CEA of 5 and over BEFORE SURGERY,,,, Have you heard this?

dianetavegia

I was looking up natural cures such as licorice and black tea and saw a doctor's article that said 'those with a CEA of 5 or higher pre surgery were four times more likely to have a recurrence of their colon cancer'.

Have you ever heard such a remark?


I'm sorry that I didn't save the link. Hubby's laptop caught a horrible virus through the school and he had to use mine to put some files on a flash drive, etc.

I do not know my presurgery CEA nor do I WANT to know it, but it's been over a year now and this is the first time I've heard anything like this.

tootsie1

New to me
I've not heard it, either. And believe me, I'm the kind of person who has searched for ways to predict whether or not a person will have a recurrence. I'll be interested to see if anyone else has read this.

*hugs*
Gail

dianetavegia

My computer is so old that I
My computer is so old that I have it set not to save my history and I cannot remember where I saw it. I followed a link off a licorice link. DRAT!

PhillieG

Internet
Diane, you know that you can't believe everything you read on the Internet.
CEA is not a very reliable marker for cancer either.
-phil

Lovekitties

PhillieG said:

Internet
Diane, you know that you can't believe everything you read on the Internet.
CEA is not a very reliable marker for cancer either.
-phil

I agree with Phil
From everything I have read about CEA it is not always reliable. A 'normal' score does not mean you don't have cancer.

I have never seen anything which links the score to potential for recurrance.

All I do know, is that no one on the planet knows absolutely about cancer...

Marie

thready

dianetavegia said:

My computer is so old that I
My computer is so old that I have it set not to save my history and I cannot remember where I saw it. I followed a link off a licorice link. DRAT!

Cea levels
Diane,
I went out and about in cyberspace to try to find your information. I did not find anything about a CEA level of 5 before surgery to be an indicator of recurrence, but I did find that high levels of 15 or more MIGHT indicate more advanced problems. Surgery and PET scans were recommended.

I also thought about all those people who have had really high CEA levels and are NED now.

CEA's can be very skittish and they are looking at the half life of these markers a lot more now and not just the actual number, so I think even the really smart people have troubles with them.

Take care.
Jan

Shayenne

Lovekitties said:

I agree with Phil
From everything I have read about CEA it is not always reliable. A 'normal' score does not mean you don't have cancer.

I have never seen anything which links the score to potential for recurrance.

All I do know, is that no one on the planet knows absolutely about cancer...

Marie

My Onc
Said the same thing, and said to stop reading things on the internet, because it's hard to decipher what's true or not. My CEA was going down, went down to 69, and now after 3 more chemo's, it's about 130, though my liver tumors continue to shrink, and nothing else but a few teeny tiny "nodules" showing no activity showed up on my lung, she said she will find out why my cea went up, I just hope it isn't because of the supplements I been taking, since I am taking probiotics, flax seed oil during treatments, and it seems to have spiked alittle since I started taking them.

Hugsss!
~Donna

thready

Shayenne said:

My Onc
Said the same thing, and said to stop reading things on the internet, because it's hard to decipher what's true or not. My CEA was going down, went down to 69, and now after 3 more chemo's, it's about 130, though my liver tumors continue to shrink, and nothing else but a few teeny tiny "nodules" showing no activity showed up on my lung, she said she will find out why my cea went up, I just hope it isn't because of the supplements I been taking, since I am taking probiotics, flax seed oil during treatments, and it seems to have spiked alittle since I started taking them.

Hugsss!
~Donna

CEA's
Donna,
My dr and others have told me that CEA's can go up with chemo and stay that way for a while. Also if there is any inflamation because of cell repair she said the CEA can go up.

It is good to hear that your tumors contiue to shrink!!!

Take care
Jan

Shayenne

thready said:

CEA's
Donna,
My dr and others have told me that CEA's can go up with chemo and stay that way for a while. Also if there is any inflamation because of cell repair she said the CEA can go up.

It is good to hear that your tumors contiue to shrink!!!

Take care
Jan

Thanks Jan!
Yeah, she said it could be a number of reasons, and really didn't seemed that concerned, she was going to start taking me off the Irinotecan, but she said until she sees "a drop" she's keeping me on it for now.


Hugsss!
~Donna

dianetavegia

"This study shows that
"This study shows that patients thought to have early colorectal cancer without detectable spread to other organs but with elevated CEA levels may benefit from chemotherapy given in conjunction with surgery to improve their chance of long-term survival," concluded colorectal surgeon Francis Seow-Choen, MD, at Singapore General Hospital. In the study, 85 of 261 patients developed recurrences of colorectal cancer. Of those patients, 5.3 percent had isolated local recurrence, 21 percent had isolated distant metastasis and 5.7 percent had both local recurrence and distant metastasis. Patients with distant metastatic recurrence had a significantly higher CEA than those without recurrence: No patient with a CEA level of less than 1 ng/ml developed metastatic recurrence in this series.

Twenty-three percent of all patients with a raised CEA above 5 ng/ml developed a metastatic lesion within two years, compared with 2.1 percent of patients with a CEA below 5 ng/ml. The American Society of Colon and Rectal Surgeons (ASCRS) is the leading professional society of colorectal surgeons.

ASCRS represents more than 1,000 board-certified colon and rectal surgeons and other surgeons dedicated to advancing and promoting the science and practice of the treatment of patients with diseases and disorders affecting the colon, rectum, and anus. Diseases of the Colon & Rectum features original papers that significantly advance knowledge within the field of colon and rectal surgery. Contents of the journal include case reports, technical notes and updates on recent advances in colorectal treatments. For more information, access the ASCRS Website at www.fascrs.org, or a directory of colorectal surgeons may be accessed at www.fascrs.org/directory. * * * SOURCE: The American Society of Colon and Rectal Surgeons



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Not the article I had seen but sort of close.

beachinmom

dianetavegia said:

"This study shows that
"This study shows that patients thought to have early colorectal cancer without detectable spread to other organs but with elevated CEA levels may benefit from chemotherapy given in conjunction with surgery to improve their chance of long-term survival," concluded colorectal surgeon Francis Seow-Choen, MD, at Singapore General Hospital. In the study, 85 of 261 patients developed recurrences of colorectal cancer. Of those patients, 5.3 percent had isolated local recurrence, 21 percent had isolated distant metastasis and 5.7 percent had both local recurrence and distant metastasis. Patients with distant metastatic recurrence had a significantly higher CEA than those without recurrence: No patient with a CEA level of less than 1 ng/ml developed metastatic recurrence in this series.

Twenty-three percent of all patients with a raised CEA above 5 ng/ml developed a metastatic lesion within two years, compared with 2.1 percent of patients with a CEA below 5 ng/ml. The American Society of Colon and Rectal Surgeons (ASCRS) is the leading professional society of colorectal surgeons.

ASCRS represents more than 1,000 board-certified colon and rectal surgeons and other surgeons dedicated to advancing and promoting the science and practice of the treatment of patients with diseases and disorders affecting the colon, rectum, and anus. Diseases of the Colon & Rectum features original papers that significantly advance knowledge within the field of colon and rectal surgery. Contents of the journal include case reports, technical notes and updates on recent advances in colorectal treatments. For more information, access the ASCRS Website at www.fascrs.org, or a directory of colorectal surgeons may be accessed at www.fascrs.org/directory. * * * SOURCE: The American Society of Colon and Rectal Surgeons



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Not the article I had seen but sort of close.

I think you are right Diane
I looked around last night and saw some studies that indicate this as well. It seemed to say that if your preop cea was 5 or higher that you were more likely to recur. What i also saw and found interesting for myself is that "poorly diff" tumors were less likely to have an eleveated cea.....not quite sure how they played into the mix. I guess i know why my cea was .6 at diagnosis yet i had a 2.5 cm tumor.

Shayenne

beachinmom said:

I think you are right Diane
I looked around last night and saw some studies that indicate this as well. It seemed to say that if your preop cea was 5 or higher that you were more likely to recur. What i also saw and found interesting for myself is that "poorly diff" tumors were less likely to have an eleveated cea.....not quite sure how they played into the mix. I guess i know why my cea was .6 at diagnosis yet i had a 2.5 cm tumor.

So....
... Does this mean I have cancer somewhere else my onc isn't picking up? why would my liver tumors still be shrinking?

Hugsss!
~Donna

Nana b

Shayenne said:

So....
... Does this mean I have cancer somewhere else my onc isn't picking up? why would my liver tumors still be shrinking?

Hugsss!
~Donna

Don't worry Donna, Shrinking is good!
My CEA level pre surgery was 150, it is now about 2....my onc tells me anything under 5 is normal above 5 there is a possibility of cancer still in the body...and mind you under 5 does not mean that there isn't something going on in the body....either. So with that said. I will just wait and see.......

k1

beachinmom said:

I think you are right Diane
I looked around last night and saw some studies that indicate this as well. It seemed to say that if your preop cea was 5 or higher that you were more likely to recur. What i also saw and found interesting for myself is that "poorly diff" tumors were less likely to have an eleveated cea.....not quite sure how they played into the mix. I guess i know why my cea was .6 at diagnosis yet i had a 2.5 cm tumor.

CEA levels before/after surgery
My CEA level was 2.5 before surgery and they removed a large 6 cm tumor. A few weeks after surgery my CEA was 1.0

My colorectal oncologist said that for 20 percent of the population, CEA is a meaningless marker and that I belong to that 20 percent who won't get useful information about my cancer from CEA tests. And my surgeon, a colorectal specialist as well, said also before my surgery when he saw the low number that I would be one of those patients whose CEA was meaningless because it was not elevated to a high level even when I had an advanced tumor.

So if for 20 percent of the population the CEA level is not meaningful marker, that's a pretty big group who need further types of tests to assess the state of their cancer.