Cimetidine?

SandiaBuddy

I have some old research notes on cimetidine. But can't find any new research on it.  Is anyone familiar with whether it is still considered useful, or if you are using it, what is your experience?  Thanks.

ron50

I used

  Cimetadine(tagamet) for years prior to cancer. I used to to protect my gut from naprosyn sr2000. It was suggested that I go off it because it was believed to cause breast enlargement in men. I was changed over to somac and have been on it ever since. I have also been on metformin for a long time due to insulin resistence and borderline type 2 diabetes . It was believed cimetidine and metformin helped to prevent mets forming. I'm not sure how much proof they have on that theory but I have been completely cancer free for twenty years. Ron.

SandiaBuddy

ron50 said:

I used

  Cimetadine(tagamet) for years prior to cancer. I used to to protect my gut from naprosyn sr2000. It was suggested that I go off it because it was believed to cause breast enlargement in men. I was changed over to somac and have been on it ever since. I have also been on metformin for a long time due to insulin resistence and borderline type 2 diabetes . It was believed cimetidine and metformin helped to prevent mets forming. I'm not sure how much proof they have on that theory but I have been completely cancer free for twenty years. Ron.

Thanks

Thanks Ron.  The resarch in the early 2000's seemed promising, but then the drug just dropped out of sight in the cancer research.  It probably wouldn't hurt to try a quick course of it, but it would be comforting to have some more recent research.

tanstaafl

CIM is still viable

Cimetidine is on the ReDo list for further testing but that is glacially slow, long past the patent and advertising support stages.  From a pharma sales POV, it's the cheap generic, off label enemy.  Without massive sales support, things wither on the medical vine, especially with NCCN and insurer "guidelines".  Drs won't volunter it even if they've heard a little about it, many will interfere wittingly or not.  Some will prescribe it after a quick review online, if you ask.

There are really two cimetidine - CRC uses:   1. perioperative tx (+-a week to a month before and after surgery, perhaps until chemo), the easiest and most important, a no brainer for CC but almost always not done timely for lack of awareness and support;   2. long term, CA199 targeted use as an additive adjunct to daily oral 5FU.  Personally, the limited stats for #2 looked better than Folfox for stage 2-3 CC with CA199 involvement.  The Japanese didn't use radiation tx for RC and tested 5FU-cimetidine similarly.

IMO, the single most important paper is Matsumoto (2002), which gives CA19-9 and a limited set of CD15s tissue markers, CSLEX1 as an excellent companion marker.  Since any nonstandard pathology is very hard to get, CA199 serum testing is what is practically available to us.  Peak (before first treatments) and floor CA199 were the two most useful values for us but the series has been useful too.   KRAS/BRAF mutants seem to correlate pretty well with CA199 and CSLEX1 combined.

The primary information for CRC-cimetidine support these days is in the Life Extension Foundation articles about cancer, CRC and surgical preparation.     We followed what we could, added or improved what we could, and it worked out well. My stage 4 wife took 1200-1600 mg cimetidine daily for most of 5-6 years, fading out lately (too many pills); partly displaced by others like celecoxib and IV vitamin C.  I give cimetidine the primary credit for neoadjuvant success before 1st surgery for a massive immune response on some tumor sites and its antimetastatic properties for both surgeries, but we added extra things far beyond cimetidine alone. 

SandiaBuddy

tanstaafl said:

CIM is still viable

Cimetidine is on the ReDo list for further testing but that is glacially slow, long past the patent and advertising support stages.  From a pharma sales POV, it's the cheap generic, off label enemy.  Without massive sales support, things wither on the medical vine, especially with NCCN and insurer "guidelines".  Drs won't volunter it even if they've heard a little about it, many will interfere wittingly or not.  Some will prescribe it after a quick review online, if you ask.

There are really two cimetidine - CRC uses:   1. perioperative tx (+-a week to a month before and after surgery, perhaps until chemo), the easiest and most important, a no brainer for CC but almost always not done timely for lack of awareness and support;   2. long term, CA199 targeted use as an additive adjunct to daily oral 5FU.  Personally, the limited stats for #2 looked better than Folfox for stage 2-3 CC with CA199 involvement.  The Japanese didn't use radiation tx for RC and tested 5FU-cimetidine similarly.

IMO, the single most important paper is Matsumoto (2002), which gives CA19-9 and a limited set of CD15s tissue markers, CSLEX1 as an excellent companion marker.  Since any nonstandard pathology is very hard to get, CA199 serum testing is what is practically available to us.  Peak (before first treatments) and floor CA199 were the two most useful values for us but the series has been useful too.   KRAS/BRAF mutants seem to correlate pretty well with CA199 and CSLEX1 combined.

The primary information for CRC-cimetidine support these days is in the Life Extension Foundation articles about cancer, CRC and surgical preparation.     We followed what we could, added or improved what we could, and it worked out well. My stage 4 wife took 1200-1600 mg cimetidine daily for most of 5-6 years, fading out lately (too many pills); partly displaced by others like celecoxib and IV vitamin C.  I give cimetidine the primary credit for neoadjuvant success before 1st surgery for a massive immune response on some tumor sites and its antimetastatic properties for both surgeries, but we added extra things far beyond cimetidine alone. 

Thought provoking

Tanstaafl:

Thanks for your thought-provoking comments.  I wish I had known of this before my resection--it would have made sense to take the Cimetidine then, as well as when I was on the capecitabine (which converts to 5FU).  Nonetheless, it seems to be an interesting avenue to explore.  I just bought some today, 60 tablets of 200mg for $5.  A bit cheaper than the chemo drugs. . .

I did notice in your profile a mention of an increased CEA with Cimetidine, if I read that right.  How much of a bump did your wife experience?

Here are a few links to the resources you mentioned for anyone who might be looking at this issue now or in the future:

 

2002 Matsumoto article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2375187

Life extension introduction article: http://www.lifeextension.com/Magazine/2007/5/report_cimetidine/Page-01

A more recent article with a positive spin: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4268104/

 

I cannot see how trying 800 mg. a day for a while could hurt me, unless someone else has input on this.

 

I also appreciate your mention of pill fatigue, which I find very real.  I mean, in contract to chemo, these are small matters, but nonetheless, sometimes I wonder about all the supplements I am taking.  But there is new information surfacing about the "synergy" of various strategies.  Thanks again.

tanstaafl

SandiaBuddy said:

Testing

I have very little testing other than CEA (consistently low).  When I ask, they say they will only do more tests if I go to stage 4.  This is an ongoing educational experience for me.

markers

Do you have any CA199 measurements (more markers are better)?   What about aspirin, celecoxib, astralagus or PSK  ?   

 

I'm not sure about your reference and inference on my wife's CEA.

tanstaafl

SandiaBuddy said:

Thought provoking

Tanstaafl:

Thanks for your thought-provoking comments.  I wish I had known of this before my resection--it would have made sense to take the Cimetidine then, as well as when I was on the capecitabine (which converts to 5FU).  Nonetheless, it seems to be an interesting avenue to explore.  I just bought some today, 60 tablets of 200mg for $5.  A bit cheaper than the chemo drugs. . .

I did notice in your profile a mention of an increased CEA with Cimetidine, if I read that right.  How much of a bump did your wife experience?

Here are a few links to the resources you mentioned for anyone who might be looking at this issue now or in the future:

 

2002 Matsumoto article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2375187

Life extension introduction article: http://www.lifeextension.com/Magazine/2007/5/report_cimetidine/Page-01

A more recent article with a positive spin: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4268104/

 

I cannot see how trying 800 mg. a day for a while could hurt me, unless someone else has input on this.

 

I also appreciate your mention of pill fatigue, which I find very real.  I mean, in contract to chemo, these are small matters, but nonetheless, sometimes I wonder about all the supplements I am taking.  But there is new information surfacing about the "synergy" of various strategies.  Thanks again.

my view

Ultimately, I view positive changes for off label tx in terms of "liver budget".  Various off label drugs and supplements can raise SGPT/GOT etc, so I want the maximum bang for buck, some kind of therapeutic index to sort the choices.  The decision point is in terms of any targeting data (e.g. CA199, KRAS/BRAF mutants, previous response(s), lab kill data, CIM, vit C data) vs other medicants' liver load.  

The most important information is what you can develop about yourself for both targeting and measuring responses.  If you have CEA, CA199, LDH, MCV, hs CR, ESR series or even specific points pre surgery, those are valuable too.  For about 7 - 16% of the CRC population, CIM is probably by varying degrees, an identifiable negative choice (vs "0") vs 50- 66% positive under certain targetable conditions.  Targeting means there is a real selection, identifiable benefit vs reject aspect.

 

SandiaBuddy

Testing

I have very little testing other than CEA (consistently low).  When I ask, they say they will only do more tests if I go to stage 4.  This is an ongoing educational experience for me.

SandiaBuddy

tanstaafl said:

markers

Do you have any CA199 measurements (more markers are better)?   What about aspirin, celecoxib, astralagus or PSK  ?   

 

I'm not sure about your reference and inference on my wife's CEA.

Measurements

I do not have CA199 measurements.  I do take a baby aspirin.  I will have to look up astralagus and PSK.

ThomasH

I've been taking cim for the last 2 years

Hey SandiaBuddy,

I think I'm going on the same research as you, and I've been taking Cimetadine for about 2 years now. My experience is "So far so good"

SandiaBuddy

ThomasH said:

I've been taking cim for the last 2 years

Hey SandiaBuddy,

I think I'm going on the same research as you, and I've been taking Cimetadine for about 2 years now. My experience is "So far so good"

Cimetadine

My I ask what dosage you are taking, and if you have experienced any side effects?  Thanks.

traci43

cimitedine

I took 800 mg daily for about two years after my fourth surgery and had my longest cancer free period in my 10 year journey.  I eventually stopped because there was talk about a possible link to Alzheimer's.  After last year's recurrence and in the face of rising CEA I have started it up again.  I take it before bed so as not to reduce the effects of other meds/supplements.  Traci

tanstaafl

traci43 said:

cimitedine

I took 800 mg daily for about two years after my fourth surgery and had my longest cancer free period in my 10 year journey.  I eventually stopped because there was talk about a possible link to Alzheimer's.  After last year's recurrence and in the face of rising CEA I have started it up again.  I take it before bed so as not to reduce the effects of other meds/supplements.  Traci

nutri angles

Because cimetidine is an acid blocker, one has to suspect unmonitored nutritional defiiciencies show up in long use studies for Alzheimers.  On the digestive side, replacement therapy for stomach acid (betaine hydrochloride), pancreatic enzymes or both might be useful.  On the deficiency side, higher potency supplements and foods (e.g. liver) might be useful.  Then there is the question of digestion and mentation benefits with medium chain triglycerides (MCT oil, the lower mol wt coconut oil fraction) or coconut oil itself.

SandiaBuddy

Thank you

Thank you one and all for your advice.

ThomasH

SandiaBuddy said:

Cimetadine

My I ask what dosage you are taking, and if you have experienced any side effects?  Thanks.

Sorry, I was offline for a while

I currently take 400mg daily, and I balance that with complete digestive enzymes. I take a couple of those with every meal, and I have not had any adverse side effects at all. I think you already know about my big list of things I take, Cimetadine is just one of them. I think its an important one though, I certainly recommend it for sure.

SandiaBuddy

ThomasH said:

Sorry, I was offline for a while

I currently take 400mg daily, and I balance that with complete digestive enzymes. I take a couple of those with every meal, and I have not had any adverse side effects at all. I think you already know about my big list of things I take, Cimetadine is just one of them. I think its an important one though, I certainly recommend it for sure.

Supplements

Thanks, Thomas, I reviewed your supplement list, nicely presented.  Maybe when I do a review of all I am taking I can do the same.  We all need to stick together in this, and supplement information is certainly hard to find.

ThomasH

SandiaBuddy said:

Supplements

Thanks, Thomas, I reviewed your supplement list, nicely presented.  Maybe when I do a review of all I am taking I can do the same.  We all need to stick together in this, and supplement information is certainly hard to find.

I would look forward to seeing what you are doing as well

I've got a website of my own where I maintain my list and the links for the research I've found. If you find good information, would you mind if I included your finds onto my list? I've seen some of your previous information, and you have found some good stuff.

SandiaBuddy

ThomasH said:

I would look forward to seeing what you are doing as well

I've got a website of my own where I maintain my list and the links for the research I've found. If you find good information, would you mind if I included your finds onto my list? I've seen some of your previous information, and you have found some good stuff.

Sharing

The more we share the better.  I am hoping to get time to review all my research, update it, and review all I am doing.  As of now, the best I have is an old posting: https://csn.cancer.org/node/310395