Psa 74

Deadmansoon

Biopsy, all Gleason 9, 12 out of 12 cores positive 8 at 100% and 4 at 90%. Psa 67. Treatment, casodex for 6 weeks, 25 rounds of proton followed by brachytherapy. Results, 3 month follow up psa 74. Wishes, hoping it needs more time to work, next psa in September. 2 bone scans 3 CT and 1 MRI all clear. Thinking treatment might have failed, because I haven't seen any cases where psa didn't drop after 90 days. I'm 41 years old. Getting harder to be optimistic, but very content with treatment choices and my doctors. No regrets. 

Old Salt

It would be good to have some background

It would be good to know your earlier history. You once wrote

I have chose holistic approach only, I've seen enough drs. Psa continues to drop and feeling alot better. I know this is a very unpopular choice on this site, but I have never made my decisions based on what other people think of it, I'm doing what's best for me. Don't post anything negative, because I don't wanna hear it. I wish everyone the best of luck on they're path! 

Apparently, you decided on treatment after all, but it appears to have failed. I could be totally wrong of course, because of limited info in your current post. I do hope that we can be of some help

VascodaGama

Welcome back "Livingman"

"Livingman",
Welcome back to the forum. I am sorry if things along the last two years have not been in your favor. I wonder if you ever got a trustful clinical stage before engaging in radiation therapies. What was the PSA before starting ADT and proton? Surely if that was in the 100th then the present 74 is good. Was the PSA=67 (indicated above) the value in 2017, at the time of the holistic treatment?
We may help you with opinions but we need to know the details since your last post. What do you want to know specifically from survivors here?

Your shared info regarding the treatment protocol of Casodex plus Proton is rare. The hormonal that lead to better outcomes in radiation therapies are the agonists. Why did they use solo antiandrogens?

The image exams done so far have been all false negatives. You may have micrometastases that are hard to be detected by traditional CT scans. I recommend you to get a PET 68Ga-PSMA exam to try locating the hidden bandit. You can then draw a plan of attack with confidence.
You need the next PSA result to confirm RT failure. At that time the doctor may declare you Systemic, which by norm are cases treated with chemo therapies. Nothing wrong with this and you should be positive to the idea of continuing treatment.

Here is your story; https://csn.cancer.org/node/307160

Let us know more about symptoms or any other aspect regarding the RT side effects.

Best of lucks

VG

Chuckect

would love to hear more about holistic treatment

i'm on zytiga, prednesone, xgeva, lupron, hydrocodone, zoloft, and think about adding radium 223.. So I would love to know if the holistic approch has any benifit.  I sometimes feel like i am tired of taking all of these meds.. How long were you on the holistic regime ? I have stage 4 metistatic prostate cancer and my scans look like a black skeleton, so i am very interested in anything different.. later gater and good luck

Regulator

Chuckect said:

would love to hear more about holistic treatment

i'm on zytiga, prednesone, xgeva, lupron, hydrocodone, zoloft, and think about adding radium 223.. So I would love to know if the holistic approch has any benifit.  I sometimes feel like i am tired of taking all of these meds.. How long were you on the holistic regime ? I have stage 4 metistatic prostate cancer and my scans look like a black skeleton, so i am very interested in anything different.. later gater and good luck

Chuckect,

Chuckect,

As a recently diagnosed high-risk patient myself, I am days away from a final decision on my first-line of treatment (i.e., RP/ADT or RT), and I have just today begun initial but long overdue treatment with Casodex. However, if I have ANY regrets at all, its the misguided faith that I put into advanced imaging techniques and their potential to clarify things with respect to metastasis.

Having been told from day-1 by multiple practicioners that CT scans, bone scans, PET scans and MRIs woiuld likely prove to be very helpful in elucidating the localized or non-localized nature of my disease, and further, that ADT drugs could potentially interfere with the uptake of various tracers used in those imaging events, I mistakenly placed more value on the scans themselves than the ADT treatments, and that was a MAJOR error on my part. Like you, an array of 5-6 different imaging modalities (CT. bone, Pet, MRI, etc.), proved to be pointless exercises, and because of scheduling issues, these various scans lead to several months of unnecessary delays in beginning treatment. So, if I had any meaningful advice for newly diagnosed patients of PCa, it would be this . . . skip the CT, bone and most forms of PET scan, and get a high-quality 3T-MRI instead, then proceed with your treatment of choice. Had I done this, its safe to say that my treatment would have begun over 100-days ago, which was valuable time lost.

VascodaGama

Totally disagree

Regulator,

This post seems from someone that is desperate. I disagree with your comments. I do not think that it was a mistake for you to place more value on image exams firstly before starting a hormonal treatment. Cancer patients need to gather evidence on their status before deciding on a therapy. That is what your doctors did and they did it very well in accordance with the recommended guidelines in urology/oncology. Moreover, hormonal therapies of the type of antiandrogens you comment would work the same if they have been started today or 100 days ago. They do not kill the cancer but simply turn the cancerous cells sort of indolent. There was no valuable time lost in the way you have proceded. Be positive. You will knowk down the bandit to the canvas.

Regulator

VascodaGama said:

Totally disagree

Regulator,

This post seems from someone that is desperate. I disagree with your comments. I do not think that it was a mistake for you to place more value on image exams firstly before starting a hormonal treatment. Cancer patients need to gather evidence on their status before deciding on a therapy. That is what your doctors did and they did it very well in accordance with the recommended guidelines in urology/oncology. Moreover, hormonal therapies of the type of antiandrogens you comment would work the same if they have been started today or 100 days ago. They do not kill the cancer but simply turn the cancerous cells sort of indolent. There was no valuable time lost in the way you have proceded. Be positive. You will knowk down the bandit to the canvas.

Not "desperate" per se, but certainly frustrated

VG,

As always, I greatly appreciate your wisdom, comments and viewpoint, even when its critical of me or my own views, and you're right, I am frustrated - not "desperate" necessarily, but certainly frustrated.

I don't wish to hijack the OP's thread by opening up another unrelated conversation here, but I think a brief explanation is in order:

When I was first diagnosed, it became immediately clear that there were only going to be two principal treatment approaches available to me . . . 1) surgery followed by RT-ADT/HT or 2) RT followed by ADT/HT. It also became clear rather quickly, that even if I wanted surgery, it might not ever be available to me, based upon a variety of case-specific factors, one of which was whether the cancer was "localized" or not.

Needless to say, given my preference for surgery over RT, this prompted me to seek out (and yes, almost "insist" upon) advanced imaging techniques, in hopes that it would help better elucidate the situation (re: localization), even when some of the medical specialists didn't necessarily support such imaging. In my case, the vast majority of those "advanced" imaging tests (5 out of 6), proved to be anything BUT "advanced", and as a result, valuable time would appear to have been wasted. That was my point to the OP and other readers here, and I stand by that point.

That said, you appear to believe that 100-days is an inconsequential period of time in such instances, and I fully respect your opinion on that, but I can assure you (based upon some of their comments to me), that several of the medical professionals I have seen over that period of time, would respectfully yet promptly disagree with you on that point.

Thank you again for your many valuable contributions here.

Deadmansoon

First psa at dx was 39, had 3

First psa at dx was 39, had 3 doctors offer me nothing but hormone therapy, I refused and went with holistic. On holistic program 2 weeks in my psa dropped to 31, slowly got it to 28, after 6 months I started losing the battle and was rising every month, when it got to 67 I went to procure in OKC. They did scans and put me on 6 weeks of casodex to get swelling down before proton, after 25 treatments they waited 30 days then permanent brachytherapy.  I don't know how high psa got I'm assuming about a 100. After the 6 weeks of casodex psa was 26. 3 month check-up after brachytherapy psa is 74. I'm pretty sure it should've been alot lower but still have alot of swelling from both treatments. Seem to be feeling better and urinating better and no new symptoms, hoping 6 month follow up shows improvment. 

Regulator

Deadmansoon said:

First psa at dx was 39, had 3

First psa at dx was 39, had 3 doctors offer me nothing but hormone therapy, I refused and went with holistic. On holistic program 2 weeks in my psa dropped to 31, slowly got it to 28, after 6 months I started losing the battle and was rising every month, when it got to 67 I went to procure in OKC. They did scans and put me on 6 weeks of casodex to get swelling down before proton, after 25 treatments they waited 30 days then permanent brachytherapy.  I don't know how high psa got I'm assuming about a 100. After the 6 weeks of casodex psa was 26. 3 month check-up after brachytherapy psa is 74. I'm pretty sure it should've been alot lower but still have alot of swelling from both treatments. Seem to be feeling better and urinating better and no new symptoms, hoping 6 month follow up shows improvment. 

Its gotta be a freak anomaly

Deadmansoon,

My circumstances are somewhat similar to yours, with a high PSA (67), rapid PSA doubling time, high Gleason, etc., and I can certainly appreciate why you would be concerned about a stationary PSA value following such major treatment events. I too am now on Casodex, and in all liklihood, I'll be seeing Lupron injections and IMRT or SBRT treatments before the summer is out, so I will be watching your progress closely and wishing you the very best in the weeks ahead. Like you however, I've gotta believe that its a temporary anomaly of sorts, related solely to the timing of things. Specifically, I've gotta believe that the sheer physical 'molestation' of the gland by the radiation events (and the swelling produced by those events), is causing an agitated state and sustained production of PSA as a result. We'll all be crossing our fingers for you.

All the best! 

Grinder

hey

DMS... I tried naturopathic remedies for my prostate issues. Pomegranate, Selenium, Uva Ursi, Asparagus juice, Saw Palmetto, Marsmallow root, etc. etc. I was hoping I would hit on the right remedy that would give control back to me instead of the doctors and the antibiotics and eventually the cancer treatments.

But, despite the claims, the only benefit from naturopathic remedies is enhancement of the immune system. They do not kill cancerous mutated prostate cells... because they would have to distinguish between healthy prostate cells that are regulated by their DNA programming and the cancer prostate cells that have mutated DNA and are no longer regulated normally.

What holistic or naturopathic remedy can do that? None. Yes they can enhance your immune system which is your best initial defense, but once it is compromised and the immune system fails to curtail the cancerous growth, it no longer helps to address the cancer with further enhancements of the immune system. 

That was the bitter truth I had to realize. I would suggest your own minor PSA percentage drop was not due to the holistic approach, but more likely were slight variations in antigen release.

I think it is helpful for us to warn others  of the limitations of holistic and naturopathic remedies. Yes they can be helpful, but there are times when they give a false sense of hope when proper understanding of the Beast and the Bandit is essential, and conventional treatments must not be delayed... especially in light of the advances being made in nerve sparing RP and SBRT and other forms of radiation and treatments... at least, that was my experience with naturopathic remedies.

Deadmansoon

Been researching for a week

Been researching for a week now, and haven't found any cases of such a high psa first follow up brachytherapy. I'm convinced treatment has failed. Guess all I got left is hormone therapy, very depressing at age 41. Good luck to everyone out there, and thanks for all the advice. God bless.

Deadmansoon

Regulator said:

Its gotta be a freak anomaly

Deadmansoon,

My circumstances are somewhat similar to yours, with a high PSA (67), rapid PSA doubling time, high Gleason, etc., and I can certainly appreciate why you would be concerned about a stationary PSA value following such major treatment events. I too am now on Casodex, and in all liklihood, I'll be seeing Lupron injections and IMRT or SBRT treatments before the summer is out, so I will be watching your progress closely and wishing you the very best in the weeks ahead. Like you however, I've gotta believe that its a temporary anomaly of sorts, related solely to the timing of things. Specifically, I've gotta believe that the sheer physical 'molestation' of the gland by the radiation events (and the swelling produced by those events), is causing an agitated state and sustained production of PSA as a result. We'll all be crossing our fingers for you.

All the best! 

I know right, because if it

I know right, because if it killed cancer in prostate, it didnt spread to a psa of 74 while in treatment. Doctors give you they're 15 mins and on to the next one. I'm reaching but feel like it could be infection or imflamation. I'm wore out with all of it. Thank you for your response and I wish you the best of luck bud.

Deadmansoon

VascodaGama said:

Welcome back "Livingman"

"Livingman",
Welcome back to the forum. I am sorry if things along the last two years have not been in your favor. I wonder if you ever got a trustful clinical stage before engaging in radiation therapies. What was the PSA before starting ADT and proton? Surely if that was in the 100th then the present 74 is good. Was the PSA=67 (indicated above) the value in 2017, at the time of the holistic treatment?
We may help you with opinions but we need to know the details since your last post. What do you want to know specifically from survivors here?

Your shared info regarding the treatment protocol of Casodex plus Proton is rare. The hormonal that lead to better outcomes in radiation therapies are the agonists. Why did they use solo antiandrogens?

The image exams done so far have been all false negatives. You may have micrometastases that are hard to be detected by traditional CT scans. I recommend you to get a PET 68Ga-PSMA exam to try locating the hidden bandit. You can then draw a plan of attack with confidence.
You need the next PSA result to confirm RT failure. At that time the doctor may declare you Systemic, which by norm are cases treated with chemo therapies. Nothing wrong with this and you should be positive to the idea of continuing treatment.

Here is your story; https://csn.cancer.org/node/307160

Let us know more about symptoms or any other aspect regarding the RT side effects.

Best of lucks

VG

They said casodex was to get

They said casodex was to get rid of swelling before treatment, because I had serious urinating problems. Psa was 67 in October didn't start treatment till January 3. Casodex brought it down to 26, then treatment started. Never got a definite clincal stage, seen 6 or 7 doctors and I assume they all just guessed at it. 

Deadmansoon

Old Salt said:

It would be good to have some background

It would be good to know your earlier history. You once wrote

I have chose holistic approach only, I've seen enough drs. Psa continues to drop and feeling alot better. I know this is a very unpopular choice on this site, but I have never made my decisions based on what other people think of it, I'm doing what's best for me. Don't post anything negative, because I don't wanna hear it. I wish everyone the best of luck on they're path! 

Apparently, you decided on treatment after all, but it appears to have failed. I could be totally wrong of course, because of limited info in your current post. I do hope that we can be of some help

Thanks for your response bud.

Thanks for your response bud. I don't have all the answers, I've tried my best. With my diagnosis I'm not sure there is a right or wrong way. I don't think I ever thought cure was possible. I sincerely wish you the best!!!

Deadmansoon

Chuckect said:

would love to hear more about holistic treatment

i'm on zytiga, prednesone, xgeva, lupron, hydrocodone, zoloft, and think about adding radium 223.. So I would love to know if the holistic approch has any benifit.  I sometimes feel like i am tired of taking all of these meds.. How long were you on the holistic regime ? I have stage 4 metistatic prostate cancer and my scans look like a black skeleton, so i am very interested in anything different.. later gater and good luck

Hey bud. Holistic got me

Hey bud. Holistic got me healthier than I've ever been in my life, but cancer was still growing. I felt amazing, so they're is alot to be said for eating all natural, just don't think it kills cancer, but I don't think all the **** (treatments) do either. My two cents. Good luck buddy!

Deadmansoon

Grinder said:

hey

DMS... I tried naturopathic remedies for my prostate issues. Pomegranate, Selenium, Uva Ursi, Asparagus juice, Saw Palmetto, Marsmallow root, etc. etc. I was hoping I would hit on the right remedy that would give control back to me instead of the doctors and the antibiotics and eventually the cancer treatments.

But, despite the claims, the only benefit from naturopathic remedies is enhancement of the immune system. They do not kill cancerous mutated prostate cells... because they would have to distinguish between healthy prostate cells that are regulated by their DNA programming and the cancer prostate cells that have mutated DNA and are no longer regulated normally.

What holistic or naturopathic remedy can do that? None. Yes they can enhance your immune system which is your best initial defense, but once it is compromised and the immune system fails to curtail the cancerous growth, it no longer helps to address the cancer with further enhancements of the immune system. 

That was the bitter truth I had to realize. I would suggest your own minor PSA percentage drop was not due to the holistic approach, but more likely were slight variations in antigen release.

I think it is helpful for us to warn others  of the limitations of holistic and naturopathic remedies. Yes they can be helpful, but there are times when they give a false sense of hope when proper understanding of the Beast and the Bandit is essential, and conventional treatments must not be delayed... especially in light of the advances being made in nerve sparing RP and SBRT and other forms of radiation and treatments... at least, that was my experience with naturopathic remedies.

Well so far I had just as

Well so far I had just as much success with holistic as I've had with medical mainstream. Who knows. It's all a roll of the dice. Sometimes I think you gotta weigh quality over quantity. Just my opinion. Best of luck to you!

Old Salt

Deadmansoon said:

Been researching for a week

Been researching for a week now, and haven't found any cases of such a high psa first follow up brachytherapy. I'm convinced treatment has failed. Guess all I got left is hormone therapy, very depressing at age 41. Good luck to everyone out there, and thanks for all the advice. God bless.

We can hope

We can hope for the better, but it does look like further treatment may be necessary. Has any doctor talked to you about chemo (usually taxotere)? It's typically used once the cancer has metastasized. In this context, have you had any recent scans to see if the cancer has metastasized?

Deadmansoon

Old Salt said:

We can hope

We can hope for the better, but it does look like further treatment may be necessary. Has any doctor talked to you about chemo (usually taxotere)? It's typically used once the cancer has metastasized. In this context, have you had any recent scans to see if the cancer has metastasized?

Just bone scan ,CT, MRI, days

Just bone scan ,CT, MRI, days before proton. Next psa in September and if worse then scans. I'm not sure if I'll except any more treatment, I got alot to consider.