Does a post like this "there is healing in the name of Jesus" posted in the Cancer Forums hurt or he
Recently, a member made a post with the title "there is healing in the name of Jesus" and it had a link to a video with a comment saying "repeat the words in this song over and over. Only God can grant healing and miracles."
By member I mean someone who joined the same day or 1-2 days earlier, does not have a profile or diagnosis, the only friend(s) they have listed have similar profiles, and all they posted was the "there is healing in the name of Jesus" post.
Do you think they are truly religious or are they just making a post to stir things up?
Do you think that is does anything good to promote (in this case) Christianity or does it hurt that religion?
Do you think that if someone made a post saying "there is healing in the name of Mohamed" or another religious icon, that people would be as upset if others asked that the post be placed in this forum instead of the specific Cancer Forums or would they stand up for it with the same fervor?
I would find that post to be offensive even on here because it's claiming there is only one true God and if one had a different faith that they would/could not be helped. It does more to divide people than to bring us together. We all came from somewhere, we all have more in common than some may think.
Any opinions for or against this or is it really insignificant.
-p
Comments
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"You've got me hypnotized"
(Fleetwood Mac reference)
I was pleased to discover, at least on the forum where I found it, that it had already been flagged as offensive, sparing me the effort.
Personally, I find such an egregious post to be short of the mark on a number of level.s Of course, the religious one you point to is is the most obvious but perhaps the least dangerous.
Of greater peril is the notion that some folks will buy into this and allow it to afffect the nature of their care, probably to their detriment, and I find this extremely offensive.
Finally, I consider it offensive to the intelligence of the majority of the members of this site (there are obvious exceptions) and therefore consider it a personal affront to me.
In any event, I would think that mot people of the religion associated with the one linked to the post would consider it embarrassing, perhaps even a cruel satire of their beliefs.
Take care, my friend,
Joe0 -
Hi Phil
I think that you bring up some valid points. As for the "member" that posted on the colon board, I wasn't quite sure what the motive was, since they posted the same message on several boards. I would imagine that if anyone of any religious belief posted on an inappropiate board, people would be upset. I also think it's human nature not to want to be told what to do. Throw in the factor that it's a stranger whose belief's differ from our own and as Emeril says "BAM". I've seen a few heated discussions on this board also, but these seem to resolve when the persons involved realize what board they are on and become more respectful.
Although I was raised in a Christian home, I no longer have the faith I once had. I don't really think a post of this type is beneficial to Christianity, especially since there is no accompanying background on the poster. I find that some who pretend to be Christians are overzealous and come across with a "better than you are attitude". I also have friends who I feel are true Christians in the sense that they really care about their fellow man.
Sadly, I can't think of a single person I know that is of another faith, so I can't comment much on the other question. I think there is "bad publicity" for many religions based on the actions of the few who make the news.
I think we should be respectful of others no matter "what" or "if" a belief exists. We should act like a family(maybe we do).LOL My hubby and Johnnybegood are Christians, strong in their faith. My son is an Atheist. I haven't yet figured out what I am.
Luv,
Wolfen0 -
Trying to remember
Phil, I am trying to remember what my reaction would have been to something like this when I was an atheist. I probably would have scoffed, said that is really stupid and gone about my business. I am old enough that when I was an atheistic teen, I had to endure religious Christmas plays, prayers at events such as graduation, etc. I just kept my mouth shut, didn't bow my head and went about my business.
Now, as a Christian, I would not be offended at all if a Muslim or Buddhist posted something similar on an open forum such as this cancer board. I would silently say that I didn't agree maybe but would not be offended.
I find these sorts of things no more offensive than the constant push for alternative medicine, exercise, etc. Those people, to me, are more obnoxious in pushing their "agenda" than any religious reference that I have seen. However, I see them being defended when people take offense. Why the difference. They are both pushing their ideas of "cures" for cancer which is what should be taken offense at. That to me, on this cancer site, is what we should be lobbying against. No one should be touting their opinion as a cure all without backing it up with substantial evidence of people cured. It is a total injustice and I see people making decisions about their care following some of these people and it could be to the jeopardy of their lives.0 -
Laurettaslaurettas said:Trying to remember
Phil, I am trying to remember what my reaction would have been to something like this when I was an atheist. I probably would have scoffed, said that is really stupid and gone about my business. I am old enough that when I was an atheistic teen, I had to endure religious Christmas plays, prayers at events such as graduation, etc. I just kept my mouth shut, didn't bow my head and went about my business.
Now, as a Christian, I would not be offended at all if a Muslim or Buddhist posted something similar on an open forum such as this cancer board. I would silently say that I didn't agree maybe but would not be offended.
I find these sorts of things no more offensive than the constant push for alternative medicine, exercise, etc. Those people, to me, are more obnoxious in pushing their "agenda" than any religious reference that I have seen. However, I see them being defended when people take offense. Why the difference. They are both pushing their ideas of "cures" for cancer which is what should be taken offense at. That to me, on this cancer site, is what we should be lobbying against. No one should be touting their opinion as a cure all without backing it up with substantial evidence of people cured. It is a total injustice and I see people making decisions about their care following some of these people and it could be to the jeopardy of their lives.
I'm agnostic but one thing I believe in is that one does not need Religion in order to have faith in a supreme being or whatever one wants to label it. I don't believe that too many people would take offense to other faiths being posted in the way that the post in question was but I'd bet you dollars to donuts (???) that whoever posted that initially would take GREAT offense to a post like that. It leaves no room for other ideas or faiths.
I am really very surprised at how you equate posting about one's faith to medical treatment options for cancer. I fail to see any connection at all. Nutrition and exercise (when done under supervision) doesn't kill people (usually). Living a healthy lifestyle just sort of makes sense. Eating only fatty foods and drinking only soda will kill people who don't have cancer. Sort of the old Garbage in, Garbage out thing.
When a person has cancer and goes to a doctor, I don't believe that they often say:
"we have three options..
Chemo
Nutrition and exercise
and Prayer"
I do not doubt that there are some who do believe that but I've never heard of it.
Laurettas, with cancer as I'm sure you've seen, there is no one size fits all for treatments. What worked for one may or may not work for another. We all get cancer for different reasons, we all get cured (or not) by different methods. It's nothing like breaking one's arm where you set it, keep it stable, and it heals. I think it's VERY important to use everything that is at our disposal to help us beat cancer. I'm glad they are defended. Many times it's not reciprocated though and people attack chemo as if it's some sort of sure-fire death ray with absolutely no merit at all when it has helped millions of people. It's not a two-way street much of the time. I wish it were but it ain't.
Maybe praying does cure cancer. I have seen too many people on this site die even though they have incredibly strong faith. People may say "it's God's plan". Who knows, maybe it is. The Lord works in mysterious ways as they say...
"No one should be touting their opinion as a cure all without backing it up with substantial evidence of people cured." I agree. Mainly because there is NO CURE ALL. We do have many members who have beaten cancer through nutrition and are in remission or "cured" for lack of a better term. I don't know of any who have been "cured" using TCM but I'm sure they are out there. As far as studies go, I read the other day where it takes on average $10 Billion to bring a drug from conception to FDA approval. Who, other than the pharmaceutical industry, can afford to do the studies? Also, drugs are derived from natural substances. That doesn't always mean natural is better but it also doesn't discount that they could have a benefit to many.
I think people need to have open minds with cancer, beliefs of faith, and other things where there are differing opinions and where NO ONE KNOWS the absolute truth.
Back to the original post though, people who join a site just to "spread the word" are in a class by themselves...
Thanks for commenting.
Everyone else too....
-phil0 -
Perhaps I should send out a
Perhaps I should send out a message 'There is healing the name of Allah' , say shahada, recite certain surahs, make Zikr and you will be healed! I think I would be shot down very quickly although it is tempting to see what the response would be and compare. Admittedly I am not up for pushing buttons, I did enough of that with my brother as a kid
Personally, I don't think it does any 'good' to promote religion in this way anywhere. If people came in with compassion and understanding where 'actions speak louder than words' I am sure they are more likely to win people over. I don't doubt people find healing in the name of Jesus and certainly in the name of Allah and also in other ways unknown to me. however I am not sure I fully understand why people feels so compelled to push and advertise their religions in the way they do.0 -
miriam,mariam_11_09 said:Perhaps I should send out a
Perhaps I should send out a message 'There is healing the name of Allah' , say shahada, recite certain surahs, make Zikr and you will be healed! I think I would be shot down very quickly although it is tempting to see what the response would be and compare. Admittedly I am not up for pushing buttons, I did enough of that with my brother as a kid
Personally, I don't think it does any 'good' to promote religion in this way anywhere. If people came in with compassion and understanding where 'actions speak louder than words' I am sure they are more likely to win people over. I don't doubt people find healing in the name of Jesus and certainly in the name of Allah and also in other ways unknown to me. however I am not sure I fully understand why people feels so compelled to push and advertise their religions in the way they do.
I would guess that people post religious things for the same reason that those pushing a diet or other alternative method do. They think they have the solution to someone's difficulty. It is done in all good will but is not always received in the way it was intended. Just as some get offended by the religious solutions, I get offended by the alternative solutions. They are all adding burdens already heavy to those with serious illnesses. None of these things is a sure thing for dealing with cancer and I just wish that people would stop pushing them like they are.0 -
usually my opinion is insignificant :>)
I'm about to open my mouth and insert foot. I'm making a comment on something I didn't watch. If I doubt what the person who is posting is about, I don't follow their links. It could be a virus. Even if it's not a virus I refuse to contribute to their 'count'. Maybe they posted all over this site to increase their 'count' for a reason other than religion. I don't know how YouTube works but blogs you can moneyize and every click you gain a little. To do well you need high numbers. So they have to push their blog. I think high numbers gets you more attention. Just another angle.
I have a blog and one day someone left a comment and a link to his blog. I found he was a hacker (self confessed). He was following a whole string of blogs. There are some strange people out there and it's hard to know what their motivation is. I did delete the comment he left on my blog (I moderate comments,heehee, only good survive).
So in answer to your question, Phil...what was the question? Never mind. It's hard to get a straight answer out of me anyway.0 -
I would like to know themPhillieG said:Laurettas
I'm agnostic but one thing I believe in is that one does not need Religion in order to have faith in a supreme being or whatever one wants to label it. I don't believe that too many people would take offense to other faiths being posted in the way that the post in question was but I'd bet you dollars to donuts (???) that whoever posted that initially would take GREAT offense to a post like that. It leaves no room for other ideas or faiths.
I am really very surprised at how you equate posting about one's faith to medical treatment options for cancer. I fail to see any connection at all. Nutrition and exercise (when done under supervision) doesn't kill people (usually). Living a healthy lifestyle just sort of makes sense. Eating only fatty foods and drinking only soda will kill people who don't have cancer. Sort of the old Garbage in, Garbage out thing.
When a person has cancer and goes to a doctor, I don't believe that they often say:
"we have three options..
Chemo
Nutrition and exercise
and Prayer"
I do not doubt that there are some who do believe that but I've never heard of it.
Laurettas, with cancer as I'm sure you've seen, there is no one size fits all for treatments. What worked for one may or may not work for another. We all get cancer for different reasons, we all get cured (or not) by different methods. It's nothing like breaking one's arm where you set it, keep it stable, and it heals. I think it's VERY important to use everything that is at our disposal to help us beat cancer. I'm glad they are defended. Many times it's not reciprocated though and people attack chemo as if it's some sort of sure-fire death ray with absolutely no merit at all when it has helped millions of people. It's not a two-way street much of the time. I wish it were but it ain't.
Maybe praying does cure cancer. I have seen too many people on this site die even though they have incredibly strong faith. People may say "it's God's plan". Who knows, maybe it is. The Lord works in mysterious ways as they say...
"No one should be touting their opinion as a cure all without backing it up with substantial evidence of people cured." I agree. Mainly because there is NO CURE ALL. We do have many members who have beaten cancer through nutrition and are in remission or "cured" for lack of a better term. I don't know of any who have been "cured" using TCM but I'm sure they are out there. As far as studies go, I read the other day where it takes on average $10 Billion to bring a drug from conception to FDA approval. Who, other than the pharmaceutical industry, can afford to do the studies? Also, drugs are derived from natural substances. That doesn't always mean natural is better but it also doesn't discount that they could have a benefit to many.
I think people need to have open minds with cancer, beliefs of faith, and other things where there are differing opinions and where NO ONE KNOWS the absolute truth.
Back to the original post though, people who join a site just to "spread the word" are in a class by themselves...
Thanks for commenting.
Everyone else too....
-phil
Phil, I would like to know those who have been healed by nutrition. Most of the stories I have heard are quite sketchy--many began their alternative therapies after standard treatment which may have been the healing source but the alternatives are what gets the credit.
If we are going to censor all religious content, then we need to ban all talk about yoga--it is a religious exercise, meditation on nothingness, it is a religious practice, etc. etc. I find offense that these non-Christian religious practices are tolerated and accepted but any mention of Christianity is pounced upon as being inappropriate. And please don't try to say that yoga is merely exercise--those who are knowledgeable about the practice state that it is impossible to separate the "exercise" component from the religious because the positions themselves have a religious connotation, just most people don't understand that.
Religion has been studied for its health effects and has come out with positive effects. I had an interesting experience one time myself. I found myself at a doctor's office quite early one time so I sat and prayed the rosary--meditation but I'm sure not an acceptable one on this forum--and when I had my blood pressure checked, it was lower than it had been for years. My father-in-law, who had been away from the Church for years, was dying of cancer, in ICU, gasping for breath while on oxygen, vitals through the roof. A priest came in, heard his confession, the nurse saw his vitals drop dramatically on the monitors, and he went home to die breathing comfortably with no oxygen. My sister-in-law had also left the Church, got pregnant, had an abortion and a few years later got married. She wanted children but could not conceive for several years. Started going to fertility treatments but nothing happened, gave that up and eventually decided to go back to Church. Went to confession, confessed her abortion--at some point I guess she had decided that it was a wrong choice--and was pregnant within two months. And my husband's cure from Hodgkin's disease. Did you read the thread where I explained that? Those are just examples within my own immediate family. So, for me to deny that religion is helpful, would be silly. I have seen too much in my own family to deny the goodness of faith in the God who is Love.
Thanks, Phil, for starting this thread. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this aspect of our cancer journey.0 -
Those people who promotelaurettas said:miriam,
I would guess that people post religious things for the same reason that those pushing a diet or other alternative method do. They think they have the solution to someone's difficulty. It is done in all good will but is not always received in the way it was intended. Just as some get offended by the religious solutions, I get offended by the alternative solutions. They are all adding burdens already heavy to those with serious illnesses. None of these things is a sure thing for dealing with cancer and I just wish that people would stop pushing them like they are.
Those people who promote nutrition or yoga or whatever as a form of healing in the same way as the Christians who say 'you will be healed in the name of Jesus' are not tolerated either. They are not doctors and have no right to a claim for a cure for cancer. No-body wants to be told how they 'SHOULD' be healed. No-one has the answer to the global healing of cancer except Allah/God/Universe/Divine (omitt the later part if you don't believe in something larger than ourselves).
Many American people are not nutritionally consicous and eating differently or meditating may improve their health considerably so this sharing can benefit many people depending on how it is done. In the same breath people on this site have shared their Christian beliefs and how it has helped them through cancer and no-one shot them down but they again didn't claim to have the 'answer'.
It is more about how it is done than what is done. As Phil has said and I repeat it 'actions speak louder than words'. If Jesus is really your healer, then whatever you do, do it with the compassion, love and tolerance that Jesus spoke about, or at least as best you can.
PS: I am not sure what site you have been on where they push alternative solutions. I have seen very little of it.0 -
;-)Marcia527 said:usually my opinion is insignificant :>)
I'm about to open my mouth and insert foot. I'm making a comment on something I didn't watch. If I doubt what the person who is posting is about, I don't follow their links. It could be a virus. Even if it's not a virus I refuse to contribute to their 'count'. Maybe they posted all over this site to increase their 'count' for a reason other than religion. I don't know how YouTube works but blogs you can moneyize and every click you gain a little. To do well you need high numbers. So they have to push their blog. I think high numbers gets you more attention. Just another angle.
I have a blog and one day someone left a comment and a link to his blog. I found he was a hacker (self confessed). He was following a whole string of blogs. There are some strange people out there and it's hard to know what their motivation is. I did delete the comment he left on my blog (I moderate comments,heehee, only good survive).
So in answer to your question, Phil...what was the question? Never mind. It's hard to get a straight answer out of me anyway.
Too funny Marcia0 -
Oy veilaurettas said:I would like to know them
Phil, I would like to know those who have been healed by nutrition. Most of the stories I have heard are quite sketchy--many began their alternative therapies after standard treatment which may have been the healing source but the alternatives are what gets the credit.
If we are going to censor all religious content, then we need to ban all talk about yoga--it is a religious exercise, meditation on nothingness, it is a religious practice, etc. etc. I find offense that these non-Christian religious practices are tolerated and accepted but any mention of Christianity is pounced upon as being inappropriate. And please don't try to say that yoga is merely exercise--those who are knowledgeable about the practice state that it is impossible to separate the "exercise" component from the religious because the positions themselves have a religious connotation, just most people don't understand that.
Religion has been studied for its health effects and has come out with positive effects. I had an interesting experience one time myself. I found myself at a doctor's office quite early one time so I sat and prayed the rosary--meditation but I'm sure not an acceptable one on this forum--and when I had my blood pressure checked, it was lower than it had been for years. My father-in-law, who had been away from the Church for years, was dying of cancer, in ICU, gasping for breath while on oxygen, vitals through the roof. A priest came in, heard his confession, the nurse saw his vitals drop dramatically on the monitors, and he went home to die breathing comfortably with no oxygen. My sister-in-law had also left the Church, got pregnant, had an abortion and a few years later got married. She wanted children but could not conceive for several years. Started going to fertility treatments but nothing happened, gave that up and eventually decided to go back to Church. Went to confession, confessed her abortion--at some point I guess she had decided that it was a wrong choice--and was pregnant within two months. And my husband's cure from Hodgkin's disease. Did you read the thread where I explained that? Those are just examples within my own immediate family. So, for me to deny that religion is helpful, would be silly. I have seen too much in my own family to deny the goodness of faith in the God who is Love.
Thanks, Phil, for starting this thread. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this aspect of our cancer journey.
"Phil, I would like to know those who have been healed by nutrition. Most of the stories I have heard are quite sketchy--many began their alternative therapies after standard treatment which may have been the healing source but the alternatives are what gets the credit.
If we are going to censor all religious content, then we need to ban all talk about yoga--it is a religious exercise, meditation on nothingness, it is a religious practice, etc. etc. I find offense that these non-Christian religious practices are tolerated and accepted but any mention of Christianity is pounced upon as being inappropriate."
In the cases I am familiar with, the people did do surgery then did the nutritional stuff afterwards instead of chemo. Who knows for CERTAIN if that cured them. No one. I can't PROVE that chemo helped me. I did it and so far so good. You are asking what I believe are answers to questions that can't be answered with 100% certainty. Yoga certainly CAN be spiritual but it can also be practiced just for the exercise benefits. That's up to the person who is doing it. I practiced yoga for a few years many years ago and it certainly was NOT religious for me. But that's me. No one pounces on Christianity, it just happens that they really seem to be the primary group who "preaches" here. Since May 2005 i have yet to see a post in the colon cancer forum by any other faith. Believe me, if the Dali Llama started posting his beliefs in the colon cancer forum I'd have the same reaction. There are certain faiths whose "duty" is getting more people on board. If they want to recruit, maybe they could post in this forum since this is the one that deals with that topic. It seems similar to me that if I had a problem with my car I would not take it to a plumber to be fixed. I'd go to a car mechanic. We have to respect others but they have to respect us too. What's wrong with that?
Your comment, If we are going to censor all religious content is way off. This has nothing to do with censorship at all so please don't try to make it like it is cause it ain't. Like I commented above ALL RELIGIONS WOULD BE TREATED THE SAME. it's a matter of putting posts in the proper thread. Period. Nothing more, nothing less. I have absolutely no problem with what a person wants to believe, it's just that those who post like the example I brought up are for one, in violation of the Terms & Conditions of this site. It would be similar to me that if whensomeone posted that they would include their sexual preference. I really don't care for one and two, there is a forum for that so if a person wishes to discuss that they are free to discuss it there.
I fail to see how your comparisons to exercise and nutrition fit into this discussions their than some people fail to accept there are other opinions just as valid as theirs is...
-p0 -
Mariammariam_11_09 said:Those people who promote
Those people who promote nutrition or yoga or whatever as a form of healing in the same way as the Christians who say 'you will be healed in the name of Jesus' are not tolerated either. They are not doctors and have no right to a claim for a cure for cancer. No-body wants to be told how they 'SHOULD' be healed. No-one has the answer to the global healing of cancer except Allah/God/Universe/Divine (omitt the later part if you don't believe in something larger than ourselves).
Many American people are not nutritionally consicous and eating differently or meditating may improve their health considerably so this sharing can benefit many people depending on how it is done. In the same breath people on this site have shared their Christian beliefs and how it has helped them through cancer and no-one shot them down but they again didn't claim to have the 'answer'.
It is more about how it is done than what is done. As Phil has said and I repeat it 'actions speak louder than words'. If Jesus is really your healer, then whatever you do, do it with the compassion, love and tolerance that Jesus spoke about, or at least as best you can.
PS: I am not sure what site you have been on where they push alternative solutions. I have seen very little of it.
0 -
I believe that a person's beliefs are powerful as is prayerPhillieG said:;-)
Too funny Marcia
I think that if you had a healing Phil I think you would look at all of this a totally different way. I think that is the case for many people who KNOW they have been touched by God in a dramatic way, as I was, and I can't really explain it any other way. When it happens the person experiences a kind of KNOWING unlike any knowing they have experienced before.
It is pretty frustrating for people like me, and there are tons of people like me out there, who have experienced some form of direct contact and in fact most of us do have that happen everyday but we just don't recognize it as that. Too much 'noise' around us so we miss the contact times, those little whispers of doubt about this and that, our 'gut' feelings. It is very frustrating not to be able to pass this amazing experience along to people who could really use the hope and belief and while I am not here to convince anyone of anything it's something I bring up once in awhile when moved by a topic that seems to touch on my experiences.
I do believe that it happens to some and not 'seeminly to' others only in that the others aren't paying attention to small things in their lives that happen. They pass them off as 'coincidences'. Because of what happened to me I know that they are not coincidencies. I personally was praying my face off before the healing happened as I was in pretty bad shape in transplant as were others who were praying for me too at the same time.
I think that most people who start to chat about their beliefs do so in good faith and my guess is that something has happened to them directly, as it did to me, and they simply want to share the good news and the hope.
I believe strongly in group prayer as well because at the time of my healing I found out later there was at least one church prayer chain praying for me. Coincidence? lol.
I don't know if I addressed the questions you asked but this is my take on postings with a religious/faith based theme. It's what came to mind and I had to type it.
Have a good day Phil.
Bluerose0 -
Hi Bluerosebluerose said:I believe that a person's beliefs are powerful as is prayer
I think that if you had a healing Phil I think you would look at all of this a totally different way. I think that is the case for many people who KNOW they have been touched by God in a dramatic way, as I was, and I can't really explain it any other way. When it happens the person experiences a kind of KNOWING unlike any knowing they have experienced before.
It is pretty frustrating for people like me, and there are tons of people like me out there, who have experienced some form of direct contact and in fact most of us do have that happen everyday but we just don't recognize it as that. Too much 'noise' around us so we miss the contact times, those little whispers of doubt about this and that, our 'gut' feelings. It is very frustrating not to be able to pass this amazing experience along to people who could really use the hope and belief and while I am not here to convince anyone of anything it's something I bring up once in awhile when moved by a topic that seems to touch on my experiences.
I do believe that it happens to some and not 'seeminly to' others only in that the others aren't paying attention to small things in their lives that happen. They pass them off as 'coincidences'. Because of what happened to me I know that they are not coincidencies. I personally was praying my face off before the healing happened as I was in pretty bad shape in transplant as were others who were praying for me too at the same time.
I think that most people who start to chat about their beliefs do so in good faith and my guess is that something has happened to them directly, as it did to me, and they simply want to share the good news and the hope.
I believe strongly in group prayer as well because at the time of my healing I found out later there was at least one church prayer chain praying for me. Coincidence? lol.
I don't know if I addressed the questions you asked but this is my take on postings with a religious/faith based theme. It's what came to mind and I had to type it.
Have a good day Phil.
Bluerose
I think that there is a lot of power in what we believe. I used to brush off coincidences in the past but having cancer really tuned me in moreso to them. There hasn't been anything earth shattering but still, little things happen and I don't ignore them. Or at least I try not to ignore them. The mind/body connection is very powerful, I don't know if we'll ever really understand it. In my youth, I did psilosyben mushrooms a few times. They've been used in religious/spiritual ceremonies for thousands of years. Very many people experience what is best described as being one with God. My experience wasn't religious but it was incredibly spiritual and peaceful. They actually are doing studies at Johns Hopkins on the benefit of mushrooms for people with later stage cancer. I applied but never heard back :-(
I have a very close friend who hit a tree while skiing out West and had an out of body experience. He felt like he could have crossed over but chose not to. I have no reason to doubt him or you either. I think too that two people can have the same experience but interpret it very differently. If I were religious, I certainly could have taken my experiences as a sign from God.
I agree that most people who discuss their beliefs do it good faith. However...that really did not seem to be the case with the post I'm referring to. It seemed to strictly be a spread the word post and a hit and run. SPAM.
I don't see how it helps their cause at all.
Thanks for posting
-phil0 -
The colon sitemariam_11_09 said:Those people who promote
Those people who promote nutrition or yoga or whatever as a form of healing in the same way as the Christians who say 'you will be healed in the name of Jesus' are not tolerated either. They are not doctors and have no right to a claim for a cure for cancer. No-body wants to be told how they 'SHOULD' be healed. No-one has the answer to the global healing of cancer except Allah/God/Universe/Divine (omitt the later part if you don't believe in something larger than ourselves).
Many American people are not nutritionally consicous and eating differently or meditating may improve their health considerably so this sharing can benefit many people depending on how it is done. In the same breath people on this site have shared their Christian beliefs and how it has helped them through cancer and no-one shot them down but they again didn't claim to have the 'answer'.
It is more about how it is done than what is done. As Phil has said and I repeat it 'actions speak louder than words'. If Jesus is really your healer, then whatever you do, do it with the compassion, love and tolerance that Jesus spoke about, or at least as best you can.
PS: I am not sure what site you have been on where they push alternative solutions. I have seen very little of it.
is where I spend my time and there are numerous postings about the alternative stuff. Some of it is fine, some is quite arrogant, some accuse others of being to fearful to try it, etc. etc. No one that I have asked has yet given me a list of people they know who had active cancer brought under control.0 -
AgainPhillieG said:Oy vei
"Phil, I would like to know those who have been healed by nutrition. Most of the stories I have heard are quite sketchy--many began their alternative therapies after standard treatment which may have been the healing source but the alternatives are what gets the credit.
If we are going to censor all religious content, then we need to ban all talk about yoga--it is a religious exercise, meditation on nothingness, it is a religious practice, etc. etc. I find offense that these non-Christian religious practices are tolerated and accepted but any mention of Christianity is pounced upon as being inappropriate."
In the cases I am familiar with, the people did do surgery then did the nutritional stuff afterwards instead of chemo. Who knows for CERTAIN if that cured them. No one. I can't PROVE that chemo helped me. I did it and so far so good. You are asking what I believe are answers to questions that can't be answered with 100% certainty. Yoga certainly CAN be spiritual but it can also be practiced just for the exercise benefits. That's up to the person who is doing it. I practiced yoga for a few years many years ago and it certainly was NOT religious for me. But that's me. No one pounces on Christianity, it just happens that they really seem to be the primary group who "preaches" here. Since May 2005 i have yet to see a post in the colon cancer forum by any other faith. Believe me, if the Dali Llama started posting his beliefs in the colon cancer forum I'd have the same reaction. There are certain faiths whose "duty" is getting more people on board. If they want to recruit, maybe they could post in this forum since this is the one that deals with that topic. It seems similar to me that if I had a problem with my car I would not take it to a plumber to be fixed. I'd go to a car mechanic. We have to respect others but they have to respect us too. What's wrong with that?
Your comment, If we are going to censor all religious content is way off. This has nothing to do with censorship at all so please don't try to make it like it is cause it ain't. Like I commented above ALL RELIGIONS WOULD BE TREATED THE SAME. it's a matter of putting posts in the proper thread. Period. Nothing more, nothing less. I have absolutely no problem with what a person wants to believe, it's just that those who post like the example I brought up are for one, in violation of the Terms & Conditions of this site. It would be similar to me that if whensomeone posted that they would include their sexual preference. I really don't care for one and two, there is a forum for that so if a person wishes to discuss that they are free to discuss it there.
I fail to see how your comparisons to exercise and nutrition fit into this discussions their than some people fail to accept there are other opinions just as valid as theirs is...
-p
Phil, just because people don't know that something they do is religious in content, doesn't mean that it is not. I had a friend who went to her church and participated in some activities that she didn't find out until later were Wiccan rituals. The same is true with yoga. I have heard several very knowledgeable people who teach yoga who say that you cannot erase the religious component of the yoga exercises. They are part of the ritual. I would guess the same would be true of the meditating on nothingness--that is Buddhist in origin. Now if people wanted to ponder the beauty of creation or music or whatever, that would be different but the whole nothingness thing is part of Buddhism. Maybe someone has tried to separate it, but that is the source.
I equate nutrition and exercise to religious promotion because some are trying to say the same thing. If you do this, you will be cured. It is not true for religious practices, nor is it true for nutrition and exercise. I still think that anyone who promotes anything on these sites as a cure ought to be chastised.0 -
A little off baselaurettas said:I would like to know them
Phil, I would like to know those who have been healed by nutrition. Most of the stories I have heard are quite sketchy--many began their alternative therapies after standard treatment which may have been the healing source but the alternatives are what gets the credit.
If we are going to censor all religious content, then we need to ban all talk about yoga--it is a religious exercise, meditation on nothingness, it is a religious practice, etc. etc. I find offense that these non-Christian religious practices are tolerated and accepted but any mention of Christianity is pounced upon as being inappropriate. And please don't try to say that yoga is merely exercise--those who are knowledgeable about the practice state that it is impossible to separate the "exercise" component from the religious because the positions themselves have a religious connotation, just most people don't understand that.
Religion has been studied for its health effects and has come out with positive effects. I had an interesting experience one time myself. I found myself at a doctor's office quite early one time so I sat and prayed the rosary--meditation but I'm sure not an acceptable one on this forum--and when I had my blood pressure checked, it was lower than it had been for years. My father-in-law, who had been away from the Church for years, was dying of cancer, in ICU, gasping for breath while on oxygen, vitals through the roof. A priest came in, heard his confession, the nurse saw his vitals drop dramatically on the monitors, and he went home to die breathing comfortably with no oxygen. My sister-in-law had also left the Church, got pregnant, had an abortion and a few years later got married. She wanted children but could not conceive for several years. Started going to fertility treatments but nothing happened, gave that up and eventually decided to go back to Church. Went to confession, confessed her abortion--at some point I guess she had decided that it was a wrong choice--and was pregnant within two months. And my husband's cure from Hodgkin's disease. Did you read the thread where I explained that? Those are just examples within my own immediate family. So, for me to deny that religion is helpful, would be silly. I have seen too much in my own family to deny the goodness of faith in the God who is Love.
Thanks, Phil, for starting this thread. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this aspect of our cancer journey.
"...then we need to ban all talk about yoga--it is a religious exercise, meditation on nothingness, it is a religious practice, etc. etc. I find offense that these non-Christian religious practices are tolerated and accepted but any mention of Christianity is pounced upon as being inappropriate."
Yoga has roots in religion, but is not of necessity religious. Much like Shaolin Kung Fu, the practitioners do not have to believe in the myths/legends that were part of its origins. Another way of thinking about it is crackers and wine. In a Catholic ceremony, they are the blood and body of Christ. At a party, they are refreshments.
The rules are pretty clear (CSN Terms and Conditions) on religion:
No User shall use the Service to proselytize. The religious beliefs of all faiths are to be respected. The spiritual beliefs of all Members are to be respected regardless of whether they are in accordance with the beliefs of any religious group or teachings of other Members. No User shall disrespect or judge the beliefs or decisions of other Members on religious, spiritual, or other issues including but not limited to lifestyle, relationships, and medical care.
And on medical advice:
No User shall advise other Users about medical care or attempt to influence their medical care decisions. Members are encouraged to share their own medical experiences, but medical advice to others is strictly prohibited, regardless of a Member's medical education, credentials, or experience. The purpose of the Cancer Survivors Network is a peer to peer support service.
So, as I read it, and as it seems to be practiced, the key word is proselytize. Someone requesting thoughts and prayers, or saying their loved one has gone to meet a particular deity is acceptable. Making a statement that the only way to a cure is through the grace of Shiva is probably going to get deleted. This paragraph covers respect for others treatment decisions, so it would also mean that someone who chooses to do TCM or the Hoxsley treatment should be treated with the same degree of respect as someone stating that they are an animist.
The second part may get violated more than we care to admit. Personally, I see someone posting on seemingly every treatment question that we should consider some traditional therapy that they happen to have faith in, combined with some criticism of the current standard of care, is both proselytizing and attempting to influence medical care decisions. The same could possibly be said of those who seem to post whatever it was they just read, or whatever message they got at the latest for profit seminar they attended. Of course, that is just my opinion, and I am not a moderator on this forum.0 -
Laurettas,laurettas said:Again
Phil, just because people don't know that something they do is religious in content, doesn't mean that it is not. I had a friend who went to her church and participated in some activities that she didn't find out until later were Wiccan rituals. The same is true with yoga. I have heard several very knowledgeable people who teach yoga who say that you cannot erase the religious component of the yoga exercises. They are part of the ritual. I would guess the same would be true of the meditating on nothingness--that is Buddhist in origin. Now if people wanted to ponder the beauty of creation or music or whatever, that would be different but the whole nothingness thing is part of Buddhism. Maybe someone has tried to separate it, but that is the source.
I equate nutrition and exercise to religious promotion because some are trying to say the same thing. If you do this, you will be cured. It is not true for religious practices, nor is it true for nutrition and exercise. I still think that anyone who promotes anything on these sites as a cure ought to be chastised.
"...just because people don't know that something they do is religious in content, doesn't mean that it is not."
In Australia the Aborigines go on walkabout, basically a long walk with no particular destination, but with a religious component. Based on your Yoga example, someone who goes hiking alone is practicing the aboriginal religion, whether they realize it or not.
Religious ritual can include planting, harvesting, butchering (sacrifice and giving thanks), dressing up and begging for candy, giving gifts, hiding eggs, lighting candles, keeping relics, bathing, shaving (or not), even the type of hat you wear, or the color of your shirt. Doing any one of those things might be part of a religious ritual, at the same time they can each be completely secular. Any meaning given to them is given by the participant.
And Yoga? Most of the folks I know who practice it are a bit confused/confusing regarding religion. Many are pseudo Buddhists, many are new age spiritualists, and no small number are Christian or one of the other mainstream religions. Still others are agnostic or atheist, and are only partaking for the perceived health benefit of maintaining body flexibility and tone.
Most new sects within any religion define themselves by what the old sect got wrong (depicting Jesus on the cross as opposed to just depicting a cross, or claiming that halloween is pagan or Santa is satan) or how the general culture has lost its way and become sinful. It is an us vs them mentality, creating an evil other (real or perceived) that has the effect of cementing the new group together.0 -
OKlaurettas said:Again
Phil, just because people don't know that something they do is religious in content, doesn't mean that it is not. I had a friend who went to her church and participated in some activities that she didn't find out until later were Wiccan rituals. The same is true with yoga. I have heard several very knowledgeable people who teach yoga who say that you cannot erase the religious component of the yoga exercises. They are part of the ritual. I would guess the same would be true of the meditating on nothingness--that is Buddhist in origin. Now if people wanted to ponder the beauty of creation or music or whatever, that would be different but the whole nothingness thing is part of Buddhism. Maybe someone has tried to separate it, but that is the source.
I equate nutrition and exercise to religious promotion because some are trying to say the same thing. If you do this, you will be cured. It is not true for religious practices, nor is it true for nutrition and exercise. I still think that anyone who promotes anything on these sites as a cure ought to be chastised.
One man's ceiling is another man's floor...
You seem to be looking for the boogeyman. I really do not understand your point at all.
So if it were up to you, this site would not exist at all since promoting any possible cure is linked to religion somehow?
You have your perceptions of motives behind people's actions but aren't meditation and prayer similar? Meditation looks inwards though, prayer doesn't. I know that's a big No-No with most organized religions...There was a point in time where you could be killed for having a translated version of the bible
I believe the answers lie within us but that's me0 -
Yoga explanationBuckwirth said:A little off base
"...then we need to ban all talk about yoga--it is a religious exercise, meditation on nothingness, it is a religious practice, etc. etc. I find offense that these non-Christian religious practices are tolerated and accepted but any mention of Christianity is pounced upon as being inappropriate."
Yoga has roots in religion, but is not of necessity religious. Much like Shaolin Kung Fu, the practitioners do not have to believe in the myths/legends that were part of its origins. Another way of thinking about it is crackers and wine. In a Catholic ceremony, they are the blood and body of Christ. At a party, they are refreshments.
The rules are pretty clear (CSN Terms and Conditions) on religion:
No User shall use the Service to proselytize. The religious beliefs of all faiths are to be respected. The spiritual beliefs of all Members are to be respected regardless of whether they are in accordance with the beliefs of any religious group or teachings of other Members. No User shall disrespect or judge the beliefs or decisions of other Members on religious, spiritual, or other issues including but not limited to lifestyle, relationships, and medical care.
And on medical advice:
No User shall advise other Users about medical care or attempt to influence their medical care decisions. Members are encouraged to share their own medical experiences, but medical advice to others is strictly prohibited, regardless of a Member's medical education, credentials, or experience. The purpose of the Cancer Survivors Network is a peer to peer support service.
So, as I read it, and as it seems to be practiced, the key word is proselytize. Someone requesting thoughts and prayers, or saying their loved one has gone to meet a particular deity is acceptable. Making a statement that the only way to a cure is through the grace of Shiva is probably going to get deleted. This paragraph covers respect for others treatment decisions, so it would also mean that someone who chooses to do TCM or the Hoxsley treatment should be treated with the same degree of respect as someone stating that they are an animist.
The second part may get violated more than we care to admit. Personally, I see someone posting on seemingly every treatment question that we should consider some traditional therapy that they happen to have faith in, combined with some criticism of the current standard of care, is both proselytizing and attempting to influence medical care decisions. The same could possibly be said of those who seem to post whatever it was they just read, or whatever message they got at the latest for profit seminar they attended. Of course, that is just my opinion, and I am not a moderator on this forum.
This might explain better what I am trying to say about yoga:
Swami Sivasiva Palana writing in the January 1991 issue of Hinduism Today: "A small army of yoga missionaries . . . beautifully trained in the last 10 years, is about to set upon the Western world. They may not call themselves Hindu, but Hindu knows where yoga came from and where it goes."
What is Yoga?
According to Iyengar Yoga Resources, yoga comes from the Sanskrit word yuj meaning to yoke or unite.
In India, yoga is considered one of the six branches of classical Hindu philosophy and is referred to in ancient Indian scriptures, the Vedas. Its goal is to reach kaivalya — "ultimate freedom" — by releasing the soul from the chains of cause-and-effect [karma] which tie the person to continual reincarnation. Yoga uses physical exercises, powers of concentration and breathing techniques, as well as meditation, to achieve that end.
Father James Manjackal, a popular retreat master in India, described yoga to Catherine Maria Rhodes of the Catholic Media Coalition in this way: It is a spiritual discipline purporting to lead the soul to samadhi, the state in which the natural and divine become one.
"It is interesting to note that postures and breathing exercises, often considered to be the whole of yoga in the West, are steps three and four towards union with Brahman in the East," Father Manjackal said.
'Christian' yoga?
Many Western yoga practitioners claim yoga transcends religion and can be practiced independent of its Hindu roots — or that it can even be "Christianized," becoming, in effect, "Christian yoga."
But many experts don’t believe such a thing is possible.
"Yoga renamed is still Hindu," said Subhas R. Tiwari, a professor at the Hindu University of America, who holds a master’s degree in yoga philosophy.
Tiwari finds "Christianizing" yoga suspect, as well as wrong-headed. "This effort to extricate yoga from its Hindu mold, and cast it under another name, is far from innocent. Newly minted 'Christian yoga' is really yoga," he said.
"The simple, immutable fact is that yoga originated from the Vedic, or Hindu, culture," Tiwari added. "Its techniques were not ‘adopted’ by Hinduism, but originated from it."
"However much proponents insist that these techniques are valuable as methods, and imply no teaching contrary to Christianity," he writes, "the techniques in themselves . . . in their own context, the postures and exercises, are designed for their specific religious purpose.
"Even when they are carried out within a Christian atmosphere, the intrinsic meaning of these gestures remains intact."0
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