Integrative Oncology-Effective or Not?

hurleyrr

My mother was just diagnosed with Stage 4 colon cancer.  She just went thru her first week of chemo, going thru the industry standard way of treatment.  Me and my mom went to a Integrative Oncology cancer center for a series of meeting and test with the staff.  They focus a lot on diet, wanting my mom to try and eat more of a "vegan"diet.  They say there are several foods that can help wit hte effectiveness of the chemo, and minimize the side effects.  Doesn anyone know if this is true?  When I talk to the Oncologists we are currently working with, they are very quick to dismiss this as b.s. and say they are in it for the money.  The Integrative Oncologists also recommended chrono-chemo, which they stated is more effective because it gives a higher dose of chemo while your body is at rest, which makes it more effective, and minimizes the side effects.

Has anybody ever tried any of these methods, or heard of them?  If so, have they been effective?

Any info, or advice, would be greatly appreciated.

lp1964

Dear Friend,

I cannot comment on the chrono-chemo.

The diet issue is very tricky, because of what you should eat and what you can get and keep down is sometimes two Different things. The main thing is keep yourself hydrated and eat nutritious balanced food. It is not always possible because some food gives nausea. Also when you have diarrhea you should eat bananas, rice and toast. A few people have constipation and prunes and fruits are good for that. Generally dont eat too much red meat and hard to digest raw vegetables and nuts. Not too much sweets, carbs and white flour products. Some say these "feed" the cancer, but at least can make you bloated and add to the diarrhea issue. Chicken, turkey, mild fish and tofu are good protein. Potatoes, rise, pasta are good sides.

To tell you honestly I just ate what I thought I feel like, but it was a struggle. You have this aweful taste in your mouth and you feel like a poisoned rat. pickled ginger and ginger candy took that bad taste away.

It takes a while for the chemo to work and the side effects will cover up the improvement. Improvement can be seen at your regular check up CT and blood test. If the blood count and CEA is good and the tumors are shrinking and disappearing on the CT s are a good sign.

All the best,

Laz

 

NewHere

I Am Looking Into It

Still need to do more.  Basically my Onc says there are generally certain things that can help, exercising and some other items.  Each may add a percentage point or two towards success.  Exercise is high on his hit parade, he also suggested a aspirin a day.  And he is not oppossed to adding other things, including looking into intergrative oncology, with the caveat that be careful of overdoing something (too much of a good thing) and make sure there are no contraindications with the standard chemo.  There may be things that reduce effectiveness of the chemo.

Trubrit

Call me Debbie Downer

No really, I don't want to be a defeatist, but first I would have a serious talk to your Doctor and your mum and find out just how serious the spread of her Cancer is. Then you decide just how strict a diet she should or wants to be on. 

I've known people who have led miserable lives up until their early death, because they followed such a strict diet, that did absolutely no good in giving them more time on earth, when they could have enjoyed their ice cream, cakes, cookies and the odd drink and died (somewhat) happy. 

None of us wants to die. All of us want to be the ones that 'beat Cancer', some of us will, and some of us won't. Its a hard fact of life. 

I'm all for doing as much as I care to, diet wise, to keep the Cancer at bay, but I will not deny myself treats. True, I may very well be too lax, but I will not go to my grave unhappy. Neither do I want to go thinking 'If only I had.....'. 

I think there is a fine line and we have to walk that line. You need to get as much information as you can about your mother's Cancer, and with her, decide just how much she is willing to do.

I have never heard of Chrono- Chemo so I looked it up. Interesting! (http://www.blockmd.com/blog/ask-dr-block-chronomodulated-chemotherapy)

You all have some serious dicisions to make, and I wish you all the luck in the world.

There are a good number of us here, Stage IV, who are plodding along and doing well. It is not the death sentence it used to be.

This is a great forum for information and support. I hope you continue to join us here, and keep us updated on how your mum is doing.

Blessings!

Sue - Trubrit 

 

peterz54

effective ?

Your integrative oncologist should be able to show you some data to support the chrono-chemo regime.   A google scholar search does show quite a bit in the professional literature relating chronobiology to chemotherapy.      

You might get something from this talk by Dr. Colin Champ, a young oncologist who looked into the issue of diet's influence on cancer progression

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot96y5-D_K0

I don't have the links at hand, but there is work by Dr. Valter Longo, Dr. Thomas Seyfried and Dr. Eugine Fine, which in summary suggest that lowering insulin can help inhibit cancer growth (insulin is controlled by keeping glucose under control).  There are different dietary methods but they have in common modest protein intake, no simple carbs, moderate calories, and/or short periods (a few days at a time) of very low calorie intake.  I know that all three have been involved in limited clinical trials and that clinical trials involving Dr Longo's limited fasting techniques are still under way.   The data so far suggest that fasting or a fasting mimicking diet for a few days before and during chemo helps reduce side effeccts and increase the benefit of chemotherapy.     Sometimes high quality fat is used as a nutritional substitute (DR. Seyfried's version) to make the diet easier as fats to not converted to glucose.   Dr. Champ captures alot of their work in his talk.   I find it very odd that patient's insulin is not tracked and controlled to low end of normal by oncologists as excess insulin stimulates many of the same cell signaling growth pathways  (mTOR for example) that oncologist would like to inhibit and for which newer inhibitory cancer drugs are being developed.

Specific foods like curcumin and mushrooms are being evlauted by some cancer centers.   Dr Aggarwal of MD Anderson has researched the value of curcumin (a component of tumeric).   His talk is here    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bnnm15CHRi8

As an aside, what is often left out is that conventional oncologists, especially those that blow off diet as means to augment cancer therapy, is that conventional chemo often adds very little to life expectency for the average patient and that oncology centers profit by the chemo drugs they prescribe.  Example being the expensive ($10,000 to $20,000 per treatment) angiogenesis inhibitor Avastin which adds 2 to 4 months on average after a full course.   

good luck,

Peter

 

 

 

 

 

annalexandria

peterz54 said:

effective ?

Your integrative oncologist should be able to show you some data to support the chrono-chemo regime.   A google scholar search does show quite a bit in the professional literature relating chronobiology to chemotherapy.      

You might get something from this talk by Dr. Colin Champ, a young oncologist who looked into the issue of diet's influence on cancer progression

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot96y5-D_K0

I don't have the links at hand, but there is work by Dr. Valter Longo, Dr. Thomas Seyfried and Dr. Eugine Fine, which in summary suggest that lowering insulin can help inhibit cancer growth (insulin is controlled by keeping glucose under control).  There are different dietary methods but they have in common modest protein intake, no simple carbs, moderate calories, and/or short periods (a few days at a time) of very low calorie intake.  I know that all three have been involved in limited clinical trials and that clinical trials involving Dr Longo's limited fasting techniques are still under way.   The data so far suggest that fasting or a fasting mimicking diet for a few days before and during chemo helps reduce side effeccts and increase the benefit of chemotherapy.     Sometimes high quality fat is used as a nutritional substitute (DR. Seyfried's version) to make the diet easier as fats to not converted to glucose.   Dr. Champ captures alot of their work in his talk.   I find it very odd that patient's insulin is not tracked and controlled to low end of normal by oncologists as excess insulin stimulates many of the same cell signaling growth pathways  (mTOR for example) that oncologist would like to inhibit and for which newer inhibitory cancer drugs are being developed.

Specific foods like curcumin and mushrooms are being evlauted by some cancer centers.   Dr Aggarwal of MD Anderson has researched the value of curcumin (a component of tumeric).   His talk is here    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bnnm15CHRi8

As an aside, what is often left out is that conventional oncologists, especially those that blow off diet as means to augment cancer therapy, is that conventional chemo often adds very little to life expectency for the average patient and that oncology centers profit by the chemo drugs they prescribe.  Example being the expensive ($10,000 to $20,000 per treatment) angiogenesis inhibitor Avastin which adds 2 to 4 months on average after a full course.   

good luck,

Peter

 

 

 

 

 

It's true that for-profit cancer facilities

do make a lot of money off chemotherapy, but it should be noted that places like the HMO where I was treated also recommend chemo, even though it would be to their financial benefit not to do so (I pay the same per month regardless of treatment).

As for what it adds to survivorship, you can go to this website, enter in your mom's details, and see what chemo can be expected to do for her...

https://www.adjuvantonline.com/index.jsp

tanstaafl

our experience

These doctors sound a little defensive and hurried to me.  That has not been a favorable dr situation for us.  You want to find out and gather as much data as possible. The better prepared you are to discuss technical details can yield extra opportunities and big dividends, both within and outside conventional medicine.  Did they just do a CT scan, or initial PET/CT too?   Here, initial CEA, CA19-9, and blood values can help tell about type of CRC and severity.  

It can still be highly useful to get more baseline biomarkers and blood tests done, right before the next chemo round, but the baseline quality will diminish with each treatment.  We have found it quickest and most useful to order extra blood tests ourselves, and pay cash for them if necessary.  Some nonstandard tests can be argued for insurance if they are elevated or immediately useful.  For us, the extra blood tests are literal lifesavers and enable us to steer around boobytraps and obstacles.  

Stuck in standard practices loses important opportunities for molecular profiling and long term monitoring.  It would have been best to get them before any treatment.  You might already have CEA, LDH, CRP or hsCRP, quantitative d-dimer, maybe not.  You probably don't have CA19-9, AFP, ESR, CA125, CA72-4 and 25 hydroxy vitamin D. Baselines before and after treatments (before/ after surgery and chemo) are useful to evaluate treatments and set up better monitoring for those willing and able.  

I would suggest developing several totally independent second opinions about whether surgery (specialized surgeons and cancer center doctors) could become possible and/or whether other versions of chemo might improve longevity or NED.  Assuming folfox, the number of Folfox treatments affects quality of life, if surgery and alternate chemo series can shorten oxilaplatin treatments.

Chrono-chemo is relatively new and less tested. Especially with experimental treatments, more data are crucial.

I wouldn't exactly agree about "vegan", although we favor more cruciferous and colored, non starchy vegetables, along with fruit extracts, to avoid the sugar/carb load.  Liver products with naural folate are high on our list to reduce chemo side effects.  Eliminating folic acid in "enriched" flour products and multivitamins was helpful to avoid chemo side effects.    

Oncologists we are currently working with, they are very quick to dismiss this as b.s. and say they are in it for the money. 

Dismissive, closed minded doctors typically know little or nothing useful about complementary, alternative or integrative medicine.  I view it as a serious downcheck on their overall competence and value even though I do carefully separate different doctors' skill sets.  Critical assessment of all treatments, providers, information and proposals is crucial.     

Easyflip

Quick

to dismiss something as B.S. is not the kind of doctor I would want. World renown cancer centers have integrative oncology departments, it's not outlandish voo doo anymore. You and your mother have to find your comfort zone with your treatments, I think your doctors are a little arrogant, that's all.

Easyflip/Richard