Back of Hand or inside elbow?

rose_marie

Hello everyone,
I don't visit this sight too often but I have a small problem/question. As some of you may already know, my ovarian cancer came back after almost 5 years in remission! I started carbo March 25, 2011.
I have small veins and it is very difficult for the nurse, not to mention the soreness and discomfort I feel for many days following chemo (every 3 weeks). I will be having #4 of 8 this Friday morning. It was suggested I get some of that cream to numb my hand, which I did.
I keep asking the nurse to use the vein in my arm, closer to my elbow area but she will not. I could force the issue if this is an option. How do you all have your chemo administered? Please no port...

carolenk

Dear Rose Marie
I think the
Dear Rose Marie

I think the chemo nurse is "saving" your best vein for blood draws. Once a vein gets scarred, it could be gone for good. How wonderful that you had a five-year break from treatment! Did you have a bad experience with a port on your first round of chemo?

Carolen

rose_marie

carolenk said:

Dear Rose Marie
I think the
Dear Rose Marie

I think the chemo nurse is "saving" your best vein for blood draws. Once a vein gets scarred, it could be gone for good. How wonderful that you had a five-year break from treatment! Did you have a bad experience with a port on your first round of chemo?

Carolen

Port
Hi Carolen,
No, I never did have a port. The first time around, I had 6 treatments and didn't get as sick as I do now. It was so much easier for me at that time. I really don't think the fact that I am 5yrs older has anything to do with it. But then again, I could be wrong.
My cancer was PPC at stage 3 (a, b, c is unknown)

Rosemarie

ten101

Veins
Hi Rose Marie, I had issues with my chemotherapy and veins, the back of my hand was horrible. I tried to get nurse to change it during first treatment but she refused because it wasn't swollen. Anyway they tried various other places, finally had one in my elbow and I made nurse promise to give there the last time as well. She didn't want to but she did. No port for me, I didn't want it and dr didn't push for it. I was stage 1c and hopefully the 6treatments I had will be it. I did make them change in mid treatment one time as I was in tears it was so uncomfortable and painful. You can push the issue but saving the good veins could be important as well. Good luck, Mary Carol

Rookerbird

Small Veins
Hi Rosemarie -

I also have small, rolling veins, and my week-long hospital stay for my hysterectomy and debulking ruined them.

When I was about to have the half-hour surgery to have my port installed, the nurse couldn't access a vein for the anesthesia. The ANESTHESIOLOGIST took over for the nurse, and he couldn't access a vein either!

They gave up and took me to the operating room wide awake, where I was given some kind of gas to make me woozy enough to stand the pain of them poking around for a workable vein. When I woke up from the surgery, the needle for the IV was on the TOP OF MY FOOT.

I don't want to discourage you, but sometimes veins just wear out and can no longer be used. Having small veins to begin with factored in to my problem. Thank God for my port, because without it I could not have had chemo.

The vast majority of patients where I go for chemo have ports. However, I've overheard two conversations between nurses and patients trying to figure out how to proceed with chemo because the nurse couldn't access a vein. I remember the nurses stressing the importance of being well-hydrated. One patient was sent home, and told to drink a ton of water and come back the next day. So, be sure to drink a minimum of 64 ounces of WATER a day for the several days prior to chemo.

Hoping you have an easy time on Friday,
Kathy

rose_marie

ten101 said:

Veins
Hi Rose Marie, I had issues with my chemotherapy and veins, the back of my hand was horrible. I tried to get nurse to change it during first treatment but she refused because it wasn't swollen. Anyway they tried various other places, finally had one in my elbow and I made nurse promise to give there the last time as well. She didn't want to but she did. No port for me, I didn't want it and dr didn't push for it. I was stage 1c and hopefully the 6treatments I had will be it. I did make them change in mid treatment one time as I was in tears it was so uncomfortable and painful. You can push the issue but saving the good veins could be important as well. Good luck, Mary Carol

back of my hand
Hello Mary Carol, thanks for all the good info. I never thought of my elbow area.
I saw my onc this morning and he seems to think I am doing well. I asked about a port and he didn't seem to think it was necessary. Fine with me!
I am sure the 6 treatments will be all that you need. I will keep you in my prayers.

Rosemarie

rose_marie

Rookerbird said:

Small Veins
Hi Rosemarie -

I also have small, rolling veins, and my week-long hospital stay for my hysterectomy and debulking ruined them.

When I was about to have the half-hour surgery to have my port installed, the nurse couldn't access a vein for the anesthesia. The ANESTHESIOLOGIST took over for the nurse, and he couldn't access a vein either!

They gave up and took me to the operating room wide awake, where I was given some kind of gas to make me woozy enough to stand the pain of them poking around for a workable vein. When I woke up from the surgery, the needle for the IV was on the TOP OF MY FOOT.

I don't want to discourage you, but sometimes veins just wear out and can no longer be used. Having small veins to begin with factored in to my problem. Thank God for my port, because without it I could not have had chemo.

The vast majority of patients where I go for chemo have ports. However, I've overheard two conversations between nurses and patients trying to figure out how to proceed with chemo because the nurse couldn't access a vein. I remember the nurses stressing the importance of being well-hydrated. One patient was sent home, and told to drink a ton of water and come back the next day. So, be sure to drink a minimum of 64 ounces of WATER a day for the several days prior to chemo.

Hoping you have an easy time on Friday,
Kathy

64oz!
Oh my, I drink water prior to my visit but it has been about 18oz. I will start drinking the 64oz a day starting this afternoon. That will give me almost 3 days to get my veins puffed up and ready for chemo on Friday.

Thank you very much Kathy for the great information.

Rosemarie

AussieMaddie

Oh no, not the hand!
Hi rose_marie

I hate them putting it in the back of the hand because it always hurts so much more, but sometimes the veins in my arm wiggle once they get into them so they can't use them. They have to go wherever they can. The last time was my 9th cycle and the nurse had more trouble finding a vein to use. She said it could be because they are being affected by having so many chemo sessions. I have two half-strength doses spread over 2 weeks, then two weeks off before having the next two half-doses. Two doses make one cycle. The doctor said it might be because I've been having them in half-doses that I've been so free of side-effects, but can't say for sure.

The nurses have never put the chemo in my elbow (leave that for blood tests) but they often use the back of my arm, above the wrist. But then, I don't have small veins like you. I'm really sorry that you have that problem. I have a friend for whom only certain pathology nurses can take blood because her veins are tiny. Others can never find them. Sometimes, she just doesn't bother - and she should. And that's just for ordinary blood tests.

Have they tried to use the back of your arm? If not, perhaps it's worth asking about that.

Five years in remission! How on earth did you do that? My doctor has made it clear that I cannot expect that. For now, my CA125 marker is 'within normal range' 17, but he also said that we're not stopping the chemo until either it stops working or my body can't take it. Wonder if there is a difference in terms of remission between ovarian cancer and peritoneal cancer (which I have)? I know they are the same type of cells, and that the same chemo is used but you'd think that there would be some differences.

You're taking only the carbo? This is my first run through and I'm carbo and taxol. I see that you

AussieMaddie

rose_marie said:

Port
Hi Carolen,
No, I never did have a port. The first time around, I had 6 treatments and didn't get as sick as I do now. It was so much easier for me at that time. I really don't think the fact that I am 5yrs older has anything to do with it. But then again, I could be wrong.
My cancer was PPC at stage 3 (a, b, c is unknown)

Rosemarie

Worse the second time around
Mmm.. I've yet to get to there. I'm still on my first go around. So far 9 cycles, 10th on its way. Don't know when it will be stopped. Doc hasn't said. Your experience makes me think that, even if they do stop it for now, that I may not have such an easy time of it next time.

Oh oh..

AussieMaddie

ten101 said:

Veins
Hi Rose Marie, I had issues with my chemotherapy and veins, the back of my hand was horrible. I tried to get nurse to change it during first treatment but she refused because it wasn't swollen. Anyway they tried various other places, finally had one in my elbow and I made nurse promise to give there the last time as well. She didn't want to but she did. No port for me, I didn't want it and dr didn't push for it. I was stage 1c and hopefully the 6treatments I had will be it. I did make them change in mid treatment one time as I was in tears it was so uncomfortable and painful. You can push the issue but saving the good veins could be important as well. Good luck, Mary Carol

Saving the good veins
Hi Mary Carol,

I'm so sorry that you had such a horrible experience that you had to make them change it in mid-treatment. I've not had that experience, though I have had one episode in which the needle in the back of my arm for some reason stayed slightly painful. I did tell the nurse. She checked it and said that it was getting through ok. Afterward, I had the worse bruise ever till then.

I agree with them avoiding the good veins. The chemo can ruin the veins overtime and we need the good ones for when they do the blood tests.

AussieMaddie

AussieMaddie

Rookerbird said:

Small Veins
Hi Rosemarie -

I also have small, rolling veins, and my week-long hospital stay for my hysterectomy and debulking ruined them.

When I was about to have the half-hour surgery to have my port installed, the nurse couldn't access a vein for the anesthesia. The ANESTHESIOLOGIST took over for the nurse, and he couldn't access a vein either!

They gave up and took me to the operating room wide awake, where I was given some kind of gas to make me woozy enough to stand the pain of them poking around for a workable vein. When I woke up from the surgery, the needle for the IV was on the TOP OF MY FOOT.

I don't want to discourage you, but sometimes veins just wear out and can no longer be used. Having small veins to begin with factored in to my problem. Thank God for my port, because without it I could not have had chemo.

The vast majority of patients where I go for chemo have ports. However, I've overheard two conversations between nurses and patients trying to figure out how to proceed with chemo because the nurse couldn't access a vein. I remember the nurses stressing the importance of being well-hydrated. One patient was sent home, and told to drink a ton of water and come back the next day. So, be sure to drink a minimum of 64 ounces of WATER a day for the several days prior to chemo.

Hoping you have an easy time on Friday,
Kathy

minimum of 64 ounces of WATER a day!
Mmm.. what's that in litres? Will find out. But it sounds like a lot more than I drink. Thanks for the info. Will keep it in mind before I have my next chemo.

[Ok. Just looked it up. 64oz is almost 2 litres. Heavens! Since they've got me on fluid tablets to keep the fluid from building up in my abdomen again, I'll be forever on the toilet. ]

rose_marie

AussieMaddie said:

Oh no, not the hand!
Hi rose_marie

I hate them putting it in the back of the hand because it always hurts so much more, but sometimes the veins in my arm wiggle once they get into them so they can't use them. They have to go wherever they can. The last time was my 9th cycle and the nurse had more trouble finding a vein to use. She said it could be because they are being affected by having so many chemo sessions. I have two half-strength doses spread over 2 weeks, then two weeks off before having the next two half-doses. Two doses make one cycle. The doctor said it might be because I've been having them in half-doses that I've been so free of side-effects, but can't say for sure.

The nurses have never put the chemo in my elbow (leave that for blood tests) but they often use the back of my arm, above the wrist. But then, I don't have small veins like you. I'm really sorry that you have that problem. I have a friend for whom only certain pathology nurses can take blood because her veins are tiny. Others can never find them. Sometimes, she just doesn't bother - and she should. And that's just for ordinary blood tests.

Have they tried to use the back of your arm? If not, perhaps it's worth asking about that.

Five years in remission! How on earth did you do that? My doctor has made it clear that I cannot expect that. For now, my CA125 marker is 'within normal range' 17, but he also said that we're not stopping the chemo until either it stops working or my body can't take it. Wonder if there is a difference in terms of remission between ovarian cancer and peritoneal cancer (which I have)? I know they are the same type of cells, and that the same chemo is used but you'd think that there would be some differences.

You're taking only the carbo? This is my first run through and I'm carbo and taxol. I see that you

Oh no, not my hand!
No, not the back of my arm yet. I have that "numbing" cream so I guess I can put it all over my hand and arm, just to cover all the bases!
As for the 5 yr remission, I really don't know. My doctor told me yesterday that I did have PPC and it was stage 3/4. He said that stage 3 and 4 are very similar. My first time around, I first had 3 chemo treatments of carbo/taxol to shrink the grapefruit size tumer. Then surgery to remove all my female organs, uterus, tubes and ovaries. Then after 8 weeks I started the final 3 chemo carbo/taxol treatments.
When the cancer came back, it settled in the sack of my right lung. Made it very hard to breath and to be honest, cancer was the last thing on my mind.
In December my ca125 was 8 and had been between 4 and 8 for the past 4+years. I changed insurance company back to Kaiser and decided to see my oncologist in Feb. I had the ca125 test done prior to my Feb app't and it was 135. We both thought it might be an error in the lab, so 3 weeks later I had it done again. It was about 40 pts higher. I was so convinced that Kaiser lab was messing up that I went back to Peninsula Hospital lab and had it done a 3rd time, this time at my expense. It continued to rise.
I started chemo on March 25th.
My Onc seems to think that this time around that carbo is sufficient.

Tina Brown

rose_marie said:

Oh no, not my hand!
No, not the back of my arm yet. I have that "numbing" cream so I guess I can put it all over my hand and arm, just to cover all the bases!
As for the 5 yr remission, I really don't know. My doctor told me yesterday that I did have PPC and it was stage 3/4. He said that stage 3 and 4 are very similar. My first time around, I first had 3 chemo treatments of carbo/taxol to shrink the grapefruit size tumer. Then surgery to remove all my female organs, uterus, tubes and ovaries. Then after 8 weeks I started the final 3 chemo carbo/taxol treatments.
When the cancer came back, it settled in the sack of my right lung. Made it very hard to breath and to be honest, cancer was the last thing on my mind.
In December my ca125 was 8 and had been between 4 and 8 for the past 4+years. I changed insurance company back to Kaiser and decided to see my oncologist in Feb. I had the ca125 test done prior to my Feb app't and it was 135. We both thought it might be an error in the lab, so 3 weeks later I had it done again. It was about 40 pts higher. I was so convinced that Kaiser lab was messing up that I went back to Peninsula Hospital lab and had it done a 3rd time, this time at my expense. It continued to rise.
I started chemo on March 25th.
My Onc seems to think that this time around that carbo is sufficient.

Hello Rose_Marie
I have PPC & it was discovered when I had the fluid around my lungs. My CA125 was over 1,000 but I responded well to chemo and it went down to 34. Did you have to have a chest drain?

Regarding the cannula, my veins were completely ruined as I spent 2 1/2 weeks in hospital where all they seemed to do was put cannulas in my hand so they could give me anti-biotices etc. They can only keep them in for 2 days so eventually I ressembled a junky!!! When it came to chemo a few weeks later the nurse had a really job trying to find a good vein. She persisted and I ended up with terribly bruised and battered backs of the hands. I am not on chemo now so my veins are busy healing.

Take care Tina xx

birdwellv

rose_marie said:

Oh no, not my hand!
No, not the back of my arm yet. I have that "numbing" cream so I guess I can put it all over my hand and arm, just to cover all the bases!
As for the 5 yr remission, I really don't know. My doctor told me yesterday that I did have PPC and it was stage 3/4. He said that stage 3 and 4 are very similar. My first time around, I first had 3 chemo treatments of carbo/taxol to shrink the grapefruit size tumer. Then surgery to remove all my female organs, uterus, tubes and ovaries. Then after 8 weeks I started the final 3 chemo carbo/taxol treatments.
When the cancer came back, it settled in the sack of my right lung. Made it very hard to breath and to be honest, cancer was the last thing on my mind.
In December my ca125 was 8 and had been between 4 and 8 for the past 4+years. I changed insurance company back to Kaiser and decided to see my oncologist in Feb. I had the ca125 test done prior to my Feb app't and it was 135. We both thought it might be an error in the lab, so 3 weeks later I had it done again. It was about 40 pts higher. I was so convinced that Kaiser lab was messing up that I went back to Peninsula Hospital lab and had it done a 3rd time, this time at my expense. It continued to rise.
I started chemo on March 25th.
My Onc seems to think that this time around that carbo is sufficient.

ppc
rose marie

I too have PPC and after 11 ivs in one day I had a pic line put in and it was great but didn't hold up but about 6 months, so I had a life port put in and use it for blood draws, chemo and my scans.

It has been wonderful and I don't regret it a day. My oncologists says I will probably have to have maintenance chemo forever and that my port will probably last for years.

You might consider one if you think you will have to have chemo much. I had 6 rounds of carbo/taxol, then a 6 month remission, and now am currently on doxil.

Rookerbird

rose_marie said:

back of my hand
Hello Mary Carol, thanks for all the good info. I never thought of my elbow area.
I saw my onc this morning and he seems to think I am doing well. I asked about a port and he didn't seem to think it was necessary. Fine with me!
I am sure the 6 treatments will be all that you need. I will keep you in my prayers.

Rosemarie

How did it go, Rosemarie?
How did it go on Friday, Rosemarie? Hopefully the nurse found a good vein right away, and your infusion was pain-free.

I had a lot of blood drawn last Monday...most from my port, but some from my hand. Thought of you when I got the hand prick.

-Kathy