Us and them

Unknown

This is really in reply to Claudia's post about less than enthusiastic cheering for her five year mark. These thoughts may be off base so please let me know, ladies. Anyway, I think the worse thing about that silence on the part of the untouched by C folk is that it exposes the gulf that lies between them and me. It is a gulf that we can say they should cross. But it is a reminder of how I am different, and that hurts. I want to cross that gulf. It does feel good to come here where sisters understand but I want to exercise caution in over-cloistering ourselves in that understanding. Because in some small way we are enlarging the gulf between us and them. Reminding ourselves that we are not them any more. And that hurts. For instance, I felt that gulf when I went to chemo and there were people in the waiting room. I would check them out...are they a patient or a accompanyer? And if they were "healthy" instead of a chemo reciever, I felt little pangs of pain to see them, even a little animosity, probably best described - jealousy. I wanted to be them! But I am not. And that hurts more than their lack of understanding, calls up all the pain of DX all over again. I do think that now I am more cognizant of other types of gulfs that exist between people AND more able to cross closer to them.
Claudia, you deserve so many cheers. Because you have gotten through something so difficult that few can understand it. I certainly celebrate with you! - love, Joyce

Unknown

Joyce, I totally know what you mean. I have been wondering lately if I am cloistering myself too. I look forward to my support group every three weeks, and I spend every evening and weekends chatting with our fellow cancer survivors and caregivers. Its the only time that I feel like I'm with people I can relate to. I do feel different than non "c" people too. And I remember when I was having chemo I also felt a bit jealouse of the normal people including the nurses and docs. I sat for hours with poisen dripping into my vein feeling sicker by the minute and I would see them chatting with eachother,acting happy, bringing back lunch etc...being normal. I would wish I was them. I don't know what to do about this. But perhaps it gets easier with time. Eil

chenheart

Awwwwww...I love you, Joyce!!! I echo your sentiments, and am in a quandry as to how to bridge the gulf between "them and us". And, truth be told~ I want to be one of THEM! sigh....

I think most of us know just how you feel about cancer and recovery and caregivers and chemo, etc etc etc....we here at "Hogwarts" will never quite know how the "Muggles" feel when they look at us.

Just know that we are an amazing group! I have come to feel closer to most of you, sight unseen, than those I am genetically related to!

Hugs and all good things to you, Joyce! And thank you for the heartfelt congratulations to me~ my heart is smiling....

Claudia

mgm42

I must be very strange, indeed. While I understand where you are coming from and the responders are coming from, I can't relate. I'm still Marilynn. I just happen to have C. That may change who I am physcially but it doesn't diminish my personality, my compassion for others, my joy in living, my love for my family. Plus, I've not run into the "shunning" which I seem to be hearing in the responses. Maybe it hasn't hit me yet???? But, I'm determined not to worry about it. Guess I'm strange, weird, call it what you will. Frankly, when I read some of these things, it flat out scares me. But, I'm firm in my resolve not to let C change me into someone who I am not. I do know that the depth of understanding I feel from the sisterhood is deeper and stronger than the undertanding of my non C friends. But, they are still compassionate toward my situation. Guess I'm just nuts or terribly fortunate. Love to all, Marilynn

Unknown

unknown said:

Joyce, I totally know what you mean. I have been wondering lately if I am cloistering myself too. I look forward to my support group every three weeks, and I spend every evening and weekends chatting with our fellow cancer survivors and caregivers. Its the only time that I feel like I'm with people I can relate to. I do feel different than non "c" people too. And I remember when I was having chemo I also felt a bit jealouse of the normal people including the nurses and docs. I sat for hours with poisen dripping into my vein feeling sicker by the minute and I would see them chatting with eachother,acting happy, bringing back lunch etc...being normal. I would wish I was them. I don't know what to do about this. But perhaps it gets easier with time. Eil

Oh, yeah, I forgot about the nurses. Not only would I envy them their happy exchanges, but their hair too. I felt like a dirty old man patient, checking out the nurses, looking not down their nurses smocks, but at their hairdos! Thanks for understanding. Love Joyce

Unknown

chenheart said:

Awwwwww...I love you, Joyce!!! I echo your sentiments, and am in a quandry as to how to bridge the gulf between "them and us". And, truth be told~ I want to be one of THEM! sigh....

I think most of us know just how you feel about cancer and recovery and caregivers and chemo, etc etc etc....we here at "Hogwarts" will never quite know how the "Muggles" feel when they look at us.

Just know that we are an amazing group! I have come to feel closer to most of you, sight unseen, than those I am genetically related to!

Hugs and all good things to you, Joyce! And thank you for the heartfelt congratulations to me~ my heart is smiling....

Claudia

Claudia, I wrote my post thinking of you and your post, hoping that what I said would be well recieved by you. I think we all do this - hold each other with such tenderness and consideration. Our need to express ourselves is always coupled with our need to care for and support the delicacies of our readers and it is this love that makes this board such an amazing place. In view of what we are discussing, even more amazingly, a positive place. All my love, Joyce

Unknown

mgm42 said:

I must be very strange, indeed. While I understand where you are coming from and the responders are coming from, I can't relate. I'm still Marilynn. I just happen to have C. That may change who I am physcially but it doesn't diminish my personality, my compassion for others, my joy in living, my love for my family. Plus, I've not run into the "shunning" which I seem to be hearing in the responses. Maybe it hasn't hit me yet???? But, I'm determined not to worry about it. Guess I'm strange, weird, call it what you will. Frankly, when I read some of these things, it flat out scares me. But, I'm firm in my resolve not to let C change me into someone who I am not. I do know that the depth of understanding I feel from the sisterhood is deeper and stronger than the undertanding of my non C friends. But, they are still compassionate toward my situation. Guess I'm just nuts or terribly fortunate. Love to all, Marilynn

Marilyn, call it weird if you want, but another word that applies is HEALTHY! Keep up the good attitude and keep sharing it. You spread your strength to all of us and I love it. Thanks, Joyce

RE

Hmmmm, let me see this post has made me think about a few things. My first thought is to be cautious when you think those folks in the lobby are healthy and cannot relate. I was one of them for 9 years as I remained in remission until Feb 07. I was in remission and looked good, but I understood what the hooked up patients were going though and I quietly had sympathy for those who were actively fighting their cancer. I too know some who don't know how to react to my cancer and that is okay because for them to understand they would have to have cancer. It's okay to be different then the "thems" really we are all different in some aspect. In an odd way my cancer has allowed me to help others both here and in my daily life and that is a good thing. To me cancer is just my lot in life, some have Diabetes, others have palsy and some have heart problems. These folks rally around each other too, it is a way to cope and I think it is healthy to a degree. If I were too become all consumed with my cancer status that would be very troublesome. I hope this makes some sense and does not sound strange. Many Hugs to all!

RE

KathiM

Joyce,
This truely is a prickly issue. I have found, 2 years post treatment, that I can only change my world. In the process, I accept that I cannot change others' basic feelings. I share my experience, when appropriate, but don't have it on the top of my list anymore, unlike when I was recovering, and was bald.
I agree with Marilynn and RE, I am still me, and cancer was just a part of my living experience. At first, I had to work at having this attitude, but now it's comfortable. If I think about it, I am still nervous about reoccurance, but push it aside as much as possible, to enjoy life.

I was talking with a fellow rectal cancer survivor (my other cancer) who also lost her rectum. She compared us to others with IBS and Chrone's disease (virtually bowel trouble all the time, forever), and said how lucky we are...

I don't compare myself to others, they have their own set of troubles. As I said in an earlier post, I try to live each day as a gift to myself, we never know when it's our last, as shown by the sudden death of both my ex-hubby at 62, and my daughter at 22...

Jealousy is no better for you than stress. Acceptance and pride in yourself is what makes life enjoyable..as the much-used saying goes:I have cancer, cancer does not have me...

Hugs, Kathi

Unknown

Joyce, and all you other sweet ladies;
perhaps I can lend a slightly different perspective to this discussion.
I am a 21 (22 in June) year breast cancer survivor. And let me tell you, I related to every post here.
But time does change things.
I am 'breastless' (no recon) and have been since 1988 when I lost my second breast. I went through it all; the healing issues, the chemo issues, the intimacy issues, the US and Them issues...and on and on...
But ALL those things are now and FINALLY non-issues with me. I will be 60 in June and the older I get the more comfortable with myself I become. And it was, in part, the BC 'work' I was forced to do that helped bring me where I am now. I thought I would never feel 'normal' again. I was WRONG. I am normal-PLUS. Better than normal. Ahead of just-normal, or however you want to look at it. I just know that 'it' is now just another 2-letter word, no longer the end of a 4-letter word that used to sum up my attitude (if you get my drift).
So, my point is, whatever issue you are facing at the moment, meet it head on, deal with it, and then put it behind you and MOVE ON. Because there is a lot of life out there and you don't want to let any of these things interfere with the living of yours for any longer that they really have to.
Just rest assured that you are growing and renewing every day and when you are 105 you won't care about any of this...unless you are an ancient history buff. LOL Hugs to every one of you.
Zahalene

Unknown

unknown said:

Joyce, and all you other sweet ladies;
perhaps I can lend a slightly different perspective to this discussion.
I am a 21 (22 in June) year breast cancer survivor. And let me tell you, I related to every post here.
But time does change things.
I am 'breastless' (no recon) and have been since 1988 when I lost my second breast. I went through it all; the healing issues, the chemo issues, the intimacy issues, the US and Them issues...and on and on...
But ALL those things are now and FINALLY non-issues with me. I will be 60 in June and the older I get the more comfortable with myself I become. And it was, in part, the BC 'work' I was forced to do that helped bring me where I am now. I thought I would never feel 'normal' again. I was WRONG. I am normal-PLUS. Better than normal. Ahead of just-normal, or however you want to look at it. I just know that 'it' is now just another 2-letter word, no longer the end of a 4-letter word that used to sum up my attitude (if you get my drift).
So, my point is, whatever issue you are facing at the moment, meet it head on, deal with it, and then put it behind you and MOVE ON. Because there is a lot of life out there and you don't want to let any of these things interfere with the living of yours for any longer that they really have to.
Just rest assured that you are growing and renewing every day and when you are 105 you won't care about any of this...unless you are an ancient history buff. LOL Hugs to every one of you.
Zahalene

Zahalene,
Your post was like dessert after dinner. I know it will be sweet and I look forward to the time when I will have internalized the perspective you have. Thank you SO MUCH for reminding me that it will be there. You wrote so beautifully that you made me feel good even about being where I am now, working through things. Thank you...love, Joyce

Unknown

RE said:

Hmmmm, let me see this post has made me think about a few things. My first thought is to be cautious when you think those folks in the lobby are healthy and cannot relate. I was one of them for 9 years as I remained in remission until Feb 07. I was in remission and looked good, but I understood what the hooked up patients were going though and I quietly had sympathy for those who were actively fighting their cancer. I too know some who don't know how to react to my cancer and that is okay because for them to understand they would have to have cancer. It's okay to be different then the "thems" really we are all different in some aspect. In an odd way my cancer has allowed me to help others both here and in my daily life and that is a good thing. To me cancer is just my lot in life, some have Diabetes, others have palsy and some have heart problems. These folks rally around each other too, it is a way to cope and I think it is healthy to a degree. If I were too become all consumed with my cancer status that would be very troublesome. I hope this makes some sense and does not sound strange. Many Hugs to all!

RE

It did not sound strange at all. It is good to be mindful that others have problems, sometimes that we can not even imagine. But how even better to find out that sometimes those "other" people are inwardly empathizing with us, supporting us. Sure would be a shame to miss that support by indulging in jealousy. Thank you for your post and really valuable lesson! love, Joyce

Unknown

KathiM said:

Joyce,
This truely is a prickly issue. I have found, 2 years post treatment, that I can only change my world. In the process, I accept that I cannot change others' basic feelings. I share my experience, when appropriate, but don't have it on the top of my list anymore, unlike when I was recovering, and was bald.
I agree with Marilynn and RE, I am still me, and cancer was just a part of my living experience. At first, I had to work at having this attitude, but now it's comfortable. If I think about it, I am still nervous about reoccurance, but push it aside as much as possible, to enjoy life.

I was talking with a fellow rectal cancer survivor (my other cancer) who also lost her rectum. She compared us to others with IBS and Chrone's disease (virtually bowel trouble all the time, forever), and said how lucky we are...

I don't compare myself to others, they have their own set of troubles. As I said in an earlier post, I try to live each day as a gift to myself, we never know when it's our last, as shown by the sudden death of both my ex-hubby at 62, and my daughter at 22...

Jealousy is no better for you than stress. Acceptance and pride in yourself is what makes life enjoyable..as the much-used saying goes:I have cancer, cancer does not have me...

Hugs, Kathi

You are so right about jealousy being no better than stress. It sure ties in when you said, Cancer does not have me. Because if I become to envious of others, I have let C rule my life - and not in a good way either. I used to tell my daughters when they would complain about, say, their feet being too big, "Would you like to go to a party and everyone puts their "faults" into a pot and you can throw yours in, get rid of them, BUT, then you have to draw someone else's problems out of the pot and take them home?" I think the answer is usually no. Not because our problems are necessarily easier than anyone else's, but because we are purposefully learning from our particular troubles exactly that which we need to learn to become stronger, better, more beautiful even. Thanks for teaching me what I thought I knew but didn't really! love, Joyce

chenheart

mgm42 said:

I must be very strange, indeed. While I understand where you are coming from and the responders are coming from, I can't relate. I'm still Marilynn. I just happen to have C. That may change who I am physcially but it doesn't diminish my personality, my compassion for others, my joy in living, my love for my family. Plus, I've not run into the "shunning" which I seem to be hearing in the responses. Maybe it hasn't hit me yet???? But, I'm determined not to worry about it. Guess I'm strange, weird, call it what you will. Frankly, when I read some of these things, it flat out scares me. But, I'm firm in my resolve not to let C change me into someone who I am not. I do know that the depth of understanding I feel from the sisterhood is deeper and stronger than the undertanding of my non C friends. But, they are still compassionate toward my situation. Guess I'm just nuts or terribly fortunate. Love to all, Marilynn

Marilynn~

I for one am SO happy that you can't relate! Your post gave me food for thought, to be sure. My emotional self, because of BC, did not diminish who I am...what you said about yourself applies to me as well: my personality, compassion, joy, love ~ all the positive things who make me, well ME are still intact. And I hope it didn't sound as if I have met no compassionate people, whether related to me or not in this journey. I have found compassion and love along the way. So, why was I complaining? I have been thinking about why....here is my take on that.

For me, and that is the only person I can speak for, mine was series of events which changed everything~ and cancer was just a part of that equasion.

Within a year's time, I left a 27 year marriage, was ex-communicated from a religion I had devoted 22 years to, (and which practices shunning) I moved 100 miles from the place I had been living...and I got cancer! The new friends I made had only known me for 6 months before I was dx~ so for them, there was no history or other point of reference. To them, I AM the BC patient/survivor!!!

As for my family who did't respond with balloons, gifts, and cake?? I still wish they had. There is no denying that. They were happy for me, make no mistake. So, perhaps the failing is MINE~ I am a celebratory kind of person! I am the one who for example, decorated my foster child's bedroom at the end of 1st grade...I made awards for finishing school, learning to read, coloring in the lines, not being late~ you name it, I celebrated it! Multiply that by any and every milestone for everyone in my family and you have Chenheart!

So, I was just assuming( I know, bad idea!) that when I reached THIS milestone, 5 years post Ca surgery...I would have loved being surprised with a cake or balloons. But I wasn't.

As I said, I posted to vent and to have my attitide adjusted. And Marilynn, you adjusted me with flying colors!!

I still wish I had cake, or a bouquet, or balloons, but you know what? I have LIFE, and a man who loves me, and my undemonstrative family who loves me too! And....I have all of you as well!

Thanks Marilynn....you are wonderful!

Hugs,
Claudia

Unknown

chenheart said:

Marilynn~

I for one am SO happy that you can't relate! Your post gave me food for thought, to be sure. My emotional self, because of BC, did not diminish who I am...what you said about yourself applies to me as well: my personality, compassion, joy, love ~ all the positive things who make me, well ME are still intact. And I hope it didn't sound as if I have met no compassionate people, whether related to me or not in this journey. I have found compassion and love along the way. So, why was I complaining? I have been thinking about why....here is my take on that.

For me, and that is the only person I can speak for, mine was series of events which changed everything~ and cancer was just a part of that equasion.

Within a year's time, I left a 27 year marriage, was ex-communicated from a religion I had devoted 22 years to, (and which practices shunning) I moved 100 miles from the place I had been living...and I got cancer! The new friends I made had only known me for 6 months before I was dx~ so for them, there was no history or other point of reference. To them, I AM the BC patient/survivor!!!

As for my family who did't respond with balloons, gifts, and cake?? I still wish they had. There is no denying that. They were happy for me, make no mistake. So, perhaps the failing is MINE~ I am a celebratory kind of person! I am the one who for example, decorated my foster child's bedroom at the end of 1st grade...I made awards for finishing school, learning to read, coloring in the lines, not being late~ you name it, I celebrated it! Multiply that by any and every milestone for everyone in my family and you have Chenheart!

So, I was just assuming( I know, bad idea!) that when I reached THIS milestone, 5 years post Ca surgery...I would have loved being surprised with a cake or balloons. But I wasn't.

As I said, I posted to vent and to have my attitide adjusted. And Marilynn, you adjusted me with flying colors!!

I still wish I had cake, or a bouquet, or balloons, but you know what? I have LIFE, and a man who loves me, and my undemonstrative family who loves me too! And....I have all of you as well!

Thanks Marilynn....you are wonderful!

Hugs,
Claudia

Chen, I have an undemonstrative family, too (except one fabulous close sister). All C issues aside, sometimes their ways are not my ways. They hurt me from time to time and have all my life. I try to get on with life (as you do), but I think I understand how you felt. love - Joyce