Radiation fibrosis of the neck
Hi everybody,
I had throat surgery back in March of 2017 to remove/rebuild most of my tongue, with radical dissection of my neck to remove lymph nodes on both sides, followed by radiation and chemotherapy four weeks later. After the radiation, I developed severe radiation fibrosis in most of the front part of my neck. Most of the muscles in my throat are completely locked up and will not move. I can't say that I feel that my Radiation Oncologist was at the top of his class, but no one seems to know anything about how to soften the fibrosis or how to treat it. Everyone keeps saying that this is simply the "New" me and I should learn to live with it. Sorry but I can't learn to live like this. I breathe through a trachea tube and am completely unable to swallow at all.
My question is simply, does anybody know of anything that helps with radiation fibrosis?
Comments
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Hı Twoatepr
I have radiation fibrosis on the rıght sise of my neck. My sugery and RT were in 2016. My radiation oncologist thinks that fibrosis is irreversible. However physiotherapists say the even fibrotic tissue can loosen up with appeopriare masaj treatment and excersise. I have been doing excercises and going to physio therapy.ı had three different PT so far. They all were using different techniques. My understanding is there is no well known method. My neck getting better. Recently I stop going PT, but I myself give my neck a masage, As I learnt during PT sesions. Also using bio oil or essential oils to aoften the skin. If you want to reach me please feel free to do so.
Good luck
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I rejected the idea of "the
I rejected the idea of "the new me" from day one. When I first was diagnosed my doctors and even many people on this board would talk about "the new me" and it was usually a way to brush off a lessened quality of life post cancer treatment. I simply refused to allow myself that excuse. The old me didn't want a new me. It was why I fired my doctors that wanted to do neck dissections and found a cancer center that didn't cut first. It was why I refused a PEG tube and a chemo port. The old me looked at those things as giving in to my cancer. The docs couldn't give me a single medical reason as to why I needed to have a dissection prior to treatment or how a PEG tube or chemo port was medically necessary at this point. So, I took charge of my treatment and rejected those things. I wasn't being stubborn, I was being the old me that didn't want to be a "new me" with hoses coming out of me and unnecessary scars and side effects and distractions. But, i did ask what can be done to lessen any side effects. My nutritionist and rehab docs were both very happy with my decision not to do a PEG tube. They said that constant use of your neck and throat were key to avoiding complications and radiation fibrosis. They said, making yourself eat 4x a day and neck exercises 20+ times a day should ensure I did not have neck/throat issues post treatment. And, sure enough, 6 months post treatment and I am 100% the old me (just with a tad bit drier throat - and virtually no epiglottis [from the radiation]).
As terrible as it was - and I can't express enough how terrible it truly was - I forced myself to use my throat throughout treatment. I was radiated in 3 places; base of tongue and either side of jaw. My wife had to walk outside while i consumed my calories because it was too much for her to watch. I'd scream, I'd cry, blood would come out of my mouth, I'd stomp my feet, etc. But it was what had to be done.
All that said, I did meet several people who did suffer from radiation fibrosis. Two in particular had extremely stiff necks they attributed to simply not using their throats at all the entirety of treatment - and were not encourage to use their throats by their docs. Both are in their 70's and fell into deep depression. One snapped out of it and started doing all kinds of rehabilitation and can now eat soft foods with lots of liquid to push it down - but he does choke some. Docs think it may get even better over the next year. The other, continued in his depression and will probably be on a feeding tube for life.
Don't give up your refusal to have a old you life again. Your fight simply isn't over yet. 99% of that fight now is in your head. Stay positive and improvement will surely be the result.0 -
By the time I got to 'post' I
By the time I got to 'post' I was willing to take any me that wasn't in a wheelchair and on oxygen. So far, so good. The recycled me has many old parts (and Indiana Jones got it wrong, it's both the miles AND the years), but they seem to mostly still work. Some new features were added, including neck fibrosis. I got the PT/massage, it helped, but it comes back anyway. Any form of lazyness gets punished, so if I forget to do the stretching exercises I get reminded by the next morning. One thing I am doing sorta religiously is skin moisturizer in my burn zone. That seriously seems to help with the stiffness, so I suspect the stiffness is actually a compound condition combining fibrosis, lizard skin, and lymphedema. I just had a recheck with my rad onc, I explained my theory to him and his very talented rad-onc nurse, they agreed it was a theory, and rewarded me by trying to examine my prostate thru my esophagus. I know I'm getting old and weak because he's done that repeatedly and still has all his fingers.
Not all is grim and hopeless. I have managed to keep my weight gain to four pounds for 16 months now (Suzj: Here's looking at you kid), and many good things come from that. Rad/onc nurse says I now have the blood pressure of a 25 y.o. Did a lipid panel and my cholesterol health is stunning, I seriously completely dropped out of the risk categories on that. Exercise is sort of weird, I use to be able to get my heart rate up swimming or doing the elliptical, do my 20 minutes and feel virtuous. Now I have to push to get my rate up, which I don't much do, so at least in theory exercise is less beneficial. But I also skied hard last week (Colorado is FINALLY getting snow, just in time for runoff), and was not tired at the end of the day.
I don't so much think I beat cancer as much as feel we fought to a stand-off.
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helpful for me
At 5 years out, there is stiff and tighened muscles running right where the radiation ran along my neck. Fortunately, it is managed by daily neck stretching and self massaging. Often times it is a week between spasms so I feel very lucky. The doctors say this is normal; I could be referred to PT but my DIY PT works fine. Everyone is different and as long as we do as much as we can to stay as healthy as we can, that's the end goal. Good luck. don
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Hello Twostepr
You like to dance ?
Did your swallowing problem happen gradually after treatment with this second bout of cancer ? Or did it happen right after your neck dissectiom ? Did you get the trachea tube when you had the neck dissection ?
Have you been able to see a physical therapist who specializes in radiation fibrosis ? Has anyone mentioned trying botulism shots ? Are you being treated at a large cancer center ?
Sorry for all the questions. Just trying to learn a little more about your situation.
I too use a feeding tube (my second one) which was needed after my neck dissection. My neck dissection was a year after my radiation and Erbitux treatment and was needed because my cancer returned in just a matter of months. However, if I wanted to live on all liquid and/or all VERY soft diet, I could probably get rid of the tube. I don't want to live on Ensure and Boost. I can swallow but not very well.
My thoughts and prayers are with you so you find health professionals who are able to help you.
Jan
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Hi DanceSkater Jan
Hi Jan,
My swallowing problem came from being between a rock and a hard spot. I could not swallow at all after my first surgery in March of 2017. They had cut most of my tongue out and rebuilt it, including the "flap" that covers your trachea when you swallow, using tissue from my thigh. Four weeks later, right before and up to about the first two weeks of radiation, I had got to the point that I could drink liquids if I took it slow, but I had to use a syringe and squirt the water in my mouth because I couldn't tilt my head back due to the incision across my neck from the disection. At that point, everything got too irritated from the radiation and I quit trying to swallow rather than dive into the pain meds. I had been cut from ear to ear because they removed lymph nodes from both sides of my neck. I started developing "wooden neck" as they call it, or radiation fibrosis, along about that time. My neck started getting hard, stiff, and really sore. Well, three months after the radiation, I was doing fair but then I had to have a second surgery on my neck for a "look/see" because I still could not get my breathing and swallowing separated due to the flap being too big. So they cut into the same area again. More scar tissue, more "wooden neck". Well, Doc developed his plan, and I had my third surgery in Nov. 2017 where he trimmed the flap so I could breathe better. Cut again, same areas. More scar tissue, more wooden neck. When that healed, I could breathe great, but I still could not swallow because of the scar tissue. Well, Doc decides that he can help me swallow by moving my voicebox under the flap a little closer which would open up the top of my esophagus. Surgery number four. Same area, more scarring. That was March 15th of this year. Just a few weeks ago.
At this point, the entire front portion of my neck feels more like my knee cap or maybe an elbow but it is extremely stiff and surrounds most of the muscles in my neck as well. Movement of my head is limited. Side to side is fair at best but up and down is really tough. But four surgeries in a year plus the radiation has really done a number on things. I have pretty extreme scarring, or fibrosis, wooden neck, whatever you choose to call it. Supposedly, physical therapy and exercise is the only way to get things moving but so far every time I got healed enough to start any kind of exercising or therapy, they decide to cut me again. But, at this point, I think they have cut about all that they can cut. I think it's up to PT and exercise now. Once everything heals from this last surgery, I can at least get started on that but right now, Doc says no stretching or pulling on things until the surgery heals.
I live in a very small town SC. I have to drive three hours to MUSC in Charleston because that is where my surgeries were done. Closest place that could rebuild my tongue rather than just take it out. I did my radiation and chemo at SCOA in Columbia. (SC Oncology Assoc.). I have been scheduled to start PT on my neck three different times so far and have had to stop each time because of another whack at me by a doctor. About the closest physical therapist that can do pt on the neck area is Columbia, about an hour and a half away. I still see my Dr. at SCOA every four months now just so they can bill my insurance, and I still have a couple more visits to make to Charleston, but I think everybody is about done with the chop and hack part. Now I'm at the point of getting some movement going to see if I can get some swallowing going on. Now it's down to finding some way to loosen up the scar tissue. The Dr.s are saying PT and exercise. I think I would settle for a neck removal and just live on my "tubes" but I plan to push hard on the therapy and exercise as soon as I feel I'm healed enough to not pull something loose.
Hopefully, I'm there. I have already started stretching some but I know now that I have a ways to go. I have to get my neck moving a lot farther than it is now, and some muscles loosened up. I have a little farther to travel down my highway but I'm hopeful, and trying to stay positive.
Sorry, I didn't mean to write a book. And yes, I dance. Not much in the last year now, but pretty much all my life. I'm about ready to get back to some. And a cup of coffee would be nice. When I can swallow again.
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excercises
I didnt believe it until recently - but they are essential.
Look up 10 x
Look down 10 x
get your head turned left and left ear over left shoulder x 10
Same with right x 10
massage, gentle 1 or 2 fingers on your scar, just so you feel the skin sliding around on the layer below..
I get some seriously wierd looks when Im driving - massaging - and stop lights, for the stretching - but I have a jawbone, and a shrinking neck, and nothings gonna stop me now!
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Thanks so far
I want to thank everybody for the responses so far. I was wondering, has anybody tried the "enzyme" therapy like this Serracor or the Serrapeptase and such? They claim to dissolve fibrosis but I don't see anybody on here mentioning them and the doctors don't seem to know much about it either. Sounds like a scam but I thought I would ask. I have also heard that Vitamin E and aloe in a lotion helps. Would anybody have any info on, or have you tried any of those?
Finally starting to do some of the exercises and man, everything in my neck is tight! Plus, a little rough on the tracea tube. I have an area about the size of my hand, right in the front of my neck from the jaw line down, that is as stiff as wood. (duh) Looks like this is going to take just a little while longer.
One step at a time, right? Back to my exercises.
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rolling pinTwostepr said:Thanks so far
I want to thank everybody for the responses so far. I was wondering, has anybody tried the "enzyme" therapy like this Serracor or the Serrapeptase and such? They claim to dissolve fibrosis but I don't see anybody on here mentioning them and the doctors don't seem to know much about it either. Sounds like a scam but I thought I would ask. I have also heard that Vitamin E and aloe in a lotion helps. Would anybody have any info on, or have you tried any of those?
Finally starting to do some of the exercises and man, everything in my neck is tight! Plus, a little rough on the tracea tube. I have an area about the size of my hand, right in the front of my neck from the jaw line down, that is as stiff as wood. (duh) Looks like this is going to take just a little while longer.
One step at a time, right? Back to my exercises.
I have used rolling pins, both the thin ones and larger ones with handles. There are plenty of other neck massage devices; try a few out.
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Wow .....Twostepr said:Hi DanceSkater Jan
Hi Jan,
My swallowing problem came from being between a rock and a hard spot. I could not swallow at all after my first surgery in March of 2017. They had cut most of my tongue out and rebuilt it, including the "flap" that covers your trachea when you swallow, using tissue from my thigh. Four weeks later, right before and up to about the first two weeks of radiation, I had got to the point that I could drink liquids if I took it slow, but I had to use a syringe and squirt the water in my mouth because I couldn't tilt my head back due to the incision across my neck from the disection. At that point, everything got too irritated from the radiation and I quit trying to swallow rather than dive into the pain meds. I had been cut from ear to ear because they removed lymph nodes from both sides of my neck. I started developing "wooden neck" as they call it, or radiation fibrosis, along about that time. My neck started getting hard, stiff, and really sore. Well, three months after the radiation, I was doing fair but then I had to have a second surgery on my neck for a "look/see" because I still could not get my breathing and swallowing separated due to the flap being too big. So they cut into the same area again. More scar tissue, more "wooden neck". Well, Doc developed his plan, and I had my third surgery in Nov. 2017 where he trimmed the flap so I could breathe better. Cut again, same areas. More scar tissue, more wooden neck. When that healed, I could breathe great, but I still could not swallow because of the scar tissue. Well, Doc decides that he can help me swallow by moving my voicebox under the flap a little closer which would open up the top of my esophagus. Surgery number four. Same area, more scarring. That was March 15th of this year. Just a few weeks ago.
At this point, the entire front portion of my neck feels more like my knee cap or maybe an elbow but it is extremely stiff and surrounds most of the muscles in my neck as well. Movement of my head is limited. Side to side is fair at best but up and down is really tough. But four surgeries in a year plus the radiation has really done a number on things. I have pretty extreme scarring, or fibrosis, wooden neck, whatever you choose to call it. Supposedly, physical therapy and exercise is the only way to get things moving but so far every time I got healed enough to start any kind of exercising or therapy, they decide to cut me again. But, at this point, I think they have cut about all that they can cut. I think it's up to PT and exercise now. Once everything heals from this last surgery, I can at least get started on that but right now, Doc says no stretching or pulling on things until the surgery heals.
I live in a very small town SC. I have to drive three hours to MUSC in Charleston because that is where my surgeries were done. Closest place that could rebuild my tongue rather than just take it out. I did my radiation and chemo at SCOA in Columbia. (SC Oncology Assoc.). I have been scheduled to start PT on my neck three different times so far and have had to stop each time because of another whack at me by a doctor. About the closest physical therapist that can do pt on the neck area is Columbia, about an hour and a half away. I still see my Dr. at SCOA every four months now just so they can bill my insurance, and I still have a couple more visits to make to Charleston, but I think everybody is about done with the chop and hack part. Now I'm at the point of getting some movement going to see if I can get some swallowing going on. Now it's down to finding some way to loosen up the scar tissue. The Dr.s are saying PT and exercise. I think I would settle for a neck removal and just live on my "tubes" but I plan to push hard on the therapy and exercise as soon as I feel I'm healed enough to not pull something loose.
Hopefully, I'm there. I have already started stretching some but I know now that I have a ways to go. I have to get my neck moving a lot farther than it is now, and some muscles loosened up. I have a little farther to travel down my highway but I'm hopeful, and trying to stay positive.
Sorry, I didn't mean to write a book. And yes, I dance. Not much in the last year now, but pretty much all my life. I'm about ready to get back to some. And a cup of coffee would be nice. When I can swallow again.
You've had 4 surgeries on the same location and some of them on radiated skin in one year !!! OMG !! I can't even imagine.
Did the doc make a new epigottis for you ? If it works, will you be able to get the trach tube removed ? My epiglottis is misshapen and does not work all that great due to radiation. I think something happened to a tongue nerve during my left radical neck dissection. That's part of the reason I have trouble swwallowing.
I also use Isosource 1.5 Cal. Never had any problems using it. I do a "feeding" in about 10 minutes. Have even done a few in parking lots while on a trip.
I know you asked about vitamin E and aloe in another post. I'd go ahead and use it. It can't hurt and if nothing else it will help your skin.
Don't go overboard on the exercises until you see a therapist. The therapist will teach you the exercises that are right for your condition.
You are an inspiration !!!
Jan
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Hi JanDanceSkater said:Wow .....
You've had 4 surgeries on the same location and some of them on radiated skin in one year !!! OMG !! I can't even imagine.
Did the doc make a new epigottis for you ? If it works, will you be able to get the trach tube removed ? My epiglottis is misshapen and does not work all that great due to radiation. I think something happened to a tongue nerve during my left radical neck dissection. That's part of the reason I have trouble swwallowing.
I also use Isosource 1.5 Cal. Never had any problems using it. I do a "feeding" in about 10 minutes. Have even done a few in parking lots while on a trip.
I know you asked about vitamin E and aloe in another post. I'd go ahead and use it. It can't hurt and if nothing else it will help your skin.
Don't go overboard on the exercises until you see a therapist. The therapist will teach you the exercises that are right for your condition.
You are an inspiration !!!
Jan
Hi Jan,
Yep. Doc made me a new epiglottis and about 70% of the back of my tongue with tissue from my left thigh. Somehow, he cuts a long thin strip, reconnects blood vessels, nerves, whatever he does, and he weaves it together and rebuilt the whole back part of my tongue down to just above my voicebox. My donor site was about fourteen inches from just above my knee up to almost the fold at my upper thigh area.
As far as the trach tube, it's kind of a choice. If I want to breathe better, I give up swallowing and live on a PEG tube, and give up the trach tube eventually. They would have to do another surgery. If I want to swallow, they will do another surgery that might work, but I live with a trach tube. My choice would be to lose the trach tube and keep the PEG. At least I can talk that way. Right now the goal is to try to fix both my breathing and my swallow but that may not be possible. What Mom used to call "robbing Peter to pay Paul". Either way, I guess time will tell.
Thanks for your kind words too. I would hope that we are all an inspiration to each other in one way or another. That's why we come here, right?
One step at a time.
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