UK doctors prescribing....placebo's

for a particular condition, like probiotics for digestive issues, is not the same as giving a sugar pill (although even then, if you read the article I linked, there can be actual physiological change as a result of the placebo).   But anyway...I'm not sure why this article is conflating the two.  "Placebo" is simply not the same as "treatment with no established efficacy" (given the standards required to establish efficacy in a scientifically acceptable fashion, I think docs probably do this on a fairly regular basis).  I find this more confusing than anything.  

And that "melting snowball" story?  I'm sure you know, Tony, that not being able to find proof that something is an urban legend is not the same as saying that the story is true.  Especially when the story doesn't make a ton of sense.

I'm in agreement with Steve on this one.

manwithnoname said:

Well.

Because that "melting snowball" story happened so long ago, I assume the Doctor and nurses involved are no longer here, but Vittorio Micheli apparently is still alive and his is the most documented 'unbelievable' story of 'placebo'  so if his story is possible why not the other?

But I will investigate further. I have to say though I know that story from an old book (pre-internet) and Im sure there is a checkable source.

Did anyone actually read the original study?

And not just the UK.

"In a 1974 Scientific American article entitled the “Ethics of Giving Placebos,” the authors stated that “35-45 percent of all prescriptions are for substances that are incapable of having an effect on the condition for which they are prescribed.” Dr. Halstead Holman of Stanford University has noted that “three of four of the most commonly prescribed drugs treat no specific illness.”

There are studies done in Europe too, I imagine it's a global phenomenon where doctor's would rather give something than nothing and not let their patients down.

you read my study, Tony, and I'll read yours!  That New Scientist article (how do you make a link clickable, anyway?) shows that the placebo effect may lead to actual, physiological results, so I'm not saying that the "snowball" story is impossible, but I would want to see some evidence,  like scans, doctor reports, etc.  The world of cancer is absolutely rife with fakers, including people who convince their own family members they have cancer, so I'm very suspicious of this sort of thing.   I don't know the Micheli story, will take a look.  There have been cases of spontaneous remission documented, so that can happen, although I believe it's very rare.  AA

PS I'm sure docs do give placebo, especially if the study defined "placebo" as things "not proven to have an effect"...not arguing with you at all on that one.  But like I said in my previous comment, I don't think those things are the same at all, and I don't feel they should be lumped together.  Sugar pill does not equal probiotics, imo.

manwithnoname said:

I did read yours

I read EVERYTHING BTW sub to new scientist = epic win! when I get home (we are doing treatment) will look for the source of "snowballs" the Micheli story is even more strange, one of the few actual confirmed 'miracles' by the Catholic church.

Now we arent arguing about anything, sugar pill does NOT equal probiotic or Vit D3, the study lumped them together not me. (but if you read the study.....)

For the record I think GP's giving stuff they think might help is great!  Better than giving nothing and telling the person nothing to be done.

Sponteneous remission (not even placebo) is very rare and usually preceded by a fever. Been looking at fever therapy with Coley toxin for a couple of years.

*highlight* then click on *chain* paste URL click *insert*, done.

 

Also the guy who was treated died of cancer, the FDA looked at the treatment and found it was worthless and charged the inventor with fraud, hard to see the 'angle' on this one except a potent placebo effect.

Just an FYI.... In the US... Trials and studies have been FDA regulated since the 80's. As have the rx's that are given out.. it is highly unlikely at least here in the US that this would ever happen. It is unethical and in this highly litigous society drs would be more likely to order more tests and get a definitive diagnosis before ever giving an rx for something that wouldn't treat what you got..

This is the last I am checking this post.. You are sensationalizing a headline that is just trying to scare people.. and it is a shame people will follow this and think you are on to something when all you are doing is spreading fear.... Find something postive to post please..  time to move on...

manwithnoname said:

I did read yours

I read EVERYTHING BTW sub to new scientist = epic win! when I get home (we are doing treatment) will look for the source of "snowballs" the Micheli story is even more strange, one of the few actual confirmed 'miracles' by the Catholic church.

Now we arent arguing about anything, sugar pill does NOT equal probiotic or Vit D3, the study lumped them together not me. (but if you read the study.....)

For the record I think GP's giving stuff they think might help is great!  Better than giving nothing and telling the person nothing to be done.

Sponteneous remission (not even placebo) is very rare and usually preceded by a fever. Been looking at fever therapy with Coley toxin for a couple of years.

*highlight* then click on *chain* paste URL click *insert*, done.

 

Also the guy who was treated died of cancer, the FDA looked at the treatment and found it was worthless and charged the inventor with fraud, hard to see the 'angle' on this one except a potent placebo effect.

there is a guy on the Colon Club forum (user lohidoc) who is doing a version of this.  Apparently very hush-hush and under the table, although he has found a doc in the States (i think) who will do it.  He recently posted his scan results and he has shown marked improvement (and he had a pretty major tumor load to begin with).  You might want to check out his story, see what you think.  He has a blog as well, where you could message him if you wanted to get more details.  Personally, I think there is something to the Coley's toxins concept, although it seems difficult to replicate safely.  Of course, not much is safe when it comes to cancer tx.

And just for the record, I did read the study, and was arguing against the study's mixing of the two terms...I could tell that you weren't making that point.  

And I would def recommend shelling out the big bucks for the New Scientist.  It's an awesome source for all things science-related, even for right-brain dummy history majors like me.  

manwithnoname said:

Thanks Ann

Will def. check him out,  I also found a clinic in the US which would do it but they wouldn't take kids, our Prof. does use it,  when he gets back into the country we will discuss it, your right it does have risks which is one reason Im not pushing it too hard, but we are getting nervous, scan time soon,  you know how it is...

Tony, have you by any chance found a source for coley's? Virtually all docs and clinics that used to offer it sourced it from mbvax.com, but they stopped production as were shut down for not having appropriate pharma grade manufacturing facilities.