Another view of the evil "Free" healthcare

JimboC

William,

First of all, I want to say that I mean no disrespect to either Chantal, Bill or Loretta. On here, I've seen many jabs at the "Free" systems and the coming "Obamacare" as it's called. I've refrained from replying in the name of peace. I only interject in an attempt to share another side that you may not be considering. If you think free access to healthcare is bad, try no access.

That is the reality I am facing now. Either due to persistent or recurrent disease, I am back in the fight. I have exhausted all my Sick, Vacation and Short Term Disability with my first battle. During that time, I had amazing insurance. Actually considered a premium plan under the new health care law. On Long Term Disability, I am required to pay the COBRA rate for health care coverage. For my plan, that is 1700 per month.

Let me add, early on, my wife and I chose for her to stay home and raise our children. A decision that was great because we have two amazing young adults now. Down side of that, no secondary insurance so it falls to me. She is scrambling to try to find something and is taking a short term class next month to get a health care technician diploma but that only works if she can find something.

As an EC patient, I qualified for Social Security at the tune of now 1800 per month. Now Medicare take and additional 24 months from the day you draw your first check. My first one will come this month. If you do the math, after the six months of Long Term Disability runs out (which goes quick), as the sole provider for the family, we will be living on 100$ per month which makes paying any bills next to impossible.

Well, what about welfare or Medicaid? Shoot, how about SSI? They all get coverage immediately, right? Well, at 1800/month for a family of 2 (children are adults), I will draw too much to qualify.

Last option that others have suggested is to accept the loss of insurance and just let em bill me. Many providers will not do that. My uncle has lung cancer. He went for a PET/CT one day and was told that he needed to provide his 400 co-pay up front. He couldn't afford it and was TURNED AWAY!!! And he had insurance, it was just a co-pay. Many providers are now installing systems that determine the co-pay up front of procedures and requiring it in advance. You might say "They are required to treat you" and to that, I'd reply to read the wording of the law. They are required to stabilize you in an emergency situation. Once you are stabilized, treatment is no longer required.

This is my reality. My hope is that my six months of LTD remaining will cover me if/when I have to undergo my second surgery. If that doesn't happen or if it is my fate to fall to this disease, I must be able to work up until I die. I accept my fate either way. I'm afraid to take off because I do feel so good that I fear that I will outlast my LTD and face the reality of living on 100$/month.

I could dip into the savings, right? Oh, I forgot that I exhausted that during my first battle. I am 43 years old. I lived a good life and provided well for my family. By our income, we are comfortably middle class. I paid a LOT of taxes and never complained because we had been so blessed and I expected the safety net that I believed was in place would apply to me if I ever needed it. I can tell you, it isn't. Consider this, I did what I was supposed to. I worked hard every day, advanced my career, took care of my family and tucked some money back. The only thing I did wrong was get sick.

It's easy to poke fault at a system when you have access to an alternative. For some, that's their only hope. As for public housing... In January of 1990, I was laid off. My wife and I were newly married and had just had our first child. We had no family to take us in as we couldn't pay the rent and became homeless as a result. We ended up in public housing on "Welfare" and "Food Stamps". I ended up going to college and getting a great job and living a decent life as a result of that help I received. I am not one bit ashamed of it because of my contributions to society since. If it hadn't been for public housing and assistance in general, that young family may not have made it past January of 1990. Because of that experience, I know that this country can do GREAT things. Not everyone in these situations are drug addicts or bad people.

I for one, PRAY every day that the universal health care will come before things get bad for me. I'd at least like to be able to have some pain medicine as I face my end.

Again, my hope is not to inflame but to inform. Sometimes we can't understand each other's situation unless we know it.

MomhasStage4EC

I live in the US and I can
I live in the US and I can see how both sides would be rough. There is also the third side, the side where you have health insurance but it only covers 80%. Sounds great! Well not exactly because you have insurance they will do everything and no generics seemed to be involved. So at the end of 2 months in the hospital 2 weeks in a nursing home and 2 weeks of home and hospice care....how much do you think 20% of that bill is? About $200,000 to $300,000. Now you will say no big deal when that person dies their debt dies with them. False. If you are married, your spouse owes that money. If you have an estate(house, cars, savings, retirement, life insurance) The executor of that estate owes thats money. Many spouses claim bankruptcy and that works well. Unless you already claimed bankruptcy from a long hard battle with your spouses illness. It isnt easy to be a caregiver and work. Its actually almost impossible. I can see how there could be a fourth and a fifth side of things really easy. My mother died in September of 2011 and by November I was being sued by many to file an estate for her. So right before Christmas after paying for my mothers extra needs, driving many hours to different hospitals and costing thousands in gas alone and then a funeral I had negative money. So I had to sell anything valuable I had to pay for a lawyer because all this jerks are sueing me. Not the hospitals, that bill still hasnt come, they are still calculating that bill. I feel for all your situations. I dont wish any of it on anyone, ever. I for one I hope I die in a car crash or have a heart attack. I dont ever want to see my children go through this.

Daisylin

MomhasStage4EC said:

I live in the US and I can
I live in the US and I can see how both sides would be rough. There is also the third side, the side where you have health insurance but it only covers 80%. Sounds great! Well not exactly because you have insurance they will do everything and no generics seemed to be involved. So at the end of 2 months in the hospital 2 weeks in a nursing home and 2 weeks of home and hospice care....how much do you think 20% of that bill is? About $200,000 to $300,000. Now you will say no big deal when that person dies their debt dies with them. False. If you are married, your spouse owes that money. If you have an estate(house, cars, savings, retirement, life insurance) The executor of that estate owes thats money. Many spouses claim bankruptcy and that works well. Unless you already claimed bankruptcy from a long hard battle with your spouses illness. It isnt easy to be a caregiver and work. Its actually almost impossible. I can see how there could be a fourth and a fifth side of things really easy. My mother died in September of 2011 and by November I was being sued by many to file an estate for her. So right before Christmas after paying for my mothers extra needs, driving many hours to different hospitals and costing thousands in gas alone and then a funeral I had negative money. So I had to sell anything valuable I had to pay for a lawyer because all this jerks are sueing me. Not the hospitals, that bill still hasnt come, they are still calculating that bill. I feel for all your situations. I dont wish any of it on anyone, ever. I for one I hope I die in a car crash or have a heart attack. I dont ever want to see my children go through this.

Jim,
Absolutely no disrespect taken from your post. In fact, I deserve a slap for my ingratitude for everything that has been handed to me on a silver platter. I easily say that I would have sold my home and all that I hold dear to have had Lee better cared for, but in reality, stage iv is stage iv, and although his life was shortened and he suffered more than he should have, his death was inevitable. I'm very thankful that my finances are intact, I have a roof over my head and food in my belly. My anger is more towards specific doctors, not the system. Our primary oc seemed to view me as 'the one with too many questions', and had no patience for my second guessing him at every turn. But, I've said it all before, and this is not about me.... I had no intention of firing up this debate when I posted to a fellow Canadian, and I do apologize to all of you that I may have offended with my remarks.

I am so very sorry for what you are going through, and I hope there is some solution to your dilemma. Like so many of us, I watched the documentary Sicko, and was shocked and horrified at the American medical system, and watching people have to choose which finger to have re-attached, and become homeless, and all the other atrocities that documentary showed. This would never happen in Canada. You may have to sit in the emergency room for 16 hours holding your chopped off hand in your purse, but they will do their best to sew it back on, free..... eventually! I don't mean to make light of anything here, but I'm just saying that before all this came about, I had some knowledge of how lucky I am to be Canadian. But, of course, it's easy to sit snuggled on the couch and say "oh, those poor people" and have no clue what it's like to be under such horrible financial strain. We get our our cheque books and write our annual donation to whatever our favourite charity is, but do we really understand what 'those' people are going through? NO we don't. And until we find ourselves in their shoes, we never will.

I don't know what to say to you, I feel so bad for your situation, and the sense of despair that your post has. I have come to see you all as my dear friends, and I hate to see this additional burden placed on you. You certainly don't need this worry, on top of trying to take care of your health.

Be well,
Chantal

JReed

Daisylin said:

Jim,
Absolutely no disrespect taken from your post. In fact, I deserve a slap for my ingratitude for everything that has been handed to me on a silver platter. I easily say that I would have sold my home and all that I hold dear to have had Lee better cared for, but in reality, stage iv is stage iv, and although his life was shortened and he suffered more than he should have, his death was inevitable. I'm very thankful that my finances are intact, I have a roof over my head and food in my belly. My anger is more towards specific doctors, not the system. Our primary oc seemed to view me as 'the one with too many questions', and had no patience for my second guessing him at every turn. But, I've said it all before, and this is not about me.... I had no intention of firing up this debate when I posted to a fellow Canadian, and I do apologize to all of you that I may have offended with my remarks.

I am so very sorry for what you are going through, and I hope there is some solution to your dilemma. Like so many of us, I watched the documentary Sicko, and was shocked and horrified at the American medical system, and watching people have to choose which finger to have re-attached, and become homeless, and all the other atrocities that documentary showed. This would never happen in Canada. You may have to sit in the emergency room for 16 hours holding your chopped off hand in your purse, but they will do their best to sew it back on, free..... eventually! I don't mean to make light of anything here, but I'm just saying that before all this came about, I had some knowledge of how lucky I am to be Canadian. But, of course, it's easy to sit snuggled on the couch and say "oh, those poor people" and have no clue what it's like to be under such horrible financial strain. We get our our cheque books and write our annual donation to whatever our favourite charity is, but do we really understand what 'those' people are going through? NO we don't. And until we find ourselves in their shoes, we never will.

I don't know what to say to you, I feel so bad for your situation, and the sense of despair that your post has. I have come to see you all as my dear friends, and I hate to see this additional burden placed on you. You certainly don't need this worry, on top of trying to take care of your health.

Be well,
Chantal

The cost of health care
What great views each of you presents. It does give us pause to see all sides of the cost of healthcare.

I don't know how our situation will turn out. We do have insurance through my employer, but we have concerns about our co-pay and what the dollar cost will be. At this point, I don't care what it costs as long as Don gets rid of the freakin cancer - I've always told him that as long as I'm with him, I can live in a cardboard box and I sincerely mean that.

I personally like these issues being brought up here - we all think about them and those of you that have posted on this topic bring up such great insights to this ongoing debate.

The more we know about an issue - the more we can contribute toward a solution or better way to do things. You all rock on!

Judy

jgwright

MomhasStage4EC said:

I live in the US and I can
I live in the US and I can see how both sides would be rough. There is also the third side, the side where you have health insurance but it only covers 80%. Sounds great! Well not exactly because you have insurance they will do everything and no generics seemed to be involved. So at the end of 2 months in the hospital 2 weeks in a nursing home and 2 weeks of home and hospice care....how much do you think 20% of that bill is? About $200,000 to $300,000. Now you will say no big deal when that person dies their debt dies with them. False. If you are married, your spouse owes that money. If you have an estate(house, cars, savings, retirement, life insurance) The executor of that estate owes thats money. Many spouses claim bankruptcy and that works well. Unless you already claimed bankruptcy from a long hard battle with your spouses illness. It isnt easy to be a caregiver and work. Its actually almost impossible. I can see how there could be a fourth and a fifth side of things really easy. My mother died in September of 2011 and by November I was being sued by many to file an estate for her. So right before Christmas after paying for my mothers extra needs, driving many hours to different hospitals and costing thousands in gas alone and then a funeral I had negative money. So I had to sell anything valuable I had to pay for a lawyer because all this jerks are sueing me. Not the hospitals, that bill still hasnt come, they are still calculating that bill. I feel for all your situations. I dont wish any of it on anyone, ever. I for one I hope I die in a car crash or have a heart attack. I dont ever want to see my children go through this.

No Good Solution
The problem is that healthcare, by its very nature CAN'T be free. You look at the EuroZone, with their socialized medicine, and realize as Maggie Thatcher said, "Eventually, you run out of other people's money."

This equipment is horrendously expensive. Why? Well, aside from a need for profit, research costs money, (for that matter, big buildings and million dollar salaries cost money, but we won't talk about that...)

So, here in the US, as long as you have money, or good insurance, you can get good care. If you search for it. Or fall into it. In Canada, you get acceptable to good care, depending on the Doctors, but you have to wait. As Jerry Pournelle says, there is infinite demand for a free good or service.

So what do you do??? I have no idea. Mmmm. I have about $180,000 in life insurance. Oh, cool. Except, guess what, it's term life (which I agree with), but when I stop working, the college stops paying for it. And I got no clue what the monthly nut is, if I and I have to pay for it.

And Mandy, yep, your Mom's estate owes for her bills. Be grateful that they can't come after YOU for what her estate owes. Any money YOU had to "upfront" for your mother's care should come out of what is in the estate. And let the vultures squabble over the rest.

--Jerry

jss2011

jgwright said:

No Good Solution
The problem is that healthcare, by its very nature CAN'T be free. You look at the EuroZone, with their socialized medicine, and realize as Maggie Thatcher said, "Eventually, you run out of other people's money."

This equipment is horrendously expensive. Why? Well, aside from a need for profit, research costs money, (for that matter, big buildings and million dollar salaries cost money, but we won't talk about that...)

So, here in the US, as long as you have money, or good insurance, you can get good care. If you search for it. Or fall into it. In Canada, you get acceptable to good care, depending on the Doctors, but you have to wait. As Jerry Pournelle says, there is infinite demand for a free good or service.

So what do you do??? I have no idea. Mmmm. I have about $180,000 in life insurance. Oh, cool. Except, guess what, it's term life (which I agree with), but when I stop working, the college stops paying for it. And I got no clue what the monthly nut is, if I and I have to pay for it.

And Mandy, yep, your Mom's estate owes for her bills. Be grateful that they can't come after YOU for what her estate owes. Any money YOU had to "upfront" for your mother's care should come out of what is in the estate. And let the vultures squabble over the rest.

--Jerry

Free
I won't elaborate too much here as I just replied on williams post to daisylynn but I will say
If you are lucky enough to be in the US and have GREAT medical benefits that is the place to be. I truly envy your access and choices when dealing with this.

We can get 2nd and 3rd opinions in Canada but lets be honest, with the aggressive nature of EC do we really want any further delays??!!

The only thing worse is to be in the US with no medical benefits.

Jimbo- I feel for you and your situation, I hope that this node gets dealt with and you wont know the hardship you have described. No one should have to choose between eating and medical care.

Julie

oriontj

jss2011 said:

Free
I won't elaborate too much here as I just replied on williams post to daisylynn but I will say
If you are lucky enough to be in the US and have GREAT medical benefits that is the place to be. I truly envy your access and choices when dealing with this.

We can get 2nd and 3rd opinions in Canada but lets be honest, with the aggressive nature of EC do we really want any further delays??!!

The only thing worse is to be in the US with no medical benefits.

Jimbo- I feel for you and your situation, I hope that this node gets dealt with and you wont know the hardship you have described. No one should have to choose between eating and medical care.

Julie

You can
also tell the hospital whoever you will pay a certain amount each month. As long as you do so..well it should be fine. I put my assets in my and my son's name. My husband is not able to use them. I have never signed anything that I would be responsible though twice the local onc , we don't go to him, gave me papers to sign. I said I will not sign them. Once you do you're dead in the water.

No matter how you look at it, it's a mess.

Cora11

oriontj said:

You can
also tell the hospital whoever you will pay a certain amount each month. As long as you do so..well it should be fine. I put my assets in my and my son's name. My husband is not able to use them. I have never signed anything that I would be responsible though twice the local onc , we don't go to him, gave me papers to sign. I said I will not sign them. Once you do you're dead in the water.

No matter how you look at it, it's a mess.

chiming in
As a nurse and doctor team here I can tell you that as long as our system is based on a for profit motive- meaning huge corporate profits for health care organizations and insurance companies, we will be in trouble. We aren't in any better situation as we have to self insure. We have an outrageous deductible- as in 30,000 dollars and then our insurance is using the "usual and customary" clause to nickel and dime us and we don't have any negotiating power whatsoever. Even a combination like a public/private option would be better than what we have right now. With insurance being tied to employment in our society, we are all in potentially very vulnerable situations. And Medicare is a government program, and our congress receives benefits through government programs. My husband is an Emergency Medicine doctor and that is the only safety net we have right now, and costs continue to get shifted and we all end up paying for it in the end. It's precarious and frankly, I think mean spirited to prevent access to health care.
Cora

jgwright

Cora11 said:

chiming in
As a nurse and doctor team here I can tell you that as long as our system is based on a for profit motive- meaning huge corporate profits for health care organizations and insurance companies, we will be in trouble. We aren't in any better situation as we have to self insure. We have an outrageous deductible- as in 30,000 dollars and then our insurance is using the "usual and customary" clause to nickel and dime us and we don't have any negotiating power whatsoever. Even a combination like a public/private option would be better than what we have right now. With insurance being tied to employment in our society, we are all in potentially very vulnerable situations. And Medicare is a government program, and our congress receives benefits through government programs. My husband is an Emergency Medicine doctor and that is the only safety net we have right now, and costs continue to get shifted and we all end up paying for it in the end. It's precarious and frankly, I think mean spirited to prevent access to health care.
Cora

Insurance
Insurance, and the cost of such things, is one of the REASONS care is so expensive. Ridiculous, but true. When there is TOO MUCH money, and too many deep pockets, the cost of things become greater and greater. Take a look at the housing market. Easy availability of money for private home ownership (especially when people did not have the ability to ever pay it back) was one of the primary reasons for the cost of home ownership to rise so precipitously. Of course, the other primary reason was greed, greed on the part of the lenders, and greed on the part of homebuyers who wanted something so way beyond their means.

So greed is running its destructive little way here in VespucciLand. Is it true that the cost of an endoscopy in Japan is $35.00???

--Jerry

megmacmd

My two cents worth
As a doctor in the US I have always hoped for socialized medicine .I was in the Navy for 9 years and that system worked well for the really sick.You might have to wait but you got taken care of for free.My Uncle in Canada has been really sick and he has gotten marvelous care. I for one am at the mercy of my job.If I dont work I lose my benefits and have to pay cobra 1,000+ a month.The copays really add up too.I have too many assest to qualify for anything I am selling my house. One of the reasons I decided to stop chemo was I have to work and cant if too sick and plan to work until I cant anymore and live with my daughter and hopefully what little disability I will get will cover expenses.Can only pray I go quickly and hospice will take care of me.Trying to get my last child through college so am funnelling resourses into his account so he will be taken care of.I see far too much of lack of health care here in the US you have to be destitute or 65 in order to qualify for any plans.Its enough to be sick but then to have to worry about finances is and extra burden.My PET scan was denied by my insurance only will cover a cat scan which is not as informative.So that also made me decide to stop chemo no sense in getting sicker and still die from this disease plan to enjoy life while I still feel half way decent.Tough decsion but reality.Just my input to the discussion Meg Mac

ABC321

Australian model
HI folks,
I must say that our medical system in Australia, whilst certainly not perfect, has been great. We can opt for private insurance which covers a high percentage but does have gaps. James and I have opted for the public sector health system which has been fantastic. Everyone in this country pays a small percentage of thier income toward national healthcare. thus far we have not paid one cent in care for James' cancer treatment, which has include obtaining a second opinion from a different hospital earlier on. All the usual chemo's are on the public health list, and if you want to try something more experimental you can pay for it yourself...its up to you. I have watched some of the debale on the Obama plan and i really dont understand why people wouldn;t want a robust public health system?? I thank god we have one here at this time in our lives!
Steve

JimboC

I'm sorry
I was in a pretty sour mood when I posted this so I hope my post didn't offend anyone. It doesn't mean my overall opinion has changed but I wish I had chosen my words a little more carefully. As you know I usually try to be a little more upbeat but sometimes the weight of this damned beast wears you down.

It has shown me that many of us are in pretty bad shape with regards to health care coverage. Thanks to some of the reading here, I have told my wife not to sign any agreements with regards to billing. The last thing I want to do is to leave them a mess if this doesn't go well. I'm going to go talk to my lawyer sometime over the next few weeks and see what my options are.

Take care!

jgwright

JimboC said:

I'm sorry
I was in a pretty sour mood when I posted this so I hope my post didn't offend anyone. It doesn't mean my overall opinion has changed but I wish I had chosen my words a little more carefully. As you know I usually try to be a little more upbeat but sometimes the weight of this damned beast wears you down.

It has shown me that many of us are in pretty bad shape with regards to health care coverage. Thanks to some of the reading here, I have told my wife not to sign any agreements with regards to billing. The last thing I want to do is to leave them a mess if this doesn't go well. I'm going to go talk to my lawyer sometime over the next few weeks and see what my options are.

Take care!

Costs
I don't think ANY of us are happy with insurance and costs of treatment. It is horrendous. And though I'm happy that our Australian friend has a great plan, the thing you have to remember is that when American Government gets ahold of things, stuff goes awry. The Energy Department, created back in the 70s was supposed to make us energy independent. Not even close to happening. The Education Department... A report on our K-12 said that if our system of education had been imposed by a foreign power it could be considered an act of war.

We want fairness in insurance policies, and would love for everyone to have decent care, but the government has shown total incompetence in so many things it does, that thinking people are terrified of ObamaCare. Nancy Pelosi herself said of the 1100 page plus bill, "You'll have to pass it to find out what is in it." Arrrgh.

--Jerry

oriontj

JimboC said:

I'm sorry
I was in a pretty sour mood when I posted this so I hope my post didn't offend anyone. It doesn't mean my overall opinion has changed but I wish I had chosen my words a little more carefully. As you know I usually try to be a little more upbeat but sometimes the weight of this damned beast wears you down.

It has shown me that many of us are in pretty bad shape with regards to health care coverage. Thanks to some of the reading here, I have told my wife not to sign any agreements with regards to billing. The last thing I want to do is to leave them a mess if this doesn't go well. I'm going to go talk to my lawyer sometime over the next few weeks and see what my options are.

Take care!

They will get us one way or another.
I won't sign anything. Probably they'll still send me the bills..well they'll get what I send them when the time comes. We have Medicare and his school insurance plan which is good. Will they stop the school insurance? Who knows?

It's enough to worry about this disease without worrying about your family's financial future.

jan