Death for what you Believe

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Comments

  • mariam_11_09
    mariam_11_09 Member Posts: 691 Member
    #42
    laurettas said:

    Crusades
    So, Blake, if you had relatives in another country who were being brutalized and begged you to come and help them, you would not do it if you had the power?

    That is exactly what happened in the Crusades. The Middle East had been Christian for centuries, not by force, but by conversion. Then Mohammad decided he was a big shot and formed this group that decided they were going to take over the world by force. If your faith is important to you, being allowed to express it will be something you strive to maintain. I don't think that self-defense is wrong and that is what the Crusades were about. Yes, some who went were just in it for the fighting and the looting but many were not. Louis IX was not. He went there to protect those who were being brutalized.

    Spend a little time researching the life of Christians in predominantly Muslim countries now. It is not pretty. In Saudi Arabia one cannot have any Christian jewelry let alone a church building--while in this country it is being debated if a mosque can be built on the site that some Muslims destroyed in the first place.

    I think it is naive to believe that secular historians do not have a bias. Look at the history of the US. I learned that the Mayflower was the big European arrival in this country. It was only recently that I learned that Catholic missionaries had been in this country decades before and had started communities, etc. How much do you read about the persecution of Catholics in this country for centuries--the Irish in particular? I knew about Indians, blacks, Chinese, but had never heard about what was done to the Irish and other Catholics. The history of the Crusades and the Inquisition are another area. The numbers were so inflated and the reason behind them so obscured that one would never know the actual situation. I already mentioned the distortions about WWII that secular historians are attempting to distort concerning the Pope of the time. If you are going to read one biased explanation, you may as well read another from the other side.

    One last thing, if you don't think a queen has power with her husband, you have missed some interesting history. Many times it has been the "little woman" in the corner who has influenced the decisions of very powerful rulers!

    Laurettas, can you please

    Laurettas, can you please stick to the facts when it concerns other religions, for example

    " Then Mohammad decided he was a big shot and formed this group that decided they were going to take over the world by force"

    is not factual but rather disrespectful. I have not encountered anyone on this board that has said something derogatory about Jesus, God and the Virgin Mary. There may have been comments about Catholicism, Christianity, Islam or other religions in general or things that people who practice religion have done, questions about the origin of the bible but it has stopped there. I won't deny the so called 'Jihads' or 'Suicide' bombings done in the name of Islam but the statement you made was not at all fair.
  • laurettas
    laurettas Member Posts: 372
    #43
    mariam_11_09 said:

    Laurettas, can you please

    Laurettas, can you please stick to the facts when it concerns other religions, for example

    " Then Mohammad decided he was a big shot and formed this group that decided they were going to take over the world by force"

    is not factual but rather disrespectful. I have not encountered anyone on this board that has said something derogatory about Jesus, God and the Virgin Mary. There may have been comments about Catholicism, Christianity, Islam or other religions in general or things that people who practice religion have done, questions about the origin of the bible but it has stopped there. I won't deny the so called 'Jihads' or 'Suicide' bombings done in the name of Islam but the statement you made was not at all fair.

    Mariam
    I am sorry that I offended you. Yes, my comment was disrespectful and I am sorry. I must let you know that many offensive and untrue things have been said about the Catholic Church on this thread and when you harm the Church you harm Christ--as said to Saul/Paul "Why are you persecuting me?"
  • Hondo
    Hondo Member Posts: 6,636 Member
    #44
    laurettas said:

    OK, Phil
    I went back and reread the posts.

    In the first post Hondo was commenting on the fact stated here:

    "In a ruling from the Iranian Supreme Court obtained by FoxNews.com, Nadarkhani was sentenced to execution by hanging for breaking Islamic law by conducting Christian worship and baptizing himself and others.

    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/10/03/iranian-pastor-has-greater-chance-facing-death-with-new-allegations/#ixzz1eN8i1B9p"

    that a Christian pastor was going to be executed for basically being a Christian. Hondo then commented that this is what happens when the government and religion are combined. There was no question about whether or not one would be willing to die for one's beliefs in this post.

    You put up a link which, according to the title given it, sounded like one of many slams against the Catholic Church. Upon reading the link just now, however, it was quite conciliatory toward the Church and actually stated that both Galileo and the Church may be right.

    I, in reaction to the title of the link, posted a link giving another position on the Galileo affair, which I thought was quite thorough and balanced using examples from non-Catholic sources to support its position.

    You then challenged my link as being biased in favor of the Catholic church. I have a difficult time understanding this position since I don't think you would apply it in other areas. If you want to know something that happened in Greece, you would look to the Greek historians of the day to provide the information. If you wanted to know something about a scientific development you would look to the scientists who were conducting the study. Makes sense to me but I guess you would have to look to a non-scientist to find out about a scientific development because scientists would be biased.

    We then discussed faith vs religion/church, etc.

    What many are not understanding is that the statements about having faith but not needing churches, following only the Bible, etc. are doctrinal statements. Since we are discussing doctrines, I have as much right as anyone to state my doctrine and explain it.

    Blake then began posting and we went off on our tangents, sparring about our positions. I thought we were having a good time and you even said this was better than discussing colons all of the time! You are right, we probably shouldn't have taken over Hondo's thread but it happens all of the time so I didn't think about it too much. The alternative therapy gurus are famous for hijacking threads, it seems to me. So, I will make this my last post on here and get back to cleaning my house which is what I am supposed to be doing!!

    Hi Laurettas

    I am not in for arguing or getting into doctrines issues about what anyone’s religion or believe is. A lot of the stuff you were posting about Peter and him being the head of the Church that is Church doctrines that you believe and that is fine with me, a lot of other religions don’t believe it. I would love to debate it with you but not here on CSN, it is just not the proper place for debating our personal believes.

    I made some statements about the Bible and that being the only book I use. That is not doctrines I was make a statment, sorry if you took that the wrong way.


    All I was trying to do with this post was to open everyone’s eyes that stuff like this still happens in our world today and asked if it was you standing for what you believed what would you do!

    Please do not stop posting as this is a place for everyone from all different perspectives and angles and religions. That is what makes this site so good to me; we don’t have to agree with each other, we are free to post what we think or believe about a subject. Just as long as there is no auguring over who is right or who is wrong.

    I like everyone here even Joe soccerfreaks, he says something’s about me now and then, but I know that is just the type of person he is. I don’t know why but I like the guy and respect his opinion. I believe that is the key to what makes this site so good. Not trying to prove a point or that only your opinion is correct but respecting everyone else’s opinion even if you disagree with it.

    I hope and pray by the grace of God that if the day should come that I am put on trial for what I believe I will stand strong for my Faith.

    Take care
    Hondo
  • soccerfreaks
    soccerfreaks Member Posts: 2,788 Member
    #45
    Hondo said:

    Hi Laurettas

    I am not in for arguing or getting into doctrines issues about what anyone’s religion or believe is. A lot of the stuff you were posting about Peter and him being the head of the Church that is Church doctrines that you believe and that is fine with me, a lot of other religions don’t believe it. I would love to debate it with you but not here on CSN, it is just not the proper place for debating our personal believes.

    I made some statements about the Bible and that being the only book I use. That is not doctrines I was make a statment, sorry if you took that the wrong way.


    All I was trying to do with this post was to open everyone’s eyes that stuff like this still happens in our world today and asked if it was you standing for what you believed what would you do!

    Please do not stop posting as this is a place for everyone from all different perspectives and angles and religions. That is what makes this site so good to me; we don’t have to agree with each other, we are free to post what we think or believe about a subject. Just as long as there is no auguring over who is right or who is wrong.

    I like everyone here even Joe soccerfreaks, he says something’s about me now and then, but I know that is just the type of person he is. I don’t know why but I like the guy and respect his opinion. I believe that is the key to what makes this site so good. Not trying to prove a point or that only your opinion is correct but respecting everyone else’s opinion even if you disagree with it.

    I hope and pray by the grace of God that if the day should come that I am put on trial for what I believe I will stand strong for my Faith.

    Take care
    Hondo

    ?
    How did my name come up here? There I was resisting temptation...geez.

    Take care,

    Joe
  • Hondo
    Hondo Member Posts: 6,636 Member
    #46
    soccerfreaks said:

    ?
    How did my name come up here? There I was resisting temptation...geez.

    Take care,

    Joe

    Hi Joe

    I was wondering why you never posted something by now. I wanted to show Laurettas that we all have different opinions and no one has more differences of opinion then you and I. But yet we can still all respect what each person believes and move on to other things. I find a lot of things very helpful and others not so helpful on this and all other sites here on CSN, just hope it can stay that way.

    Hondo
  • laurettas
    laurettas Member Posts: 372
    #47
    Hondo said:

    Hi Laurettas

    I am not in for arguing or getting into doctrines issues about what anyone’s religion or believe is. A lot of the stuff you were posting about Peter and him being the head of the Church that is Church doctrines that you believe and that is fine with me, a lot of other religions don’t believe it. I would love to debate it with you but not here on CSN, it is just not the proper place for debating our personal believes.

    I made some statements about the Bible and that being the only book I use. That is not doctrines I was make a statment, sorry if you took that the wrong way.


    All I was trying to do with this post was to open everyone’s eyes that stuff like this still happens in our world today and asked if it was you standing for what you believed what would you do!

    Please do not stop posting as this is a place for everyone from all different perspectives and angles and religions. That is what makes this site so good to me; we don’t have to agree with each other, we are free to post what we think or believe about a subject. Just as long as there is no auguring over who is right or who is wrong.

    I like everyone here even Joe soccerfreaks, he says something’s about me now and then, but I know that is just the type of person he is. I don’t know why but I like the guy and respect his opinion. I believe that is the key to what makes this site so good. Not trying to prove a point or that only your opinion is correct but respecting everyone else’s opinion even if you disagree with it.

    I hope and pray by the grace of God that if the day should come that I am put on trial for what I believe I will stand strong for my Faith.

    Take care
    Hondo

    Thanks, Hondo
    I did think that is what we were doing--debating our beliefs, particularly faith vs no faith. But I guess not everyone took it that way.
  • Hondo
    Hondo Member Posts: 6,636 Member
    #48
    laurettas said:

    Thanks, Hondo
    I did think that is what we were doing--debating our beliefs, particularly faith vs no faith. But I guess not everyone took it that way.

    Hi Laurettas
    Thanks for understanding; I hope you have a very very happy thanksgiving with all your family and friends.

    God bless and keep posting
    Hondo
  • Hondo
    Hondo Member Posts: 6,636 Member
    #49
    Iran Pastor Up-date

    I have notices that there are no more up-dates anywhere on this Pastor, not even the internet; Last good report was Nov 15, 2011. Just wondering if there are any fears about this sparking some kind of holy war between radical Christian and radical Muslims that it is being played down

    Hondo
  • mariam_11_09
    mariam_11_09 Member Posts: 691 Member
    #50
    Hondo said:

    Iran Pastor Up-date

    I have notices that there are no more up-dates anywhere on this Pastor, not even the internet; Last good report was Nov 15, 2011. Just wondering if there are any fears about this sparking some kind of holy war between radical Christian and radical Muslims that it is being played down

    Hondo

    Hondo, Christians or people

    Hondo, Christians or people of other faiths have been persecuted in Iran for quite some time now. We had neighbours, a family from Iran who were Zoarasterians who left because they were heavily discriminated against despite their ancestory in Iran and their religion which predates Islam. Unfortunately they found discrimination here because they were Iranian. Go figure! Anway, the point I am making is that Islamists in Iran have not been tolerant of other religions in Iran for a long time. The days of Rumi and Hafiz are over in Persia. What we are hearing about is not new. What is new is that we are hearing more about it.

    It is unfortunate because this is not what Islam is about (persecuting others because of their beliefs) nor trying to control people. The five pillars of Islam were meant help people live a life of integrity and be an example of Islam (amoungst other things) so people would want to convert. However there are always a few that need to control.

    I have witnessed (and have on camera) the radical Christians in this country trying to 'bring on' the second coming or end times and have gone out of their way to spark conflict. I know not all Christians are like this. And certainly Iran is feeding into this conflict at this time and more so with us 'hearing' more about these things.

    However I did read from article dated 11/15 -
    'Some sources indicate a ruling could come the second half of December. One said some Iranian Christians believe that, in the face of international outrage over the case, the government would announce a verdict near the Christmas holidays so that it would receive less notice. On Nov. 10, the Christian Broadcasting Network (CBN) reported that a verdict on Nadarkhani’s case was expected in mid-December, regardless of whether there is a ruling by Khamenei.'

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/iranian-pastor-on-death-row-under-pressure-61949/

    Maybe we just need to wait or create more outrage. And in saying that I am reminded of the 'Serenity Prayer'

    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.
  • Hondo
    Hondo Member Posts: 6,636 Member
    #51
    mariam_11_09 said:

    Hondo, Christians or people

    Hondo, Christians or people of other faiths have been persecuted in Iran for quite some time now. We had neighbours, a family from Iran who were Zoarasterians who left because they were heavily discriminated against despite their ancestory in Iran and their religion which predates Islam. Unfortunately they found discrimination here because they were Iranian. Go figure! Anway, the point I am making is that Islamists in Iran have not been tolerant of other religions in Iran for a long time. The days of Rumi and Hafiz are over in Persia. What we are hearing about is not new. What is new is that we are hearing more about it.

    It is unfortunate because this is not what Islam is about (persecuting others because of their beliefs) nor trying to control people. The five pillars of Islam were meant help people live a life of integrity and be an example of Islam (amoungst other things) so people would want to convert. However there are always a few that need to control.

    I have witnessed (and have on camera) the radical Christians in this country trying to 'bring on' the second coming or end times and have gone out of their way to spark conflict. I know not all Christians are like this. And certainly Iran is feeding into this conflict at this time and more so with us 'hearing' more about these things.

    However I did read from article dated 11/15 -
    'Some sources indicate a ruling could come the second half of December. One said some Iranian Christians believe that, in the face of international outrage over the case, the government would announce a verdict near the Christmas holidays so that it would receive less notice. On Nov. 10, the Christian Broadcasting Network (CBN) reported that a verdict on Nadarkhani’s case was expected in mid-December, regardless of whether there is a ruling by Khamenei.'

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/iranian-pastor-on-death-row-under-pressure-61949/

    Maybe we just need to wait or create more outrage. And in saying that I am reminded of the 'Serenity Prayer'

    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

    Hi Mariam
    Throughout the ages of time you will find that when one group of people gets into power you have persecution. Why would anyone want to force what they believe on someone else, to me it just does not make sense. To me God is a God of love he does not want force worship he want people to love him and worship Him of their own free will.

    You are right in that they are good people of all faiths just as much as there are evil or extremist in all faiths. People who think everyone should believe like they believe or they should be killed. Many of the Muslim men that I have had the pleasure of working with have all been very good and nice people. So like you said it is not the norm it is the radical extremist of all religions that are the problem.

    Hondo
  • kokomc
    kokomc Member Posts: 22
    #52
    Sad to say but many good people & Christians alike were killed by the Church in years past for nothing more than disagreeing with their teachings. The Church was so powerful then is forced itself on everyone even Kings and Rulers were subjects to its power. One reason why our founding Fathers made a Law that keeps the Government from making or enforcing Religious beliefs in our Country. Any Country where the Religion or Belief is in power you will always have persecution. But knowing history it always has a way of repeating itself.

    First Amendment – Religion and Expression:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.




    Mary

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