To IMRT or not IMRT

mrspjd

hopeful and optimistic said:

Capsicum
Has there been a study that validates this?

Also, the person who was tested, I guess a biopsy that did not show cancer in the six and one year period....very frequent testing. Well there still is cancer even though it was not dectected.

I had a second biopsy which did not show cancer, but I still have cancer. I did not take any Capsicum.

Frankly I would rather stay with medical expertise. I have confidence in the medical profession..

Ira

food for thought - an open mind
I, for one, am not in any way suggesting that any one food might be a cure for cancer, and anyone considering rushing out to try a particular food to "cure" their cancer should be cautioned/warned to discuss this with their doctor and do their own research...that is why I posted a few scientific studies. Any other poster on this discussion board is welcome to do the research and post studies posing opposite or contrary findings...medical science does not base their research findings on individual personal stories, i.e., "I eat/ate lots of capsaicin, tomato sauce, green tea, chili peppers (whatever), etc. and it did not cure MY cancer (or--'I still got cancer'), and, therefore, it does not work!"

From the many posts on this discussion board related to diet and PCa, and all cancers for that matter, I think we can agree that a healthy diet, and some foods in particular, may have some cancer prevention benefits, or at the very least, heart health benefits.

If you're not already familiar with TED, it is a symposium for the best and brightest that science has to offer. Here is some food for thought (no pun intended) from a recent TED presentation on this very subject, but a WORD OF CAUTION: ONLY VIEW THIS IF YOU HAVE AN OPEN MIND...

http://www.wimp.com/starvecancer/

Kongo

hopeful and optimistic said:

Needle Biopsy
I read about needle biopsy and the possible spread of cancer. I don't have the documentation available, however needle biopsies don't spread cancer. Prehaps one of the posters has this information readily available.

Ira

Biopsy and PCa Spread
Ira, I am not sure about your comment that needle biopsies don't spread cancer. I think the jury may still be out on this subject. When I consulted with my oncologist during my research phase he mentioned that he felt that in post RP pathologies, he noted cancer growing in the areas where the needle biopsies were done. If you google the subject about spreading PCa through biopsy or surgery there is a lot of information that makes you wonder if we really know what we're doing in this area.

While I believe that the value of a biopsy probably outweighs any risk to spreading the cancer, I wish there was another way of positively ascertaining the presence and extent of prostate cancer without a biopsy. Another thing my oncologist said, this time in relation to breast cancer which he termed a "brother/sister" disease with PCa...is that he seldom saw metasasis of breast cancer until after surgery or biopsy...

My opinion, and its more of a gut feel than anything else, is that cutting around a tumor capillary risks launching cancer cells into the bloodstream.

The Naturalist

My uninhibited opinion on the Capsicum views
Since I mentioned the Capsicum in this forum after Hochbob said "I am looking for something that may not exist, or doesn't exist," I feel that some members here believe that anything outside the medical establishment is probably outlandish. And that prostate cancer patient who posted that was taking high "concentrated" doses of Capsicum - certainly much more than my ex-Mexican wife who had never had a meal without Jalapeno peppers - was probably exxagerating his results. Well, maybe. But Capsicum in high doses may keep cancer cells "Inactive" -assuming the proper dose is established, then "watchful waiting" may become a standardized future therapy.

Does the scientific chemotherapy that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars do better? No.
Cancer relapses occur later in most cases. But because that therapy is done by the medical/pharmaceutical industry, it is considered valid because the industry producers brochures, testimonials from doctors with shares in those industries or research grants, etc. And the chemical used in "chemotherapy wreck many body organs, and no doubt shorten lives considerably, something that Capsicum surely doesn't do. It is not corrosive, and there is no overdose. Does it kill cancer? No, and no other therapy does. They only kill
the cancerous cells temporarily, but the person has cells with the same genetic disposition to change other healthy cells to cancerous. What we all get in prostate cancer treatment is a temporary reprieve - not a cure-
in most cases. And if Capsicum can do that, why not try it?

But there are no patents on Cayenne, Red Hot Chili peppers, and Capsicum. And, based on supply and demand, and if Capsicum can keep cancer cells dormant for life, that will bring the extinction of the medical/ pharmaceutical industry. Our cancers, therefore, support billion dollar companies on Wall Street, and executives make millions in bonuses from our suffering. I have written articles about the excesses in the Health Industry in the major newspapers of the U.S. and Europe under my name, and some of those were re-published in Thailand, India and Singapore, as proof that Americans who cannot afford the exorbitant profit
laden therapies and surgeries here go to the above countries and have their operations there for only 15% of what it would have cost them here, and with the same quality care. Singapore's is actually better of what we have here. Our health-care system, therefore, is profit-driven - not a compassionate system to help us! We get a lease on life at astronomical costs, and we must think what affect that has on the recommendations on our medical decisions.

Back in the 70's and 80's doctors here laughing out at Acupuncture as the hedge hog therapy. Now it is part of most major hospitals. I believe Capsicum has potential, but hot peppers are in oversupply, and nobody will
invest in any therapy from them because there are no profit margins to match the chemo of Wall Street chemical giants . But for those who feel that their survival is at stake, they should go for it, as well as for any medical trial that they can be accepted. The point: Keep our mind open, and don't invest all our trust about your health on those who will become rich selling you hope as science. I believe only in science that comes without a profit motive attached. Period. And I speak here both as a cancer survivor, and as an academic who has followed the medical trends, and the growth of the health industry into a mechanical and chemical golden plated production line.

142

The Naturalist said:

My uninhibited opinion on the Capsicum views
Since I mentioned the Capsicum in this forum after Hochbob said "I am looking for something that may not exist, or doesn't exist," I feel that some members here believe that anything outside the medical establishment is probably outlandish. And that prostate cancer patient who posted that was taking high "concentrated" doses of Capsicum - certainly much more than my ex-Mexican wife who had never had a meal without Jalapeno peppers - was probably exxagerating his results. Well, maybe. But Capsicum in high doses may keep cancer cells "Inactive" -assuming the proper dose is established, then "watchful waiting" may become a standardized future therapy.

Does the scientific chemotherapy that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars do better? No.
Cancer relapses occur later in most cases. But because that therapy is done by the medical/pharmaceutical industry, it is considered valid because the industry producers brochures, testimonials from doctors with shares in those industries or research grants, etc. And the chemical used in "chemotherapy wreck many body organs, and no doubt shorten lives considerably, something that Capsicum surely doesn't do. It is not corrosive, and there is no overdose. Does it kill cancer? No, and no other therapy does. They only kill
the cancerous cells temporarily, but the person has cells with the same genetic disposition to change other healthy cells to cancerous. What we all get in prostate cancer treatment is a temporary reprieve - not a cure-
in most cases. And if Capsicum can do that, why not try it?

But there are no patents on Cayenne, Red Hot Chili peppers, and Capsicum. And, based on supply and demand, and if Capsicum can keep cancer cells dormant for life, that will bring the extinction of the medical/ pharmaceutical industry. Our cancers, therefore, support billion dollar companies on Wall Street, and executives make millions in bonuses from our suffering. I have written articles about the excesses in the Health Industry in the major newspapers of the U.S. and Europe under my name, and some of those were re-published in Thailand, India and Singapore, as proof that Americans who cannot afford the exorbitant profit
laden therapies and surgeries here go to the above countries and have their operations there for only 15% of what it would have cost them here, and with the same quality care. Singapore's is actually better of what we have here. Our health-care system, therefore, is profit-driven - not a compassionate system to help us! We get a lease on life at astronomical costs, and we must think what affect that has on the recommendations on our medical decisions.

Back in the 70's and 80's doctors here laughing out at Acupuncture as the hedge hog therapy. Now it is part of most major hospitals. I believe Capsicum has potential, but hot peppers are in oversupply, and nobody will
invest in any therapy from them because there are no profit margins to match the chemo of Wall Street chemical giants . But for those who feel that their survival is at stake, they should go for it, as well as for any medical trial that they can be accepted. The point: Keep our mind open, and don't invest all our trust about your health on those who will become rich selling you hope as science. I believe only in science that comes without a profit motive attached. Period. And I speak here both as a cancer survivor, and as an academic who has followed the medical trends, and the growth of the health industry into a mechanical and chemical golden plated production line.

Hot peppers
An early life of hot peppers burned a number of holes in my stomach and intestines, and caused a lifetime of spastic colon.

I got PCa anyway at 56.

I don't see evidence of a good result to having torched my gut.

hopeful and optimistic

The Naturalist said:

My uninhibited opinion on the Capsicum views
Since I mentioned the Capsicum in this forum after Hochbob said "I am looking for something that may not exist, or doesn't exist," I feel that some members here believe that anything outside the medical establishment is probably outlandish. And that prostate cancer patient who posted that was taking high "concentrated" doses of Capsicum - certainly much more than my ex-Mexican wife who had never had a meal without Jalapeno peppers - was probably exxagerating his results. Well, maybe. But Capsicum in high doses may keep cancer cells "Inactive" -assuming the proper dose is established, then "watchful waiting" may become a standardized future therapy.

Does the scientific chemotherapy that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars do better? No.
Cancer relapses occur later in most cases. But because that therapy is done by the medical/pharmaceutical industry, it is considered valid because the industry producers brochures, testimonials from doctors with shares in those industries or research grants, etc. And the chemical used in "chemotherapy wreck many body organs, and no doubt shorten lives considerably, something that Capsicum surely doesn't do. It is not corrosive, and there is no overdose. Does it kill cancer? No, and no other therapy does. They only kill
the cancerous cells temporarily, but the person has cells with the same genetic disposition to change other healthy cells to cancerous. What we all get in prostate cancer treatment is a temporary reprieve - not a cure-
in most cases. And if Capsicum can do that, why not try it?

But there are no patents on Cayenne, Red Hot Chili peppers, and Capsicum. And, based on supply and demand, and if Capsicum can keep cancer cells dormant for life, that will bring the extinction of the medical/ pharmaceutical industry. Our cancers, therefore, support billion dollar companies on Wall Street, and executives make millions in bonuses from our suffering. I have written articles about the excesses in the Health Industry in the major newspapers of the U.S. and Europe under my name, and some of those were re-published in Thailand, India and Singapore, as proof that Americans who cannot afford the exorbitant profit
laden therapies and surgeries here go to the above countries and have their operations there for only 15% of what it would have cost them here, and with the same quality care. Singapore's is actually better of what we have here. Our health-care system, therefore, is profit-driven - not a compassionate system to help us! We get a lease on life at astronomical costs, and we must think what affect that has on the recommendations on our medical decisions.

Back in the 70's and 80's doctors here laughing out at Acupuncture as the hedge hog therapy. Now it is part of most major hospitals. I believe Capsicum has potential, but hot peppers are in oversupply, and nobody will
invest in any therapy from them because there are no profit margins to match the chemo of Wall Street chemical giants . But for those who feel that their survival is at stake, they should go for it, as well as for any medical trial that they can be accepted. The point: Keep our mind open, and don't invest all our trust about your health on those who will become rich selling you hope as science. I believe only in science that comes without a profit motive attached. Period. And I speak here both as a cancer survivor, and as an academic who has followed the medical trends, and the growth of the health industry into a mechanical and chemical golden plated production line.

My opinion
There may be something out there that will benefit us, however I do not wish to spend any of my time and effort on anything that is unproven or not scientifically based. Instead I want to put my full effort in finding the best treatment based on scientific information.

For example, what if I said that I had jelly bean soup which I think accounted for better biopsy results......would you start drinking this soup with capiscum sprinkled on it.

Ira

hopeful and optimistic

Kongo said:

Biopsy and PCa Spread
Ira, I am not sure about your comment that needle biopsies don't spread cancer. I think the jury may still be out on this subject. When I consulted with my oncologist during my research phase he mentioned that he felt that in post RP pathologies, he noted cancer growing in the areas where the needle biopsies were done. If you google the subject about spreading PCa through biopsy or surgery there is a lot of information that makes you wonder if we really know what we're doing in this area.

While I believe that the value of a biopsy probably outweighs any risk to spreading the cancer, I wish there was another way of positively ascertaining the presence and extent of prostate cancer without a biopsy. Another thing my oncologist said, this time in relation to breast cancer which he termed a "brother/sister" disease with PCa...is that he seldom saw metasasis of breast cancer until after surgery or biopsy...

My opinion, and its more of a gut feel than anything else, is that cutting around a tumor capillary risks launching cancer cells into the bloodstream.

needle biopsy - disease spread
I am very interested in this subject since the protocol for my active treatment is to have a 3.0 tesla , a high definition MRI and then three dimension transrectal directed biopsy based the information obtained in the MRI.......the biopsy is the main diagnostic tool that is being used , PSA's are a low second in measuring any disease progression, so the plan is to stick a lot of needles in my biopsy over time.

I haar talk from various people that a needle biopsy causes disease progression.

The surgeon that I had seen at UCLA stated in a lecture that attended with him that the needle biopsy does not spread the disease.

Needle biopsies are the standard.

There had been a discussion at this site several months ago. There was some good information that was stated......the conclusion was --does not spread cancer.......I am unable to find this discussion.

Today I checked the internet for information. There is a site that I go to often called pubmed.com . This site is medically oriented and is a great site...I really did not see a discussion about this topic.

I also looked outside the pubmed site......there were various institutions that were biased since they were selling some other diagnostic tool, that mentioned the ill effects of needle biopsies. Since these organizations have a different agenda I did not believe the informationto be valid.

I am interested in hearing scientifically valid and unbiased information that shows or not shows that needle biopsies spread cancer.

Thanks

Ira

Kongo

mrspjd said:

food for thought - an open mind
I, for one, am not in any way suggesting that any one food might be a cure for cancer, and anyone considering rushing out to try a particular food to "cure" their cancer should be cautioned/warned to discuss this with their doctor and do their own research...that is why I posted a few scientific studies. Any other poster on this discussion board is welcome to do the research and post studies posing opposite or contrary findings...medical science does not base their research findings on individual personal stories, i.e., "I eat/ate lots of capsaicin, tomato sauce, green tea, chili peppers (whatever), etc. and it did not cure MY cancer (or--'I still got cancer'), and, therefore, it does not work!"

From the many posts on this discussion board related to diet and PCa, and all cancers for that matter, I think we can agree that a healthy diet, and some foods in particular, may have some cancer prevention benefits, or at the very least, heart health benefits.

If you're not already familiar with TED, it is a symposium for the best and brightest that science has to offer. Here is some food for thought (no pun intended) from a recent TED presentation on this very subject, but a WORD OF CAUTION: ONLY VIEW THIS IF YOU HAVE AN OPEN MIND...

http://www.wimp.com/starvecancer/

Great Information
Mrs,

Thanks for posting this information about angiogenesis and its application to cancer. The video made a lot of sense and the charts in the video which compared angiogenesis effects of some prescription medications to certain food types was quite compelling. I think this is a "must see" for all men with PCa who are considering AS or are wondering about potential recurrence after treatment.

Like any new approach, leveraging recent insights into genes, and what is going on at the molecular level will have its share of skeptics, nay-sayers, and critics and there will be those who will wait for the ten year studies before making decisions about what to eat or not eat in their personal life but the clear and cogent presntation in the video you referenced made a great deal of sense to me.

bdhilton

The “facts” you state
The “facts” you state are about what I see with the statistics with guys with negative margins getting Salvage after surgery….More importantly, how do you feel about the pending IMRT? Does your gut tell you it is a good choice? My 2 cents is that if you feel like this is a good or bad process for you then it is…Quality of life is certainly an important items for me today…. I had surgery 19 weeks ago and based on my pathology both the surgeon and my urologist (at first) told me to get Adjunct radiation (positive margin and seminal invasion)…. My first 2 PSAs have been 0 and it would be nice to have 0’s the next 30 years or so (I am 55)….After a long talk with my urologist oncologist he agreed with me that he would not have radiation unless he had a reoccurrence and told me that IMRT for Adjunct or salvage had better statics results for guys with positives margins….Now my spiritual adviser told me at the beginning of this journey to throw all statistical data out the window and go with my gut as you can be on either side of statics….So again what does your “gut” tell you? Go with it….. What I have changed in my life is what I can control and that is my diet, exercise and how I deal with stress in general….I believe these things can extend your “quality” of life…. Best to you in your journey….

The Naturalist

My IMRT view
I had IMR myself 3 years ago, and the way it was explained to me, and the way I believe it is, it works this way: Human cells have a span of life, and then die. But the body replenishes them with new cells. During IMRT radiation therapy, healthy human cells die along with cancerous cells. But our body continues to produce healthy cells to replace those that were killed by radiation, but the cancerous human cells cannot reproduce and replenish
those killed by radiation. After 8 weeks x 5 treatments of 2 Gy each day, for a total of 40 treatments, and a total delivery of 80 Gy of radiation on the prostate gland, all the cancerous cells are gone, while the body has reproduced and replaced the healthy cells destroyed by radiation. PSA levels should come down progressively, as PSA hormones still in the bloodstream would die off.

What is the future holds after radiation therapy? Nobody knows, as some people are genetically more prone to have a recurrence than others. Some people who had and treated prostate cancers may not have a recurrence, but they may develop other cancers, or may remain
healthy and have a long life afterward.

On a personal basis, I have become a mostly vegetarian person to avoid the hormone and antibiotic laden meat and poultry, live mostly on homemade food, jog 2.5 miles almost daily, and do other gym exercises to maintain body muscle. I avoid high pollution areas -like downtown, have top air cleaners in my living space, and keep a positive attitude of life.
And if there is a recurrence, I will have another IMRT. I don't believe that there is any natural remedy for cancer now, but for those who had other therapies but they may found themselves on the fence, other therapies and a strong belief may produce a body reaction that
may work. The mind may be at times a powerful inhibitor. And that may explain some medical
healing mysteries that I have seen on various documentaries in my life. People who fight deseases bravely win more battles than those who just give up!

tdorman

HochBob
My situation was very similar to yours. Had a RP in 1996. Had non detactable PSA for 7 years. In 2003 psa went to .4. My surgeon told me to have radiation asap. I had 43 hits of IMRT radiation. IMRT had no impact on erections or incontinence. Just had a PSA last week and PSA still non detectable. My surgeon did not recomend IMRT. I chose IMRT after some research. In 1996 IMRT was not as available as today. There were only 2 places offering IMRT in the entire Tampa Bay area.

Good Luck

gkoper

The Naturalist said:

My IMRT view
I had IMR myself 3 years ago, and the way it was explained to me, and the way I believe it is, it works this way: Human cells have a span of life, and then die. But the body replenishes them with new cells. During IMRT radiation therapy, healthy human cells die along with cancerous cells. But our body continues to produce healthy cells to replace those that were killed by radiation, but the cancerous human cells cannot reproduce and replenish
those killed by radiation. After 8 weeks x 5 treatments of 2 Gy each day, for a total of 40 treatments, and a total delivery of 80 Gy of radiation on the prostate gland, all the cancerous cells are gone, while the body has reproduced and replaced the healthy cells destroyed by radiation. PSA levels should come down progressively, as PSA hormones still in the bloodstream would die off.

What is the future holds after radiation therapy? Nobody knows, as some people are genetically more prone to have a recurrence than others. Some people who had and treated prostate cancers may not have a recurrence, but they may develop other cancers, or may remain
healthy and have a long life afterward.

On a personal basis, I have become a mostly vegetarian person to avoid the hormone and antibiotic laden meat and poultry, live mostly on homemade food, jog 2.5 miles almost daily, and do other gym exercises to maintain body muscle. I avoid high pollution areas -like downtown, have top air cleaners in my living space, and keep a positive attitude of life.
And if there is a recurrence, I will have another IMRT. I don't believe that there is any natural remedy for cancer now, but for those who had other therapies but they may found themselves on the fence, other therapies and a strong belief may produce a body reaction that
may work. The mind may be at times a powerful inhibitor. And that may explain some medical
healing mysteries that I have seen on various documentaries in my life. People who fight deseases bravely win more battles than those who just give up!

Imrt
Naturalist-----you appear to be making many healthy choices-----but when you say you would do IMRT again if needed--------is that possible? I had surgery & IMRT and was told the IMRT could not be repeated. Hormones & or chemo would be next. Did your doc say something different?
George

hochbob

tdorman said:

HochBob
My situation was very similar to yours. Had a RP in 1996. Had non detactable PSA for 7 years. In 2003 psa went to .4. My surgeon told me to have radiation asap. I had 43 hits of IMRT radiation. IMRT had no impact on erections or incontinence. Just had a PSA last week and PSA still non detectable. My surgeon did not recomend IMRT. I chose IMRT after some research. In 1996 IMRT was not as available as today. There were only 2 places offering IMRT in the entire Tampa Bay area.

Good Luck

An Update
T,

Thanks for sharing your experience. Did you have positive or negative margins post RP?After much thought and another consult with my Urologist, I/we have decided to wait and watch. I am scheduled for another PSA in 3 months. Hopefully your PSA will remain undetectable. I grew up in St. Pete, BA - UF (go Gators!), MS - USF (go Bulls!). All the best.

Kongo

hochbob said:

An Update
T,

Thanks for sharing your experience. Did you have positive or negative margins post RP?After much thought and another consult with my Urologist, I/we have decided to wait and watch. I am scheduled for another PSA in 3 months. Hopefully your PSA will remain undetectable. I grew up in St. Pete, BA - UF (go Gators!), MS - USF (go Bulls!). All the best.

Choices
hochbob,

I know what a tough decison this was for you but you've made it and that should give you some relief. I think if I were in your situation I would wait awhile too but I'm sure you realize that your cancer is back somewhere. I've recently read that it can take up to six years or longer (or never) for PCA that recurs to metastise so keeping an eye on it with PSA checks every three months is a good idea.

Since you're going AS on this turn, I'm wondering if you chose to make any dietary changes that might help slow or reverse the cancer. I think mentioned in an earlier post eliminating dairy led to a quick and dramatic drop in my own PSA scores. MRSPJD had an intriguing post about capsaicin and it's helpfu effect. I think there are likely plenty of natural products that can help...all drugs that treat PCa don't have to come from a laboratory.

There is a test called a Prostacint scan where they inject you with a radioactive isotope with a short half life and let it sit for a few days and then scan you for where it has attached itself to cancer. Sort of like the bone scan but different. Anyway, it is supposed to help identify if there are any spots where the PCa has metastasised and that could be helpful as your ponder future treatment options.

Best of luck and keep us informed of how things go.