latest CT results not good . . . where do do I go from here???

yoga

Hello Fellow Colon Cancer Survivors,

I haven't been around the board for a while . . . . wanted to spend time not thinking and worrying about cancer. Apparently not thinking about it doesn't make it go away!!

Since my diagnosis of stage IV CC in July of 2010 I have been on FOLFIRI every two weeks with a couple of very short breaks - 30 chemos total. The first 10 of the treatments were with Avastin but onc was concerned about bleeding so that was stopped. No surgery as there were about 20 mets on my liver. Each CT has showed shrinkage. The August CT showed stability - that was a hard one to swallow, but I soldiered on. Today I saw my onc and got the results of this week's CT . . . . growth in two of the tumours . . . and growth was measured in cm. I think about a cm each - don't remember as both my husband and I were frozen in shock. Didn't even ask for a copy of the report.

Now I am lookinig at moving onto FOLFOX and the onc has suggested I could go back on Avastin on the understanding that there could be serious consequences. I won't get chemo next week as paper work has to be done to get funding for Avastin. Then I need to decide if I start the following week (which would mean cancelling our long weekend in New York) or if I am okay with holding off one more week. I am stuck - can't figure it out.

Now I am looking at the oxaliplatin side effects. I am feeling so much stronger than I did this time last year. I was able to garden this year, back to my school as a volunteer . . . . I have worked hard at making my life as 'normal' as possible. My husband and I were looking forward to some downhill skiing and snowshoeing this winter; I was even ready to buy some new skates to skate on the Rideau Canal in Ottawa - the things that make living in Canada so great. Now I know that won't happen. So very disappointed.

How is all of this considered 'quality of life'?!?!

I guess I do as I know so many of you longtimers have done - put on my game face, pull up those big girl panties and get back at it. But . . . THIS SUCKS - BIG TIME!!!!

Now I must juice, drink my fractionated pectin powder and get onto the treadmill for an hour.

Guess I need to be back here with all of you for support and encouragement; surround myself with those who 'get' what I am feeling.

Thanks to all of you for being on this board,
yoga jo (Joanne)

janie1

Yoga Jo
Wondered where you have been. Others will probably tell you how long they have been on Avastin....some pretty long. For me, the Oxi hasn't been too bad. Certainly can enjoy most days. There is a member, Westie66, i think, who is also from Canada, who shared details of her treatment while on Folfox. There were some supplements that her onc suggested she take and it worked well for her. Many oncs don't want to discuss supplements, it esp. seems that way in the U.S. Hoping you will still be able to enjoy all those winter activities.

pepebcn

Joanne I have been in both Folfox and Fofiri, must tell you
that i don't find Folfox more aggressive than folfiri, less stomach probles not hair losse, not may of the issues than folfiri has, Certanly theta is a big problem , neuropathy , but severe one is not too often !
Hope it helped!

westie66

pepebcn said:

Joanne I have been in both Folfox and Fofiri, must tell you
that i don't find Folfox more aggressive than folfiri, less stomach probles not hair losse, not may of the issues than folfiri has, Certanly theta is a big problem , neuropathy , but severe one is not too often !
Hope it helped!

Westie Here!
Hi Joanne: Yup, it is me. I just got back from my 12th oxaliplatin + irenotecan + 5FU pump treatment (previous to that I had 12 treatments of cisplatin + gemcitibine - absolutely no side effects with that one except a bit of constipation). Whether I have more will depend on the results of my MRI that I get on Tuesday. I too have tolerated this regime quite well - only about 8 days/month where I feel really fatigued and have bad diarrhea (for which I take lomotil) and sweating and a furry tongue. The irenotecan is the culprit there I think. I am given lots of anti-nausea drugs before and after chemo plus an injection for the side effects of the irenotecan.

I had a bad reaction to oxaliplatin the first treatment - felt like my face was falling off and I was swallowing broken glass. But my oncologist reduced the amount and infusion rate of the oxaliplatin and I take the following supplements (recommended by people on this website - my oncologist is OK with it) - L-Glutamine Fermented 5 grams of powder in a glass of juice per day, 3 alpha liloic acid tablets morning, noon, and night, 1 Vit B6 pill every day, one calcium/magnesium pill every day (you can get this as an infusion if you ask), and one Vit D pill. With all this, I haven't had a problem since the first episode. I can even have an ice cream after chemo. I don't have tingling in the feet or hands. And as I said I just finished the 12th treatment.

Worth a try!

Cheryl

smokeyjoe

Ahhh skating on the Rideau,
Ahhh skating on the Rideau, my kids love it, I go for the Beaver Tails and hot chocolate, love standing around the fires they have on the canal!!! Do you take modified citrus fruit pectin?? Where do you get it, I can't seem to find any anywhere. Last time I went to supplement store they even said they were having trouble getting Reservetrol and were down to one supplier. They have apple pectin etc. but not the MCP that I've seen talked about on here.

annalexandria

I would 2nd
Cheryl's advice on the glutamine. At the hospital where I was treated, it's standard protocol for many of their cancer patients, and it can really help keep the oxaliplatin side effects to a minimum. Most people do pretty well on FOLFOX/Avastin, and are able to enjoy many aspects of life while taking it. That said, I understand how angry you must feel about this. I've had a couple of rounds of thinking things were all-clear, only to get the very disappointing news that the cancer was still doing its thing. And if it was me, I think I would take the weekend away. I have an aggressive, fast-growing cancer, but I still choose to sometimes take a little time off to spend time with my family. For me, there has to be a balance between fighting hard against the cancer, and doing the things that make me happy. Sending lots of positive energy your way that this chemo will be the one to do the trick, kick that cancer out for good-Ann

pscott1

Hi Yoga Jo,
I was diagnosed Stage II in January of this year and found out soon after that I had approx 30+ lesions in my liver. I was on Folfox w/Avastin from April for 7 treatments and went in for the 8th and Onc put me on maint chemo; Avastin only. I have had 3 MRI's and my tumors are shrinking as well; largest one I had last scan was 1.3 cm. My tumor marker is climbing slowly with each chemo treatment. I went from 337 down to 1.3 and after 4 maint treatments I'm at 1.6. After my 4th treatment of the Folfox regimen, my Onc took me off the Oxaliplatin because of the Neuropathy, half numb lips and tongue. I had minimal hair loss and definately had the feeling of broken glass when drinking cold drinks. I was beginning to think I was the only one out here with that many tumors in my liver. We're kind of in the same boat so please keep us updated on your progress. I'd be interested to know how you're coming along. I'll be here to support you as well as I'm sure everyone else fighting this fight.

Hugs,

Pam

pete43lost_at_sea

yoga breathing yoga jo
So sorry yoga Jo, pull on the game face, but smile each mile on the treadmill and each juice even through the tears.
Its a few more miles on the treadmill to your destination.

Just had First yoga lesson, learned yoga breathing, it's helps with meditatiion, pooing, walking.

I dreamed of climbing mount Everest in real life, instead my Everest is within. Our minds and hearts are amazing healing resources.
My 1 hour a day meditation practice gives me Peace of mind
I know in my heart it is healing for me.

Petrea king mentioned peace of mind.
Ian gawler mentioned escador.
Greg Fitzgerald mentioned fasting.
These people above are my health mentors.
Do your own research and good luck caring for yourself!

Hugs,
Pete

yoga

janie1 said:

Yoga Jo
Wondered where you have been. Others will probably tell you how long they have been on Avastin....some pretty long. For me, the Oxi hasn't been too bad. Certainly can enjoy most days. There is a member, Westie66, i think, who is also from Canada, who shared details of her treatment while on Folfox. There were some supplements that her onc suggested she take and it worked well for her. Many oncs don't want to discuss supplements, it esp. seems that way in the U.S. Hoping you will still be able to enjoy all those winter activities.

thanks
Thanks for your thoughts . . . . and noticing my absence! I guess time will tell how I react. My husband went out and bough my a very high-tech looking face mask to try when the weather gets cold - maybe it holds the key to some outdoor winter fun. I am fortunate that my onc is quite open to supplements and some alternative ideas - he even talked to me about the importance of the mind when he gave me my poor CT results.
yoga jo

yoga

pepebcn said:

Joanne I have been in both Folfox and Fofiri, must tell you
that i don't find Folfox more aggressive than folfiri, less stomach probles not hair losse, not may of the issues than folfiri has, Certanly theta is a big problem , neuropathy , but severe one is not too often !
Hope it helped!

Pepe
Pepe,
Thanks for your reflections . . . . the hand-foot syndrome has been a problem for me, so I am hoping the neuropathy from the Folfox doesn't make things worse. Do you do anything to help combat the neuropathy?
yoga jo

yoga

westie66 said:

Westie Here!
Hi Joanne: Yup, it is me. I just got back from my 12th oxaliplatin + irenotecan + 5FU pump treatment (previous to that I had 12 treatments of cisplatin + gemcitibine - absolutely no side effects with that one except a bit of constipation). Whether I have more will depend on the results of my MRI that I get on Tuesday. I too have tolerated this regime quite well - only about 8 days/month where I feel really fatigued and have bad diarrhea (for which I take lomotil) and sweating and a furry tongue. The irenotecan is the culprit there I think. I am given lots of anti-nausea drugs before and after chemo plus an injection for the side effects of the irenotecan.

I had a bad reaction to oxaliplatin the first treatment - felt like my face was falling off and I was swallowing broken glass. But my oncologist reduced the amount and infusion rate of the oxaliplatin and I take the following supplements (recommended by people on this website - my oncologist is OK with it) - L-Glutamine Fermented 5 grams of powder in a glass of juice per day, 3 alpha liloic acid tablets morning, noon, and night, 1 Vit B6 pill every day, one calcium/magnesium pill every day (you can get this as an infusion if you ask), and one Vit D pill. With all this, I haven't had a problem since the first episode. I can even have an ice cream after chemo. I don't have tingling in the feet or hands. And as I said I just finished the 12th treatment.

Worth a try!

Cheryl

Cheryl . . . .
Hello,
Thanks for all of your words of wisdom. I have been on folfiri for so long that I know what to expect . . . . switching to folfox makes me feel like I am starting all over again. I was allergic to irenotican and had to hae benedryl before each treatment, so I don't know how I will reach to the oxy. I will be getting the infusion of calcium and magnesium and presently take a B6 and Vit D everyday . . . . I will have to look into your other suggestions.
Hope I can eat ice cream too!! That would make me quite happy indeed . . . . the thought of nothing cold is rather a sad one.
Again, thanks . . . .
yoga jo

yoga

smokeyjoe said:

Ahhh skating on the Rideau,
Ahhh skating on the Rideau, my kids love it, I go for the Beaver Tails and hot chocolate, love standing around the fires they have on the canal!!! Do you take modified citrus fruit pectin?? Where do you get it, I can't seem to find any anywhere. Last time I went to supplement store they even said they were having trouble getting Reservetrol and were down to one supplier. They have apple pectin etc. but not the MCP that I've seen talked about on here.

Ottawa?
Hi Smokeyjoe,

Are you from the Ottawa area?!? I love going to Winterlude and eating maple taffy - which usually ends up all over my hands! . . . . hopefully the cold will not be too much of a problem and I can get out and enjoy some of our beautiful winter weather!

I get my Fractionated Pectin Powder from Watson's Pharmacy (192 Main St.). It is a great little place and the pharmacist is terrific. I also go there for my melatonin that they compound for me. If you don't live right in the city, or have troubles getting there they will mail it to you - I don't live right in the city and have often had them do this.

Have you looked into the Ottawa Integrative Health Centre? Dr. Kershner is one of the naturopathic doctors there and she only works with cancer patients - she has a deep understanding of all traditional treatments and how alternatives will react with them. She has just recently moved to head up the Ottawa Integrative Cancer Centre which has jsut opened.

yoga jo

yoga

annalexandria said:

I would 2nd
Cheryl's advice on the glutamine. At the hospital where I was treated, it's standard protocol for many of their cancer patients, and it can really help keep the oxaliplatin side effects to a minimum. Most people do pretty well on FOLFOX/Avastin, and are able to enjoy many aspects of life while taking it. That said, I understand how angry you must feel about this. I've had a couple of rounds of thinking things were all-clear, only to get the very disappointing news that the cancer was still doing its thing. And if it was me, I think I would take the weekend away. I have an aggressive, fast-growing cancer, but I still choose to sometimes take a little time off to spend time with my family. For me, there has to be a balance between fighting hard against the cancer, and doing the things that make me happy. Sending lots of positive energy your way that this chemo will be the one to do the trick, kick that cancer out for good-Ann

Ann
Hi Ann,
Thanks for you positive thoughts. I have decided to go ahead and skip this one treatment - meaning I can still have my weekend in Toronto with friends and have the long weekend in New York with my husband. I did take a couple of treatments off this summer and had a fabulous time at the cottage with my nephews!
I will look into the glutamine - I will be seeing my onc before I start this new treatment so will discuss it with him.
I am not sure I will ever be rid of the cancer - there are about 20 mets all over my liver . . . . but that doesn't stop me from fighting with everything I have!! I have told my nurse that I am going for the gold - I have never been one to give up so I won't be starting now.
yoga jo

yoga

pscott1 said:

Hi Yoga Jo,
I was diagnosed Stage II in January of this year and found out soon after that I had approx 30+ lesions in my liver. I was on Folfox w/Avastin from April for 7 treatments and went in for the 8th and Onc put me on maint chemo; Avastin only. I have had 3 MRI's and my tumors are shrinking as well; largest one I had last scan was 1.3 cm. My tumor marker is climbing slowly with each chemo treatment. I went from 337 down to 1.3 and after 4 maint treatments I'm at 1.6. After my 4th treatment of the Folfox regimen, my Onc took me off the Oxaliplatin because of the Neuropathy, half numb lips and tongue. I had minimal hair loss and definately had the feeling of broken glass when drinking cold drinks. I was beginning to think I was the only one out here with that many tumors in my liver. We're kind of in the same boat so please keep us updated on your progress. I'd be interested to know how you're coming along. I'll be here to support you as well as I'm sure everyone else fighting this fight.

Hugs,

Pam

Hi Pam
I too was thinking I was the only one with so many liveer mets - guess that makes us kind of special doesn't it? My first 10 treatments were Folfiri with Avastin but the onc took me off of Avastin because of some bleeding. We are going to add avastin back in with the folfox this time and hope that there are no serious bleeding issues. With any luck, this new course of action will get the shrinkage going again!!
Hugs from one special person to another!
yoga jo

yoga

pete43lost_at_sea said:

yoga breathing yoga jo
So sorry yoga Jo, pull on the game face, but smile each mile on the treadmill and each juice even through the tears.
Its a few more miles on the treadmill to your destination.

Just had First yoga lesson, learned yoga breathing, it's helps with meditatiion, pooing, walking.

I dreamed of climbing mount Everest in real life, instead my Everest is within. Our minds and hearts are amazing healing resources.
My 1 hour a day meditation practice gives me Peace of mind
I know in my heart it is healing for me.

Petrea king mentioned peace of mind.
Ian gawler mentioned escador.
Greg Fitzgerald mentioned fasting.
These people above are my health mentors.
Do your own research and good luck caring for yourself!

Hugs,
Pete

thanks Pete
Thanks for you thoughts Pete. I really liked your analogy of the internal Everest - I will keep that in my mind. I continue to exercise, juice, eat super healthy foods and practice yoga for my mind, body and spirit. Even my oncologist talked about the importance of the things I was doing for myself and pointed out how importnat the mind is in dealing with things - he feels I will do well with my new treatments because of what i am doing and because of my determination. My nurse even told me that she has used me as an example to others who are struggling with the disease. Made me feel good.

I have been interested in looking into meditation. The closest meditation centre is about 1.5 hours from here so I haven't made the trek yet. Can you give me any ideas or pointers?

yoga jo

maglets

yoga said:

thanks Pete
Thanks for you thoughts Pete. I really liked your analogy of the internal Everest - I will keep that in my mind. I continue to exercise, juice, eat super healthy foods and practice yoga for my mind, body and spirit. Even my oncologist talked about the importance of the things I was doing for myself and pointed out how importnat the mind is in dealing with things - he feels I will do well with my new treatments because of what i am doing and because of my determination. My nurse even told me that she has used me as an example to others who are struggling with the disease. Made me feel good.

I have been interested in looking into meditation. The closest meditation centre is about 1.5 hours from here so I haven't made the trek yet. Can you give me any ideas or pointers?

yoga jo

yoga jo
Hi yoga jo....I am maggie and I live In Owen sound....the first winter i did oxy it was -40F here....Owen Sound is the third snowiest city in Canada and I know Ottawa is cold too. I am writing to say it is totally doable....I too had a face mask and i used....a big balaclava and I would dash from infusion to the car. We found a heated arena where you could walk and i walked every day of treatment....I guess it was about 40 F inside there and that was good.

I have had 2 liver resections after the death sentence and I am still going jo...in fact in about 2 secs I am going out to my weekly yoga class....love it...

jo I used a lot of meditative tapes on oxy so i could just lie and listen to guided imagery. I really really liked that...

ok gotta run but you are not the only Canuck with oxy....I will be here for you kiddo with every bit of love and help I can give you

big snowie hugs

maggie

smokeyjoe

yoga said:

Ottawa?
Hi Smokeyjoe,

Are you from the Ottawa area?!? I love going to Winterlude and eating maple taffy - which usually ends up all over my hands! . . . . hopefully the cold will not be too much of a problem and I can get out and enjoy some of our beautiful winter weather!

I get my Fractionated Pectin Powder from Watson's Pharmacy (192 Main St.). It is a great little place and the pharmacist is terrific. I also go there for my melatonin that they compound for me. If you don't live right in the city, or have troubles getting there they will mail it to you - I don't live right in the city and have often had them do this.

Have you looked into the Ottawa Integrative Health Centre? Dr. Kershner is one of the naturopathic doctors there and she only works with cancer patients - she has a deep understanding of all traditional treatments and how alternatives will react with them. She has just recently moved to head up the Ottawa Integrative Cancer Centre which has jsut opened.

yoga jo

No, not from the Ottawa
No, not from the Ottawa area, I'm just north of Toronto, but we started to make annual trip with my boys and their girlfriends, make a weekend of it, we check out the ice sculptures, do some skating, go over to Winterlude too. Seemed last year when we were planning on going they closed the canal because the weather was too warm. My boys play fastball, and we've been to Orleans for ball tournaments several times over the years.

pete43lost_at_sea

yoga said:

thanks Pete
Thanks for you thoughts Pete. I really liked your analogy of the internal Everest - I will keep that in my mind. I continue to exercise, juice, eat super healthy foods and practice yoga for my mind, body and spirit. Even my oncologist talked about the importance of the things I was doing for myself and pointed out how importnat the mind is in dealing with things - he feels I will do well with my new treatments because of what i am doing and because of my determination. My nurse even told me that she has used me as an example to others who are struggling with the disease. Made me feel good.

I have been interested in looking into meditation. The closest meditation centre is about 1.5 hours from here so I haven't made the trek yet. Can you give me any ideas or pointers?

yoga jo

just read your reply i'm a bit obsessed with diet stuff
been on here too much really, but had lots i wanted to say.

regard to meditation, just do it.

ian gawler based mindfulness is where i am at now.
some days clock up 90min, most 30 to 60 min in a couple of settings.

after you get the practise down its easy, closed my eyes at a red light today and got honked back into the real world.

so don't do it driving!!!!!!!!! that a big warning.

just close your eyes and think of nothing is where its all at, so peaceful!!!!!!!!

now different styles exist, the retreat environment got me over the hump so to speak 10 days and 90 min a day in 3 sessions established the practice.

search on the health benefits of meditation and cancer, if after you do get the practise down you will wonder why it took so long. i do it in the bath, bout to hop in now.

go for it.

we can hit the summit together, my meditation practise has amplified my awareness, enlightenment and love.
i think i touch these each and everyday, so it takes the fear out of death for me, not that i welcome it, but it makes living with our specific uncertainty a joy. i hope you get what i mean.

many of my stage 4 ian gawler mates are meditating 90 minutes a day religously as if their lives depend on it. maybe it does.

its different to yoga but similar. looking into blackness, real mindlessness is essential for unlocking the deep healing powers of the mind. thats my belief based on lectures, practise and research. and i have discussed this with phd experts on the subject. i am off to another conference by ian gawler this weekend where mindfulness will be discussed.

in 1 minute i will start a mindfulness meditation thread like the exercise thread, i just don't want to be seen as posting to much, so few joined the exercise thread i was disappointed a little but i loved the way pepe always kept me company. his presence got me off my **** so to speak. i really think the same would happen with the meditation thread.

in my heart i believe its as essential as exercise. just goggle meditation and mindfulness.
http://shamrockdesign.com/sitesOffline/sp/pdfs/Med_The_Effect_of_a_Mindfulness_Meditation-Based_Stress_Reduction_Program_on_Mood_and_Symptoms_of_Stress_in_Cancer_Outpatients.pdf
just skip to the benefits.

hugs,
pete

Buckwirth

pete43lost_at_sea said:

just read your reply i'm a bit obsessed with diet stuff
been on here too much really, but had lots i wanted to say.

regard to meditation, just do it.

ian gawler based mindfulness is where i am at now.
some days clock up 90min, most 30 to 60 min in a couple of settings.

after you get the practise down its easy, closed my eyes at a red light today and got honked back into the real world.

so don't do it driving!!!!!!!!! that a big warning.

just close your eyes and think of nothing is where its all at, so peaceful!!!!!!!!

now different styles exist, the retreat environment got me over the hump so to speak 10 days and 90 min a day in 3 sessions established the practice.

search on the health benefits of meditation and cancer, if after you do get the practise down you will wonder why it took so long. i do it in the bath, bout to hop in now.

go for it.

we can hit the summit together, my meditation practise has amplified my awareness, enlightenment and love.
i think i touch these each and everyday, so it takes the fear out of death for me, not that i welcome it, but it makes living with our specific uncertainty a joy. i hope you get what i mean.

many of my stage 4 ian gawler mates are meditating 90 minutes a day religously as if their lives depend on it. maybe it does.

its different to yoga but similar. looking into blackness, real mindlessness is essential for unlocking the deep healing powers of the mind. thats my belief based on lectures, practise and research. and i have discussed this with phd experts on the subject. i am off to another conference by ian gawler this weekend where mindfulness will be discussed.

in 1 minute i will start a mindfulness meditation thread like the exercise thread, i just don't want to be seen as posting to much, so few joined the exercise thread i was disappointed a little but i loved the way pepe always kept me company. his presence got me off my **** so to speak. i really think the same would happen with the meditation thread.

in my heart i believe its as essential as exercise. just goggle meditation and mindfulness.
http://shamrockdesign.com/sitesOffline/sp/pdfs/Med_The_Effect_of_a_Mindfulness_Meditation-Based_Stress_Reduction_Program_on_Mood_and_Symptoms_of_Stress_in_Cancer_Outpatients.pdf
just skip to the benefits.

hugs,
pete

Ian Gawler
is something of an Aussie phenomenon, and not well known in the US (or probably in the EU). Funny thing though, his ex-wife remembers his treatments, and her care of him, a little differently:

Grace Gawler on Ian...

Conflict of interest alert: His ex-wife runs her own cancer retreats, though Gawler has admitted his diet was not strictly vegan.

Everything on the retreat sites refers to Ian as Doctor Gawler, but I was hard pressed to find out he was a doctor of veterinary medicine (his current wife is a GP).

A one day seminar runs about $110 AU (or about $112 US). The retreats mentioned on his web site do not come with a dollar figure, but they are not limited to cancer, he also has retreats for MS victims.

Pete's referenced study is interesting, but I do notice that the control group seems to have been smaller in total size, and was heavily weighted to Stage IV, where the larger treatment group was heavily weighted to Stages 1/2.

To be clear, I do believe that meditation is a great stress reducer (do it myself from time to time), so my criticism of the study dynamics is not meant to be critical of the conclusions, just to say that I wish it had a better design, and possibly a larger overall sample size so that its conclusions could carry more weight.

pete43lost_at_sea

Buckwirth said:

Ian Gawler
is something of an Aussie phenomenon, and not well known in the US (or probably in the EU). Funny thing though, his ex-wife remembers his treatments, and her care of him, a little differently:

Grace Gawler on Ian...

Conflict of interest alert: His ex-wife runs her own cancer retreats, though Gawler has admitted his diet was not strictly vegan.

Everything on the retreat sites refers to Ian as Doctor Gawler, but I was hard pressed to find out he was a doctor of veterinary medicine (his current wife is a GP).

A one day seminar runs about $110 AU (or about $112 US). The retreats mentioned on his web site do not come with a dollar figure, but they are not limited to cancer, he also has retreats for MS victims.

Pete's referenced study is interesting, but I do notice that the control group seems to have been smaller in total size, and was heavily weighted to Stage IV, where the larger treatment group was heavily weighted to Stages 1/2.

To be clear, I do believe that meditation is a great stress reducer (do it myself from time to time), so my criticism of the study dynamics is not meant to be critical of the conclusions, just to say that I wish it had a better design, and possibly a larger overall sample size so that its conclusions could carry more weight.

i met the second wife Ruth, she is lovelly and an inspiring gp
I think the article raised a couple of warnings for me, one was its essential following the vegan diet lifestyle to have enough of the essential food groups covered, i think i am going to have to keep a vegan food diary and get it reviewed by my vegan dietary mentor.

the market price for my 10 day retreat was $3000, given the quality of the food, courses, activities and accomodation i would say its very good value, even for cancer patients that don't follow the entire program. you would be hard pressed not to gain alot out of the lectures and all the healthy organic vegan food, and the 5 vegetable juices a day. but thats just my opinion. the foundation is not for profit, they are running a seminar this weekend in melbourne i am attending. they gave my a bursary and allowed time payment which i think speaks very highly of their mission which is to help cancer patients be healthy, they do promise miracles, but occasiionally they happen. i have met a few. thats why i am a vegan. not willing to play the 15% odds i have got.

http://www.anticancerbook.com/post/The-2009-Nobel-Prize-for-Medicine-and-how-our-lifestyle-can-protect-our-genes.html

is this awarding of a nobel prize ok enough, I hope anyone interested clearly sees this is where science is heading. these guys were vegan in the ornish study.

i appreciate your comments, i always learn more when i make another search. and it was interesting to see the fight between ex wives played out in the media.

hugs,
pete