Another famous person

Kent Cass

Uh, there's some famous people who have had H&N C. Just read about another. Uh.

kcass

jackflash22

Depressing

this is not at all reassuring for us survivors I'd rather not know of people who died but ones that survived. Modern medicine has come a long way in a short time and more people survive this dreadful cancer and other cancers.

fightec

jackflash22 said:

Depressing

this is not at all reassuring for us survivors I'd rather not know of people who died but ones that survived. Modern medicine has come a long way in a short time and more people survive this dreadful cancer and other cancers.

In response to your post, I

In response to your post, I am a 15 year survivor of esophageal cancer. My wife and I have created the Esophageal Cancer Education Foundation (ECEF) in 2003 www.fightec.org

to bring awareness of this diseae to the public and to walk the journey with patients who have this disease and their caregivers. We have  a You  

Tube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDkh7_H9BOnNASdmG4pdF0g that you should take a look at.

Take Care

Bart

Skiffin16

Some Differences

Kent,

Of all of those you listed though.., how many DOD were lifetime heavy smokers or drinkers.. I think one of the biggies these days, other than technology and research has been HPV.

I can only presume, a large portion of those DOD above weren't HPV, or had a lot of influences that go along with that fame that were contributors that potentially made them more a target than others with a less celebritory status..

BTW.., how are you doing brother...

John

denistd

list

I find this post to be very anti survivor and wish you had never put it up, new people coming on don't need to see all of those DOD's. What was your reason for doing this? also it is not factual, Elton John did not have any H & N cancer, Jack Klugman had laryngeal cancer and had surgery and lived into his 90's and did not die from the disease but from natural causes, George Harrison had lung cancer that had mets to his brain, I could go on but that's enough depressing garbage.

 

wmc

denistd said:

list

I find this post to be very anti survivor and wish you had never put it up, new people coming on don't need to see all of those DOD's. What was your reason for doing this? also it is not factual, Elton John did not have any H & N cancer, Jack Klugman had laryngeal cancer and had surgery and lived into his 90's and did not die from the disease but from natural causes, George Harrison had lung cancer that had mets to his brain, I could go on but that's enough depressing garbage.

 

I for one see this different. It means you are not alone.

Everyone may see this different. I see it as a way to let people know you are not alone, and this can effect any and everyone. Perosnaly I found it very interesting. Oh, Elton John had surgery for Throat cancer in Australia in 1986, and he also had Prostate cancer as well. George Harrison had throat cancer in 1998. So it ispretty accurate.

My father had Lung cancer which did kill him, but the cause of death is listed as Congestive heart failure. Same with my mother who stopped kidney dialysis, they called it Congestive heart failure. Also this does not try to emply they died from cancer just these persons had it. Personally I see nothing wrong with this, but that is just my opinion and your responce was yours. I think the new persons need to be told the truth, this is said to be the second worst treatment to go through, but you can beat it. Now I don't hold to much in numbers on surviving as many are all grouped as one and some are very old. Most for mine stage 3 Laryngeal would show 60.6% in general, and if contained it went up to about 70% it went way down if it had spread  and also if no primary, so odds were just for mine a little better than 70 and maybe as high as 75+%. ACS just released a new one that breakes it down much more. Instead of just Laryngeal it breaks down to the exact location, for me it is supreglottic  just above the vocal cords stage 3 is now 53% then you add contained and no HPV known primary and it will go up some but not close to 70+. Yes the new members come here very scared and know they are not alone, and they can beat it. Most important they are looking for good news, but also the truth. They will read that we lost a loved one that was a member, and we now have some who are terminal, and need our support the most. They are all looking for the truth and a kind word, is why they come here as they know that is what they will get, along with kind words of encouragement needed to fight and survive.  

Bill

wmc

Skiffin16 said:

Some Differences

Kent,

Of all of those you listed though.., how many DOD were lifetime heavy smokers or drinkers.. I think one of the biggies these days, other than technology and research has been HPV.

I can only presume, a large portion of those DOD above weren't HPV, or had a lot of influences that go along with that fame that were contributors that potentially made them more a target than others with a less celebritory status..

BTW.., how are you doing brother...

John

John what I have found through my research is...

#1 is Smoking  

#2 Heavy drinking  

#3 Is HPV +  [but is so close it just might be #2]

#4 Is Acid reflux or GURD and LPR [Lpr is not talked about much it is like GURD but it goes up higher to the back        of the throat and most never get heartburn]

#5 Is you just did and they have no reason to say why. This one bothers people the most because they wany to        know why, and there just is no answer. 

At least from what I could research and also on here, HPV would seem like #2  Mine is #1 & #4

Bill

Kent Cass

wmc said:

I for one see this different. It means you are not alone.

Everyone may see this different. I see it as a way to let people know you are not alone, and this can effect any and everyone. Perosnaly I found it very interesting. Oh, Elton John had surgery for Throat cancer in Australia in 1986, and he also had Prostate cancer as well. George Harrison had throat cancer in 1998. So it ispretty accurate.

My father had Lung cancer which did kill him, but the cause of death is listed as Congestive heart failure. Same with my mother who stopped kidney dialysis, they called it Congestive heart failure. Also this does not try to emply they died from cancer just these persons had it. Personally I see nothing wrong with this, but that is just my opinion and your responce was yours. I think the new persons need to be told the truth, this is said to be the second worst treatment to go through, but you can beat it. Now I don't hold to much in numbers on surviving as many are all grouped as one and some are very old. Most for mine stage 3 Laryngeal would show 60.6% in general, and if contained it went up to about 70% it went way down if it had spread  and also if no primary, so odds were just for mine a little better than 70 and maybe as high as 75+%. ACS just released a new one that breakes it down much more. Instead of just Laryngeal it breaks down to the exact location, for me it is supreglottic  just above the vocal cords stage 3 is now 53% then you add contained and no HPV known primary and it will go up some but not close to 70+. Yes the new members come here very scared and know they are not alone, and they can beat it. Most important they are looking for good news, but also the truth. They will read that we lost a loved one that was a member, and we now have some who are terminal, and need our support the most. They are all looking for the truth and a kind word, is why they come here as they know that is what they will get, along with kind words of encouragement needed to fight and survive.  

Bill

Apologies

To all who were offended by the list I found on the net of those who had H&N, I apologize. Just cause they had it, and are now dead, does not mean they died from it. Have asked Greta to remove this thread by flagging it, and hope she does. I just found it to be historically interesting, as I stated.

Reckon we shouldn't let anyone know with a post if any of us whose been on this forum dies, which seems to have happened several times over the past year. Newbies, and those still struggling, might get depressed by such news? Hmm...Well, that's the reality of C, folks. Ol' C's only got one thing in mind when it steps into the ring with you, and we all know what that is. That's why we endure the suffering brought by tx, during it and for years after with side-effects. Our survival rate is excellent, and many of us emerge from the tunnel of tx as better people from the experience. This is a C forum, not a facebook feel good chatroom sort of thing.

Yes, this is a Support Group forum. Keep your mind in the Positive, no matter what, during tx; do what the Drs and us on the forum advise when all the physical hits we take happen; roll up your shirtsleeves and put a mean grin on your face, whispering to Ol' C, "Come what may." Depression, to me, exhibits weakness, borderline self-pity, and the non-Positive mindset nobody should use as a crutch in getting thru it all, in my opinion. I do confess lack of experience with such as that, so I apologize to any and all who have problems with the mental toll C can take on a person.  

kcass

Ladylacy

Skiffin16 said:

Some Differences

Kent,

Of all of those you listed though.., how many DOD were lifetime heavy smokers or drinkers.. I think one of the biggies these days, other than technology and research has been HPV.

I can only presume, a large portion of those DOD above weren't HPV, or had a lot of influences that go along with that fame that were contributors that potentially made them more a target than others with a less celebritory status..

BTW.., how are you doing brother...

John

Cancer

Not everyone who has been diagnosed and lives or dies from cancer regardless of what type are heavy smokers or drinkers or drug users.   My Aunt died from esophageal cancer and never drank or smoked, my youngest son has kidney cancer and never smoked or drank.  A neighbor die of lung cancer and never smoked or drank.  We all have the gene for cancer in our bodies and something triggers it and doctors or science dont' know.  Just like doctors can't tell you how long you will live and when you will die.

While yes my husband died from cancer he was a heavy beer drinker and a pipe smoker.  Years ago he was told he had lung cancer and would die within a month, well guess what it wasn't lung cancer and he didn't die from it.  Doctors aren't always right regardless of how much training or experience they have.

No one really knows the causes for cancer and if they did, please explain why small children die from cancer.  What did they do, certainly not smoke or drink.

Ladylacy

Kent Cass said:

Apologies

To all who were offended by the list I found on the net of those who had H&N, I apologize. Just cause they had it, and are now dead, does not mean they died from it. Have asked Greta to remove this thread by flagging it, and hope she does. I just found it to be historically interesting, as I stated.

Reckon we shouldn't let anyone know with a post if any of us whose been on this forum dies, which seems to have happened several times over the past year. Newbies, and those still struggling, might get depressed by such news? Hmm...Well, that's the reality of C, folks. Ol' C's only got one thing in mind when it steps into the ring with you, and we all know what that is. That's why we endure the suffering brought by tx, during it and for years after with side-effects. Our survival rate is excellent, and many of us emerge from the tunnel of tx as better people from the experience. This is a C forum, not a facebook feel good chatroom sort of thing.

Yes, this is a Support Group forum. Keep your mind in the Positive, no matter what, during tx; do what the Drs and us on the forum advise when all the physical hits we take happen; roll up your shirtsleeves and put a mean grin on your face, whispering to Ol' C, "Come what may." Depression, to me, exhibits weakness, borderline self-pity, and the non-Positive mindset nobody should use as a crutch in getting thru it all, in my opinion. I do confess lack of experience with such as that, so I apologize to any and all who have problems with the mental toll C can take on a person.  

kcass

Apology

My personal opinion, is that you need not offer any apology.  We are all entitled to our opinions and to express them.  That is what is supposedly called "freedom of speech".  But sometimes it appears on this forum and others that only certain people can say what they want.  I found the list interesting and not offending.  Yes people do survive cancer, many do and many don't that is a fact of life.  Many don't even want people to know they have cancer and many want all the help they can get from others.

 

the_wife

Kent Cass said:

Apologies

To all who were offended by the list I found on the net of those who had H&N, I apologize. Just cause they had it, and are now dead, does not mean they died from it. Have asked Greta to remove this thread by flagging it, and hope she does. I just found it to be historically interesting, as I stated.

Reckon we shouldn't let anyone know with a post if any of us whose been on this forum dies, which seems to have happened several times over the past year. Newbies, and those still struggling, might get depressed by such news? Hmm...Well, that's the reality of C, folks. Ol' C's only got one thing in mind when it steps into the ring with you, and we all know what that is. That's why we endure the suffering brought by tx, during it and for years after with side-effects. Our survival rate is excellent, and many of us emerge from the tunnel of tx as better people from the experience. This is a C forum, not a facebook feel good chatroom sort of thing.

Yes, this is a Support Group forum. Keep your mind in the Positive, no matter what, during tx; do what the Drs and us on the forum advise when all the physical hits we take happen; roll up your shirtsleeves and put a mean grin on your face, whispering to Ol' C, "Come what may." Depression, to me, exhibits weakness, borderline self-pity, and the non-Positive mindset nobody should use as a crutch in getting thru it all, in my opinion. I do confess lack of experience with such as that, so I apologize to any and all who have problems with the mental toll C can take on a person.  

kcass

Agreed. No apologies needed.

Agreed. No apologies needed. I think how you look at "the list" depends on your persceptive - and one is, look how many people have suffered from this rare disease. The Oral Foundation also posts a list of famous people diagnosed with oral cancer http://www.oralcancerfoundation.org/people/.

As a newbie I came here for support through a difficult time and wanted to hear the reality of treatment and how to get through it. Forums are places where people express all sorts of views and it shouldn't be monitored for positive vs. negative as long as you follow the rules of the forum. I'm not offended, if I were I would just pass on the thread. 

Just wanted to comment on the mention of depression and positivity. Depression is real and not a sign of weakness. It takes a lot of strength for someone with depression to reach out for help vs. suffering alone. Positivity is one way to deal with cancer, but let's be realistic....not all of us can be upbeat and strong all the time. If we were all okay with being able to fight cancer, we wouldn't need this forum. Those suffering from depression sometimes need medications and psychotherapy, or support groups to get through it. It's a very real and serious side effect of H&N cancer. This forum is just another way to get support from others who've been there, and that should include recognizing depression, which I believe is something a lot of folks aren't mentioning here. It's tough to just put up your dukes and 'snap out of it,' especially when facing long term debilitating side effects of treatment, so let's be real about all the aspects of this disease. Even without having cancer, some people suffer from depression that is debilitating and it's not because they're not tough enough. 

Ok, I'll get down off my soapbox. Just wanted to add my two cents worth.

Thanks for letting me express my views.

swopoe

the_wife said:

Agreed. No apologies needed.

Agreed. No apologies needed. I think how you look at "the list" depends on your persceptive - and one is, look how many people have suffered from this rare disease. The Oral Foundation also posts a list of famous people diagnosed with oral cancer http://www.oralcancerfoundation.org/people/.

As a newbie I came here for support through a difficult time and wanted to hear the reality of treatment and how to get through it. Forums are places where people express all sorts of views and it shouldn't be monitored for positive vs. negative as long as you follow the rules of the forum. I'm not offended, if I were I would just pass on the thread. 

Just wanted to comment on the mention of depression and positivity. Depression is real and not a sign of weakness. It takes a lot of strength for someone with depression to reach out for help vs. suffering alone. Positivity is one way to deal with cancer, but let's be realistic....not all of us can be upbeat and strong all the time. If we were all okay with being able to fight cancer, we wouldn't need this forum. Those suffering from depression sometimes need medications and psychotherapy, or support groups to get through it. It's a very real and serious side effect of H&N cancer. This forum is just another way to get support from others who've been there, and that should include recognizing depression, which I believe is something a lot of folks aren't mentioning here. It's tough to just put up your dukes and 'snap out of it,' especially when facing long term debilitating side effects of treatment, so let's be real about all the aspects of this disease. Even without having cancer, some people suffer from depression that is debilitating and it's not because they're not tough enough. 

Ok, I'll get down off my soapbox. Just wanted to add my two cents worth.

Thanks for letting me express my views.

For my husband, it is

For my husband, it is #5....no known reason why he got tongue cancer. It kills us to not know why, and it worries us for our 3 children too.

 

i want to thank that_wife for her discussion on depression. I am the primary caregiver to my husband as well as our three kids, ages 11, almost 10 (next week!), and 6. It is very stressful. When my husband was diagnosed in October, I could not sleep or eat. I was so upset. I lost 14 lbs in a month, and I am not an obese person, so that was not good. I started taking anti anxiety medicine on advice from my doctor. It helps, but I am still having some trouble, and some days, I have panic attacks and I just cry. I know you all know how hard H&N cancer can be, but this doesn't make me weak. I know I am strong for getting through all this and keeping my family together and knowing when I needed help. That is my 2 cents.

Barbaraek

swopoe said:

For my husband, it is

For my husband, it is #5....no known reason why he got tongue cancer. It kills us to not know why, and it worries us for our 3 children too.

 

i want to thank that_wife for her discussion on depression. I am the primary caregiver to my husband as well as our three kids, ages 11, almost 10 (next week!), and 6. It is very stressful. When my husband was diagnosed in October, I could not sleep or eat. I was so upset. I lost 14 lbs in a month, and I am not an obese person, so that was not good. I started taking anti anxiety medicine on advice from my doctor. It helps, but I am still having some trouble, and some days, I have panic attacks and I just cry. I know you all know how hard H&N cancer can be, but this doesn't make me weak. I know I am strong for getting through all this and keeping my family together and knowing when I needed help. That is my 2 cents.

Well stated ladies!

for some depression is hard-wired and people struggle life long with it, for others it is situational, and for some others a combination of the two. It's important to recognize it,address it and combat it effectively ... Whether it is a disease in its own right or a symptom of another disease like cancer. It's important not to struggle alone.

Barbara

Kent Cass

Barbaraek said:

Well stated ladies!

for some depression is hard-wired and people struggle life long with it, for others it is situational, and for some others a combination of the two. It's important to recognize it,address it and combat it effectively ... Whether it is a disease in its own right or a symptom of another disease like cancer. It's important not to struggle alone.

Barbara

Ladies

Since Greta has not removed this thread...

I must confess I do have some experience with depression, in that my late-Mother did suffer from it in the wake of two nervous breakdowns, and for which she was on medicine and had the help of a Psychiatrist for decades. And, after Mom passed, my Dad had several very real anxiety attacks.  

My comment, which mentioned self-pity, does come from my own experience. When I was 13 my Mom was driving me to catch a bus for a Methodist field trip just before dawn on a November morning. The car hit a bridge, and I was badly injured. I spent from 11/2-12/22 in the Freeport, Il. hospital, then from 12/23-1/20 in the Rush hospital in Chicago; followed by stays in that hospital every two months for one or two Ops= ended-up going thru 23 Ops between the ages of 13-16(5 in Freeport and 18 in Chicago), and because my throat was the main subject of those Ops I did have a trachea tube as my air passage. And, yes, I felt sorry for myself (AKA self-pity) until I met another teenager one day in Rush, early-on in my Rush experience. He was an 80% fire victim, and his face was very much involved. I didn't have any self-pity problems after that day. No matter how bad you are doing, or feeling, there will always be someone a lot worse off than you- that's what I learned that day, and self-pity never entered my mind again, nor did I ever suffer from depression. And, yes, I still remember the sight of his face.

That said, my comment involving depression being borderline self-pity was aimed at those who only experience depression when they come down with C, because I have trouble seeing how anyone could be dealing with tx in the Positive mindset if they are feeling sorry for themselves. Self-pity is a trap/crutch that does make one feel better about themselves, but does not strike me as being of the Positive. Yes, being discouraged by the symptoms one experiences is one thing, but depression that starts with a C diagnosis is another. "Clinical depression" might be an entirely different matter than the feeling down one might experience post-C diagnosis, and that difference is what should be recognized. Going thru C tx is certainly not a "feel good" time for any of us, but it should also not be a time for us to let our mental state drag us down to the point of being depressed, or feeling sorry for oneself. As many of us have acknowledged over the years, the Positive mindset does seem to help the body thru it all. And, if anyone does find themselves feeling what they consider as being depressed, then I would encourage them to let their Drs know about it, and perhaps Xanax, or some other med, might help to solve that problem. I never meant to sound insensitive, as I well know the struggle tx and post-tx side-effects can be. It's just that a C diagnosis, to me, is a summons to find inner-strength to fight the battle with dignity, and to never let Ol' C think it's taking an unbearable toll on one while in the ring with C. Like I said, "Come what may." And, to all those in tx or newly-diagnosed: hey, you're gonna survive this thing, so get used to it.

That be my 2 cents.

kcass

the_wife

Kent Cass said:

Ladies

Since Greta has not removed this thread...

I must confess I do have some experience with depression, in that my late-Mother did suffer from it in the wake of two nervous breakdowns, and for which she was on medicine and had the help of a Psychiatrist for decades. And, after Mom passed, my Dad had several very real anxiety attacks.  

My comment, which mentioned self-pity, does come from my own experience. When I was 13 my Mom was driving me to catch a bus for a Methodist field trip just before dawn on a November morning. The car hit a bridge, and I was badly injured. I spent from 11/2-12/22 in the Freeport, Il. hospital, then from 12/23-1/20 in the Rush hospital in Chicago; followed by stays in that hospital every two months for one or two Ops= ended-up going thru 23 Ops between the ages of 13-16(5 in Freeport and 18 in Chicago), and because my throat was the main subject of those Ops I did have a trachea tube as my air passage. And, yes, I felt sorry for myself (AKA self-pity) until I met another teenager one day in Rush, early-on in my Rush experience. He was an 80% fire victim, and his face was very much involved. I didn't have any self-pity problems after that day. No matter how bad you are doing, or feeling, there will always be someone a lot worse off than you- that's what I learned that day, and self-pity never entered my mind again, nor did I ever suffer from depression. And, yes, I still remember the sight of his face.

That said, my comment involving depression being borderline self-pity was aimed at those who only experience depression when they come down with C, because I have trouble seeing how anyone could be dealing with tx in the Positive mindset if they are feeling sorry for themselves. Self-pity is a trap/crutch that does make one feel better about themselves, but does not strike me as being of the Positive. Yes, being discouraged by the symptoms one experiences is one thing, but depression that starts with a C diagnosis is another. "Clinical depression" might be an entirely different matter than the feeling down one might experience post-C diagnosis, and that difference is what should be recognized. Going thru C tx is certainly not a "feel good" time for any of us, but it should also not be a time for us to let our mental state drag us down to the point of being depressed, or feeling sorry for oneself. As many of us have acknowledged over the years, the Positive mindset does seem to help the body thru it all. And, if anyone does find themselves feeling what they consider as being depressed, then I would encourage them to let their Drs know about it, and perhaps Xanax, or some other med, might help to solve that problem. I never meant to sound insensitive, as I well know the struggle tx and post-tx side-effects can be. It's just that a C diagnosis, to me, is a summons to find inner-strength to fight the battle with dignity, and to never let Ol' C think it's taking an unbearable toll on one while in the ring with C. Like I said, "Come what may." And, to all those in tx or newly-diagnosed: hey, you're gonna survive this thing, so get used to it.

That be my 2 cents.

kcass

Positivity

Well said, Kent. I agree. There is always someone worse off. Adversity tends to make us stronger. And I agree that you have to get into a certain mindset in order to fight cancer and being positive helps immensly. I've seen how different people go through this, and the ones with a negative mindset have a really tough time. 

To share my experience, when I was being treated for breast cancer, I approached it like a job and got down to business. The harder I "worked" at it the more I felt like I was doing something active to fight. I didn't really experience depression about my cancer until afterwards....kind of like PTSD. But I had depression before cancer, so for me it's hard to tell if I'm back to normal. So, I'm left wondering.... Is this the old depression or the new depression, lol! For some reason, I hate it when people tell me "You're so strong!" No, I'm not strong at all. I just did what I had to do. Maybe that doesn't make sense, but that's how I feel.

Like with cancer, you have to be aggressive in treating depression. And yes, there are two different distinctions as Barbara pointed out. Since this is a cancer forum, it's probably safe to say posters are experiencing situational depression. But either way, it's important to discuss these things out in the open and not be ashamed to express your feelings and admit, hey I need help. Everyone must find their own version of inner strength if you are to survive. I feel that the slogan "stay positive" isn't helpful to those who are struggling and need real help, not platitudes. But I've noticed this phrase comes mostly from those who don't have cancer. 

Sheesh...this is getting long!

It's good to have this discussion. So yes, for anyone out there reading this who is struggling, I would encourage them to reach out to their doctor. We can only do so much ourselves. I say - use your team. This is a team effort, after all, or at least it's supposed to be.  

I wish you well.

 

 

Skiffin16

Ladylacy said:

Cancer

Not everyone who has been diagnosed and lives or dies from cancer regardless of what type are heavy smokers or drinkers or drug users.   My Aunt died from esophageal cancer and never drank or smoked, my youngest son has kidney cancer and never smoked or drank.  A neighbor die of lung cancer and never smoked or drank.  We all have the gene for cancer in our bodies and something triggers it and doctors or science dont' know.  Just like doctors can't tell you how long you will live and when you will die.

While yes my husband died from cancer he was a heavy beer drinker and a pipe smoker.  Years ago he was told he had lung cancer and would die within a month, well guess what it wasn't lung cancer and he didn't die from it.  Doctors aren't always right regardless of how much training or experience they have.

No one really knows the causes for cancer and if they did, please explain why small children die from cancer.  What did they do, certainly not smoke or drink.

Missed My Point..

I believe that you missed my point...

I'm well aware that many don't develope cancer from only Tobacco or Alcohol.. That is what I was referring.., and related to H&N Cancer. The list of people that Kent listed, most more than likely led lifestyles that included a lot of tobacco and alcohol.., those were the times, and crowd that many frequented..

These days, HPV is probably as much a cause as any other, as again, lifestyle changes have evolved..

Also, the post was centered around H&N cancer, not cancer in general..

Kent Cass

fightec said:

In response to your post, I

In response to your post, I am a 15 year survivor of esophageal cancer. My wife and I have created the Esophageal Cancer Education Foundation (ECEF) in 2003 www.fightec.org

to bring awareness of this diseae to the public and to walk the journey with patients who have this disease and their caregivers. We have  a You  

Tube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDkh7_H9BOnNASdmG4pdF0g that you should take a look at.

Take Care

Bart

 

 

Kent Cass

jackflash22 said:

Depressing

this is not at all reassuring for us survivors I'd rather not know of people who died but ones that survived. Modern medicine has come a long way in a short time and more people survive this dreadful cancer and other cancers.