My Mom Used to Say....

Hatshepsut said:

A Different Perspective and a Modest Proposal
Thank you for your posts. I, too, think dissent and discussion are good things; both stimulate the growth of brain cells! (They probably help build our immunity, too.)

On the other hand, and I mean this respectfully, I think too many people are arguing this point as if it were framed in black and white; in other words, in this discussion of theological speech on the colorectal bulletin board, it would seem that you only have two possible positions in this debate: you are for free speech or you are against free speech. I think it is more nuanced than that.

I ask that you consider the following points.

First, I think the origins for this battle have gotten lost somehow. This discussion did not begin as a general argument about whether people could mention that faith was part of their arsenal to fight cancer. I would venture a belief that the vast majority of people on this board would, without hesitation, defend that kind of free speech on the bulletin board.

The truth is that this board exploded in response to two specific incidents involving posts in the public section of the colorectal bulletin board. One post involved speech that could be interpreted as arguing that "all we deserve is hell" if we don't believe in a specific deity. The second incident, this week, followed a post that seemed to argue that there is a single religious "truth." Two pretty provocative statements. (I don’t want to be accused of misquoting anyone, so I have posted the text to those two posts at the end of this letter.)

As a second point, there is another way to look at the debate going on here that no one appears to have acknowledged. Whenever your belief system (be it religious, secular, political, or whatever) is attacked, in a free society like ours you have at least two possible paths to take. You have a right (as several here have urged) to ignore the insult and walk away. But you also have another, perhaps more honorable, option as well. You have a right to defend your views.

While the free speech issues we face on this bulletin board pale in comparison to those confronted in the incident I am about to cite, I am, nevertheless, reminded of the classic legal anecdote involving a famous ACLU lawyer named A.L. Wirin. His organization was contacted by an infamous anti-Semitic group and asked to defend the group's right to use a school auditorium that was available for public use (they had been turned down in their application to the school district.). Although Jewish, Mr. Wirin represented the anti-Semitic group in court arguing for their rights to free speech and free assembly. He won.

(On the night of the speech, few actually attended the speech but a sizable crowd assembled to protest what the fanatics were saying. A local newspaper published a photo of Mr. Wirin carrying one of the picket signs. In court he had defended the right of the hate group to speak but at the event itself he used his own right of free speech to implore people to reject their ideas. )

My point? Dissent is as American as apple pie. Those who choose to exercise free speech to challenge what they believe is offensive speech are as protected by the concept of the first amendment as are those who use this board to state their views about “hell” and “truths.” And, a challenge to the content of the speech is not necessarily a challenge to the right of the speaker to speak.

Third, there is quite a difference between what you can do and what you should do in life. I’ve only posted one other item on this subject, but I used the can/should argument in that post. (If you are interested, you can read my original post below.) Most of us operate on an ethic that requires that we treat others with the same respect and kindness we hope to receive ourselves. What you can say under the guise of free speech is not always what you should say. Something to think about!

Finally, this is a personal plea for us to find some common ground. A famous eastern religious leader was quoted as answering a question about his religion, "My religion is kindness,” he said. Mine, too. I hope we can all look into our hearts and treat each other with more kindness beginning at this moment.

So… I’ll go first! I don’t claim to know “the truth” and I don’t believe anything terrible will happen to you if you don’t embrace my belief system. And, most importantly, I hope you get well.

Again, thank you for your thoughtful posts. I respect your right to disagree with me.

Hatshepsut










Here are the posts that are referred to in this post:




Posted May 17, 2009 in thread titled: "God and Cancer"


I realize that what I am about to say will not be a popular view on this site, but I feel that it is my job as a Christian to say it.

Seems as though religion has been a huge topic on this board lately. I am always amazed at how two words could stir up so much controversy… GOD & JESUS. Anytime those words are mentioned, you can be sure to get strong reactions from both believers and non-believers. Makes you think, maybe there’s some truth to those powerful names.

Some of you feel that religion has nothing to do with cancer. Well I tend to disagree. Some background about me: My father was diagnosed with stage IV colon cancer with liver mets almost 3 ½ years ago. After six months of chemo, the cancer was completely gone. Was it the chemo or supplements that my dad took? Possibly, but keep this in mind: My father's doctor has been shocked at how well my father has done and has called my father his "Miracle Patient". I believe that ultimately, it was a combination of medicine and endless prayers by me, my family, people on this board, and countless others around the world who offered their prayers when we needed them. It was JESUS that healed my father, whether anyone wants to believe this or not. He not only healed my father physically, He healed me spiritually.

This strong resistance to Jesus and lack of respect for Christians has really offended me personally. Why the rejection? Why is it such a taboo topic on this site? Some of you want to know what works for others in their cancer battles. Well, kids, spouses, pets, etc... those things do help a person get through a diagnosis of cancer, but what about God? When I go through a difficult time in my life, He is the first one I turn to. When my father was first diagnosed, I turned to God, and He blessed me with incredible strength. You can't convince me that God doesn't exist or that He doesn't heal. He does exist and He does heal. I bear witness to that.

As for Christians who think that religion should not be part of a cancer board and feel that it doesn't matter who or what you believe in well, the 1st commandment clearly states: "You shall have no other gods before Me." Exodus 20:3

There are numerous healings in the bible, for example, Matthew 8:1, Matthew 9:1, and Luke 4:38.

If you don’t like what is being written, why not just ignore it??? Why be so offended? Why does it bother you so much? Is it because deep down inside, you know the truth? And to all you Christians...please don't be intimidated by others on this site who are attempting to keep you away.

I couldn’t find the original threads that started this whole religion controversy. Obviously, they have struck some sensitive cords. Yes, it is very important to respect everyone and treat everyone like human beings-both Christians and non-Christians alike. I simply ask that non-believers respect Christians and our beliefs just as they want us to respect them.

God bless,

-Lee-

Posted March 29, 2008 under thread titled " Hi from the Uk! 32 Year Old Liver and Lung Mets"

Well said, Mary!
I have 2 choices on how I can deal with this beast. I can be determined to live and ENJOY my life the best that I can, and to continue this fight as long as I can, or I can give up and whine about the lot I have been given. I've never been much of a whiner, although I do have my days! Jesus gave His life on the cross for my sins, and I owe Him nothing less in return!
Just my thoughts.

Better said than any preacher on TV this a.m. Without HIM, all we deserve is hell.



Posted in thread titled "Buzzard"
April 6, 2009 - 3:10pm
A Statement of Conscience
I think you are right Phillieg. I think many people don't want to speak up on the issue of religion on this board. At least in my case, I have hesitated to get into the fray on this issue. While I read this board regularly, I don't post a lot. Since my husband's diagnosis (stage 3/then stage 4), this board has been a comforting anchor for me, a place where I feel safe, where I can get honest information and where I have gotten genuine support from others. I don't want to lose my connection here. I don't want to be unwelcome when I do post.

Carletta is right, too. It is important to stand up for your convictions.

So, I have decided to post this and to stand up for my convictions.

On issues of free speech, most people seem to understand that there is a difference between what you CAN say and what you SHOULD say, particularly if you profess to follow a moral code that honors kindness. And, most seem to understand that there is a profound difference between speaking or writing about the comfort one gets from religion and presuming to direct religious messages unsolicited to others. It is, in my mind, a matter of mutual respect.

While I honor the rights of other board members to believe in whatever religion they choose (or no religion if that is what they choose), I think a line is crossed when people use this board to proselytize. I remember when my husband was in the hospital in 2007 recovering from a major colon cancer operation, an evangelical minister used to regularly walk the halls of the hospital and enter rooms uninvited to preach his beliefs. I was devastated by my husband's illness (I still am); the last thing I needed at that time was someone intruding upon our privacy to push beliefs upon us that we did not espouse. This man's intrusions made my life more difficult at a time when I didn't think that was possible.

With that said, I can't tell you how upset it made me feel to read on this board that my husband and I (who I think are kind, gentle and good people) apparently deserve to rot in hell because we don't share the beliefs stated by a board member in a recent post. That post (and the objection of another board member to that post) seem to have started this debate that threatens to damage this board. I would be less than honest if I did not say that the startling failure of other people of faith on this board to step in and disassociate themselves from that kind of statement has been disheartening.

Hatshepsut

It is all about TOLERANCE....
Hello Hatshepsut,

Thank you for your well thought and well written response.

Your first point, that the origins of the religious debate has been lost, the debate being if religion should be an acceptable topic on an open discussion forum, is not as lost as you might think. When the subject of religion comes up, with each new thread started, it seems the original statement which fueled the original argument rises again to the surface and the “hell” quote is thrown out. So no, the origin of this debate is still simmering on the stovetop, and thus not lost to anyone, most certainly not to those who would rather like to forget it.

So let’s go back to the original thread and the original quote that started this over-heating pressure cooker of a debate. The quote, as Phil knows so well, was, “Without HIM, all we deserve is hell.” The quote taken out of context and without consideration for the person who wrote it suggests that without a relationship with God/Jesus we ALL deserve hell. Was it a provocative statement, especially interpreted in such a way? Yes, without question it was. Was it intended specifically to target any one person or group of people in particular? No, it was a personal response to another person’s post, albeit on the open forum, and perhaps maybe even inappropriately so (I know for certain the person now wishes she had responded in a PM or not at all). Was it intended to inflame or offend? Most certainly not, and the person who posted the statement quickly apologized to everyone.

Sadly the apology did not seem sufficient and the objections to the “hell” statement spiraled into a controversial question of the appropriateness of the topic of religion on this open forum. Even more sadly, the person who posted the original comment, not intending to offend, was lambasted for it…over and over and over again, in thread after thread, post after post. It was that which became the offensive thing to a group of people here, mostly Christian, because it was not so much that a single person was being attacked, but an entire belief system and their right to speak of it freely.

In all the various threads about faith and religion and those who believe or not believe there are posts which implicitly and explicitly suggest religion should not be an appropriate topic on this board. For example, this posted statement which read, “I don't understand how people can leave politics out of this forum but they can't leave religion out of it. The two are one and the same and don't belong in any forum other than a religious or a political forum.” And this, another post, “I agree that everyone is enttitled [sic] to their beliefs but this board isn't really the place for certain things that are said.“ And then there were outright suggestions for the creation of a new and separate message board for those who specifically want to express the role of faith with respect to their cancer experience.

So in the context of outright suggestions and numerous invitations that people of faith should go elsewhere to express the role of faith in their cancer experience, doesn’t it imply that people are not free to express religious views on this forum?

And you aptly point out the right of dissent, and correct in the notion that whatever someone’s point of view might be, free speech must be free to everyone, regardless of what side of discussion or debate a person may be on. With respect to this particular discussion, I don’t recall anyone who started any religious thread or expressed a religious point of view suggested that people who do not agree with them should go elsewhere, like a non-believers (and I use that term VERY loosely here, for lack of a better term) forum, thus suggesting that non-believers should not express their differing views on this forum. Conversely, non-believers have suggested the opposite, that people of faith should take their faith elsewhere.

You are also correct to point out that there is a difference between what one can say and what one should say. However, we are all fallible human creatures and sometimes people speak…or type and hit post…before they really think about what they are saying and what might possibly be interpreted in what is written – things which are read between the lines and are highly subject to interpretation. I did point this out in several posts I’ve made - that people must appreciate that in many cases it is not necessarily what someone says, but how they say it that makes all the difference in how others will respond. In an open forum however, we have to acknowledge we are all different and some will better articulate a point of view than others. With this in mind, we cannot take things so personally, especially if a statement or a post is not directed at us personally.

Now back to my original post….my original post here at the top of this page was to encourage people to be nice, to implore people to be tolerant, and to plead with people to be respectful. When I read the “God and Cancer” thread I suspected it was going to refuel the religion debate, but what really inspired me to make my post was because I was incredibly disturbed to read the responses to and the ridicule of a newbie’s post about looking for a friend of the opposite gender, looking for companionship and romance. I had to write because reading some of those replies/posts became so distasteful to me – they were mean spirited. So what if someone wants to try to make a love connection here! I did. How does that offend anyone? And to admonish or make fun of the person is/was deplorable. It is horrible to welcome a new member in such a way. Anyone who judged, admonished or ridiculed her really should apologize, but this is just my opinion. And so what if someone wants to invite God or their higher power into their cancer experience and share it with us. It is their right! Can’t we be tolerant enough to either share it with them or if it is disagreeable to us then not participate in it? And as for free speech - inviting someone to leave this board because they want to write about religion, or politics, or alternative cancer treatments, or love, or anything else is not exercising their right to free speech, it is exercising intolerance.

My hope now is, after too many words having been written and too many feathers having been ruffled…and too many feelings having been hurt…that we be accepting, welcoming, respectful, and kind to one another. It is with these things that we will enjoy the camaraderie, friendship, and support so many of us have been missing on this board lately.

“By swallowing evil [unkind] words unsaid, no one has ever harmed his stomach.” ~Winston Churchill

Buzzard said:

Thank you........
Well said and right on the button.....

THANK YOU!
Thank you Babs, Kimby, Vicki, Wes, Pink, and Buzzard, and anyone else, for the encouragement. I do appreciate it!