What becomes of the dead prostate cells?

Stand

I will ask my urologist this question, but that's in the future. After taking radiation in what ever form I would assume the prostate and the cancer cells are dead. What becomes of this dead material? Does the body eventually absorb it? Or does the body attempt to repair it? Worse, does it putrefy?

Second question, If there are indications of cancer external to the prostate can they still administer CK(SBRT)? Do they target the external cancer as well?

Still deciding on a treatment,

Stan

VascodaGama

Trash

I think it better for you to continue your inquires in your initial thread. Your story is more fluid and the many here can focus to comment on your doubt.

Cancer are cells that behave differently from the normal ones. Rarely they can be spot by our immune system as no good unless they invade and disturb other environments (other organs). The ones that die are treated equally to the ones that have ended its life cycle, being disposed together with other trash.

 CK is also used in recurrence type of therapies using wider beams. The famous pencil-beam is known for its accurate delivery with very narrow tolerance. In any case, CK in recurrence treatments have not demonstrated to provide better outcomes than the traditional IMRT. CK is the best in hyperfractionated administration (high volume of rays in one delivery).

You doing well in investigating but you need those scans before any decision. Request your radiologist to contact a center involved in clinical trials for PET/CT scans. These are free of charge and include after service care. Here is a list that you can try to get involved;

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?term=PET%2FCT+prostate&Search=Search

Best

VG

 

Swingshiftworker

What Happens To Dead Tissue . . .

"What becomes of this dead material? Does the body eventually absorb it? Or does the body attempt to repair it? Worse, does it putrefy?"

Interesting question.  Never thought about it but here's what I found out:

http://cancercelltreatment.com/2015/07/12/what-happens-to-dead-cancer-cells-in-the-human-body/

Basically, white blood cells eat the dead cells (both cancerous and non) and make use of the component parts of those cells in the rest of the body. 

The article doesn't say but my guess is that the remainder of the prostate would probably just be a shrunken mass after the white blood cells are done consuming all of the dead cells leaving undigestible fibrous tissue and any remaining living cells of which there probably still will be some.  

 

Grinder

Cell death

I do not know if PC is like this, but all normal cells are programmed to die and be replaced. Cancer cells do not die, and therein lies the problem. They continue to reproduce other cells that do not die, hence a tumorous mass is formed. Once they metastasize, they can travel through the blood stream to dissimilar organs and continue to reproduce more cells that do not die, leading to malfunction of the host organ. So, if I am right, and someone please correct me if I am wrong, you needn't worry about dead cancerous cells because they can no longer reproduce more identical cancer cells, wherein lies their danger. It is not like a chemical disease, like Bovine Encephalitis, where an agent starts a chemical reaction that continues on regardless of cell death. And I am pretty sure it is not like a virus, that attacks a host cell and injects its DNA into the host to reproduce the virus.

But ask your doctor if that is true, or someone on here more knowledgeable about the subject.

rooster22

Grinder said:

Cell death

I do not know if PC is like this, but all normal cells are programmed to die and be replaced. Cancer cells do not die, and therein lies the problem. They continue to reproduce other cells that do not die, hence a tumorous mass is formed. Once they metastasize, they can travel through the blood stream to dissimilar organs and continue to reproduce more cells that do not die, leading to malfunction of the host organ. So, if I am right, and someone please correct me if I am wrong, you needn't worry about dead cancerous cells because they can no longer reproduce more identical cancer cells, wherein lies their danger. It is not like a chemical disease, like Bovine Encephalitis, where an agent starts a chemical reaction that continues on regardless of cell death. And I am pretty sure it is not like a virus, that attacks a host cell and injects its DNA into the host to reproduce the virus.

But ask your doctor if that is true, or someone on here more knowledgeable about the subject.

cell death

Grinder, I think some of your info is incorrect. Cancer cells do die, just like normal cells. If they did not, no one would ever be cured of cancer. My radiation oncologist told me that PCa cells are slow growing, and can live a long time, but do die. Radiation does not kill cancer cells, but damages the cell DNA, so it cannot reproduce. This is the success story of radiation therapy.

Clevelandguy

Cancer cell death

Hi,

This is from the Canadian Cancer Society "Cancer cells have a limited ability to repair damaged DNA. This makes them more sensitive to the effects of radiation than normal cells in the body.  If cancer cells are damaged at the right time and repeatedly, they cannot repair themselves and they will die."

Dave 3+4

Grinder

Misunderstood. I did not

Misunderstood. I did not imply cancer cells cannot die if they are KILLED. They are not programmed to die, or, not programmed to die in the life span of a normal cell by an internal mechanism. Your body's cells actually have a life span and die off and are replaced. The human body, if I remember, is replaced completely every seven years. Of course cancer cells die if they are killed. The problem is killing them before they metastasize and travel to other parts of the body where they continue to produce more cells that are programmed not to die and be replaced like normal cells. Or, they are not programmed to die at the RATE of a normal cell. Either way, because they do not die as a NORMAL cell, they begin to produce tumorous masses, formed by more and more reproduction of cancerous cells that do not die at the rate of a normal cell of that type. The fact that I said "dead cancerous cells" should have been an obvious indication that cancer cells can die if they are killed.

Grinder

Who is right here?

One oncologist says radiation damages the ability to reproduce but does not kill the cancer cell. The Canadian Cancer Society says the radiation damages the DNA and the cell dies since it cannot repair the radiation damage. Who is correct here? Seriously, between me, rooster, and Cleveland guy, if the authorities we trust don't even know exactly how these treatments work, how can we trust them to be informed to save our lives in cancer events? Can anybody speak authoritatively on the actual details of radiation treatment and cancer cell death? Would appreciate more input to solve this dilemma.

Grinder

After rereading rooster's post, that "cancer cells do die, otherwise how can anyone be "cured" of cancer", that is an indication to me that "curing" cancer means the cancer cells have been killed. If they died on their own, none of us would have to be cured in the first place. I would be curious about the life span of a cancer cell. They are dangerous because they are not programmed to die the way the original cells are programmed to die. I am also guessing that, since they are mutations of the original cells, they may not perform the correct functions the original cells were programmed to perform.

This is what I think is happening, someone correct me if I am wrong...

Somewhere along the line, a normal cell reproduced a mutated cell with altered DNA. That mutated cell could lay dormant, or it could activate and reproduce more identical mutated cells. Since they are mutated, they may not perform their original function, and are not programmed to die off at the regulated rate of normal cells. As they continue to reproduce more cells without regulated die off, a tumorous mass is formed, and the active cells can reproduce more cells that can spill into the bloodstream once the barriers of confinement are overwhelmed.

I think this is what is happening... Either that or I just described the latest zombie invasion on the Walking Dead. I still don't know how radiation works though between the two different MOs presented. ????

VascodaGama

Killing a PCa cell

This thread has developed from dead cells to living ones that will divide and die. My interpretation on the mechanism of cells and the means for killing them is the following;

Our life building blocks, the Human Cell, are pre-regulated (DNA) to live and die. The imprinted “instructions” (DNA) include the Mitosis and the Apoptosis in the cell’s life cycle period, which events follow a series of steps triggering other events to occur. A balanced life cycle with all its phases accomplished could represent us being healthy and perfect beings or sick. Cancerous cells are those normal cells that at some time of their life lost the ability to act as natural starting their cell division with a series of unregulated events. They also die but while living they lost the ability of stopping to divide when they come into contact with a similar cell (contact inhibition instruction). They also divide faster uncontrollable without limits, forming colonies that grow and occupy the place of other natural cells.

Apoptosis (the natural death) occurs in a series of coordinated events starting with the breakup of cell’s membrane, and ends with the nucleus condensed and disintegrated into pieces taking these a certain time to be clean out from our system. We can say that the cell is dead but the “debris” will be circulating until the macrophage cells (making part of the immune system) absorb it to be disposed.

Cells are also killed dying unnaturally due to a “provoked” cause, such as by a burst of radiation or due to an intake of chemo, or a disease, or lack of blood supply, which set up is known as Necrosis (sort of cell death not predisposed in its DNA). This starts with the swelling up of the cell that eventually bursts, releasing its contents into the tissue where it lives.

Adding a note to the above which may be more of our interest in knowing, regards how we manage to kill cancer without affecting its neighbor, another natural cell not cancerous but judged “normal”.
To such extent man has invented means, tested them and verified such potential through clinical trials. Both, radiation (RT) and chemotherapy are able in killing cancer if these manage to stop cell division while in its application/action. In other words, such treatment should catch the timing of cell’s apoptosis to certify a proper killing, not just a blow. Damaged cells not dying can later divide and copy the defects most probably becoming real cancerous cells (rare but possible) and seen later as a treatment side effect or even a cause for recurrence. This timing of treatment action is therefore important for the success. PCa life cycle is known to take approximately 6 months. This is behind the reason for long periods of administration of radiation (5 to 40 sections) and chemo (5 periodical shots). 

The work of RT or Chemo resumes in damaging the RNA or DNA that tells the cell how to copy itself in division. Radiation can damage the DNA totally indiscriminately while chemo is more affinity damaging cell’s chemistry involved in cell’s division (damage of certain mRNA protein synthesis in faster division). Though, these treatments aim cell division, they are unique of itself because while radiation affects all cells at localized tissues where rays are projected, the chemotherapy affects all those cells in the body (systemic cases) with a certain characteristic, more prevalent of such chemo drug (PCa chemo drugs affect more those cells faster dividing). Apart from the cancer, the "normal" cells most commonly affected are the ones rapidly dividing such as; the blood cells, the cells in the mouth, stomach, bowel, and the hair follicles. These patients typically experience low blood counts, mouth sores, nausea, diarrhea and hair loss. Different drugs may act differently. To such extent, different drugs may affect different mRNA and therefore causing different effects to the patient.

VG

 

Grinder

Thanks for the info... Did

Thanks for the info... Did not know about cell reproduction inhibition... Another normal cell function lost in mutation of cancer cells. You should be teaching a class to some of the professionals I have known. Good to know your posts are being archived in this forum.