I am not singling you out at all and while I think it's great to be supportive of each other, not being a member of the same belief system as most everyone else makes me and other silent members uncomfortable. This is a group for everybody yet it seems to be heading toward being a group for a certain belief system.
    I guess these are just my "thoughts for this week"
    -p

    phil
    I went into the other room and felt like I was in church they are giving bible verses OMG I was waiting for some one to pass the plate so if you want to be there go for it but I will stay right here where I am cared about and loved and yes they can pray for me anytime and I have not said what faith I am and I will not say it has nothing to do with why we are here so you will be missed but not joined by me...
  • papajedi
    papajedi Member Posts: 110

    Marie, What an intelligent reply.
    Marie, What an intelligent reply.

    ----Thank you.

    Prayer
    Thanks Marie for adding a little balance and sanity to the discussion. This being an "open" where we hopefully don't attempt to legislate any post, espically ones written out of a loving, caring and compassionate spirit. Any of us are free in this forum to smile, press delete, or ignore post they so choose.
  • angelsbaby
    angelsbaby Member Posts: 1,165
    papajedi said:

    Prayer
    Thanks Marie for adding a little balance and sanity to the discussion. This being an "open" where we hopefully don't attempt to legislate any post, espically ones written out of a loving, caring and compassionate spirit. Any of us are free in this forum to smile, press delete, or ignore post they so choose.

    Here we go again
    There has been a few times where this topic has come up and it made it stressful to post for alot of people. and some good people went away because of it .I don't want phil and others to go but i do understand.

    michelle
  • AceSFO
    AceSFO Member Posts: 229
    papajedi said:

    Prayer
    Thanks Marie for adding a little balance and sanity to the discussion. This being an "open" where we hopefully don't attempt to legislate any post, espically ones written out of a loving, caring and compassionate spirit. Any of us are free in this forum to smile, press delete, or ignore post they so choose.

    my approach
    is to try to take comments (of all sorts - not just on here) in the spirit in which they were intended regardless of whether or not the language or philosophy is the same as what I would use. I'm often in the minority in many arenas in my life and know what it feels like to be outside the accepted paradigm, and how tiring it can be to have to "translate" all the time.

    I'm not directing this at anyone in particular on this thread or trying to single anyone out. Just throwing my two cents into the ring. Also, all the bad news on here lately has made me feel a little more edgy or vulnerable or emotional or something and I'm trying to bear that in mind when I read things on here that I might not agree with. And, if I see a thread with a title that I know I'm not going to resonate with, I just skip it and go on.

    And as for you, Phil, I hope you'll stick with it here. I love your wry humor and compassion. It would be a huge loss after so many other losses here lately.

    Just my two cents.
    Adrian
  • Paula G.
    Paula G. Member Posts: 596
    Phil,
    I for one do not want

    Phil,
    I for one do not want you to go. You have a wonderful humor side that helps me out. You also have been through so damn much. Your knowledge has been so helpful also.
    I know there has been many debates on this even before I joined. I do agree with you for The most part.
    I hope it won't get so out of control that people stop posting.
  • This comment has been removed by the Moderator
  • maglets
    maglets Member Posts: 2,576
    unknown said:

    This comment has been removed by the Moderator

    please don't go Phil
    I was here last spring too Kathy and it was indeed painful and upsetting. I too left for some time. I could not agree more that the main operating principle should be inclusiveness.
    I also agree that judgment should be left at the door.

    Conceivably we are all locked in a battle for our lives. How can we waste time and energy by bullying one another? Adrian is right that not all posts will appeal to all. As a Canadian I have no part in the many discussions of health care and insurance companies. Michelle is right....we have been here before it seems...time and time again.

    Phil has worked extremely hard here with an absolute wealth of knowledge and support to say nothing of his stunning sense of humour....see that I spell humour with a u....even that makes me different. I have recently been trying to edge my way back here. I too hope we do not descend into bickering and judgment.

    mags
  • CanadaSue
    CanadaSue Member Posts: 339
    unknown said:

    This comment has been removed by the Moderator

    Couldn't have said it beter
    Kathy,

    I couldn't have said it any beter than you have!

    I well remember last springs uprising.

    I don't post often as I am a caregiver, but I do ask questions when I feel it may help our situation, I will also offer help if I am able.

    When my hubby was dx'ed he asked the onc if he (stage IV) should change his diet in anyway to which he was told, "No do not change anything," I posted that and was chasted for it.
    We usually eat well balanced meals, but we do occationally stray from that. This is our choice as to what we continue to eat, and not someone elses choice to make.

    I joined this board in 2006 and a friend Limey (Mark) and I had conversations about the heated chemo treatments - when he passed away the board was having troubles and responding to posts was a no go. So I opened a thread as did a few others, and one person opened another thread saying to paste and copy to respond to the thread in order to not waste space, when I asked what we were saving it for that thread was deleted.....

    I will usually end my posts by saying my prayers and thoughts are with you. However if I was responding to Phil's post I would just say my thoughts are with you.


    Phil, PLEASE DON'T LEAVE! You are a ray of sunshine to many of us on here!

    Getting off my soapbox now.

    Sue
  • geotina
    geotina Member Posts: 2,111
    Ummmmm
    I reall don't know how to answer this one. I will gather my thoughts as I drive home from work today and think about my post. I must say though, that George was diagnosed 3/09 and I did not post until 10/09 partly because of some of this stuff. I also have never joined the Colon Club even though I go on there everyday. Why, same reason, religion. I thought it was about colon cancer and I was reading way too much about religion. I also felt I was not intelligent enough to join their conversations and too old for that group. Additionally, just a week or so ago, they were talking about HIPEC (sp) and when some names of doctors were mentioned, someone joined in and jumped down their throats. Just how are we to know where to start looking for a specific treatment without direction. Anyway, there are lots of people that have offered prayers for George and I take it in the spirit in which it was given, including, but not limited to our Muslim colorectal surgeon, our Hindu oncologist (I think he is Hindu - from India), our Arabic but Christian internist and my personal phyhsician who is Asian, my dentist who is from Kuwait (sp), my nephew who is some kind of non-demoninational thing, my Catholic sister and my Orthodox niece. Peace to everyone - Hugs Tina
  • mom_2_3
    mom_2_3 Member Posts: 952
    Didn't mean
    Didn't mean to set off a maelstorm here. I didn't think I posted an offensive post. But I don't really want to start anything contentious so this will the last thread that I post on this topic.

    This reminds me of my next door neighbors. We live on a great cul-de-sac and have FANTASTIC neighbors to our left, our right, across and behind. We get together on a regular basis and eat and chat and enjoy each other's company. Every November each of those couples puts up election signs on their front yards (we never do). So all around us are signs for candidates we don't support (and our neighbors know our politics as well from discussion).

    But I have never thought I wasn't welcome in my neighborhood. I haven't thought of leaving. And I don't tell my neighbors how they are not inclusive because they literally post these signs "in our faces." I don't feel unhappy because their opinions are so antithetical to my own.

    I wave to our neighbors whenever we pass. I will bring up their garbage cans and my husband will shovel the drive for one of the couples. I will watch the pets if any of them travel and they watch out for ours. And we still always get together pretty frequently. I guess I could be offended by those signs or what beliefs they represent for my neighbors but I know I would be missing out on quite a bit.
  • mom_2_3
    mom_2_3 Member Posts: 952
    Didn't mean
    Oops, sorry, double post.
  • Hatshepsut
    Hatshepsut Member Posts: 336 Member
    The real meaning of tolerance....
    Phil:

    I certainly hope that you won't leave this board.

    You have helped so many people here (my husband included). You have made us laugh, sometimes you have made us cry, and, most importantly, you have made us truly think about the importance of living a full life albeit one with cancer.

    I'm sure many others join me in thinking that you "keep it real" around here.

    To suggest that you should just "go quietly into the good night" because you dare to post that this board should jealously guard its religious impartiality is shameful and selfish in my opinion.

    I would be less than honest were I not to say that, like you, I have been uncomfortable with the decided uptick in religious posts here. This board paid a heavy price for the battle that erupted here months ago about the appropriateness of religious references and what was interpreted as the derision of people who didn't believe in a certain religious ethic. Do we want to go there again? I hope not.

    I join you in believing that everyone, whatever their beliefs or non-beliefs, who has the misfortune to have cancer (or who loves someone who does have cancer), should be made to feel welcome here. This place is, for colon cancer patients, the only place in town.

    Some have invoked the word "tolerance" in this discussion to defend the many religious posts on this board. To them, I would suggest that perhaps the word "tolerance" means ( or should mean) something more than demanding that those with whom we disagree simply grin and bear it when people (mis)use a public board (overtly or subliminally) to proselytize. The really tolerant among us understand that true tolerance is about respecting the rights of those with whom we disagree. Tolerance is about them, not about us.
    Hatshepsut
  • dianetavegia
    dianetavegia Member Posts: 1,942
    Swing chickens...

    Scan on Wednesday. I'm very nervous. I NEED this one to be good. I accept graciously all prayers, warm thoughts and swinging chickens! Glad to be back and hope to be of some help to those that are struggling.

    Hugs,
    Kimby


    YIKES! That was a light hearted request Kimby had made and I'm very sure she meant she wanted all the good thoughts and well wishes she could get. I repeated her remarks in my response. NO harm was meant to anyone. In fact, on another forum, in response to Kimby, someone explained about swinging chickens, when it was done, chickens aren't hurt (actually held in two hands and raised over the head).

    Let's say I want to wish Adrian 'my best wishes'. Well MY best wishes are prayer. Maybe you'll wish Lisa warm thoughts or positive energy. If that is your best wishes, then I believe they would welcome those thoughts.

    Let's ban together against cancer and not attack each other! Let's not 'shoot' our wounded!


    Diane
  • lisa42
    lisa42 Member Posts: 3,625
    sad
    Phil,

    I'm sad to read that you're upset about this as, yes, we definitely had this topic front and center a few months back. To relegate any religious words to the "religion and spirituality" board or to delete references to prayer as Donna mentioned would, in my opinion, be censorship in a major way. I agree that people should respect others' beliefs. I've been reminded to keep my talk of prayer directed just to those whom I know would appreciate it. I will definitely attempt to do that, but I admit it is difficult because my faith is who I am. To talk about life and death without God seems so fake to me, because God and prayer are my life. I realize not everyone believes the same, but I can't not be who I am. People don't like to hear this, but the Bible does say to share the gospel with all the people unto the ends of the earth. That may offend some, but I didn't make it up- those are the words of Jesus. I haven't been preaching, but to share a prayer or verse with others who are hurting is what Christians are supposed to do. If others are offended by it, then they should just take it in the spirit it was intended- to comfort others in need. So many people don't go on the Religion and Spirituality thread, so they wouldn't see our thoughts there.
    Phil, I certainly don't want to get into it again after a few months back, but I wish (as a couple others mentioned) that you could just let it go and not take it as an attack. I believe each person on the board that has said "I'll be praying for you" or other spiritual words, has meant it as a means of comfort and were being sincere. If you don't want anyone to pray for you- fine.
    I realize some could be offended- but what about those who are offended by someone wanting to muzzle others' beliefs just because they are not shared by everyone? If someone were Muslim or Hindu and brought up that they were praying to Buddah or whomever they worshipped, I would not find that offensive in the least, even though I don't share their beliefs.
    That's my 2 cents-

    Lisa

    I won't say anymore, as I wasn't expecting this at all.
  • PGLGreg
    PGLGreg Member Posts: 731
    I usually don't notice
    I usually don't notice commercials any more, and when one does seize my attention, I can usually fast forward. If I noticed the calls to prayer, I would be irritated, being irreligious myself, but I rarely notice. What does get my goat are calls for censorship, which I really can't stand.

    --Greg