Calling into Question the Definition of the Cause of Cancer.

catwink22

Hondo said:

Hi Phil
I guess it depends on the size of the pin

:+))
Hondo

Hee
Or the size of the angels.

(Hey Hondo, you posted on 10/22 at 10:22!)

PhillieG

catwink22 said:

Hee
Or the size of the angels.

(Hey Hondo, you posted on 10/22 at 10:22!)

And...
the dance they are doing. If it's Slow Dancing they don't need much room but if they're Break Dancing... whoa!

Hondo

PhillieG said:

And...
the dance they are doing. If it's Slow Dancing they don't need much room but if they're Break Dancing... whoa!

Break dancing

Hmmm Phil let me check and see on that and get right back to you. :+))


Thanks I needed the laugh today
Hondo

laurettas

ricwally said:

Apoptosis is hard to refute
Apoptosis; There could be something going on in modern times that is causing our DNA to lose the ability to follow thru with its programmed death. This is the only viable explanation that I can think of that adds any support to the DNA theory for explaining cancer. But the follow up question is what are we doing in modern times to cause our DNA to lose this ability for the cell to follow thru with its programmed death? Why has apoptosis become a modern phenomena? Why does this not affect third world countries to the same extent? Why does this programmed cell death have a profoundly different affect on children and the types of cells they have that ends up losing this ability to die? You point out that “That certainly doesn't negate your post by any means.” Perhaps the explanation for why this is happening could apply to either scenario. I am having difficulty poking a hole in this concept of apoptosis. For the time being, I will need to entertain the possibility that either scenario is plausible.

Very interesting!
I actually read all of this thread tonight, much to the dismay of my eyes! I printed it out, thinking that would be easier but the type was so small that at first I thought some flies had taken up residence on the paper, if you know what I mean.

Anyhow, I find this topic totally intriguing. The reason I think the basic premise shows some merit is primarily one reason. It makes no sense to me that rogue cells would develop the capacity to develop their own vascular system. That is something that it would seem only the immune system would have the capacity of doing with its ability to repair wounds.

I can see how the body being harmed in some way would elicit an immune response. This could come from carcinogens, irritation, any number of things. If, then, in the process of healing that wound, the immune system malfunctioned and lost its ability to stop the processes it began, then "cancer" has begun.

I am a little confused about one thing, however. It was stated that cancer cells from all different locations have more in common with each other than with the organ from which they originated. I didn't understand then how biopsies could determine whether a cancer originated in the colon or lung or whatever if that were the case.

Another thing that my experience is in conflict with is the assertion that those with allergies have less cancer. My husband has allergies to dust, pollen, etc. that have bothered him for all of his life. He has had cancer twice. He also gets much more ill than I do with colds, etc. and I have no known allergies. I would think that too much constant stimulation of the immune system might tend to cause it to malfunction more readily--allergies could be a sign that the immune system does not know how to shut itself off properly.

I had another thought about the less frequent occurrences of cancer in some cultures. Could part of the issue be the fact that many cultures are living in an environment that their ancestors have been in for many, many centuries, eating the same types of foods, exposed to the same fauna, etc. potentially causing many fewer allergies and food sensitivities than those who move to totally new environments eating foods that their bodies have not been genetically adapted to tolerate?

In studying about my husband's particular type of cancer, signet ring cell, one of the things that promotes its growth is the lack of functioning of a molecule in the cell called E cadherin. This molecule is one thing that causes the cells to stick together and when cells don't stick together, they lose their ability to die when they are supposed to, leading to cancer. This particular molecule is dependent on calcium to function--so could a lack of calcium lead to this malfunction?

I have also read about a protein found in heart muscle that is much less present in colon cancer cells than in normal colon cells. Could deficiencies in certain nutrients such as calcium and certain proteins contribute to cancer forming?

One last thing. The marker commonly watched with colon and some other cancers is CEA--carcinoembryonic antigen. I presume CEA is produced by embryos in their stage of rapidly dividing cells. Do we know what causes the embryo to stop this stage of rapid division? If we did, couldn't we figure out how to restore this capacity in cancer cells?

So many possible causes and cures for this disease--it is mind numbing at times!

A final question. Any particular reason this was posted in the spirituality section?

soccerfreaks

laurettas said:

Very interesting!
I actually read all of this thread tonight, much to the dismay of my eyes! I printed it out, thinking that would be easier but the type was so small that at first I thought some flies had taken up residence on the paper, if you know what I mean.

Anyhow, I find this topic totally intriguing. The reason I think the basic premise shows some merit is primarily one reason. It makes no sense to me that rogue cells would develop the capacity to develop their own vascular system. That is something that it would seem only the immune system would have the capacity of doing with its ability to repair wounds.

I can see how the body being harmed in some way would elicit an immune response. This could come from carcinogens, irritation, any number of things. If, then, in the process of healing that wound, the immune system malfunctioned and lost its ability to stop the processes it began, then "cancer" has begun.

I am a little confused about one thing, however. It was stated that cancer cells from all different locations have more in common with each other than with the organ from which they originated. I didn't understand then how biopsies could determine whether a cancer originated in the colon or lung or whatever if that were the case.

Another thing that my experience is in conflict with is the assertion that those with allergies have less cancer. My husband has allergies to dust, pollen, etc. that have bothered him for all of his life. He has had cancer twice. He also gets much more ill than I do with colds, etc. and I have no known allergies. I would think that too much constant stimulation of the immune system might tend to cause it to malfunction more readily--allergies could be a sign that the immune system does not know how to shut itself off properly.

I had another thought about the less frequent occurrences of cancer in some cultures. Could part of the issue be the fact that many cultures are living in an environment that their ancestors have been in for many, many centuries, eating the same types of foods, exposed to the same fauna, etc. potentially causing many fewer allergies and food sensitivities than those who move to totally new environments eating foods that their bodies have not been genetically adapted to tolerate?

In studying about my husband's particular type of cancer, signet ring cell, one of the things that promotes its growth is the lack of functioning of a molecule in the cell called E cadherin. This molecule is one thing that causes the cells to stick together and when cells don't stick together, they lose their ability to die when they are supposed to, leading to cancer. This particular molecule is dependent on calcium to function--so could a lack of calcium lead to this malfunction?

I have also read about a protein found in heart muscle that is much less present in colon cancer cells than in normal colon cells. Could deficiencies in certain nutrients such as calcium and certain proteins contribute to cancer forming?

One last thing. The marker commonly watched with colon and some other cancers is CEA--carcinoembryonic antigen. I presume CEA is produced by embryos in their stage of rapidly dividing cells. Do we know what causes the embryo to stop this stage of rapid division? If we did, couldn't we figure out how to restore this capacity in cancer cells?

So many possible causes and cures for this disease--it is mind numbing at times!

A final question. Any particular reason this was posted in the spirituality section?

"Where is that confounded bridge?"
(Led Zeppelin reference)

A fine synthesis of the material, laur, and greatly appreciated for its sensitivity to the author as well as to the facts.

I believe the author of the original post is trying to maintain that all research regarding cancer is about DNA with no regard to the immune system (as I read it along with follow-ups) and I disagree with the first premise and dispute te second as well. Of course the immune system is involved in the study of cause and cure of cancer; of course DNA is involved although not solely so, in the study of cause and cure of cancer. You make great points about the complexity of this issue: how come this is so, but that is not so (I will not repeat your entire post ).

Your last question may be the most important to this site: why is it posted here? I would advise that there is nowhere else to post it, in fairness to the writer. Perhaps a general discussion forum would help? I can envision a can of worms, but also a place to really discuss issues like conventional versus non-traditional methods of treatment, new technologies, a post like this one,, that sort of thing.

It might get heated, but does anyone else think there might be a need for a sort of research forum, a thought forum, a discussion forum among us non-cancer-professionals about what we have read and processed and want others to have a chance to think about?

Just wondering.

Take care,

Joe

laurettas

soccerfreaks said:

"Where is that confounded bridge?"
(Led Zeppelin reference)

A fine synthesis of the material, laur, and greatly appreciated for its sensitivity to the author as well as to the facts.

I believe the author of the original post is trying to maintain that all research regarding cancer is about DNA with no regard to the immune system (as I read it along with follow-ups) and I disagree with the first premise and dispute te second as well. Of course the immune system is involved in the study of cause and cure of cancer; of course DNA is involved although not solely so, in the study of cause and cure of cancer. You make great points about the complexity of this issue: how come this is so, but that is not so (I will not repeat your entire post ).

Your last question may be the most important to this site: why is it posted here? I would advise that there is nowhere else to post it, in fairness to the writer. Perhaps a general discussion forum would help? I can envision a can of worms, but also a place to really discuss issues like conventional versus non-traditional methods of treatment, new technologies, a post like this one,, that sort of thing.

It might get heated, but does anyone else think there might be a need for a sort of research forum, a thought forum, a discussion forum among us non-cancer-professionals about what we have read and processed and want others to have a chance to think about?

Just wondering.

Take care,

Joe

Great idea
I think that is a great idea, Joe. Either that or we just hijack one of the threads already going and discuss our thoughts there!

I know that, personally, I appreciate the knowledge that so many people here have about this subject. As I already stated, I have a lot of questions as to the hows and whys of cancer and sometimes there are people that have already researched and studied the issue who can just provide me with the answer to my questions. And, who knows, maybe collectively we can gain some insights that may be helpful.