lymphatic drainage and peripheral neuropathy

Buckwirth said:

Have you discussed this
With your Onc?


From http://www.lymphnotes.com/article.php/id/151/

Afferent lymphatic vessels carry unfiltered lymph into the node. Here waste products, and some of the fluid, are filtered out.

In another section of the node, lymphocytes, which are specialized white blood cells, kill pathogens that may be present. This causes the swelling commonly swelling known as swollen glands.

Lymph nodes also trap cancer cells and slow the spread of the cancer until they are overwhelmed by it.

Efferent lymphatic vessels carry the filtered lymph out of the node to continue its return to the circulatory system.


As I understand this, the node traps the cancer and tries to contain it, only releasing the cancer when it has been overwhelmed (killed?).

It would seem that draining an infected node could have the effect of spreading the cancer.

I am neither a biologist nor a hematologist, but this does not feel right to me.

thanks blake
i will shoot onc an email. Good idea.

I have heard for and against on this, done some reading.
Apparently even exercise gets lymphatic system flowing.
Really not sure.

When i was getting the reflexology on my feet, maryann said
'tell me if it hurts'
i told her my feet are numb and to go for it and its unlikely i will feel anything.
I did actually feel mild pain while she worked my feet.
Pete

1acme said:

Lymph Darainage, Ion Cleanse, Cupping & Acupuncture
Hello Pete;

I had been getting massage for past few years about 4-5x a year and I always get LYMPH DRAINAGE (when I was healthy). It gets your lymph's get going and work better to removing toxins from your body. It is always like deep tissue massage, very painful , day after you will be soared as they must push in to you to reach the lymph's. Sometimes they also use massage wand made from semi-precious stone. After a "real" Lymph Drainage massage you will be soared day after, your Pee should change color and may even get diarrhea (which you did) showing you that toxins are leaving your body.

Also another great treatment to remove toxins from your body is CUPPING therapy/massage. It is not that easy to find a practitioner, but it is also great to invest in this therapy.

Another treatment I get is ION CLEANSE - you soak your feet in water and after several minutes color of water change color as toxins from your body are removed. Try it first at some clinic. It is about $35/30min, and if you like it you can get your own machine for about $150 for your family use.

You also mention that you have some issues with your feet .... may be you can try traditional chinese acupuncture.

Good luck
Helen

thanks blake , john , lori, helen
helen,

I can get the cupping going at this center, I'll ask about it. thanks for the tip about diarrhea as a possible result from the massage. I tend to think its just my poor chemo ravaged stomach protesting enough is enough. As i approach the end of my 12 cycles folfox my onc mentioned all the side effects will get more intense.

everyone,

the real point I was hoping for comment on was the possible relationship between lymphatic massage and peripheral neuropathy. its possible the most common and worst side effect most of get from folfox due to its persistence. its just my observation but my feet were almost normal after the massage and god that was a great feeling. it could be a co-incidence or the reflexology or the lymphatic drainage.

thanks for commenting and the links.

John23 said:

Lymphatic drainage and cancer

There's been an awful lot of disparaging remarks made here lately,
regarding the value of "alternative" medicine when dealing with cancer.

I find that sort of attitude less than helpful, and well into an actual
harmful direction, for those that can use the help.

Please read at the links provided concerning this topic of
"massage for lymphatic drainage":

Manual Lymphatic Drainage Massage for Cancer Patients

Standard Treatment of Lymphedema-Manual Lymphatic Drainage Massage

Lymphatic massage

Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center

Instead of arbitrarily denouncing anything that does not conform to one's
personal beliefs, one should make an honest and earnest attempt to garner
as much knowledge regarding what they are attempting to denounce.

Chemotherapy and radiation are -not- the only ways to fight cancer
successfully, and there are plenty of us out here as living proof of that.

I was finally released from hospital care March 9th after being in
since Jan 28. I have been made aware during that time, that I have
been a stage 4 colon cancer since my initial surgery in 2006.

(In 2006, one oncologist claimed I was a late 3c, the other oncologist
said a 4)

Surgery is not deemed "western medicine", "TCM", or of any
variable of health care; surgery is surgery. They removed all of
what they felt was cancer, but informed me that cancer was
throughout my body and -only chemo- will give me time to live.
The prognosis was bleak; three years, perhaps more, with chemo.
No prognosis if I did not do chemo..

I did not do chemo, nor did I do radiation. I located and used
medicinal strength imported herbs that were known to isolate and
destroy cancer cells without causing any other damage.

That..... was in 2006.

Not all alternatives are folly or "snake oil". Many of the leading
institutions are now embracing alternatives, and attempting to use
them as an adjunct to conventional western medicine practices.

There are indeed other ways to deal with cancer, but you won't
find them by denouncing the mere concept that they are there.

Better health to you.

welcome back mate, sorry you've had such a horrible time
hi john,

i appreciated your comments with regard our alternatives.

the massage links are informative, thanks,

"Cancer patients should not receive massage therapy in areas of enlarged lymph nodes or tumors since this may increase risk of spreading cancer cells." for me I guess I am NED and the massage is ok, whereas someone with active tumours the answer is no.

blake's point about cancer cells collecting in the lymph nodes and being killed there is interesting.

it might be to simplistic, but most of our tumours appear in the liver or the lungs, they were not killed in the lymphatic system.

so will the massage and its benefits strengthen the immune system and give us an edge ? I hope so.

yes this is just another straw I am cluthching at.

i really do appreciate everyones comments. please also note I am my own guinea pig and offer these results with no warantee.

the center where I am going was regard as in the top 5 in my state. given how many patients suffer from our curse, the huge number of studies from surgery, oncology and alternatives. I find our humble board the ricest source of opinion and experience.

got to play chess with the kids. bye!

thanks,

pete

LindaJS said:

I have no idea about
I have no idea about lymphatic massage but I do use reflexology massage for some numb spots on my toes - not cancer related but nerve damage from bunions (I blame high heels!) and swear by it - helps relieve cramping across my feet also.
The other thing that worked really well was Onsen in Japan. After about 5 minutes in an Onsen bath I could feel my numb spots tingling - but I have been wondering if extreme heat would be as difficult to deal with as cold for people having chemo?
Cupping is quite intense - I tried it a couple of times for muscle tension and found it worked well but I gave it up after fainting during a treatment. If you go ahead with it make it on a good day - I would hate to have it done if I was suffering nausea or feeling weak.

thanks linda
its so good that reflexology has helped your non cancer numbness. I am just grateful I have found a good quality place to my massage and that feel so good.

The onsen bath also sounds interesting.

maybe relflexology for numbness could be the key and not the lymphatic drainage, I got both at the same time. I am keen to try the cupping and will take your advice re nausea and weakness. I have both at the moment.

hugs,
pete

unknown said:

This comment has been removed by the Moderator

thanks graci, I appreciate your feedback and support
so,
my feet were like they had gloves on, I can feel pressure even light touches, but its different to before, its persistent. After a bath I dry them, I can feel pins and needles if I dry between the toes. My kids try to tickle them and now I can say "Oh stop" rather than kicjk them off instantly. I had very ticklish feet, now they barely respond.

graci, why is the nerve damage so much worse in our feet, then hands or elsewhere ? I think this is a good question, that may leads us to understanding the issues with nerve damage.

My feet still feel almost normal, have done a 90 minute walk in AM and an hour with the kids PM. Maybe slightly less normal than yesterday but its so hard to tell. I could also say no difference. if their is a difference its been very minor over the last day.

I posted about the warm water and alcohol, sometime back with regard to neuropathy. I was told to do this by my naturopathic team. I had no other comments from the board, been meaning to try it, but am worried I will start drinking again. LOL

ravaged with regard to stomach is not pain, but just cumulative chemo damage I suspect. I suspect my diarrhea is not helped by the chemo, but so many things like tumeric even may contribute to it.( thanks blake ). juicing, even the massage itself. still been taking my naturopathic pills and potions for stomach, and have had some success with good solid output. but still feel dehydrated.

getting close to finishing the oxi is a relief, I still goto cross the finish line. I wished my friends here had a better run with it. in the scheme of things we are a small sample. One onc nurse I had dinner with said, most of her paitents make it through, I mentioned our experience here. No possible explanation for the difference except we are so unique physically. its possibly also our strongest point for survival.

Was on standard 46 hour infusion 5fu fanny pack. Definitely did not swim while on it, but almost did by accident once.

I believe all my complimentary supports have helped me so far on this journey, especially this board that patiently listens to my views and comments. how much tcm or supplements or diet or exercise or meditation or hypnotheraphy or juicing or massage or positive thinking or support groups or pschologists or phsiotherapist I cannot say which one. My supports have all felt right at the time they appeared. I struggle to do them all as well, but do try them all as often as the opportunity presents itself.

I would like to think that everyday we are a step closer to better treatments, this board has more potential to help ourselves and others then we appreciate. I would love the idea that one day some major advance in our treatment, our survival will come from a post here and that it will be our job to push our onc's around the world when we have enough evidence for it.

hugs,
pete