Prognosis

Old Salt said:

Off topic

I started a new topic on problems associated with the software.

Apologies to Jullo!

 

Great - such a discussion is much needed at CSN Dicussion Boards.

max

Julia (beautiful name)

I read with interest your cross discussion with Max and Hopeful on supplements, and I think that even if the recommendations from the naturopath are supported with references and seem to be good, you should follow the oncologist's protocol, exactly as you say; to avoid any interaction of drugs. Supplements or certain foods can go both ways; the good path or the worse. One needs to be careful and take them under vigilance along the prime treatment scheduling. PCa medical oncologists are trained in the interchange of drugs/supplements, their reaction and include in the protocol a schedule thinking in future consequences and care.
Your partner can inquire about the supplements and request for added tests which I think it wouldn't be against the oncologist's policy. He can even do the tests himself, as these wouldn't put into jeopardy the treatment. But are they all really necessary?

Regarding holistic therapies you describe above, you do understand that cancer patients are constantly approached by people recommending sort of cures, particularly to those in very advanced stage (not Tom situation yet). We are high proponents for their "bread-and-butter" machine. Supplements aiming the cancer "department" belong to a business constantly flourishing and growing. In any case this is not new, and if some of the claimed stuff managed cure it would be known worldwide, not kept as a secret.

Surely some guys believe in holistic ways of therapy and try most of the stuff. Nobody is against it, but only few recommend it. I recall back in 2001 when I discussed with a famous Chinese oncologist (I was experiencing recurrence) about the infamous PC-SPES. It was a marvel pill for PCa patients at the time but soon it was found to incorporate in its contents hormonal substances (drugs). A fake pill. The supplier closed the business and declared bankruptcy but the drug changed name and is still sold on the supplements market. You can read on the matter in this National Cancer Institute link;

https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/cam/hp/pc-spes-pdq

I guess you are having trouble in being heard by your partner and his children. You need to find a away to seat down and communicate all together. His degradation is evident but that is what chemo does. Later, after the treatment he recovers to a normalcy status (not 100% as previous). However, if vital signs become at risk while in treatment, he can stop the therapy in the middle. Be careful with any anemia symptom.

Best wishes and peace of mind.

VG

A note on posting; I think you should continue the thread posting at the end not inbetween. It is a better way for those following your story and providing you with important opinions.

jullo234 said:

The thought of the chemo as

The thought of the chemo as being cumalative

is depressing. I think i had read that , he has been such an active

man and full of so much zest for life I hate to see this 

suck the life force out of him . I had wanted him to follow the regimen 

of a naturopath oncologist who offered a supplement and diet regime. I have known two

other people who have down chemo and supplements with great success 

He chose not to go this route as the dr frowned upon it. It is not my decisi to 

make . I felt like I had to let go of trying to give info as it just seems to cause him 

stress ....

thanks for writing it means a lot to have people who are informed and care .

I say again I feel, and am sorry for what you are going through.  Ye I must ask, As I have it too, and in a Bad way. You said you knew of two with success , who endured the procedure , I have to ask " how many do you know that it didn't work for ? " I am 63 , and it is forcing me to retire early ... my PSa was 16.96 in Sept 2016 and was 5.98 in May of 2015 .. So I ask in a real way .. 2 out of how many ?  again sorry for your situation

Julia,

This is a great post and great update. You seem more composed. I hope things go smooth with Tom till the end.
The PSA is now half from the 41 you told us in July. This decrease of the PSA (now 20 ng/ml) means that the cancer is hormone dependent. The shot stopped the production of testosterone so that the cancer became indolent producing lesser serum. The chemo will kill the cells destroying their DNA. It takes longer to verify the effect but both treatments will drive that PSA to much lower levels.

Cancerous cells that for whatever reason are not hormonal dependent do not receive the same blow. Patients see improvements latter from the action of the chemo. Tom is fortunate and may expect longer periods of control.

Several guys under VA (similar status of Tom) have posted here before regarding military claims. The following link is from the US Department of Veterans Affairs in regards to Prostate Cancer and Agent Orange. You may read for details;

http://www.publichealth.va.gov/exposures/agentorange/conditions/prostate_cancer.asp

Best wishes for continuing good results.

VG

jullo234 said:

VG,

VG,

I didnt realize I wasnt composed in previous posts :~) ! I still believe in the Naturopathic route but I have let go of pursuing that course as it is not Toms wish. 

The VA  took so long to take any kind of action. I have a friend who had his prosate out when cancer was detected at4.2 PSA level! ( not in the VA system)He says he has had great success with the robotic surgery. If his PSA level was 11 or 12 in July 2015 I dont believe they should have waited until May 2016 to do a bioposy. Some may say theres no point dwelling in the past but I believe that someone dropped the ball. I think he is going to have three more rounds of chemo but waiting to see what the bone scan shows in Nov. If Im to understand you correctly you re sayingg that for now the cancer is "controlled." I didnt really understand what you meant when you said " patients see improvements later from the action of the chemo." Does that mean the hormone treatment is effectively keeping it under control and later the chemo will do the same? One day at a time...

 

 

My suggestion is to youtube Hydrogen Peroxide for cancer.  This will not get any support on this board.  For what it is worth,  I, too, was diagnosed with "multiple, widespread matastic disease."  Psa was 300.  that was 41 months ago, so some do survive. I used naturopathic treatment, orchiectomy, and mostly spritual work.  I did not know about hydrogen peroxide at that time.  There is always hope.  My case was supposed to be hopeless as well.  Good Luck.  

Love, Swami Rakendra

Julia,

Nobody has told you to give up with the "naturopathic route". You follow what you believe. My reference was in regards to your confusion and many inquires posted when confronting the situation. You are more experienced now, gained acknowledge on the facts and may feel better as the treatment advances and produces results.

Supplements are very useful to balance when something is lacking and we cannot get it quickly from foods. Naturopathic medications to treat prostate cancer are not as effective as those in today's clinical use. They may "brush" the wound but do not treat the problem. I have investigated since 2001 about the benefits from the "famous" products and till today none ever found cure or gain better benefits than those "adapted" from clinical trials and later approved for use by the medical community. In fact many of those products recommended by naturopathic experts are substances included in the compounds of the traditional medicines but sold at higher prices (much more expensive).

To understand how a drug works in a treatment for prostate cancer, one must understand the chemistry involved and the "techniques" of the therapy. Hormonal treatment (HT) is sort of a combine series of manipulations in our endocrine system and "manufacturing" of androgens. It does not attack cancerous cells directly. PCa survives on androgens so that the HT technique is to deprive the cancer from getting the stuff/androgens. Orchiectomy is the first "method" in use to stop production of testosterone (lowering the volume of androgens in circulation). The shot Tom is taking is working at the pituitary to stop this from sending down to the testis "orders" of testosterone production. The stoppage causes hypogonadism (chemical castration) so that PCa cells without "food" go indolent.

Testosterone represents about 90% of the androgens in circulation in the body. The rest of the androgens are produced in the adrenal glands and thyroid. One could dissect them too but depriving other androgen dependent systems in the body would lead to grave consequences. Balance is needed. Physicians therefore try blocking these "extra" androgens via other manipulations done at different levels. For instance, antiandrogen medications (many of the products in naturopathic selves) manage to "get stacked/plugged" in cell's mouths/androgen receptors (AR) prohibiting the cancer from getting the real stuff. Still some other blockers work in the systems in charge of metabolizing the cholesterol into androgens, limiting these to be put in circulation.

In that regard, androgen dependent PCa can be controlled longer by the several levels of blockades, before it becomes refractory. There are many HT drugs in the so called "second-line" HT that can take the place of those not working effectively. The mechanism allows long periods of control. I am hopeful that HT allows me 20 years before starting chemo.

Chemo therapy works differently. This attacks the chemistry in cells' DNA (similarly to RT), therefore, it causes apoptosis during the cells life cycle that could last six months to complete. The biochemical event lead to characteristic cell changes and its death. Doubling does not occur. However, chemo works indiscriminately attacking other types of cells too. Some of these belong in the scope of the therapy (such as those metabolizing cholesterol to produce androgens), which action assures a bigger blow to the cancer and more effective treatment outcome.

The problem with chemo is that it also "kills" cells that should not be part of the treatment. The chemo medication is therefore studied and dosed to cause the lesser effects to other cells. This fact lowers the efficacy of the chemo when killing prostate cancer. It turns the drugs palliative, other wise these would kill whole our living blocks and we would die.

The double blow (HT plus Chemo) will prolong life but it will cause nasty side effects. Some patients experience mild situations. Our "homework" is to find ways for controlling the side effects via particular diets, change in life attics, fitness programs and supplements that do not interact with the medications of the therapy. Antioxidants are Bad in chemo therapies as it may try to protect/revive cancerous cells that should die. Much effort should be exercised in the decision on preventive treatments to counter the side effects and possible illnesses arising from the prime treatment. Heart problems, bone loss, diabetes, etc, are at high risk for occurrence. The oncologist must be a specialist in drugs administration and very knowledgeable in their limitations and interaction. Nothing should be administered that would prohibit or affect a future treatment for expected occurrences. For instance, anemia is dangerous and kills many PCa patients receiving powerful medication. The immune shot of Tom's protocol may be to avoid such case. Lipids and other particular tests should be planned in the overall care.

The senior survivor Rakendra above is a model to follow in the fight against PCa. He is always positive and confronts the problem as a reason of etre. His Karma. He has engaged in practices that many here would be against. He proved that steroids can be taken carefully to improve the quality of life in spite of possible being igniting the indolent cancer. He is trying now Hydrogen Peroxide which I see it as a sort of "cleaning" product. It is used in the prevention of tooth decay and as a home remedy. I doubt its benefits in the treatment of PCa. This you tube link conforms my thoughts on the matter;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb0kFCijvg8

Best wishes,

VGama

Julia,

Antioxidants are beneficial to all cells including the cancerous ones. We need to maintain a "poisonous environment" to those PCa cells suffering the blow of the chemo but not yet dead. Any action that could "revive" or "revitalize" these while on their life cycle will jeopardy in part the benefit of the chemo. Antioxidants are stopped while on treatment and resumed later. Maybe his oncologist will not comment on this.

Chicken soup is good. Lol

Best

VG

jullo234 said:

VGama ,

VGama ,

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain what I know little about. I wonder if there are questions I should be asking the doctor next week such as is he doing tests to prevent anemia from occurring..  We will find out soon if he will have four rounds of chemo or six. His appeptite has waned and the only food he seems to like is chicken soup. So I guess chicken soup it will be. He didn't have extra weight on him to begin with so more weight loss needs to be avoided.

I wonder what impact these drugs are having on his heart . He had a heart attack in his late 30's and is on a few heart medications. I think I will query with the Dr about that .For example do the oncologiat and cardiologist converse about his case? The naturopath oncologist said the heart medications he is on are a dangerous combination to be taking with the HT and chemo.  I'm sure exactly why but I could get the information.

I will read through your post again in order to better understand it.  When you said no antioxidants , specifically what do you mean by this ? So very thoughtful of you to take such time in helping those tha are less informed.

Thankyou,

Julia

 

 

 

Jullo,

A few chemo drugs potentially have cardiac side-effects. The most famous of these is Adriamycin (also known as Doxorubicin; Rubex), which is not given against PCa, that I have ever heard of at least.  Taxotere (the main PCa chemo) does not have heart damage as a known or routine side-effect.

ALL medical oncologists I've ever met or read about are also board certified in internal medicine, and these things are reviewed and flagged for interactions, but DO ASK.  The link to Taxotere in the post below gives as a warning to not take Herbal Supplements, or at least to clear them with the oncologst.

ALL chemos stress the body nonetheless.  Most, if not all, clinics planning to administer chemo test the patient for cardiac issues, at least an EKG or more, to determne if the patient is well enough to withstand chemo. Not every person is well enough. The Institute where I received care required that every patient undergo a baseline EKG and baseline Lung function test.

max