Without religion, is a prayer just a wish?
Just curious...
Chris
Phil, I've accepted that this section is for "general discussion" as I mentioned in a previous post of mine so here's one....
Take care
Comments
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Hello Believe,
As an atheist, I don't pray to anything or at all. If I say something like "I wish I had a frying pan" it's because my son or boyfriend is nearby and I'm hinting ;-) Nothing higher-power related. I'm interested in what other people will say, here, however!
stayingcalm
*edit - despite my hat, no, I don't believe in Santa Claus, either, sorry ;-)0 -
Hi Chris
There are people that pray to themselves and others that pray to cows and some that pray to the dead. Not that it is to a higher power but a faith or a belief system that they learned from someone else, whether it is to believe in something or nothing at all I am not sure. There are people who believe in Yoga, they seek inner peace and a connection with their body, mind, and spirit, not that it is a prayer but a seeking of fulfillment of one’s desire.
The dictionary says that prayer is a form of religious practice that seeks to activate a volitional connection to a God or Spirit through deliberate practice. Prayer may be either individual or communal and take place in public or in private. It may also involve the use of words or even songs.
I think that a prayer can be anything that a person wants it to be, that being to a higher power, a God or to oneself.
As a Christian my prayers are to God because that is my personal belief, not that I am right and all others wrong.
One of the problems with our World today is that there are people who want to tell everyone else how to pray, what to believe, and how to believe. I am glad that I live in a county that I still have Religious freedom but I wonder how much longer that will be for.
We could all learn to live better if we could all learn to understand and accept each other for what we are and what we believe or not believe.0 -
I don't think you are asking
I don't think you are asking me this because I do have faith and a belief in a higher power but don't have a religion. I almost didn't answer for this reason. But it was my belief that Agnostics don't pray. Maybe I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.0 -
I would thinkMarcia527 said:I don't think you are asking
I don't think you are asking me this because I do have faith and a belief in a higher power but don't have a religion. I almost didn't answer for this reason. But it was my belief that Agnostics don't pray. Maybe I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.
that it would be believing more in "chance" or "coinsidence". At least that's how I used to think before.
Marcia, I just noticed your picture...girl, you are too funny! Your pictures are just hilarious! Great job!
HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!0 -
How would a prayer be defined without a religious context?Marcia527 said:I don't think you are asking
I don't think you are asking me this because I do have faith and a belief in a higher power but don't have a religion. I almost didn't answer for this reason. But it was my belief that Agnostics don't pray. Maybe I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.
Thanks Marcia, no, I'm not asking anyone in particular just a thought I had. So, if you don't have a specific religion or "name" for a "higher power", who,or what, are prayers directed to? I've heard this on other forums and wondered how something like that goes. Normaly when I pray it is directed to God, or Jesus, or Saints and I think Pagans would pray to maybe a ruler of nature or the elements. But if someone doesn't have a formed opinion on who or what created Us or the earth, what function does a prayer serve. It's easy when you have guidelines to follow such as in a religion. When one forms their own opinions, what is the intent or function of a prayer. I guess the easy answer is, "what ever they want it to be" but I'm curious though how someone would describe a prayer if they don't follow a normal definition of it. Do you think it holds more value to the recipient if someone says "I hope things work out for you" or "I'm praying for you"?
I wonder...0 -
What about Hope?stayingcalm said:Hello Believe,
As an atheist, I don't pray to anything or at all. If I say something like "I wish I had a frying pan" it's because my son or boyfriend is nearby and I'm hinting ;-) Nothing higher-power related. I'm interested in what other people will say, here, however!
stayingcalm
*edit - despite my hat, no, I don't believe in Santa Claus, either, sorry ;-)
Hey thanks. So if you were to want good things for someone, that you have no control of, how would you convey that sentiment? Would you say hope, wish or something else? Do you ever say "I hope you feel better" or similar sentiments? If so, what value do you give that hope? I know in religion a prayer has great value so saying a prayer for someone or something is important. If there is no belief of an outside presence then is there any point in hoping for something or do you feel humans have some undetermined ability to give value to a hope or a wish? I mean value more than just a kind expression. I guess what I'm asking is, would someone of your persuasion use the word "hope" or "wish" in the same context as prayer or are they just words to convey the expression of caring?
Thanks for the input.
Cute picture. So you may not believe in Santa but what about the cat?0 -
Is everything open to interpretation?Hondo said:Hi Chris
There are people that pray to themselves and others that pray to cows and some that pray to the dead. Not that it is to a higher power but a faith or a belief system that they learned from someone else, whether it is to believe in something or nothing at all I am not sure. There are people who believe in Yoga, they seek inner peace and a connection with their body, mind, and spirit, not that it is a prayer but a seeking of fulfillment of one’s desire.
The dictionary says that prayer is a form of religious practice that seeks to activate a volitional connection to a God or Spirit through deliberate practice. Prayer may be either individual or communal and take place in public or in private. It may also involve the use of words or even songs.
I think that a prayer can be anything that a person wants it to be, that being to a higher power, a God or to oneself.
As a Christian my prayers are to God because that is my personal belief, not that I am right and all others wrong.
One of the problems with our World today is that there are people who want to tell everyone else how to pray, what to believe, and how to believe. I am glad that I live in a county that I still have Religious freedom but I wonder how much longer that will be for.
We could all learn to live better if we could all learn to understand and accept each other for what we are and what we believe or not believe.
Hey Hondo, I see where you're coming from but it's actually "prayer" I'm wondering about. Is it considered a prayer without some formed belief system, as in religion, where there is an expected recipient of that prayer. I consider any belief system to be a form of religion whether it's a cow, a statue or the sun. If you believe that object is a form of Deity then I would consider that a religion and so prayer would serve a purpous. My question is regarding those with no organized belief system in place. People that feel that humanity is all there is, or there's nothing beyond our knowledge or maybe there is something but don't have a name for it. Do they have an emotional system to convey thoughts similar to prayer and if so, what can they expect from it?
I agree about learning to accept each other and we learn by asking questions. It's just that sometimes people don't agree with the answers.
Take care,
Thanks for the input.0 -
Oh Stayingcalm I bet you do believe in Santa Clause, lolstayingcalm said:Hello Believe,
As an atheist, I don't pray to anything or at all. If I say something like "I wish I had a frying pan" it's because my son or boyfriend is nearby and I'm hinting ;-) Nothing higher-power related. I'm interested in what other people will say, here, however!
stayingcalm
*edit - despite my hat, no, I don't believe in Santa Claus, either, sorry ;-)
Just kidding around. Couldn't resist.
That's what I was going to assume about atheists, they don't pray - period. Guess that assumption is right by the sounds of it.
I think it's just when people believe in a higher power so deeply they can't fathom anyone not praying to any higher power period. Prayer is always there to them and I think they assume in others too no matter what their faith says or if they say they have no faith.
Hope you had a good Non Christmas. lol Again, sorry, couldn't resist, sheesh what is wrong with me today. lol
Take care
Bluerose0 -
Prayer: An earnest hope or wish
That's one definition of prayer, "An earnest hope or wish".
Just to clear one thing up here are some definitions.
Agnostic - a person who claims that they cannot have true knowledge about the existence of God (but does not deny that God might exist)
Atheist: a person who does not believe in the existence of God or gods
"Would you agree a wish is just a hope or desire for something with no outside control and a prayer is a thought, desire, or question offered to a deity or higher power of some sort in hopes of that prayer being heard and answered by the deity or higher power?" No, I do not agree with that. I would have to answer your question with the same question back to you. Even with religion, isn't prayer just a wish at times? Isn't the act of praying asking for help or intervention from a specific higher power?
"I think I've heard that Agnostics pray but is that just wishfull thinking since they don't expect an actual result from it." ??? The same can be said for praying to God from someone who does not hold a belief in God. Agnostics who pray do expect results just as people of faith do when they pray. It's no more going through the motions than it is for many who proclaim faith.
So to make things simple, agnostics can pray for people or things just as a person of a religion or faith can and it can have the same "power or result". I do not see any difference at all. I think you may have your definition of Agnostics mixed up with Atheists Chris.0 -
I think it's the Second Time...Marcia527 said:I don't think you are asking
I don't think you are asking me this because I do have faith and a belief in a higher power but don't have a religion. I almost didn't answer for this reason. But it was my belief that Agnostics don't pray. Maybe I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.
Marcia, agnostics can pray. I'm not sure if atheists do though. I doubt atheists pray to God, that's pretty much a given.0 -
Anyway You Want it To Be Definedbelieveit 2011 said:How would a prayer be defined without a religious context?
Thanks Marcia, no, I'm not asking anyone in particular just a thought I had. So, if you don't have a specific religion or "name" for a "higher power", who,or what, are prayers directed to? I've heard this on other forums and wondered how something like that goes. Normaly when I pray it is directed to God, or Jesus, or Saints and I think Pagans would pray to maybe a ruler of nature or the elements. But if someone doesn't have a formed opinion on who or what created Us or the earth, what function does a prayer serve. It's easy when you have guidelines to follow such as in a religion. When one forms their own opinions, what is the intent or function of a prayer. I guess the easy answer is, "what ever they want it to be" but I'm curious though how someone would describe a prayer if they don't follow a normal definition of it. Do you think it holds more value to the recipient if someone says "I hope things work out for you" or "I'm praying for you"?
I wonder...
Prayer: An earnest hope or wish, can be directed to anything a person wants it to be directed to. You're right Chris, "It's easy when you have guidelines to follow such as in a religion." They tell you who to pray to and how to do it. Not unlike how they have their own ways of telling people how they should live their lives.
"When one forms their own opinions, what is the intent or function of a prayer. I guess the easy answer is, "what ever they want it to be" ". YES, very simple. I do not see much of a difference other than one being one's own personal thoughts and methods while the other is being told or scripted how to do it.
Do you think it's not possible to have Faith without Religion or Spirituality without Religion or MUST Religion play a role with how a person interacts with...let's call it a "Higher Power"?
I'm wondering....
I really think it depends on who you say it to. I don't think either saying has more value than the other. "I'm praying for you" at times sounds to me like "how are you?" when people really don't want to hear how you are. "I hope things work out" can be taken as "that's nice...I'm glad I'm not in YOUR shoes".
;-)0 -
Beliefstayingcalm said:Hello Believe,
As an atheist, I don't pray to anything or at all. If I say something like "I wish I had a frying pan" it's because my son or boyfriend is nearby and I'm hinting ;-) Nothing higher-power related. I'm interested in what other people will say, here, however!
stayingcalm
*edit - despite my hat, no, I don't believe in Santa Claus, either, sorry ;-)
Kittens have been known to bring gifts.
I've gotten a few mice but no frying pans yet!0 -
Just a General Observation and Comment
When one has a certain belief system, it does seem that the "other" sides find if so hard to comprehend that someone can believe what they do since it is so foreign to what they believe. Like when people believe in God and believe the bible to be the word of God, they don't see how others can NOT believe in God/the Bible while I'm not sure if there is a God, I can not follow teachings that are thousands of years old and were passed down through word of mouth (for the most part) at a time when the common belief was that the Sun went around the Earth and that the Earth was flat. Change comes with knowledge....knowledge comes with change.
To each their own.
Do no harm.
Treat others as you would like to be treated.
And remember, you are unique! Just like everyone else...0 -
What I meant was that Ibelieveit 2011 said:How would a prayer be defined without a religious context?
Thanks Marcia, no, I'm not asking anyone in particular just a thought I had. So, if you don't have a specific religion or "name" for a "higher power", who,or what, are prayers directed to? I've heard this on other forums and wondered how something like that goes. Normaly when I pray it is directed to God, or Jesus, or Saints and I think Pagans would pray to maybe a ruler of nature or the elements. But if someone doesn't have a formed opinion on who or what created Us or the earth, what function does a prayer serve. It's easy when you have guidelines to follow such as in a religion. When one forms their own opinions, what is the intent or function of a prayer. I guess the easy answer is, "what ever they want it to be" but I'm curious though how someone would describe a prayer if they don't follow a normal definition of it. Do you think it holds more value to the recipient if someone says "I hope things work out for you" or "I'm praying for you"?
I wonder...
What I meant was that I don't follow the rules of any particular religion so I can't call myself anything but I do pray to God or higher power. Sometimes I pray to Jesus. Sometimes I talk (I don't like to call it prayer) to people who have passed on. For me it's a means of communication.
I rarely say I'll pray for someone because I've tried that and found there must be an order to things because it didn't work. I also believe that all it takes is one prayer from that person and God hears it and it's unnecessary to repeat it. But if it makes the person feel better that others are praying then I would say a prayer for them. But if I say I will, I do it.
I don't know who created what or if it is even important. I don't know what God is exactly. I just know God exists. So that is my faith.
I did pray during cancer treatment for God to send an angel to strengthen me.0 -
Are we there yet?PhillieG said:Anyway You Want it To Be Defined
Prayer: An earnest hope or wish, can be directed to anything a person wants it to be directed to. You're right Chris, "It's easy when you have guidelines to follow such as in a religion." They tell you who to pray to and how to do it. Not unlike how they have their own ways of telling people how they should live their lives.
"When one forms their own opinions, what is the intent or function of a prayer. I guess the easy answer is, "what ever they want it to be" ". YES, very simple. I do not see much of a difference other than one being one's own personal thoughts and methods while the other is being told or scripted how to do it.
Do you think it's not possible to have Faith without Religion or Spirituality without Religion or MUST Religion play a role with how a person interacts with...let's call it a "Higher Power"?
I'm wondering....
I really think it depends on who you say it to. I don't think either saying has more value than the other. "I'm praying for you" at times sounds to me like "how are you?" when people really don't want to hear how you are. "I hope things work out" can be taken as "that's nice...I'm glad I'm not in YOUR shoes".
;-)
I hear ya phil but I think religion helps. It's like a map of sorts. It guides you to where you want to be (final destination). You may still get there using a different path but religion kinda says, others have gone this way and been satisfied with the route so you should try it too. You may take a trip (life) and just follow the compass knowing your destination is West(you may or may not arrive but you'll enjoy the trip anyway). You could also use AAA (religion)and they provide a preffered route with a prediction of arrival. You can also follow the course of people slightly ahead of you on the same trip (older family members). So you can ask yourself, is the destination as important as the trip? That's one way religion functions, I guess, by saying the destination is more important than the trip and if you follow the right map you have a better chance of arriving at the place you want to be...
Sorry, Got off subject....0 -
Ok, I get that but... If aPhillieG said:Prayer: An earnest hope or wish
That's one definition of prayer, "An earnest hope or wish".
Just to clear one thing up here are some definitions.
Agnostic - a person who claims that they cannot have true knowledge about the existence of God (but does not deny that God might exist)
Atheist: a person who does not believe in the existence of God or gods
"Would you agree a wish is just a hope or desire for something with no outside control and a prayer is a thought, desire, or question offered to a deity or higher power of some sort in hopes of that prayer being heard and answered by the deity or higher power?" No, I do not agree with that. I would have to answer your question with the same question back to you. Even with religion, isn't prayer just a wish at times? Isn't the act of praying asking for help or intervention from a specific higher power?
"I think I've heard that Agnostics pray but is that just wishfull thinking since they don't expect an actual result from it." ??? The same can be said for praying to God from someone who does not hold a belief in God. Agnostics who pray do expect results just as people of faith do when they pray. It's no more going through the motions than it is for many who proclaim faith.
So to make things simple, agnostics can pray for people or things just as a person of a religion or faith can and it can have the same "power or result". I do not see any difference at all. I think you may have your definition of Agnostics mixed up with Atheists Chris.
Ok, I get that but... If a prayer can just be an "earnest hope or wish" why wouldn't Aethiests pray? I assume they have hopes and make wishes since those things aren't tied to religion or God... In theory an Aethiest can pray to win the lottery. No?0 -
Don't Knowbelieveit 2011 said:Ok, I get that but... If a
Ok, I get that but... If a prayer can just be an "earnest hope or wish" why wouldn't Aethiests pray? I assume they have hopes and make wishes since those things aren't tied to religion or God... In theory an Aethiest can pray to win the lottery. No?
I don't know if atheists pray or not. I would imagine they have their own way of putting out positive vibes for lack of a better word.
Just remember, you have to be in it to win it.
or as a friend of mine used to say "you have to be in it to lose..."
The Lottery by me is $195 Million tonight. I wouldn't pray to win it but I sure hope I do.0 -
Hmmm..Marcia527 said:I'm a little weak on the
I'm a little weak on the difference.
How I see the definition, one thinks there could be a God but doesn't know and knows they do not know (Agnostic) while the other does not think there is a God at all (Atheist).0 -
Surebelieveit 2011 said:Are we there yet?
I hear ya phil but I think religion helps. It's like a map of sorts. It guides you to where you want to be (final destination). You may still get there using a different path but religion kinda says, others have gone this way and been satisfied with the route so you should try it too. You may take a trip (life) and just follow the compass knowing your destination is West(you may or may not arrive but you'll enjoy the trip anyway). You could also use AAA (religion)and they provide a preffered route with a prediction of arrival. You can also follow the course of people slightly ahead of you on the same trip (older family members). So you can ask yourself, is the destination as important as the trip? That's one way religion functions, I guess, by saying the destination is more important than the trip and if you follow the right map you have a better chance of arriving at the place you want to be...
Sorry, Got off subject....
I think religion can help some people get to where they want to go. It probably fits like a glove and that's great for them. I think there is a saying that goes something like this: "There are many paths to heaven". Ha! having just Googled that, I see that it is not something that is accepted by christians or at least the majority of them. It's probably a Buddhist saying that uses "salvation" instead of "heaven".
My point is that I believe there are many ways to get to the same end. I do not think that a person has to go through a religion to get to heaven if that is where they want to get to or that religion is necessary at all. I can understand how there can be comfort for some who are with other like-minded people. It's just not for me.
It's all based on faith. I do not believe that anyone knows the answer and we won't find out until we die.
I do remember one member saying that he wanted to be a christian partly in case they are right and there is God. Cover your bets I guess? That made me laugh. I think it misses the point if that's why one choses to believe in God but again, I certainly could be wrong.
I think that being in the here and now is much more important than what may or may not lie ahead for us so the trip (being living my life) is more important than whether I go to heaven, hell, limbo, purgatory, reincarnation, just dead, or whatever.
Just be nice while we're here.0
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