Chemo boosts the immune system

manwithnoname
manwithnoname Member Posts: 402
in Colorectal Cancer #1
Yes you read it right, 100mg cyclophosphamide daily in 2 X 50mg doses, one week on one week off.

Depletes T-reg, stimulates NK cells.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16960692

MTD of cyclophosphamide = 3500mg daily (in children)

Comments

  • John23
    John23 Member Posts: 2,122 Member
    #2
    mwnn -


    Re:
    "Therefore, metronomic regimen of cyclophosphamide does not only
    affect tumor angiogenesis but also strongly curtails
    immunosuppressive regulatory T cells    , favoring a better control
    of tumor progression."
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16960692

    Isn't the answer -no-, chemo does not strengthen the immune system,
    it simply stifles the power of the "T regulator" cells?

    It should be noted that:
    "T cells are a type of white blood cells called lymphocytes. They
    make up part of the immune system. T cells help the body fight
    diseases or harmful substances."
    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003516.htm

    And :
    "Regulators of the Immune System:
    Regulatory T cells (Tregs) are critical to the maintenance of
    immune cell homeostasis as evidenced by the catastrophic
    consequences of genetic or physical ablation of the Treg
    population. Specifically, Treg cells maintain order in the immune
    system by enforcing a dominant negative regulation on other
    immune cells. Broadly classified into natural or adaptive
    (induced) Tregs; natural Tregs are CD4+CD25+ T-cells which
    develop, and emigrate from the thymus to perform their key role
    in immune homeostasis. Adaptive Tregs are non-regulatory CD4+
    T-cells which acquire CD25 (IL-2R alpha) expression outside of
    the thymus, and are typically induced by inflammation and disease
    processes, such as autoimmunity and cancer.

    Precise understanding of the immunosuppressive mechanism of T
    regulatory cells remains elusive, although there is increasing
    evidence that Tregs manifest their function through a myriad of
    mechanisms that include the secretion of immunosuppressive
    soluble factors such as IL-9, IL-10 and TGF beta, cell contact
    mediated regulation via the high affinity TCR and other
    costimulatory molecules such as CTLA-4, GITR, and cytolytic
    activity. Understanding the mechanisms by which Treg cells exert
    their influence is an area of intense research with broad
    implications for the development of therapeutic strategies for
    many disease processes including cancer, diabetes, and Immune
    mediated diseases."
    http://www.ebioscience.com/knowledge-center/cell-type/t-regulatory-cells.htm

    Using chemicals to stifle T cells may help chemicals kill cancer tumors
    (and other good cells along with it), but it does nothing to "strengthen the
    immune system"; it actually does the opposite, by interfering with
    the immune system.

    In my opinion, stifling any part of the immune system can lead
    to problems of a magnitude that might not be possible to resolve.


    Better health to all,

    John
  • manwithnoname
    manwithnoname Member Posts: 402
    #3
    John23 said:

    mwnn -


    Re:
    "Therefore, metronomic regimen of cyclophosphamide does not only
    affect tumor angiogenesis but also strongly curtails
    immunosuppressive regulatory T cells    , favoring a better control
    of tumor progression."
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16960692

    Isn't the answer -no-, chemo does not strengthen the immune system,
    it simply stifles the power of the "T regulator" cells?

    It should be noted that:
    "T cells are a type of white blood cells called lymphocytes. They
    make up part of the immune system. T cells help the body fight
    diseases or harmful substances."
    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003516.htm

    And :
    "Regulators of the Immune System:
    Regulatory T cells (Tregs) are critical to the maintenance of
    immune cell homeostasis as evidenced by the catastrophic
    consequences of genetic or physical ablation of the Treg
    population. Specifically, Treg cells maintain order in the immune
    system by enforcing a dominant negative regulation on other
    immune cells. Broadly classified into natural or adaptive
    (induced) Tregs; natural Tregs are CD4+CD25+ T-cells which
    develop, and emigrate from the thymus to perform their key role
    in immune homeostasis. Adaptive Tregs are non-regulatory CD4+
    T-cells which acquire CD25 (IL-2R alpha) expression outside of
    the thymus, and are typically induced by inflammation and disease
    processes, such as autoimmunity and cancer.

    Precise understanding of the immunosuppressive mechanism of T
    regulatory cells remains elusive, although there is increasing
    evidence that Tregs manifest their function through a myriad of
    mechanisms that include the secretion of immunosuppressive
    soluble factors such as IL-9, IL-10 and TGF beta, cell contact
    mediated regulation via the high affinity TCR and other
    costimulatory molecules such as CTLA-4, GITR, and cytolytic
    activity. Understanding the mechanisms by which Treg cells exert
    their influence is an area of intense research with broad
    implications for the development of therapeutic strategies for
    many disease processes including cancer, diabetes, and Immune
    mediated diseases."
    http://www.ebioscience.com/knowledge-center/cell-type/t-regulatory-cells.htm

    Using chemicals to stifle T cells may help chemicals kill cancer tumors
    (and other good cells along with it), but it does nothing to "strengthen the
    immune system"; it actually does the opposite, by interfering with
    the immune system.

    In my opinion, stifling any part of the immune system can lead
    to problems of a magnitude that might not be possible to resolve.


    Better health to all,

    John

    Boosts not 'strengthen'
    "Surprisingly, this metronomic CTX regimen does not inhibit but on the contrary dramatically enhances T and NK cell functions through its suppressive effect on Treg number and function." I have the full article.

    Actually it seems depleting T-reg helps the invisible tumour become visible, so maybe, like AIDS, the immune system needs corrected.

    check this one out; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2330026/pdf/1479-5876-6-12.pdf

    Take note of patient 14.

    BTW it's all chemicals John, we are electro/chemical beings.
  • ron50
    ron50 Member Posts: 1,723 Member
    #4
    manwithnoname said:

    Boosts not 'strengthen'
    "Surprisingly, this metronomic CTX regimen does not inhibit but on the contrary dramatically enhances T and NK cell functions through its suppressive effect on Treg number and function." I have the full article.

    Actually it seems depleting T-reg helps the invisible tumour become visible, so maybe, like AIDS, the immune system needs corrected.

    check this one out; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2330026/pdf/1479-5876-6-12.pdf

    Take note of patient 14.

    BTW it's all chemicals John, we are electro/chemical beings.

    Hmmmmm
    You have not convinced me. Cyclophosphamide,cyclosporin and imuran have been hanging over my head for some time. My nephrologist wants to put me on cycclosporin for protein-urea of the kidneys. Because My protein loss will not stay consistently above 3 gramms a day technically he is not allowed to prescribe it. On the other hand he can give me as much cyclophosphamide as he wants. He described the drug as the nuclear waste of the pharmacy world. Cheap ,very nasty,very effective but with more side effects than you can list. These drugs are some of the front line in use for organ transplants. They are used to fight immuno-rejection. I am not going on any of these drugs,a line has to be drawn in the sand at some point. I would rather go slowly with liver failure than to have any of these drugs take out an organ ,throw up some weird and rare form of ca of some equally nasty condition. I recently had my yearly suncancer check. My suncheck doc asked me how I was going with my kidneys ,he has had to remove some nasty micro-nodular basal cell from my face that he believes were brought on by methotrexate use. He told me of one of his patients,a long term heart transplant survivor. He said that when this guy takes off his shirt he looks like frankenstein he has had so many squamous and basal cell sun cancers removed. One of the very reasons I am not willing to take these drugs is that I have done my time with cancer ,I am not going to help it have another shot at me. I have auto immune disease of an undiagnosed nature. Perhaps my own rampant immune system not only attacks a lot of good stuff ,perhaps it is one of the reasons I have remained ca free for nearly fifteen years..... Ron.
  • John23
    John23 Member Posts: 2,122 Member
    #5
    manwithnoname said:

    Boosts not 'strengthen'
    "Surprisingly, this metronomic CTX regimen does not inhibit but on the contrary dramatically enhances T and NK cell functions through its suppressive effect on Treg number and function." I have the full article.

    Actually it seems depleting T-reg helps the invisible tumour become visible, so maybe, like AIDS, the immune system needs corrected.

    check this one out; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2330026/pdf/1479-5876-6-12.pdf

    Take note of patient 14.

    BTW it's all chemicals John, we are electro/chemical beings.

    Whew....

    That's a lot of reading, but one needn't have to go beyond the
    opening to decide between "restrict or boost":

    "Background:
    Cognate immunity against neoplastic cells depends on a balance between effector T cells
    and regulatory T (Treg) cells. Treg cells prevent immune attack against normal and neoplastic cells by
    directly suppressing the activation of effector CD4+ and CD8+ T cells. We postulated that a recombinant
    interleukin 2/diphtheria toxin conjugate (DAB/IL2; Denileukin Diftitox; Ontak) may serve as a useful
    strategy to deplete Treg cells and break tolerance against neoplastic tumors in humans."

    Using chemicals to interfere with the working of our immune system
    does not solve a problem - not for "long term", anyway.

    They are attempting to regulate and limit the normal controls and
    processes of our immune system. Stifling the T-reg cells that are there
    to keep T cells from attacking what it shouldn't be attacking, does not
    sound like the best of interests (to me).

    Of course, this may be a great break-through, and be a major step
    towards curing cancer..... But I think they said the same thing about
    Methotrexate and it's use in both Arthritis and cancer....

    It's just my idle observation, but it appears (to me), that when they
    can't resolve the real problem, they attempt to "adjust" the immune
    system instead, by stifling it in one way or the other.

    Stifling the immune system to cure a problem has never worked before.
    The cash can roll in for this "trial" (Trial registration: NCT00299689 -Clinical Trials.gov Identifier),
    and although I wish it well, I seriously doubt the re-uptake of failed direction
    will do much of anything, but keep the industry's idle biologists on the payroll.

    That is my opinion, anyway... and usually not worth much around here.

    ("I don't think the glass is half-full, or half-empty, I think the water's polluted!")


    Best wishes for you,

    John
  • manwithnoname
    manwithnoname Member Posts: 402
    #6
    John23 said:

    Whew....

    That's a lot of reading, but one needn't have to go beyond the
    opening to decide between "restrict or boost":

    "Background:
    Cognate immunity against neoplastic cells depends on a balance between effector T cells
    and regulatory T (Treg) cells. Treg cells prevent immune attack against normal and neoplastic cells by
    directly suppressing the activation of effector CD4+ and CD8+ T cells. We postulated that a recombinant
    interleukin 2/diphtheria toxin conjugate (DAB/IL2; Denileukin Diftitox; Ontak) may serve as a useful
    strategy to deplete Treg cells and break tolerance against neoplastic tumors in humans."

    Using chemicals to interfere with the working of our immune system
    does not solve a problem - not for "long term", anyway.

    They are attempting to regulate and limit the normal controls and
    processes of our immune system. Stifling the T-reg cells that are there
    to keep T cells from attacking what it shouldn't be attacking, does not
    sound like the best of interests (to me).

    Of course, this may be a great break-through, and be a major step
    towards curing cancer..... But I think they said the same thing about
    Methotrexate and it's use in both Arthritis and cancer....

    It's just my idle observation, but it appears (to me), that when they
    can't resolve the real problem, they attempt to "adjust" the immune
    system instead, by stifling it in one way or the other.

    Stifling the immune system to cure a problem has never worked before.
    The cash can roll in for this "trial" (Trial registration: NCT00299689 -Clinical Trials.gov Identifier),
    and although I wish it well, I seriously doubt the re-uptake of failed direction
    will do much of anything, but keep the industry's idle biologists on the payroll.

    That is my opinion, anyway... and usually not worth much around here.

    ("I don't think the glass is half-full, or half-empty, I think the water's polluted!")


    Best wishes for you,

    John

    I think
    Patient 14 was well happy with his result, Im sure.

    Maybe TCM has been doing this for millennia without actually realising it; www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/16/10/8343/pdf

    Yup, more reading...;-) note the synergy.


    "Altogether, our data indicate that CTX, on one hand, induces an immunogenic apoptosis within the tumor mass that acts as priming event for the induction of antitumor immunity through the release of large amounts of antigenic material and soluble factors recruiting and activating DC into the tumor bed, and, on the other hand, RESETS the host immune system, creating an excellent stage for homeostatic expansion of DC pools."
  • manwithnoname
    manwithnoname Member Posts: 402
    #7
    ron50 said:

    Hmmmmm
    You have not convinced me. Cyclophosphamide,cyclosporin and imuran have been hanging over my head for some time. My nephrologist wants to put me on cycclosporin for protein-urea of the kidneys. Because My protein loss will not stay consistently above 3 gramms a day technically he is not allowed to prescribe it. On the other hand he can give me as much cyclophosphamide as he wants. He described the drug as the nuclear waste of the pharmacy world. Cheap ,very nasty,very effective but with more side effects than you can list. These drugs are some of the front line in use for organ transplants. They are used to fight immuno-rejection. I am not going on any of these drugs,a line has to be drawn in the sand at some point. I would rather go slowly with liver failure than to have any of these drugs take out an organ ,throw up some weird and rare form of ca of some equally nasty condition. I recently had my yearly suncancer check. My suncheck doc asked me how I was going with my kidneys ,he has had to remove some nasty micro-nodular basal cell from my face that he believes were brought on by methotrexate use. He told me of one of his patients,a long term heart transplant survivor. He said that when this guy takes off his shirt he looks like frankenstein he has had so many squamous and basal cell sun cancers removed. One of the very reasons I am not willing to take these drugs is that I have done my time with cancer ,I am not going to help it have another shot at me. I have auto immune disease of an undiagnosed nature. Perhaps my own rampant immune system not only attacks a lot of good stuff ,perhaps it is one of the reasons I have remained ca free for nearly fifteen years..... Ron.

    Hi Ron
    Not trying to convince anyone, we are all adults.
    I found this was really counterintuitive and worth checking.

    All drugs have side effects, but this metronomic regime is 70 x less than MTD.

    Congrats on 15 clean years...and I'm convinced it is your immune system keeping you clean.

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