Question on Gleason scores

awife
awife Member Posts: 5
edited March 2014 in Prostate Cancer #1
Does the Gleason remain the same? Like if you do not treat the PC will the gleason 6, progress and become a 7 then an 8...?

Also we have seriously tried the no red meat, no dairy , low fat eat healthy diet hopeing to see a lower psa to show for it but our psa was exactly the same 4 weeks later. I did see that having a biopsy in the last 4 weeks can have an effect so we're chaulking it up to that.

We have decided on robotic surgery, through Kaiser West LA with a surgeon who we liked. He has 1000 surgeries. Just wanted to tell you that your posts have been invaluable to us ! I think between us both we're read for days. We'll keep you posted. Good luck to you all.

Hubby 50 yr DX 3 +4, 2 of 13 cores less than 5%

Joey and Kathy

Comments

  • hopeful and optimistic
    hopeful and optimistic Member Posts: 2,346 Member
    #2
    Hi Kathy
    From the posts that I read, I was not aware that any of the Kaiser surgeon had done a 1000 robotics........is the 1000 a combination of open and robotic?

    As far as diet, it is a very good idea to eat a heart healthy diet...we are all more like to die of a heart attack than from prostate cancer....."heart healthy is prostate healthy."

    The PSA is an indicator, it's good to have a steady PSA...how has it been during the last few years?

    Gleason change....... your husbands biopsy , he had 13 cores.....a lot of the prostate has not been sampled so there can be cancer spots with a larger gleason score or no other cancer spots

    As far as the aggressiveness of the cancer, ...you can send the slides of your husbands pathology to a facility called aureon......they have a mathematical model, evaluting the slides on a molecular level, and other factors such as gleason to give an indication of the likelyhood of your cancer spreading in the next 8 years. You can read about it at my address by clicking my name.

    Also you can look into having an MRI with a Spectroscopy.....which will show suspicious leasons......however I do not believe that Kaiser has the capacity to do this test, although they can do an MRI which is not as accurate.

    A brother in Los Alamitos, just south of long beach

    Ira
  • Trew
    Trew Member Posts: 932 Member
    #3
    Between the time I had my
    Between the time I had my biopsey done in Jan 09 until surgery in Mar 09 my gleason moved upward from 4 + 4 to a 5 + 4. I have not seen anyone on these boards tell of a gleason going down. Sorry.


    IF PC could be treated with diet all of us would have been on THAT diet. I am sure of it.

    Diet may help slow the progression, and bless the heart- you still need that!- but as far as helping the prostate heal..........?????
  • Skid Row Tom
    Skid Row Tom Member Posts: 125
    #4
    Rising Gleason scores
    I agree with Trew. I've never heard of a Gleason decreasing -- don't even think it's possible. Originally, mine was 3+3 and then ended with it 3+4. A healthy diet is recommended, but anything else I would chalk up as Internet rumors. Once you've been diagnosed, I think most of us go through several stages. During the "denial" stage, you search for "explanations" of rising PSA's, Gleason scores, etc. For me, I tried to blame my rising PSA score on riding a bike (competitive bicyclists have this problem, but I wasn't competitive), the rookie doctor who performed a DRE BEFORE he performed the blood work, (this is bad practice but wasn't the answer in my case), bad lab work, diet, etc. At some point, you have to accept the hand you've been dealt and then make decisions on how to handle it. I believe this is the toughest part.
  • Kongo
    Kongo Member Posts: 1,166 Member
    #5
    Skid Row Tom said:

    Rising Gleason scores
    I agree with Trew. I've never heard of a Gleason decreasing -- don't even think it's possible. Originally, mine was 3+3 and then ended with it 3+4. A healthy diet is recommended, but anything else I would chalk up as Internet rumors. Once you've been diagnosed, I think most of us go through several stages. During the "denial" stage, you search for "explanations" of rising PSA's, Gleason scores, etc. For me, I tried to blame my rising PSA score on riding a bike (competitive bicyclists have this problem, but I wasn't competitive), the rookie doctor who performed a DRE BEFORE he performed the blood work, (this is bad practice but wasn't the answer in my case), bad lab work, diet, etc. At some point, you have to accept the hand you've been dealt and then make decisions on how to handle it. I believe this is the toughest part.

    PSA
    Hi, Kathy

    I think Ira was right on the mark about the Gleason grade...untreated, it tends to grow more troublesome over time although depending on which of the 20-some types of prostate cancer you have the time of the progression will vary widely.

    Regarding PSAs...I believe, and was told by three of the doctors that I consulted with, that taking a PSA within 4-6 weeks after your biopsy is pretty much a waste of time. The trauma done by sticking the needles into the prostate causes inflammation which throws increases the PSA. Also, I think it's important to standardize the conditions you get a PSA test...for example, no sex within 48 hourse, blood draw before DRE, and so forth.

    In my own case, PSA dropped from 4.3 to 2.8 about six weeks after I stopped taking ALL dairy and that was about six weeks after my biopsy that diagnosed cancer. I also cut but very significantly on red meat but did not eliminate it entirely. Also started drinking promegranate juice. I also take a statin (Crestor) which is supposed to help keep PSA down.

    From what I have read, it pretty much takes religious, long time use of statins and pomegranate juice to have a lowering effect on PSA.

    Eliminating dairy, on the other hand, isn't an additive that could potentially mask PSA readings like a statin or pomegranate juice. Lots of theories about dairy, but the one I subscribe to is that the Insulin Growth Factors (IGFs) from bovine milk are pretty much like giving cancer candy and accelerate cell growth. (Baby cows double in size in 47 days...it takes 180 for a human baby). The trend to increase dairy yield through hormones and antibiotics increases the chemicals in modern milk products. Besides, human's don't need milk after they are weaned and if you think about it, why would we EVER need milk from another species? I used to love an ice cold glass of milk, lots of cheese, ice cream, and so forth but found that soy products can pretty much be used to replace milk in any cooking or eating scenario and there is soy ice cream, cheese, yogurt. I like it.

    Bottom line is that it worked for me, and I know of other men (and woemen with breast cancer) where dairy has had a major impact but of course everyone is different.

    Good luck to you and I hope the surgery works out for both of you.
  • BRONX52
    BRONX52 Member Posts: 156
    #6
    JOE AND KATHY
    HI- DIET CERTAINLY HAS BEEN DISCUSSED QUITE A BIT HERE. CERTAINLY A HEART HEALTHY DIET CAN'T BE BAD. OTHERS SAY NO RED MEAT AND NO DAIRY. THE WAY MY DOCTORS PUT IT WAS ONCE YOU HAVE CANCER NO DIET IS GOING TO MAKE IT GO AWAY. YOU CAN'T UNRING THE BELL BY CUTTING OUT CERTAIN FOODS. POMEGRANITE JUICE HAS BEEN SHOWN TO SLOW THE PSA DOUBLING TIMES BUT PSA ALONE DOESN'T ALWAYS INDICATE THE DEGREE OF CANCER. YOU COULD HAVE A VERY LOW PSA AND THINK THAT YOUR HOME FREE BUT YET YOU ALSO COULD HAVE ADVANCED CANCER. THIS WAS THE CASE FOR ME--A PSA OF 5.1 AND A BIOPSY OF 2 OUT OF TEN CORES POSITIVE FOR CANCER. I WAS STAGED AS T1C UNTIL I HAD THE SURGERY AND THE PATHOLOGIC STAGE WAS T3A. THE PROSTATE WAS 75% INVOLVED WITH EXTRAPROSTATIC EXTENSION, PERINEURAL INVASION, POSITIVE MARGIN, AND A GLEASON 7. A FAR CRY FROM A T1C AND A RELATIVELY LOW PSA AS COMPARED TO SOME OTHERS WHO HAVE POSTED HERE. ALTHOUGH PSA IS VERY IMPORTANT, IT IS ONLY AN INDICATOR. SEVERAL OTHER DIAGNOSTIC FACTORS MUST ALSO BE CONSIDERED IN CONJUNCTION WITH PSA TO PAINT A CLEAR PICTURE OF THE CANCER. I AM SURE OTHERS MAY DISAGREE WITH ME BUT THATS HOW I SEE IT AND HOW MY FIGHT WITH CANCER HAS BEEN SO FAR. GOOD LUCK WITH THE SURGERY AND LET US KNOW HOW THINGS TURN OUT.
  • awife
    awife Member Posts: 5
    #7
    BRONX52 said:

    JOE AND KATHY
    HI- DIET CERTAINLY HAS BEEN DISCUSSED QUITE A BIT HERE. CERTAINLY A HEART HEALTHY DIET CAN'T BE BAD. OTHERS SAY NO RED MEAT AND NO DAIRY. THE WAY MY DOCTORS PUT IT WAS ONCE YOU HAVE CANCER NO DIET IS GOING TO MAKE IT GO AWAY. YOU CAN'T UNRING THE BELL BY CUTTING OUT CERTAIN FOODS. POMEGRANITE JUICE HAS BEEN SHOWN TO SLOW THE PSA DOUBLING TIMES BUT PSA ALONE DOESN'T ALWAYS INDICATE THE DEGREE OF CANCER. YOU COULD HAVE A VERY LOW PSA AND THINK THAT YOUR HOME FREE BUT YET YOU ALSO COULD HAVE ADVANCED CANCER. THIS WAS THE CASE FOR ME--A PSA OF 5.1 AND A BIOPSY OF 2 OUT OF TEN CORES POSITIVE FOR CANCER. I WAS STAGED AS T1C UNTIL I HAD THE SURGERY AND THE PATHOLOGIC STAGE WAS T3A. THE PROSTATE WAS 75% INVOLVED WITH EXTRAPROSTATIC EXTENSION, PERINEURAL INVASION, POSITIVE MARGIN, AND A GLEASON 7. A FAR CRY FROM A T1C AND A RELATIVELY LOW PSA AS COMPARED TO SOME OTHERS WHO HAVE POSTED HERE. ALTHOUGH PSA IS VERY IMPORTANT, IT IS ONLY AN INDICATOR. SEVERAL OTHER DIAGNOSTIC FACTORS MUST ALSO BE CONSIDERED IN CONJUNCTION WITH PSA TO PAINT A CLEAR PICTURE OF THE CANCER. I AM SURE OTHERS MAY DISAGREE WITH ME BUT THATS HOW I SEE IT AND HOW MY FIGHT WITH CANCER HAS BEEN SO FAR. GOOD LUCK WITH THE SURGERY AND LET US KNOW HOW THINGS TURN OUT.

    Thanks for all the help.
    Thanks for all the help. We will continue on the diet. It definitely will give us a heads up on what I am sure is our next fight, heart disease (getting old is not wonderful).

    As to our surgeon, you are right, he may be including laproscopy ones in that. He stated that he does 3 per day for Kaiser, but they have only had the machine for 3 years so that would not add up. He practiced prior to that in Europe. We will ask.

    Bronx52, your story scares the crap out of me. Just when you start to get your head wrapped around this there is something else to worry about-surgery patho report but we will cross that when it comes. Good Luck to you. We will have to wait for surgery for at least 2 more months but that is ok-we can wait for the surgeon. Again thanks.

    kathy
  • hopeful and optimistic
    hopeful and optimistic Member Posts: 2,346 Member
    #8
    awife said:

    Thanks for all the help.
    Thanks for all the help. We will continue on the diet. It definitely will give us a heads up on what I am sure is our next fight, heart disease (getting old is not wonderful).

    As to our surgeon, you are right, he may be including laproscopy ones in that. He stated that he does 3 per day for Kaiser, but they have only had the machine for 3 years so that would not add up. He practiced prior to that in Europe. We will ask.

    Bronx52, your story scares the crap out of me. Just when you start to get your head wrapped around this there is something else to worry about-surgery patho report but we will cross that when it comes. Good Luck to you. We will have to wait for surgery for at least 2 more months but that is ok-we can wait for the surgeon. Again thanks.

    kathy

    As I understand robotic is one type
    of laproscopy. There is also open....some comments...the surgeon may have been trained in europe, and done surgeries there........additionally, sometimes all the surgeries done by the paticipating surgeons are presented-.

    How many robotics does he do a year........did you ask about success rates....I know that Kaiser has support groups...you may wish to speak to others at this group.

    Also there are other support groups in the la area, they for the most part are informational oriented.....and well worth attending.

    There are others who have had surgery at Kaiser....you may wish to post the docs name with hopes of getting feedback.

    Do lot's of research

    Ira
  • BRONX52
    BRONX52 Member Posts: 156
    #9
    awife said:

    Thanks for all the help.
    Thanks for all the help. We will continue on the diet. It definitely will give us a heads up on what I am sure is our next fight, heart disease (getting old is not wonderful).

    As to our surgeon, you are right, he may be including laproscopy ones in that. He stated that he does 3 per day for Kaiser, but they have only had the machine for 3 years so that would not add up. He practiced prior to that in Europe. We will ask.

    Bronx52, your story scares the crap out of me. Just when you start to get your head wrapped around this there is something else to worry about-surgery patho report but we will cross that when it comes. Good Luck to you. We will have to wait for surgery for at least 2 more months but that is ok-we can wait for the surgeon. Again thanks.

    kathy

    KATHY
    DIDN'T MEAN TO SCARE YOU BUT JUST WANTED YOU TO KNOW THAT THERE ARE SO MANY OUTCOMES POSSIBLE WHEN FIGHTING THIS BEAST.YOU JUST NEVER KNOW HOW THINGS WILL WORK OUT. I SHARED MY JOURNEY. YOURS COULD BE TOTALLY DIFFERENT. TAKE CARE AND BEST WISHES FOR A SUCCESSFUL TREATMENT.

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