newly diagnosed Gleason 6 65 years old

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  • hopeful and optimistic
    hopeful and optimistic Member Posts: 2,339 Member
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    Your a genius

    I also eat as you do; some fish on occassion...no fried or oils, etc. A year ago, I had my B12 and D3 levels tested. Since my B12 was too low I now take 1000 mcg B-12 a few times a week......I also take 1000iu D3 daily.

    My opinion is that less is better as far as supplements.  Some of them have a negative effect on health, for example selenium and vitamin E. There was a study, called "the select study" done a few years ago among 35,000 men to measure the postive effects of these supplements  , however the study was stopped midway, since the study showed that taking these supplements had a negative effect with respect to prostate cancer.

    If you take a multiple vitamin, you may wish to consider taking a women's or childs multiple vitamin, since there is a good amount of vitamin e and I think selenium in men's multiple.

    UCSF, nutrition and prostate cancer

    https://www.ucsfhealth.org/education/nutrition_and_prostate_cancer/

     

     

     

  • Grinder
    Grinder Member Posts: 487 Member
    edited August 2017 #23
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    More two cents

    Also I have noticed many men's supplements have Vit K in large doses... Vitamin K?! That's the blood clotting vitamin. There is plenty of natural K in kale, Brussels sprouts, broccoli, etc. Then after you OD on K they put you on blood thinners and tell you to stop eating salads, but never mention Vit K in supplements. So if you are dealing with DVThrombosis or Embolisms or clotting issues, avoid supplements with Vit K.

    And stress... Stress takes energy away from the body's immune response and puts the body in fight or flight mode. It was never meant to last longer than the time it takes to escape danger, yet we live in it 24 hours a day. Then we are sick all the time as our bodies never return to normal including immune response. So, yeah, relaxation is important way of hitting the "reset" button for your immune system. I've yapped a lot about red meat too, but you don't have that problem, fortunately. Good for you, Dennis.

  • SubDenis
    SubDenis Member Posts: 130 Member
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    Grinder said:

    More two cents

    Also I have noticed many men's supplements have Vit K in large doses... Vitamin K?! That's the blood clotting vitamin. There is plenty of natural K in kale, Brussels sprouts, broccoli, etc. Then after you OD on K they put you on blood thinners and tell you to stop eating salads, but never mention Vit K in supplements. So if you are dealing with DVThrombosis or Embolisms or clotting issues, avoid supplements with Vit K.

    And stress... Stress takes energy away from the body's immune response and puts the body in fight or flight mode. It was never meant to last longer than the time it takes to escape danger, yet we live in it 24 hours a day. Then we are sick all the time as our bodies never return to normal including immune response. So, yeah, relaxation is important way of hitting the "reset" button for your immune system. I've yapped a lot about red meat too, but you don't have that problem, fortunately. Good for you, Dennis.

    Thrive, author, recommends no

    Thrive, author, recommends no white food like rice bread, pasta, etc.  That is not going to be easy. 

  • GeorgeG
    GeorgeG Member Posts: 152
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    Look into 3 Tesla dynamic

    Look into 3 Tesla endo rectal coil dynamic multi parametric MRI with contrast. It is the best imaging capability today to help assess the extent of your disease to help with an informed decision on AS. Imaging has been an issue in PC and before now not a very useful tool for diagnosis. It can also then be used to perform a fusion biopsy which guides the process to get the most useful information. I would not do AS without this process.

     

    George

     

  • Max Former Hodgkins Stage 3
    Max Former Hodgkins Stage 3 Member Posts: 3,813 Member
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    SubDenis said:

    Thanks, I have not started

    Thanks, I have not started the Thrive book yet but will soon. It is about nutrition, exercise and stress reduction, according to the forward.  

    Today I had a good round of golf with a good friend. I also chatted with another who is having his prostate removed this week.  And finally went for a long ride on my motorcycle.  My records have been sent to Yale, so hopefully can get that process going soon.  I am in a good place each day seems a little better.  I appreciate everyone's help!  Thanks, Denis

    Diet

    Diet has very little to no role in PCa, or most other cancers, for that matter.  Any suggested links are tenuous and reasonably suspect. PCa happens to vegans as often as it does to bacon addicts.  My brother is a Meagan, a meat-only eater, and suggests that we get onboard with vegtable rights.....  Many ancient Hindus wore masks to not inhale gnats, which they viewed as murder (Thoreau describes this in his American classic Walden).  It is a logical progression from where PC America is today.  I have not joined up, and myself have always eaten a balanced diet, rich especially in greens.  But I have had two cancers.  And what I ate had no role. 

    A report several years ago said that truck drivers have higher PCa rates than other men, possibly due to "vibration," so I would avoid that motorcycle (after all, a "study" has "proved" that vibration is bad, and "causes" PCa).  And don't call on a cell phone, lest your brain rot out. I can recall when microwave ovens first became popular: many believed it would be the extermination of housewives throughout developed nations.  The largest compilation study regarding coronary heart disease in history was conducted jointly by Harvard and Cambridge Universities five years ago. It concluded that saturated fat has no (zero, undetectable) role in heart disease. None, nada.  But does one ever hear of changes to dietary suggestions in the US since its publication ?  Of course not, and neither will we, either.

    http://articles.latimes.com/2013/oct/29/science/la-sci-sn-prostate-cancer-truck-driver-risk-20131029

    http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/new-evidence-raises-questions-about-the-link-between-fatty-acids-and-heart-disease

    "Saw Palmetto" has been a multi-billion dollar seller to avoid PCa for decades, but all of the best studies show it to be of zero (no) worth.   Most cancers are due to randomly corrupted cell replications, with diet and genetics having no role.  Not all, but some.  And yes, diet is established as having a role in some cancers, mostly colorectal.  Otherwise, we are dealing with the luck of the draw.   But if a food item or health practice gives a man some sense of "control," I am all for it.   I was fanatical about my health in my teens and 20s, and, like many guys at the time, bought Jim Fixx's books on runner health. He wrote bestsellers on how to jog to prevent heart attacks. I read these religiously, and ran 26 miles a week for years.  Then, at 52 years of age, Jim Fixx died of a heart attck while running !  The world authority on how to not have a heart attck by running, dies, young, of the same, while running.   No one could make this stuff up.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Fixx

    max

  • SubDenis
    SubDenis Member Posts: 130 Member
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    GeorgeG said:

    Look into 3 Tesla dynamic

    Look into 3 Tesla endo rectal coil dynamic multi parametric MRI with contrast. It is the best imaging capability today to help assess the extent of your disease to help with an informed decision on AS. Imaging has been an issue in PC and before now not a very useful tool for diagnosis. It can also then be used to perform a fusion biopsy which guides the process to get the most useful information. I would not do AS without this process.

     

    George

     

    Thanks, I hope it is not as

    Thanks, I hope it is not as painful as it is to say the title of that MRI!  ;-)

  • GeorgeG
    GeorgeG Member Posts: 152
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    I did not find the MRi or the

    I did not find the MRi or the biopsy to be very painful. I even opted out of the sedation during the MRI. The only thing that was a little unsettling was the ejaculate for a week or so after the biopsy but then that cleared up and everything was back to normal.

     

    George

  • airborne72
    airborne72 Member Posts: 300 Member
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    Biopsies vintage 2009

    Denis:

    This has been an interesting thread so I feel compelled to add my opinion.  What causes prostate cancer?  It's a combination of genetics (totally out of our control) and lifestyle (diet, rest, exercise + exposures).  The second half of this equation is where we can exert influence, but are our actions actually therapuetic?  Meat or no meat.  No white bread.  Eat lots of tomatoes.  Don't wear tight underwear.  Always wear an athletic supporter.  Increase the frequency of ejaculation.  And the list continues ad nauseum.

    When the cause of and the cure for prostate cancer is discovered the public will quickly be made aware.  In the meantime I subscribe to the "all things in balance" approach, with an exception for cold beer.

    Now, back to the primary reason for my post.  I wanted to share my prostate cancer detection and quantification process, vintage 2009.  I had no baseline PSA.  My first was 17 and that was detected during a routine physical exam that I underwent in preparation for a spinal fusion surgery.  Prostate cancer trumped back pain so all efforts were redirected to it.  Very soon after that I had a DRE with minimal results and was then scheduled for a rectal biopsy.  A few days later after completing a partial colon cleanse I had the needle biopsy.  The urologist used the Michael Jackson drug (proponol?).  I was down quickly and up quickly.  Unfortunately, the residual numbing from the drug lasted just long enough for me to make it back to my car and get stuck in metropolitan, afternoon traffic.  I felt like some one had kicked me in the nuts and inserted a broom handle up my anus.  I had prostate biopsy road rage!  That pain dissipated after about 8 hours.

    My path results came back and indicated that I had just about all quadrants contaminated.  Surgery was recommended by all urologists that I visited (got three different opinions) so that is what I did.  The surgeon took out a wide margin and said that as a consequence I would not need chemo or radiation.  In that regard I was lucky, but my surgery was not without complications - thank you Da Vinci robot.

    Short version: the robot discharged a "c Clip" inside my bladder.  That piece of plastic eventually (60 days) migrated down my ureter and out of my penis, leaving a trail of scar tissue.  On two separate ocassions I had to undergo a "cysto something" procedure to remove scar tissue (akin to a roto rooter).  I could not urinate prior to the procedures and then afterward I was on fire when I did empty my bladder.  I kept telling myself that I was cancer free and should be happy but I was temporarily challenged in getting my mind right. 

    Is there anything in this post that is a take-away for Denis?  Sure.  Get multiple opinions.  Don't assume that the newest, highest tech device is best.  Seek treatment at a facility that is not a research/educational facility if you want personal attention.  Make a list of all the bad contingencies that can result from a simple surgery.  Remain flexible and patient.  Always maintain a positive attitude and a sense of humor.  And, consider the remote possibility that you had occupational exposure living in a submarine - that's something to think about.

    Jim

  • SubDenis
    SubDenis Member Posts: 130 Member
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    Do your homework

    Hi,

    I know it helped my piece of mind to do a lot of reasearch on Pca and also the treatment modes.  When I knew what the disease is and how to treat it, it helped me select the best course of treatment for me.  Each person is different on their choices and thats OK.  There are a lot of good treatments available to help us deal with the disease.  My Urologist told me that I would not die from Pca but I know it might still be a long journey.  Good luck & study,study,study, knowledge is key.  Livin six months at a time..........................

    Dave 3+4

    Thanks, Dave and I totally

    Thanks, Dave and I totally agree the more I know the more comfortable I feel.  I also want to be well informed when I meet with Yale docs. When my Urologist told me I was stymied and unable to ask intelligent questions. I wish you well on your journey. Denis

  • SubDenis
    SubDenis Member Posts: 130 Member
    edited August 2017 #31
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    Your a genius

    I also eat as you do; some fish on occassion...no fried or oils, etc. A year ago, I had my B12 and D3 levels tested. Since my B12 was too low I now take 1000 mcg B-12 a few times a week......I also take 1000iu D3 daily.

    My opinion is that less is better as far as supplements.  Some of them have a negative effect on health, for example selenium and vitamin E. There was a study, called "the select study" done a few years ago among 35,000 men to measure the postive effects of these supplements  , however the study was stopped midway, since the study showed that taking these supplements had a negative effect with respect to prostate cancer.

    If you take a multiple vitamin, you may wish to consider taking a women's or childs multiple vitamin, since there is a good amount of vitamin e and I think selenium in men's multiple.

    UCSF, nutrition and prostate cancer

    https://www.ucsfhealth.org/education/nutrition_and_prostate_cancer/

     

     

     

    Thanks I looked and will stop

    Thanks I looked and will stop my multivitamin until I see the docs.  Be well. Denis

  • SubDenis
    SubDenis Member Posts: 130 Member
    Options

    Biopsies vintage 2009

    Denis:

    This has been an interesting thread so I feel compelled to add my opinion.  What causes prostate cancer?  It's a combination of genetics (totally out of our control) and lifestyle (diet, rest, exercise + exposures).  The second half of this equation is where we can exert influence, but are our actions actually therapuetic?  Meat or no meat.  No white bread.  Eat lots of tomatoes.  Don't wear tight underwear.  Always wear an athletic supporter.  Increase the frequency of ejaculation.  And the list continues ad nauseum.

    When the cause of and the cure for prostate cancer is discovered the public will quickly be made aware.  In the meantime I subscribe to the "all things in balance" approach, with an exception for cold beer.

    Now, back to the primary reason for my post.  I wanted to share my prostate cancer detection and quantification process, vintage 2009.  I had no baseline PSA.  My first was 17 and that was detected during a routine physical exam that I underwent in preparation for a spinal fusion surgery.  Prostate cancer trumped back pain so all efforts were redirected to it.  Very soon after that I had a DRE with minimal results and was then scheduled for a rectal biopsy.  A few days later after completing a partial colon cleanse I had the needle biopsy.  The urologist used the Michael Jackson drug (proponol?).  I was down quickly and up quickly.  Unfortunately, the residual numbing from the drug lasted just long enough for me to make it back to my car and get stuck in metropolitan, afternoon traffic.  I felt like some one had kicked me in the nuts and inserted a broom handle up my anus.  I had prostate biopsy road rage!  That pain dissipated after about 8 hours.

    My path results came back and indicated that I had just about all quadrants contaminated.  Surgery was recommended by all urologists that I visited (got three different opinions) so that is what I did.  The surgeon took out a wide margin and said that as a consequence I would not need chemo or radiation.  In that regard I was lucky, but my surgery was not without complications - thank you Da Vinci robot.

    Short version: the robot discharged a "c Clip" inside my bladder.  That piece of plastic eventually (60 days) migrated down my ureter and out of my penis, leaving a trail of scar tissue.  On two separate ocassions I had to undergo a "cysto something" procedure to remove scar tissue (akin to a roto rooter).  I could not urinate prior to the procedures and then afterward I was on fire when I did empty my bladder.  I kept telling myself that I was cancer free and should be happy but I was temporarily challenged in getting my mind right. 

    Is there anything in this post that is a take-away for Denis?  Sure.  Get multiple opinions.  Don't assume that the newest, highest tech device is best.  Seek treatment at a facility that is not a research/educational facility if you want personal attention.  Make a list of all the bad contingencies that can result from a simple surgery.  Remain flexible and patient.  Always maintain a positive attitude and a sense of humor.  And, consider the remote possibility that you had occupational exposure living in a submarine - that's something to think about.

    Jim

    Jim thanks for your

    Jim thanks for your experience, it is in others experience that I get informed.  I plan multiple opinions and know I have time due to my early detection.  Hmm, sitting on nuclear torpedos, being inches away from Posideon missile MRVS, being on a nuclear submarine...   I choose to not worry about how I got it, rather what is the next right thing that I need to do.  

    I do have the philosophy/belief that the better shape I am in the easier it will be for my body and mind to deal with what ever the future holds.  Again thanks, buddy!  

  • GeorgeG
    GeorgeG Member Posts: 152
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    Research shows that there is a stronger link to diet with PC than some other cancers so you are right to consider this in your plan. Some argue that it doesn't matter once you have PC but I don't want to create a competing mortality risk while I'm working my present problem.  Excercises is always a good idea For many reasons. Make sure to work to keep your mind right, the mind body connection is very strong and you cannot get maximum healing without this In my opinion. This is hard at first as you assimilate your new reality but it can be done. Better diet and exercise took me about a week. Getting my mind back on track took longer But I am there now. Just remember balance, mega vitamins for instance can do more harm than good if not careful.

     

    George

     

  • RobLee
    RobLee Member Posts: 269 Member
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    Grinder said:

    More two cents

    Also I have noticed many men's supplements have Vit K in large doses... Vitamin K?! That's the blood clotting vitamin. There is plenty of natural K in kale, Brussels sprouts, broccoli, etc. Then after you OD on K they put you on blood thinners and tell you to stop eating salads, but never mention Vit K in supplements. So if you are dealing with DVThrombosis or Embolisms or clotting issues, avoid supplements with Vit K.

    And stress... Stress takes energy away from the body's immune response and puts the body in fight or flight mode. It was never meant to last longer than the time it takes to escape danger, yet we live in it 24 hours a day. Then we are sick all the time as our bodies never return to normal including immune response. So, yeah, relaxation is important way of hitting the "reset" button for your immune system. I've yapped a lot about red meat too, but you don't have that problem, fortunately. Good for you, Dennis.

    On supplements and nutrition...

    I finally start delayed adjuvant radiation in a week and have a list of dietary restrictions. No beans or nuts, no carbonated or caffienated drinks (one cup of coffee allowed). And no vociferous veggies. No pickles or peppers like Peter Piper, and no cucumbers.  A few more I don't recall at the moment. The reason is so that my organs don't move around while under the beam. I am a meatasaurus anyway, and treat veggies as a side dish.  My wife sees veggies as the main course. She is one of those "soup and salad and bread sticks" people.  I rarely eat bread other than to hold a few slices of meat and cheese together long enough to get them to my mouth.  So this will be a departure from the norm for a couple months as we will be eating more stuff that I like and less of what she likes.

    Anyway, I read somewhere that for radiation to destroy cancer cells requires "free radicals", so I should not take anti-oxidants during the treatment period.  Normally I take a fairly powerful multi-vitamin (NOT handsfulls of pills like some do).  So for the time that I am on radiation and the following months I bought a bottle of the cheapest vitamins I could find, primarily to be sure I get enough of the fundamental stuff like A, C, D and B-complex, without all the heavy antioxidants like vit-E, selenium and beta-carotiene.  Has anyone else heard of this anti-oxidant versus radiation therapy thing?  My RO never mentioned anything about it.  I figure it won't hurt to slack off the supplements anyway.

    EDIT: My wife informs me that the veggies are CRUCIFEROUS, not vociferous.  I tend to think they are actually both.

     

  • hopeful and optimistic
    hopeful and optimistic Member Posts: 2,339 Member
    Options
    diet

    US TOO International publishes a newsletter each month called "HOT SHEET" There is a lot of excellent information in the publications.  www.ustoo.org

     

    In the July 2017 Hot Sheet there is an article on Page 3 by Dr. Moyad (who is world renowned) "testostenone Blood test and weight loss for prognosis"

    Paraphrasing some of Dr. Moyad's comments:

    Basically a low total testosterone blood level at the time of diagnosis can be one characteristic of a more aggressive tumor. Men with larger weight/waist have lower testosterone. It is important to maintain a healthy weight or lose weight.

    It also appears that men carrying low testosterone while on active surveillance could have a higher risk for prostate cancer progression and the need for treatment.

    ................................

    With respect to free radicals and radiation, I also read that it is not a good idea to take these supplements, and others at this forum have reported this.

     

     

     

  • SubDenis
    SubDenis Member Posts: 130 Member
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    GeorgeG said:

    Research shows that there is a stronger link to diet with PC than some other cancers so you are right to consider this in your plan. Some argue that it doesn't matter once you have PC but I don't want to create a competing mortality risk while I'm working my present problem.  Excercises is always a good idea For many reasons. Make sure to work to keep your mind right, the mind body connection is very strong and you cannot get maximum healing without this In my opinion. This is hard at first as you assimilate your new reality but it can be done. Better diet and exercise took me about a week. Getting my mind back on track took longer But I am there now. Just remember balance, mega vitamins for instance can do more harm than good if not careful.

     

    George

     

    Thanks, George and I agree. I

    Thanks, George and I agree. I am very active and eat well.  As to mind-body, I suggest they are critical and I want to live well as many years as are meant to be.  As to vitamins, I am going to wait and see what Yale recommends. Be well. Denis

  • SubDenis
    SubDenis Member Posts: 130 Member
    Options

    diet

    US TOO International publishes a newsletter each month called "HOT SHEET" There is a lot of excellent information in the publications.  www.ustoo.org

     

    In the July 2017 Hot Sheet there is an article on Page 3 by Dr. Moyad (who is world renowned) "testostenone Blood test and weight loss for prognosis"

    Paraphrasing some of Dr. Moyad's comments:

    Basically a low total testosterone blood level at the time of diagnosis can be one characteristic of a more aggressive tumor. Men with larger weight/waist have lower testosterone. It is important to maintain a healthy weight or lose weight.

    It also appears that men carrying low testosterone while on active surveillance could have a higher risk for prostate cancer progression and the need for treatment.

    ................................

    With respect to free radicals and radiation, I also read that it is not a good idea to take these supplements, and others at this forum have reported this.

     

     

     

    Thanks and I am at a good

    Thanks and I am at a good weight and activity level.  A quality of life is important to me.  Denis

  • Max Former Hodgkins Stage 3
    Max Former Hodgkins Stage 3 Member Posts: 3,813 Member
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    SubDenis said:

    Jim thanks for your

    Jim thanks for your experience, it is in others experience that I get informed.  I plan multiple opinions and know I have time due to my early detection.  Hmm, sitting on nuclear torpedos, being inches away from Posideon missile MRVS, being on a nuclear submarine...   I choose to not worry about how I got it, rather what is the next right thing that I need to do.  

    I do have the philosophy/belief that the better shape I am in the easier it will be for my body and mind to deal with what ever the future holds.  Again thanks, buddy!  

    Subs....

    I had wondered a bit about your moniker, Sub, but did not think to ask.  You might or might not know from my history here that I too was a 'bubble-head,' always fast attack ('long and black, and never come back'; 'SSN = Saturdays, Sundays, and Nights'). I knew nukes who did a deployment, and the remainder of the year were mostly port-and-starboard duty in port. Some of them got to go home around 45 days that entire calendar year.  Like you, I too worked on warheads underway, and was also the ship's Tritium Monitor guy, a task I hated due to potential 'inhalation'.....

    We all wore radiation monitoring devices of course, and the Navy claimed less radiation exposure underway than when walking the beach.  I guess I believe that line.

    After 6 years active, I got an engineering job backfitting Tomahawk VLS missiles on Los Angeles Class fast attacks.  Part of the time visiting boats, the remainder of the time writing maintenance proceedures for the sailors to use.  Six months after starting that job, I was run over by a car and required two years rehab.   My crawling around in submarine days ended with that accident.   I've done many different sorts of work since, but (similiar to you) cannot attribute my two cancers to sub duty, there is just no established link.   Whole-body advance Lymphoma, Stage II prostate, and my chest cavity caved in and a leg nearly ripped off (knee cap found in my pant's leg, for instance). Loss of 1/3 of my lung function from fibrosis, probably induced from one of the chemo drugs. Serious neuropathy (numb hands and feet) also from a chemo drug.  We can only give thanks and move on.   My fundamental attitude is thanksgiving: thanks for the medical tools and drugs that keep us alive, to fight another day, face another battle. 

    My orthopedic surgeon was joking around with me one day, about what a basket case I was (we were close friends by that point).  He was a Marine Corps Reservist, who had done a tour as a trauma surgeon in Viet Nam.   I said, "Man, you were in Nam !  I know you've seen way worse than me !" 

    He got serious, and even teared up slightly, and replied:  "I've seen more fractures in a man before, but never in one who lived."  I never forgot that, or how he said it.

    Bless your memories; it's all good.  I would not trade my experiences for anything. To me, hell would be being an insurance agent, or some functionary behind a desk in a cubical somewhere,

    max

  • SubDenis
    SubDenis Member Posts: 130 Member
    Options

    Subs....

    I had wondered a bit about your moniker, Sub, but did not think to ask.  You might or might not know from my history here that I too was a 'bubble-head,' always fast attack ('long and black, and never come back'; 'SSN = Saturdays, Sundays, and Nights'). I knew nukes who did a deployment, and the remainder of the year were mostly port-and-starboard duty in port. Some of them got to go home around 45 days that entire calendar year.  Like you, I too worked on warheads underway, and was also the ship's Tritium Monitor guy, a task I hated due to potential 'inhalation'.....

    We all wore radiation monitoring devices of course, and the Navy claimed less radiation exposure underway than when walking the beach.  I guess I believe that line.

    After 6 years active, I got an engineering job backfitting Tomahawk VLS missiles on Los Angeles Class fast attacks.  Part of the time visiting boats, the remainder of the time writing maintenance proceedures for the sailors to use.  Six months after starting that job, I was run over by a car and required two years rehab.   My crawling around in submarine days ended with that accident.   I've done many different sorts of work since, but (similiar to you) cannot attribute my two cancers to sub duty, there is just no established link.   Whole-body advance Lymphoma, Stage II prostate, and my chest cavity caved in and a leg nearly ripped off (knee cap found in my pant's leg, for instance). Loss of 1/3 of my lung function from fibrosis, probably induced from one of the chemo drugs. Serious neuropathy (numb hands and feet) also from a chemo drug.  We can only give thanks and move on.   My fundamental attitude is thanksgiving: thanks for the medical tools and drugs that keep us alive, to fight another day, face another battle. 

    My orthopedic surgeon was joking around with me one day, about what a basket case I was (we were close friends by that point).  He was a Marine Corps Reservist, who had done a tour as a trauma surgeon in Viet Nam.   I said, "Man, you were in Nam !  I know you've seen way worse than me !" 

    He got serious, and even teared up slightly, and replied:  "I've seen more fractures in a man before, but never in one who lived."  I never forgot that, or how he said it.

    Bless your memories; it's all good.  I would not trade my experiences for anything. To me, hell would be being an insurance agent, or some functionary behind a desk in a cubical somewhere,

    max

    Max thanks for your story.

    Max thanks for your story. You have traveled quite a road.  We are fortunate people to have had the adventures we had.  Now we have a new adventure.  I am waiting for a call from Yale and waiting sucks!!  Be well.  Denis

  • Max Former Hodgkins Stage 3
    Max Former Hodgkins Stage 3 Member Posts: 3,813 Member
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    RobLee said:

    On supplements and nutrition...

    I finally start delayed adjuvant radiation in a week and have a list of dietary restrictions. No beans or nuts, no carbonated or caffienated drinks (one cup of coffee allowed). And no vociferous veggies. No pickles or peppers like Peter Piper, and no cucumbers.  A few more I don't recall at the moment. The reason is so that my organs don't move around while under the beam. I am a meatasaurus anyway, and treat veggies as a side dish.  My wife sees veggies as the main course. She is one of those "soup and salad and bread sticks" people.  I rarely eat bread other than to hold a few slices of meat and cheese together long enough to get them to my mouth.  So this will be a departure from the norm for a couple months as we will be eating more stuff that I like and less of what she likes.

    Anyway, I read somewhere that for radiation to destroy cancer cells requires "free radicals", so I should not take anti-oxidants during the treatment period.  Normally I take a fairly powerful multi-vitamin (NOT handsfulls of pills like some do).  So for the time that I am on radiation and the following months I bought a bottle of the cheapest vitamins I could find, primarily to be sure I get enough of the fundamental stuff like A, C, D and B-complex, without all the heavy antioxidants like vit-E, selenium and beta-carotiene.  Has anyone else heard of this anti-oxidant versus radiation therapy thing?  My RO never mentioned anything about it.  I figure it won't hurt to slack off the supplements anyway.

    EDIT: My wife informs me that the veggies are CRUCIFEROUS, not vociferous.  I tend to think they are actually both.

     

    Antioxidants

    Rob,

    There is a long-running debate at Lymphoma regarding use of anti-oxidants while on chemo.   The Journal articles disagree a bit, and as best I can gather, no concensus. None shows a STRONG linkage effecting efficacy, however.  

    I asked my medical oncologist about my habit of drinking huge amounts of green tea (a major anti-oxidant source), and he replied, "Drink what you like, you need hydration."  He is Ivy-trained, and has 5 Board Certifications, among which are medical oncology, hematology, internal medicine, and two others.  I have read many times about people being told to eat whatever they would eat when on chemo, which frequently induces anorexia.  Better to get protein and calories from somewhere than to become so weak that you die is the reasoning.  Worry about 'fitness' later.  I had a dear friend in hospice 3 years ago, near the end.  Dying from PCa, after a 13 year fight.  We was semi-conscious, hadn't eaten in over a week (except fluids via IVs). Asked for a milk shake.  His daughter, an RN, objected, but allowed us to get him one.  She said, "Sugar will feed the cancer !"  Definitely the cruelist, stupidest comment I ever heard in my life.  He died the next day, but enjoyed the shake.  It all requires perspective.

    Most medical oncologist recommend ending supplements when beginning chemo, but I am uncertain as regards radiation.  Perhaps this helps a little,

    max

     

  • Grinder
    Grinder Member Posts: 487 Member
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    Subs....

    I had wondered a bit about your moniker, Sub, but did not think to ask.  You might or might not know from my history here that I too was a 'bubble-head,' always fast attack ('long and black, and never come back'; 'SSN = Saturdays, Sundays, and Nights'). I knew nukes who did a deployment, and the remainder of the year were mostly port-and-starboard duty in port. Some of them got to go home around 45 days that entire calendar year.  Like you, I too worked on warheads underway, and was also the ship's Tritium Monitor guy, a task I hated due to potential 'inhalation'.....

    We all wore radiation monitoring devices of course, and the Navy claimed less radiation exposure underway than when walking the beach.  I guess I believe that line.

    After 6 years active, I got an engineering job backfitting Tomahawk VLS missiles on Los Angeles Class fast attacks.  Part of the time visiting boats, the remainder of the time writing maintenance proceedures for the sailors to use.  Six months after starting that job, I was run over by a car and required two years rehab.   My crawling around in submarine days ended with that accident.   I've done many different sorts of work since, but (similiar to you) cannot attribute my two cancers to sub duty, there is just no established link.   Whole-body advance Lymphoma, Stage II prostate, and my chest cavity caved in and a leg nearly ripped off (knee cap found in my pant's leg, for instance). Loss of 1/3 of my lung function from fibrosis, probably induced from one of the chemo drugs. Serious neuropathy (numb hands and feet) also from a chemo drug.  We can only give thanks and move on.   My fundamental attitude is thanksgiving: thanks for the medical tools and drugs that keep us alive, to fight another day, face another battle. 

    My orthopedic surgeon was joking around with me one day, about what a basket case I was (we were close friends by that point).  He was a Marine Corps Reservist, who had done a tour as a trauma surgeon in Viet Nam.   I said, "Man, you were in Nam !  I know you've seen way worse than me !" 

    He got serious, and even teared up slightly, and replied:  "I've seen more fractures in a man before, but never in one who lived."  I never forgot that, or how he said it.

    Bless your memories; it's all good.  I would not trade my experiences for anything. To me, hell would be being an insurance agent, or some functionary behind a desk in a cubical somewhere,

    max

    Amen

    ".  We can only give thanks and move on.   My fundamental attitude is thanksgiving: thanks for the medical tools and drugs that keep us alive, to fight another day, face another battle. "

    Amen, brother. Respect.

    Right now in Venezuela, you can't get common remedies, much less complicated procedures. We have a lot to be grateful for.