Cimetidine use

laurettas

Have a few quick questions for those of you who have used cimetidine. What dose did you use and did you use it all the time or just for a period of time? Also what was your opinion of it? Did you think it helped?

tanstaafl

CIM, ¡ SI !
Mostly 1200 mg per day, 800-1600 mg at different times, over 1.5 years, on 1st or 2nd day of diagnosis for 4 weeks before 1st surgery. 1600-3200 mg per day perioperatively (highest amount was from sr surgeon for 2nd surgery) for two surgeries.

Serum CA19-9 greater than 25, appears to be a consideration for especially higher odds on cimetidine enhanced survival, even in stage II cases. Additional blood or tissue tests can make an absolute determiniation according to the literature.

Both sets of surgeons were demoralized by what they saw at active tumor sites during open surgery, even though subsequent data and events seemed to significantly improve their outlook. Wife is symptom free, with a lot of other chemistry going on. Based on case details and pathology, the second surgeons tenatively accept cimetidine with being a significant factor in destroying a substantial part of the initial metastastes, and preventing additional metastasis by both peritoneal invasion after 1st surgery, and general metastasis from a dozen+ cancerous para-aortic lymph nodes for a year after 1st surgery.

pete43lost_at_sea

i am in two minds
I got the scripts and pills for 6 months sitting up next to the supplement.
posted about this a few months ago.

was over enthusiastic at first.

NOT been taking them.

mindful of any side effects.

Wanted to discuss with onc who has been away.
Wanted to confirm ca 19.9 status.

Am very mindful of all the supplements, juices and tcm i am taking.

I misread the clinical study initially and did not realise the main benefit was achived whuile taking 5fu.

so waiting for oncs opinion....

focusing on exercise, diet, meditation and juicing for now....

hope this helps,

hugs,
Pete

janderson1964

tanstaafl said:

CIM, ¡ SI !
Mostly 1200 mg per day, 800-1600 mg at different times, over 1.5 years, on 1st or 2nd day of diagnosis for 4 weeks before 1st surgery. 1600-3200 mg per day perioperatively (highest amount was from sr surgeon for 2nd surgery) for two surgeries.

Serum CA19-9 greater than 25, appears to be a consideration for especially higher odds on cimetidine enhanced survival, even in stage II cases. Additional blood or tissue tests can make an absolute determiniation according to the literature.

Both sets of surgeons were demoralized by what they saw at active tumor sites during open surgery, even though subsequent data and events seemed to significantly improve their outlook. Wife is symptom free, with a lot of other chemistry going on. Based on case details and pathology, the second surgeons tenatively accept cimetidine with being a significant factor in destroying a substantial part of the initial metastastes, and preventing additional metastasis by both peritoneal invasion after 1st surgery, and general metastasis from a dozen+ cancerous para-aortic lymph nodes for a year after 1st surgery.

I have never heard of this
I have never heard of this before and I have been on the cancer journey for 6 years now. Is this chemotherapy. Is there another name for it. I know a lot of the drugw I have been given in the past had alias's.

janderson1964

pete43lost_at_sea said:

i am in two minds
I got the scripts and pills for 6 months sitting up next to the supplement.
posted about this a few months ago.

was over enthusiastic at first.

NOT been taking them.

mindful of any side effects.

Wanted to discuss with onc who has been away.
Wanted to confirm ca 19.9 status.

Am very mindful of all the supplements, juices and tcm i am taking.

I misread the clinical study initially and did not realise the main benefit was achived whuile taking 5fu.

so waiting for oncs opinion....

focusing on exercise, diet, meditation and juicing for now....

hope this helps,

hugs,
Pete

Exercising
You seem to have a lot in common with me. I am a hardcore mountain biker for the past 10 years. I have also been kayaking whitewater and flat for the past 3 years. I am also into weight lifting. I eat as much organic as I can and juice as well. In fact I just added dried dandelion root to my juicing regimant. Any suggestions on how much to take. Am getting milk thistle as well.

laurettas

tanstaafl said:

CIM, ¡ SI !
Mostly 1200 mg per day, 800-1600 mg at different times, over 1.5 years, on 1st or 2nd day of diagnosis for 4 weeks before 1st surgery. 1600-3200 mg per day perioperatively (highest amount was from sr surgeon for 2nd surgery) for two surgeries.

Serum CA19-9 greater than 25, appears to be a consideration for especially higher odds on cimetidine enhanced survival, even in stage II cases. Additional blood or tissue tests can make an absolute determiniation according to the literature.

Both sets of surgeons were demoralized by what they saw at active tumor sites during open surgery, even though subsequent data and events seemed to significantly improve their outlook. Wife is symptom free, with a lot of other chemistry going on. Based on case details and pathology, the second surgeons tenatively accept cimetidine with being a significant factor in destroying a substantial part of the initial metastastes, and preventing additional metastasis by both peritoneal invasion after 1st surgery, and general metastasis from a dozen+ cancerous para-aortic lymph nodes for a year after 1st surgery.

Thanks for the reply
So, has your wife been on cimetidine all the time or does she take it for a period of time and then stop for awhile? One of my concerns was the fact that any acid blocker will affect the person's ability to absorb certain nutrients. I was wondering if then a person should take breaks from it in order for the body to regain some of the depleted nutrients. Any thoughts on that?

laurettas

janderson1964 said:

I have never heard of this
I have never heard of this before and I have been on the cancer journey for 6 years now. Is this chemotherapy. Is there another name for it. I know a lot of the drugw I have been given in the past had alias's.

Cimetidine=Tagamet
Cimetidine is the drug in the over the counter heartburn medicine, Tagamet. It has been discovered to be quite helpful in stopping the growth and spread of tumors, particularly of the colon. Google it and you will see some interesting stories and results of studies.

Buckwirth

janderson1964 said:

Exercising
You seem to have a lot in common with me. I am a hardcore mountain biker for the past 10 years. I have also been kayaking whitewater and flat for the past 3 years. I am also into weight lifting. I eat as much organic as I can and juice as well. In fact I just added dried dandelion root to my juicing regimant. Any suggestions on how much to take. Am getting milk thistle as well.

exercise as adjuvant
The current research on exercise for stage 2/3 is pretty clear, and seems to show a benefit that is equal to chemotherapy in reducing the risk of reccurance. Pete has a great walking thread, and if you do a little searching you can find a couple of conversations we had on this subject a few months ago.

laurettas

Buckwirth said:

exercise as adjuvant
The current research on exercise for stage 2/3 is pretty clear, and seems to show a benefit that is equal to chemotherapy in reducing the risk of reccurance. Pete has a great walking thread, and if you do a little searching you can find a couple of conversations we had on this subject a few months ago.

What's your opinion, Blake,
of cimetidine?

Buckwirth

laurettas said:

What's your opinion, Blake,
of cimetidine?

Don't
Have one. The research I've read has been pretty specific (pre-surgery), which was positive, but I have seen nothing for adjuvant use or for treatment of advanced disease.

Most of us need an antacid, so tagament is as good a choice as any other.

tanstaafl

laurettas said:

Thanks for the reply
So, has your wife been on cimetidine all the time or does she take it for a period of time and then stop for awhile? One of my concerns was the fact that any acid blocker will affect the person's ability to absorb certain nutrients. I was wondering if then a person should take breaks from it in order for the body to regain some of the depleted nutrients. Any thoughts on that?

stage four-ever
She has been on cimetidine everyday, including surgery. With stage IV, an initially elevated CA19-9 (and still highish), and apparent granulocyte attack response, cimetidine is a high priority.

She takes digestive supplements to improve nutrient breakdown and absorption: L-glutamine for the GI epithelial lining; about two 10 grain betaine hydrochloride with pepsin to replace stomach acid, and several 1400 mg (equivalent) pancreatin.

She also takes number of high strength supplements including high dose vitamins except no vitamin A. Does some juicing. Lower carb diet, milk whey protein shakes with medium chain triglycerides and supplements. No synthetic folic acid, leucovorin (folinic acid) and natural source (reduced) folates to avoid 5FU toxicity.

laurettas

Buckwirth said:

Don't
Have one. The research I've read has been pretty specific (pre-surgery), which was positive, but I have seen nothing for adjuvant use or for treatment of advanced disease.

Most of us need an antacid, so tagament is as good a choice as any other.

A couple of links
Here are a couple of links that, if you have the time, I would like you to look at and give your opinion.

http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/60/14/3978.long
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2007/may2007_report_cimetidine_01.htm

Jake is beginning maintenance chemo next month and I was thinking that if Tagamet could assist in keeping the cancer at bay, it would be worth taking it. He goes in for a PET scan in a couple of weeks so we might see how much active cancer we are dealing with. The CT scans have all shown shrinkage each time and his CEA is down to 6 from 40 so we are hoping that the cancer has been tempered substantially right now.

laurettas

tanstaafl said:

stage four-ever
She has been on cimetidine everyday, including surgery. With stage IV, an initially elevated CA19-9 (and still highish), and apparent granulocyte attack response, cimetidine is a high priority.

She takes digestive supplements to improve nutrient breakdown and absorption: L-glutamine for the GI epithelial lining; about two 10 grain betaine hydrochloride with pepsin to replace stomach acid, and several 1400 mg (equivalent) pancreatin.

She also takes number of high strength supplements including high dose vitamins except no vitamin A. Does some juicing. Lower carb diet, milk whey protein shakes with medium chain triglycerides and supplements. No synthetic folic acid, leucovorin (folinic acid) and natural source (reduced) folates to avoid 5FU toxicity.

Thanks for the reply
The digestive supplements certainly make sense. Where can one get the hydrochloride and pancreatin supplements? I have seen the L-glutamine on the shelf so know where to get it.

tanstaafl

pete43lost_at_sea said:

i am in two minds
I got the scripts and pills for 6 months sitting up next to the supplement.
posted about this a few months ago.

was over enthusiastic at first.

NOT been taking them.

mindful of any side effects.

Wanted to discuss with onc who has been away.
Wanted to confirm ca 19.9 status.

Am very mindful of all the supplements, juices and tcm i am taking.

I misread the clinical study initially and did not realise the main benefit was achived whuile taking 5fu.

so waiting for oncs opinion....

focusing on exercise, diet, meditation and juicing for now....

hope this helps,

hugs,
Pete

Dramatic vs great or good parts
Dramatic effect is perioperative for stage III and IV, long term cimetidine still affects survival for stage IV pts with CA19-9 + E-selectin (CSLEX1) biomarkers. Appears to have some overlap with Avastin (VEGF)) and Erbitux (EGFR signaling) with less side effects, in fact some of their use development appears to attempt to copycat cimetidine's uses but couldn't (e.g. Avastin failed two stage III chemo tests). Cimetidine's lower side effects allows longer coverage and more combinations.

Long term cimetidine is a team player with many other agents. In some cases CIM has necrosed (some) cancers but usually its importance is to help prevent additional mets. Still will likely need to get the existing mets out somehow. Prefer "cut" for us.

I strongly suspect any stage IV studies will miss correct supplements and PSK, even the ones I found had impressive survival improvements.

tanstaafl

laurettas said:

Thanks for the reply
The digestive supplements certainly make sense. Where can one get the hydrochloride and pancreatin supplements? I have seen the L-glutamine on the shelf so know where to get it.

where
mail order is cheap, health food stores are faster. Have not seen them in Walmart, Sam's, Costco, or drugstore OTC. Sometimes in health food section of a large grocery store, $$.

The other supplements are a consideration.

laurettas

tanstaafl said:

Dramatic vs great or good parts
Dramatic effect is perioperative for stage III and IV, long term cimetidine still affects survival for stage IV pts with CA19-9 + E-selectin (CSLEX1) biomarkers. Appears to have some overlap with Avastin (VEGF)) and Erbitux (EGFR signaling) with less side effects, in fact some of their use development appears to attempt to copycat cimetidine's uses but couldn't (e.g. Avastin failed two stage III chemo tests). Cimetidine's lower side effects allows longer coverage and more combinations.

Long term cimetidine is a team player with many other agents. In some cases CIM has necrosed (some) cancers but usually its importance is to help prevent additional mets. Still will likely need to get the existing mets out somehow. Prefer "cut" for us.

I strongly suspect any stage IV studies will miss correct supplements and PSK, even the ones I found had impressive survival improvements.

I've been meaning to ask
What is PSK?

smokeyjoe

tanstaafl said:

Dramatic vs great or good parts
Dramatic effect is perioperative for stage III and IV, long term cimetidine still affects survival for stage IV pts with CA19-9 + E-selectin (CSLEX1) biomarkers. Appears to have some overlap with Avastin (VEGF)) and Erbitux (EGFR signaling) with less side effects, in fact some of their use development appears to attempt to copycat cimetidine's uses but couldn't (e.g. Avastin failed two stage III chemo tests). Cimetidine's lower side effects allows longer coverage and more combinations.

Long term cimetidine is a team player with many other agents. In some cases CIM has necrosed (some) cancers but usually its importance is to help prevent additional mets. Still will likely need to get the existing mets out somehow. Prefer "cut" for us.

I strongly suspect any stage IV studies will miss correct supplements and PSK, even the ones I found had impressive survival improvements.

My onc. gave me prescription
My onc. gave me prescription for it, wanted me to wait a couple of days to make sure the irrinotecan has cleared my system....something to do with drugs that are processed by the liver and with taking cimetidine it could interfere with the irrinotecan clearing your system and he was concerned I would have irrinotecan side effects like mouth sores, diarrhea etc.....

tanstaafl

smokeyjoe said:

My onc. gave me prescription
My onc. gave me prescription for it, wanted me to wait a couple of days to make sure the irrinotecan has cleared my system....something to do with drugs that are processed by the liver and with taking cimetidine it could interfere with the irrinotecan clearing your system and he was concerned I would have irrinotecan side effects like mouth sores, diarrhea etc.....

Any -iri experiences anyone?
No cimetidine -iri experience here, used it in 5FU super-maintenance mode only.

The Japanese research shows cimetidine and UFT used in steady daily doses, bid and tid respectively, rather than weekly or monthly boluses. Lisa42 has mentioned cimetidine during the months of her 5FU/xeloda-gemcitabine (Gemzar) treatment, might be a good idea to clarify her experiences.

tanstaafl

laurettas said:

I've been meaning to ask
What is PSK?

PSK
The formal Japanese drug, a Coriolus mushroom extract, developed in the 1980s is polysaccharide K aka Krestin, once Japan's highest selling anticancer agent for years and years. In the US, a close clone is Super Strength Coriolus from Mushroom Science with 40+% glucans (a high concentration). Life Extension Foundation discusses it.

pete43lost_at_sea

janderson1964 said:

Exercising
You seem to have a lot in common with me. I am a hardcore mountain biker for the past 10 years. I have also been kayaking whitewater and flat for the past 3 years. I am also into weight lifting. I eat as much organic as I can and juice as well. In fact I just added dried dandelion root to my juicing regimant. Any suggestions on how much to take. Am getting milk thistle as well.

hardcore is the word i like
this fffing disease needs hardcore response.

the irony is meditation is the response, its what keeps the mind focused all the healing responses.

also just exposed to dandelion root coffee on this 10 day retreat, see ian gawler post.
i took my liverco liver supplement which is mainly milk thistle. will discuss with naturopath to see her reponse. i quiet liked the taste as a substitute for coffee. been off coffee for 18 months of my healing journey.

i was born in 1966, so we are the same vintage, almost.

stay hardcore its a great way to be, i never realised that the applies to me as well. but it does.

got to go and meditate this disease away and fill my mind with nothing in particular. i live on this beach front and am walking down right now.

hugs,
pete

janderson1964

pete43lost_at_sea said:

hardcore is the word i like
this fffing disease needs hardcore response.

the irony is meditation is the response, its what keeps the mind focused all the healing responses.

also just exposed to dandelion root coffee on this 10 day retreat, see ian gawler post.
i took my liverco liver supplement which is mainly milk thistle. will discuss with naturopath to see her reponse. i quiet liked the taste as a substitute for coffee. been off coffee for 18 months of my healing journey.

i was born in 1966, so we are the same vintage, almost.

stay hardcore its a great way to be, i never realised that the applies to me as well. but it does.

got to go and meditate this disease away and fill my mind with nothing in particular. i live on this beach front and am walking down right now.

hugs,
pete

Please le me know about the
Please le me know about the milk thistle and dandelion. I just started adding a teaspoon of each to my carrot/ginger joice in the morning. Not sure if that is too much or too little.