Opioid addiction

foxhd

Serious topic isn't it? So anyway read my latest report. Great results. However, even at what I consider low dose opioid use, I have felt like crap for a week. A bit anxious. Maybe. More like too much coffee man. Unable to eat. Weight loss. My pre-cancer bod of 200# muscle is now about 143# of marshmellow. Could sleep all day. The list goes on.

But oh no. It is not that I take mild doses of opioids and stopped to quick. It is that I've taken low doses for a l-o-n-g time. I figured that as my pain tapered and I naturally took less oxy, it was a natural taper. But no. Too quick. So now I'll continue a taper for another week or so. I don't remember this happening before because my wife was doing my med box. And she knows better.

Anyway, I thought this might generate discussion. It is another indirect side effect we don't prepare for.

marosa

You talk I listen... or you write I read is more accurate

 even if its voiceless virtual ink here! You say you are dealing with opium withdrowel symptoms and this must be an added hurdle for you.  I understand you are facing and dealing with this in the same way you deal with all the rest; with a dose of detachment, humor and intelligence and with the help of your wife who is also a caring and tough cookie!

But sometimes I think that you are always projecting to be so strong, positive and packed with such heavy dose of humor that we might tend to think you are invencible and always in control. Its a heavy if amazingly brave and giving attitude.  You do it for you and you do it for us and its one of the reasons why you are so special.  I think of you often and send you loving, healing thoughts.

Let us hold you if you need to rest your wings a little from time to time.

mrou50

Fox

I have been worried about this since the Doc's put me on pain killers for the bone cancer, so much so that I wasn't taking the pain meds sometimes instead I would just suffer through the pain.  What my Med team told me (not all at once) I have a broken shoulder that can't be set, cancer in my the bones that hold most of my weight, in my ribs, and in my collar bone, this coupled with the rest of my cancer throughout my body can generate a great deal of pain, which I have found to be true.  So I am taking the pills for a reason and therefore there is less chance of addiction, and since I am stage IV as you are they hinted around with out coming out and saying it, given how this disease is going to finish is addiction to pain meds really that important?  This gave me something to think about it since I know and have accepted how this will end do I wan't pain or do I wan't to be comfortable, I chose comfort.

Mark

duster10

Its a legit concern

My surgery was rather recent (last 30 days), and not becoming addicted to the opioids was a major topic of discussion prior to leaving the hospital.  The nurse essentially put the fear of God into me about it.  While I have my "vices", fortunately pills arent one of them, so I only took the oxy at night, and weened myself off of it over the course of the first week, but I can see how they become very addicitive.  I caught my wife counting how many oxy pills I had left on more than one occasion to see if I was popping them to frequently.  

 

Jan4you

It is good that you brought

It is good that you brought up this topic, Fox. Glad to hear that your latest reports are improving your condition. May more goodness come your way hon!

I worked in addiction and know how opiate addiction starts, then how it affects me personally. But it was just recently that I learned what I long suspected, Pain killers=opiates, end up producing PAIN which then becomes the "trigger" (or craving in addiction terms) for more and more. Hence the cycle of abuse and addiction unknowingly begins.

Remember addiction is, as I call it, the "feel good" disease. But long before the addiciton kicks in there is the abuse. Taking an extra pill as the recommended dose is no longer working, or to "space out" from the drudgery of life's stressors. Chill pills. Then when one more pill is not working (tolerance is now increasing) you need MORE to get the affect you USED to get initially ( or as prescribed). This cycle of abuse/addiction creeps up on you. It is a scary process that suddenly takes over your life.

And getting OFF of opiates, even slowly, can be excruciatingly painful. Agitation, in ability to relax, to eat properly, then insomnia kicks in, you just cannot "turn off" your brain. Now nothing is working. The need for the drug won't let you shut off the messages of needing more. Add to that mood changes etc. Only you don't know why you feel so lousy. The prescibing doctor is not always well informed on the cycle of addiction nor how to treat the withdrawal, so what do they often do? Prescribe more meds for these new sysmptoms.

What bothers me most, is that most MDs NEVER, EVER teach us is how all the meds and treatments we use end up clogging up our brain/liver/kidney's ability to metabolize meds efficiently=cog fog. Now we have even more symptoms from the very meds needed to treat our conditions.

 Most meds eventually become less effective with long time, chronic use. Even anti-depressants for example. So as a result, we then become more depressed (in pain) as the result of the very medication we're taking to eliminate it.

NUTRITION~Our brains need to be fortified so it can then get our systems to run efficiently. We are a nation of nutritional deficiency. Then ADD a chronic disease, we become SICKER!! And the cycle of misery continues.

I was lucky to have found an amazing Nutritionist who practices evaluating our deficiencies and how to build up our systems. He uses the NRT method (nutritional response testing, like ART=autonomic response testing). He is amazing. He'll even know how "good supplements' can also overwhelm our brain/systems. He knows just the right dose for the individual and he can counter-act the side effects of most meds, without you needing to stop those meds. Amazing. He saved my life!

If you have had Radiation, chemo and powerful drugs, ask yourself, how is the side effects of all of this treatment also  affecting my bodies ability to heal itself? So we are in the dilemma of NEEDING such treatments vs how such treatments deplete out systems of the very nutrients needed to heal us.

Stepping off my soap box now.. discuss amongst yourself!

Hugs and continued healing, Jan

hardo718

Jan4you said:

It is good that you brought

It is good that you brought up this topic, Fox. Glad to hear that your latest reports are improving your condition. May more goodness come your way hon!

I worked in addiction and know how opiate addiction starts, then how it affects me personally. But it was just recently that I learned what I long suspected, Pain killers=opiates, end up producing PAIN which then becomes the "trigger" (or craving in addiction terms) for more and more. Hence the cycle of abuse and addiction unknowingly begins.

Remember addiction is, as I call it, the "feel good" disease. But long before the addiciton kicks in there is the abuse. Taking an extra pill as the recommended dose is no longer working, or to "space out" from the drudgery of life's stressors. Chill pills. Then when one more pill is not working (tolerance is now increasing) you need MORE to get the affect you USED to get initially ( or as prescribed). This cycle of abuse/addiction creeps up on you. It is a scary process that suddenly takes over your life.

And getting OFF of opiates, even slowly, can be excruciatingly painful. Agitation, in ability to relax, to eat properly, then insomnia kicks in, you just cannot "turn off" your brain. Now nothing is working. The need for the drug won't let you shut off the messages of needing more. Add to that mood changes etc. Only you don't know why you feel so lousy. The prescibing doctor is not always well informed on the cycle of addiction nor how to treat the withdrawal, so what do they often do? Prescribe more meds for these new sysmptoms.

What bothers me most, is that most MDs NEVER, EVER teach us is how all the meds and treatments we use end up clogging up our brain/liver/kidney's ability to metabolize meds efficiently=cog fog. Now we have even more symptoms from the very meds needed to treat our conditions.

 Most meds eventually become less effective with long time, chronic use. Even anti-depressants for example. So as a result, we then become more depressed (in pain) as the result of the very medication we're taking to eliminate it.

NUTRITION~Our brains need to be fortified so it can then get our systems to run efficiently. We are a nation of nutritional deficiency. Then ADD a chronic disease, we become SICKER!! And the cycle of misery continues.

I was lucky to have found an amazing Nutritionist who practices evaluating our deficiencies and how to build up our systems. He uses the NRT method (nutritional response testing, like ART=autonomic response testing). He is amazing. He'll even know how "good supplements' can also overwhelm our brain/systems. He knows just the right dose for the individual and he can counter-act the side effects of most meds, without you needing to stop those meds. Amazing. He saved my life!

If you have had Radiation, chemo and powerful drugs, ask yourself, how is the side effects of all of this treatment also  affecting my bodies ability to heal itself? So we are in the dilemma of NEEDING such treatments vs how such treatments deplete out systems of the very nutrients needed to heal us.

Stepping off my soap box now.. discuss amongst yourself!

Hugs and continued healing, Jan

So well said Jan

Thank you!  I know when my youngest brother was suffering with lung cancer (he passed in 2009 at age 50), he was in so much pain and was concerned about the addiction factor.  I've always been of the opinion, comfort first.  Personally I can't stand to see anyone suffer.  We had long discussions with doctors about withdrawal pain, decreased appetite, the fog, etc etc.  Such a vicious circle.

I pray my friends here on this forum find peace in their decisions, it's such an individual thing.  And I thank all of you for the encouragement, enlightenment, resilience & of course humor as you continue your journey so courageously.

God Bless,

Donna~

Jan4you

hardo718 said:

So well said Jan

Thank you!  I know when my youngest brother was suffering with lung cancer (he passed in 2009 at age 50), he was in so much pain and was concerned about the addiction factor.  I've always been of the opinion, comfort first.  Personally I can't stand to see anyone suffer.  We had long discussions with doctors about withdrawal pain, decreased appetite, the fog, etc etc.  Such a vicious circle.

I pray my friends here on this forum find peace in their decisions, it's such an individual thing.  And I thank all of you for the encouragement, enlightenment, resilience & of course humor as you continue your journey so courageously.

God Bless,

Donna~

So sorry for your loss, Donna

So sorry for your loss, Donna, Hardo718. Yes, it is definitely different kind of pain management when you are terminal, especially actively dying. In fact, hospice has permission to order doses way beyond what non=dying folks need. I worked in hospice too and was glad to see how well hospice RNs can regulate IV pain pumps, even in the home setting allowing the patient/family to add extra doses (boulous) to help control the pain. As the number of boulous use goes up, the RN then regulates the pump (computerized) to manage the pain needs.

Yes, I agree this is a great forum for help, information and support!

Hugs to you and yours, Jan

50 is waay too young!

foxhd

marosa said:

You talk I listen... or you write I read is more accurate

 even if its voiceless virtual ink here! You say you are dealing with opium withdrowel symptoms and this must be an added hurdle for you.  I understand you are facing and dealing with this in the same way you deal with all the rest; with a dose of detachment, humor and intelligence and with the help of your wife who is also a caring and tough cookie!

But sometimes I think that you are always projecting to be so strong, positive and packed with such heavy dose of humor that we might tend to think you are invencible and always in control. Its a heavy if amazingly brave and giving attitude.  You do it for you and you do it for us and its one of the reasons why you are so special.  I think of you often and send you loving, healing thoughts.

Let us hold you if you need to rest your wings a little from time to time.

I'm glad my wife doesn't get jealous

cuz I love you too Maria. You are right. We do this together. Thanks. There is a lot to be said for all of us because we all do this together. We are the only ones who can really understand each other. And yes, I do need these hugs and a hand now and then. I can't expect my wife to do everything. It has been very difficult for her too.

foxhd

mrou50 said:

Fox

I have been worried about this since the Doc's put me on pain killers for the bone cancer, so much so that I wasn't taking the pain meds sometimes instead I would just suffer through the pain.  What my Med team told me (not all at once) I have a broken shoulder that can't be set, cancer in my the bones that hold most of my weight, in my ribs, and in my collar bone, this coupled with the rest of my cancer throughout my body can generate a great deal of pain, which I have found to be true.  So I am taking the pills for a reason and therefore there is less chance of addiction, and since I am stage IV as you are they hinted around with out coming out and saying it, given how this disease is going to finish is addiction to pain meds really that important?  This gave me something to think about it since I know and have accepted how this will end do I wan't pain or do I wan't to be comfortable, I chose comfort.

Mark

You're right mark

My bone damage including fractures is strange. Only the active tumors make things hurt. Once radiated, the pain is gone. Compression fractures and rib fractures don't hurt much even when I golf. Previously my wife did my pill box and knew how to ween me off the pills. When I'm not doing well, addiction is meaningless. This time I stopped too quick.

foxhd

Jan4you said:

It is good that you brought

It is good that you brought up this topic, Fox. Glad to hear that your latest reports are improving your condition. May more goodness come your way hon!

I worked in addiction and know how opiate addiction starts, then how it affects me personally. But it was just recently that I learned what I long suspected, Pain killers=opiates, end up producing PAIN which then becomes the "trigger" (or craving in addiction terms) for more and more. Hence the cycle of abuse and addiction unknowingly begins.

Remember addiction is, as I call it, the "feel good" disease. But long before the addiciton kicks in there is the abuse. Taking an extra pill as the recommended dose is no longer working, or to "space out" from the drudgery of life's stressors. Chill pills. Then when one more pill is not working (tolerance is now increasing) you need MORE to get the affect you USED to get initially ( or as prescribed). This cycle of abuse/addiction creeps up on you. It is a scary process that suddenly takes over your life.

And getting OFF of opiates, even slowly, can be excruciatingly painful. Agitation, in ability to relax, to eat properly, then insomnia kicks in, you just cannot "turn off" your brain. Now nothing is working. The need for the drug won't let you shut off the messages of needing more. Add to that mood changes etc. Only you don't know why you feel so lousy. The prescibing doctor is not always well informed on the cycle of addiction nor how to treat the withdrawal, so what do they often do? Prescribe more meds for these new sysmptoms.

What bothers me most, is that most MDs NEVER, EVER teach us is how all the meds and treatments we use end up clogging up our brain/liver/kidney's ability to metabolize meds efficiently=cog fog. Now we have even more symptoms from the very meds needed to treat our conditions.

 Most meds eventually become less effective with long time, chronic use. Even anti-depressants for example. So as a result, we then become more depressed (in pain) as the result of the very medication we're taking to eliminate it.

NUTRITION~Our brains need to be fortified so it can then get our systems to run efficiently. We are a nation of nutritional deficiency. Then ADD a chronic disease, we become SICKER!! And the cycle of misery continues.

I was lucky to have found an amazing Nutritionist who practices evaluating our deficiencies and how to build up our systems. He uses the NRT method (nutritional response testing, like ART=autonomic response testing). He is amazing. He'll even know how "good supplements' can also overwhelm our brain/systems. He knows just the right dose for the individual and he can counter-act the side effects of most meds, without you needing to stop those meds. Amazing. He saved my life!

If you have had Radiation, chemo and powerful drugs, ask yourself, how is the side effects of all of this treatment also  affecting my bodies ability to heal itself? So we are in the dilemma of NEEDING such treatments vs how such treatments deplete out systems of the very nutrients needed to heal us.

Stepping off my soap box now.. discuss amongst yourself!

Hugs and continued healing, Jan

Thanks my sweet Jan

Great info. In my case I dislike the opiates. So I don't take enough for one thing. But it wasn't so much the amount. It is that I have been on them for toooooo long. BTW, I got your hug. I like it. How was mine? I'm skinny but getting strong.

foxhd

duster10 said:

Its a legit concern

My surgery was rather recent (last 30 days), and not becoming addicted to the opioids was a major topic of discussion prior to leaving the hospital.  The nurse essentially put the fear of God into me about it.  While I have my "vices", fortunately pills arent one of them, so I only took the oxy at night, and weened myself off of it over the course of the first week, but I can see how they become very addicitive.  I caught my wife counting how many oxy pills I had left on more than one occasion to see if I was popping them to frequently.  

 

duster

I harped on people for years to take their pain meds. That is what they are for. Especially for guys like you who just had surgery. But I didn't like to take them when I was young and fit like you either. I don't want this to sound condescending but I 've been battling this disease with everything they could throw at me for almost 6 years now. There is a much higher life and death challenge facing many beyond nephrectomy.  But I get stubborn too.

Footstomper

foxhd said:

Thanks my sweet Jan

Great info. In my case I dislike the opiates. So I don't take enough for one thing. But it wasn't so much the amount. It is that I have been on them for toooooo long. BTW, I got your hug. I like it. How was mine? I'm skinny but getting strong.

Haven't given it a second thought

I tried to get off the opiates as soon as I could because they had a terrible effect on my moods which my family hated. I now live on Tramadol. I fully expect to be on pain killers for the rest of my life, with necrosis (thankfully not mets) in my spine, and I'm sure appearing elsewhere, I fully expect to be taking painkillers for the foreseeable future.

foxhd

I'm afraid that's true foots

Drugs and strong pain killers for life. If I thought I could get better at this point, I'd only be kidding myself. But up until a couple weeks ago, who ever could think I'd be painfree at ANY time of my life onward would also be nuts. But it is nice to have a brief reprieve.It just seems dumb to have to take pain pills anyway. Plus I don't like not being in control.

Drivingdaisy

Jan4you said:

It is good that you brought

It is good that you brought up this topic, Fox. Glad to hear that your latest reports are improving your condition. May more goodness come your way hon!

I worked in addiction and know how opiate addiction starts, then how it affects me personally. But it was just recently that I learned what I long suspected, Pain killers=opiates, end up producing PAIN which then becomes the "trigger" (or craving in addiction terms) for more and more. Hence the cycle of abuse and addiction unknowingly begins.

Remember addiction is, as I call it, the "feel good" disease. But long before the addiciton kicks in there is the abuse. Taking an extra pill as the recommended dose is no longer working, or to "space out" from the drudgery of life's stressors. Chill pills. Then when one more pill is not working (tolerance is now increasing) you need MORE to get the affect you USED to get initially ( or as prescribed). This cycle of abuse/addiction creeps up on you. It is a scary process that suddenly takes over your life.

And getting OFF of opiates, even slowly, can be excruciatingly painful. Agitation, in ability to relax, to eat properly, then insomnia kicks in, you just cannot "turn off" your brain. Now nothing is working. The need for the drug won't let you shut off the messages of needing more. Add to that mood changes etc. Only you don't know why you feel so lousy. The prescibing doctor is not always well informed on the cycle of addiction nor how to treat the withdrawal, so what do they often do? Prescribe more meds for these new sysmptoms.

What bothers me most, is that most MDs NEVER, EVER teach us is how all the meds and treatments we use end up clogging up our brain/liver/kidney's ability to metabolize meds efficiently=cog fog. Now we have even more symptoms from the very meds needed to treat our conditions.

 Most meds eventually become less effective with long time, chronic use. Even anti-depressants for example. So as a result, we then become more depressed (in pain) as the result of the very medication we're taking to eliminate it.

NUTRITION~Our brains need to be fortified so it can then get our systems to run efficiently. We are a nation of nutritional deficiency. Then ADD a chronic disease, we become SICKER!! And the cycle of misery continues.

I was lucky to have found an amazing Nutritionist who practices evaluating our deficiencies and how to build up our systems. He uses the NRT method (nutritional response testing, like ART=autonomic response testing). He is amazing. He'll even know how "good supplements' can also overwhelm our brain/systems. He knows just the right dose for the individual and he can counter-act the side effects of most meds, without you needing to stop those meds. Amazing. He saved my life!

If you have had Radiation, chemo and powerful drugs, ask yourself, how is the side effects of all of this treatment also  affecting my bodies ability to heal itself? So we are in the dilemma of NEEDING such treatments vs how such treatments deplete out systems of the very nutrients needed to heal us.

Stepping off my soap box now.. discuss amongst yourself!

Hugs and continued healing, Jan

Excellent Advice

Hi Jan,

Im Lisa and stopped in here from the Head/Neck Forum. I am a very recent Warrior Survivor of Throat Cancer.  Stopped in to check out your Forum since My 44 yr old NephewGodchild was just dx with Kidney Cancer. It is as large as the kidney itself so gameplay, remove the entire kidney.  My Forum is fabulous with many long timers ready to give their accounts, suggest products/treatments they found worked, support, and more knowledge than any Dr I have spoken with.  True Family.  What caught my attention was your above post on Nutrients. Had the concentrated, horrifically painful, Rad\Chemo combo cocktail.  Considered the worse treatment in Cancer. So intense they put a feeding tube in since my entire mouth/Throat was burned and filled with hundreds of open painful sores.  Not even water could pass through my lips.  Gives you a real eye opener on eating.  Before Cancer dx, went in for sinus, salivary gland infection.  My new ENT had me do the entire allergy panel.  Boy another wake up call. Food allergies Dairy, soy, almond, eggs, & oj reacted off the chart.  No wonder I have felt crummy most of my life. Killing my body with foods I ate constantly. Of course also found Cancer.  I feel everyone should be tested for all allergies, especially food.  As you stated, to make your body function correct you need the Right Nutrition to make you body run healthy & efficient and as you stated.....too heal.  Lost 40 lbs & only weigh 103 lbs.  In desperate need to find a Nutritionit's like you to gain the weight with healthy nutrients, not just any calories. Also lucky kept my tastebuds, in fact intensified them so NO sugar way toooooo sweet. So now not empty calories Nutrient rich, avoid allergic foods, sugar. May have lost allot of weight but been so healthy with more energy, stamina, NO stomach issues anymore and defied the Norm for recovery of this horrible Cancer.  My Chemo Dr is using me as a test rat since he can not believe it and looking for a reason. Good nutrition, keep a daily journal, walk, lift light weights, I found many natural ways to soothe the never ending side effects.  I was a total mess, smoked, drank, ate bad, no exercise but some walking, didn't even remember to take my vitamins.  I just turned 59, 8 months out from Diagnosi, 6 months post treatment and NED throughout my body.  HPV 16+virus in Remission.  90% better than other Head/Neck Survivors .  One Day at a Time, proper Nutrition, Positivity, healthier than I have ever been.  Don't worry/stress, can't change Cancer but can hit it where it hurts and BE HAPPY.  Check out our forum, you'll understand and they could use a dose of your post. Empty calories just for weight gain OUT, Nutrition/Nutrients IN.  Sorry so long winded, just wanted to present full picture.  Hugs to ALL, Lisa. Drivingdaisy