Costs of Conventional vs. Alternative Therapies
Comments
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Thanks for the reply, Ren...renw said:There are no official stats
There are no official stats that I was able to get, but pete being an exception rathar than the rule bothered me so I asked more questions. I was told that pete's case is by far not unique and the immunologist has seen many similar results. Dendritic cell therapy alone, I was told has a 30% responce rate. Chemo has a responce rate of 70-90%, so the stats are not great. I have also been told that pre-treatment with removab increases the chances as the triclonal antibody binds to the cancer cells exposing them to the immune system. I see the dendritic vaccine as another piece in the puzzle, but I am backing it up with at least 5 other treatments, all diligently researched.
I know you've done the research and I admire you for it. If I was in your position, I'd be doing much the same, despite the lack of hard numbers. There are so many studies done showing the efficacy rate of chemo. For better or worse, they are what they are, and one can decide whether it's worth the hit to the system to try the various chemos, either to buy time or to get to the point where one can have surgery. I just wish there was something similar for these alternative treatments. I wonder if the clinics themselves have published anything?
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Pete…….pete43lost_at_sea said:my oncologist only offered palliative
my way represents the only potential way to recover from inoperable diverse peritoneal, liver and lung mets.
I hope my way works, because existing therapies don't offer hope. Thats why I hope!
You know well, that I feel the way you do about “western medicine”, and how I advocate using valid alternatives along with, or alone, in our fight against cancer. I trust in TCM herbal treatments, only because I have experience with it.
That aside…. I am posting this comment under yours, since I don’t wish to start a fight with a “former friend's post”, and my comment is generic enough that it should not insult you, or the route your decided to take.
So….. Here goes:
______________________________
For the Enquiring minds:
Avastin: “Chemo or not Chemo”? (that is the question)
From the horse’s mouth: http://www.avastin.com/patient/gbm/about/differences
Likewise, the answer for Erbitux (Cetuximab) is……..
Here: http://www.andygaya.com/chemotherapy/chemotherapy-erbitux.html
Both medications have –not- been tested for carcinogenic properties with animals or humans, since that is not one of the required tests for marketing the substances.
If what one is using, is working in the fight against cancer, that is all that really counts.
The good must be weighed against the bad in all cases; we all too often neglect to do in-depth research, and just as often neglect to pay attention to it. We should know in advance, if the side effects or long-term damage is worse than problem the medication was to help resolve.
(I am as guilty of that, as anyone else. I recently had Pneumonia and had been prescribed “Z-Pak”. I knew in advance, all of the side effects, long-term side effects, and possible permanent side effects. I didn’t listen to my instincts, and took the antibiotic anyway. I suffered nearly all the side effects initially, and am now seeing what I hope will not be the permanent ones. The manufacturer of “Z-Pak” now states that there have been more hazards noted from recent “aftermarket reports”. More simply? Either they marketed the antibiotic without fully testing it, or they knew about the more dangerous side effects and simply did not report it. My physician isn’t sure it resolved my pneumonia, but a second treatment of the same antibiotic is the normal route the manufacturer suggests)
In my opinion?
The decision of what route to take to resolve our problem with cancer is an individual decision, as well as it should be. But educating ourselves with published data and arming ourselves with enough of that published data to make a choice, isn’t always good enough……….
We should always listen to our inner being; our basic instinct for survival. It is that basic intuition that all of life uses to remain alive against all odds. If what one is about to do “doesn’t feel like the right thing to do”, perhaps that inner feeling is what should be listened to. Too many of us listen to those around us, rather than listen to what was given to us at birth, for our own survival.
“Trust thyself”.
My hopes for better health,
John
(Be well, Pete. We’re –all- pulling for you, whether you believe it or not)
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We need a safe haven.....support, kindness and respect....devotion10 said:Pete
I have a very ill husband and you just wrote a nasty message to me that I think is out-of-line. You need to reread my post. I wrote that I supported everyone, including your right to seek treatment that makes sense to you.
Pete, I find you a very disagreeable person and I do not wish to have any communication with you. The sheep comments are just one of many comments that you have made that are spiteful and hateful. Most of the individuals on this board do not realize the mean-spirited things that you have said on your blog or other boards about the people here on CSN who use conventional therapy, or even other alternative therapies than what you have chosen.
I come to this board to voice support, encourage kindness, and promote respect and I also come here to get support, kindness, and respect -- that is what I mean by creating a safe place for everyone.
Do not try to intimidate me Pete and absolutely do not make it seem as if I have not been supportive of alternative treatments.
With all due respect, please leave me alone and kindly do not write to me. Pete, my husband is dying ... do I really need a person like you getting testy with me?
No.
I do think about you and your situation...you offer such wonderful support and caring to others. You have good ideas for topics and are a wealth of knowledge to those of us with questions. Maybe now we need to think of and support you....so sorry it is such a hard time for you and your husband....thinking of you~Ann
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Oops.renw said:There are no official stats
There are no official stats that I was able to get, but pete being an exception rathar than the rule bothered me so I asked more questions. I was told that pete's case is by far not unique and the immunologist has seen many similar results. Dendritic cell therapy alone, I was told has a 30% responce rate. Chemo has a responce rate of 70-90%, so the stats are not great. I have also been told that pre-treatment with removab increases the chances as the triclonal antibody binds to the cancer cells exposing them to the immune system. I see the dendritic vaccine as another piece in the puzzle, but I am backing it up with at least 5 other treatments, all diligently researched.
dup
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"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is"John23 said:Pete…….
You know well, that I feel the way you do about “western medicine”, and how I advocate using valid alternatives along with, or alone, in our fight against cancer. I trust in TCM herbal treatments, only because I have experience with it.
That aside…. I am posting this comment under yours, since I don’t wish to start a fight with a “former friend's post”, and my comment is generic enough that it should not insult you, or the route your decided to take.
So….. Here goes:
______________________________
For the Enquiring minds:
Avastin: “Chemo or not Chemo”? (that is the question)
From the horse’s mouth: http://www.avastin.com/patient/gbm/about/differences
Likewise, the answer for Erbitux (Cetuximab) is……..
Here: http://www.andygaya.com/chemotherapy/chemotherapy-erbitux.html
Both medications have –not- been tested for carcinogenic properties with animals or humans, since that is not one of the required tests for marketing the substances.
If what one is using, is working in the fight against cancer, that is all that really counts.
The good must be weighed against the bad in all cases; we all too often neglect to do in-depth research, and just as often neglect to pay attention to it. We should know in advance, if the side effects or long-term damage is worse than problem the medication was to help resolve.
(I am as guilty of that, as anyone else. I recently had Pneumonia and had been prescribed “Z-Pak”. I knew in advance, all of the side effects, long-term side effects, and possible permanent side effects. I didn’t listen to my instincts, and took the antibiotic anyway. I suffered nearly all the side effects initially, and am now seeing what I hope will not be the permanent ones. The manufacturer of “Z-Pak” now states that there have been more hazards noted from recent “aftermarket reports”. More simply? Either they marketed the antibiotic without fully testing it, or they knew about the more dangerous side effects and simply did not report it. My physician isn’t sure it resolved my pneumonia, but a second treatment of the same antibiotic is the normal route the manufacturer suggests)
In my opinion?
The decision of what route to take to resolve our problem with cancer is an individual decision, as well as it should be. But educating ourselves with published data and arming ourselves with enough of that published data to make a choice, isn’t always good enough……….
We should always listen to our inner being; our basic instinct for survival. It is that basic intuition that all of life uses to remain alive against all odds. If what one is about to do “doesn’t feel like the right thing to do”, perhaps that inner feeling is what should be listened to. Too many of us listen to those around us, rather than listen to what was given to us at birth, for our own survival.
“Trust thyself”.
My hopes for better health,
John
(Be well, Pete. We’re –all- pulling for you, whether you believe it or not)
There are countless definitions for the word chemotherapy. I consider what I've been on as Chemo-Lite but they are chemicals being used as part of my therapy. Are they the most toxic chemicals out there? So far they don't appear to be.
Noun:The treatment of disease, esp. cancer, by the use of chemical substances.
John, I never expected you to question whether Avastin was chemo or not :-) I will say that I am very glad to see you including it the list of possibilities as of late.
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Avastin is a biologicalPhillieG said:Hope
Nine years ago surgery wasn't an option for me* due to large tumors in my liver. I went on Avastin for 5 months (it would have been 6 months but it was approved 1 month after my DX) and it shrunk my tumors and gave me a safe margin for the resection.
One can argue (and no doubt will) whether Avastin is chemo or traditional medicine or not. I have no doubt that if I had been in a position where tradition medicine wouldn't work for me* that I too would have sought out other treatment options.
Hopefully we all can find treatments that help each of us succeed or life a quality life but to lump everyone & everything together like it's all the same makes little, if any, sense*.
*just trying to give examples of how we all resond differently.
I want to believe that people often don't really read what they're about to post.Avastin is a biological treatment, a monclonal antibody, so yes it is not a chemo agent.
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Chemo has very high responseannalexandria said:Thanks for the reply, Ren...
I know you've done the research and I admire you for it. If I was in your position, I'd be doing much the same, despite the lack of hard numbers. There are so many studies done showing the efficacy rate of chemo. For better or worse, they are what they are, and one can decide whether it's worth the hit to the system to try the various chemos, either to buy time or to get to the point where one can have surgery. I just wish there was something similar for these alternative treatments. I wonder if the clinics themselves have published anything?
Chemo has very high response rates. I was told 90% by one oncologist, 70% by another. Which ever, its a very high percentage.The problem with chemo is that it has a limited use by date. Cancer cells are very good at mutating, and eventually first line, then second line chemo will fail. Radiation likewise stops being effective after time as the cancer expresses additional genes to help it repair radiation induced DNA damage. They say that what does not kill you makes you stronger, and that is doubly true for cancer. Chemo destroys your imune system, and at the same time makes the cancer stronger. A bad combination.
The best scenario is a short cycle of chemotheraoy to hopefully shrink tumours then surgery. I achieved stable disease with chemo, but no shrinkage. Stable disease is missleading btw. I had tumour growth, but if it is below 25% they class it as stable. I could continue with chemo and gain maybe another 12 months before my cancer builds up resistance, but then it may be too late to try something out of the box. Either way it was a hard decision as if the alt treatments don't work, I have been told I have 2 months at best.
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2 mosrenw said:Chemo has very high response
Chemo has very high response rates. I was told 90% by one oncologist, 70% by another. Which ever, its a very high percentage.The problem with chemo is that it has a limited use by date. Cancer cells are very good at mutating, and eventually first line, then second line chemo will fail. Radiation likewise stops being effective after time as the cancer expresses additional genes to help it repair radiation induced DNA damage. They say that what does not kill you makes you stronger, and that is doubly true for cancer. Chemo destroys your imune system, and at the same time makes the cancer stronger. A bad combination.
The best scenario is a short cycle of chemotheraoy to hopefully shrink tumours then surgery. I achieved stable disease with chemo, but no shrinkage. Stable disease is missleading btw. I had tumour growth, but if it is below 25% they class it as stable. I could continue with chemo and gain maybe another 12 months before my cancer builds up resistance, but then it may be too late to try something out of the box. Either way it was a hard decision as if the alt treatments don't work, I have been told I have 2 months at best.
Ren - I hope you don't have just two months, and that you have many more, and that all your research and effort will pay off. Good luck with your treatments
all the best
Karin
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Each Case is Differentrenw said:stage 4 five years free? I'll
stage 4 five years free? I'll bet the farm that such survivors had surgery to remove the cancer, colorectomy, liver resection etc. And yes I will see #7, #8 and #9 this month, all specialising in immuno based therapies. This will be interesting to compare.
More than one way to deal with cancer? yes there are two ways. You either cut it out, or have your immune system clear it.
I was under the impression that it was cut out but I do realize that's not always the case. Everyone's different.
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This has turned out to be a valuable discussion after all ...
even with a few rough spots. Perhaps it has strayed from my original thoughts, but so much wonderful information is being shared. This board gets criticized for not being open-minded ... but, I have never felt that way. I am always heartened by the kindness of the vast majority of our members. When I come here I sense the courage and generosity of so many who stop their lives for a moment and open up that computer, or tablet, or phone and reach out to others. Touching, isn't it when you think about it ... my appreciation to those who have kindly responded to me through the years and to each other. Best ~ Cynthia
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Yeah...Right...devotion10 said:This has turned out to be a valuable discussion after all ...
even with a few rough spots. Perhaps it has strayed from my original thoughts, but so much wonderful information is being shared. This board gets criticized for not being open-minded ... but, I have never felt that way. I am always heartened by the kindness of the vast majority of our members. When I come here I sense the courage and generosity of so many who stop their lives for a moment and open up that computer, or tablet, or phone and reach out to others. Touching, isn't it when you think about it ... my appreciation to those who have kindly responded to me through the years and to each other. Best ~ Cynthia
If I get booted off it's YOUR fault!
:-)0 -
LOL You did it ... oh my!PhillieG said:Yeah...Right...
If I get booted off it's YOUR fault!
:-)and right after my sweet post ... well, Mr. Phil I will be thinking of some clever revenge when you least expect it ...
Let's see how long it lasts. To everyone reading this ... there is a secret message in Phil's icon image. Now, don't be offended, we all know he is a bit of a jokester. Happy Monday everyone! ~ Cynthia
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Hahaha...devotion10 said:LOL You did it ... oh my!
and right after my sweet post ... well, Mr. Phil I will be thinking of some clever revenge when you least expect it ...
Let's see how long it lasts. To everyone reading this ... there is a secret message in Phil's icon image. Now, don't be offended, we all know he is a bit of a jokester. Happy Monday everyone! ~ Cynthia
that made my day! Thanks, Phil.
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