CSN Login
Members Online: 6

You are here

RCC Recurrence Prevention? Is there one?

Mighty Frog's picture
Mighty Frog
Posts: 148
Joined: Jul 2017

Hi! Dear All,

This is the most important question and most of us looking for it. After spending hours and reading on the internet and others resources. At this moment, the only positive diet is low carbs + plant based diet and which is almost similar ketogenic diet might able to prevent or delay recurrence. 

But somehow it is not easy to achieve ketosis (will it works or not still remain a questoin).

 

As for most us here.... we need to achieve 2 goals

1. To prevent RCC recurrence 

2. Protect our kidney (s)

 

I found the following are the requirement mights helps to achieve to the above two goals  : 

1. Healthy Body weight (Suitable Waistline  and Low Body fats)

2. Low carbs intake (Mediterrance diet, Raindow diet, Plant Based diet or ketogenic diet - choose one or mix them up till it suit and meet your goal) 

3. Maintaining a anti-inflammantory level means intake a lots of vegetables and fruits (Please take note that TOO much of Oxalate food like green leafy vege are bad for our kidneys too) 

4. Physical activities (mins 30 - 50mins a day)

5. Exposure to Sunlights for Vit D (20 mins  day - in the morning)  

6. Limit sodium intake and protein

7. No diary products, no processed food, no red meat and no alcohol and quit smoking

8. Intake good nutrients 

9. Plenty of water ( 3-4 litres a day)

10. Increase Omega 3 intake (fish oil or others supplement like Udo Oil) 

11. Intermmittent Fasting ( it show when we fasting it can lower insulin and IGF -1  and improve our immune system)

From point 1 to 9 are the standard advise we get from doctors and website. I just added in point on 10 and 11.  

As we all know cancer cell need sugar to grow. If we can lower our blood sugar by reducing carbs intake (low carbs intake) theorically it will  straved to the cancer cell ( So far successful in mice lab testing only and others short term studies) But the cancer cell will rebound once they get sugars from our food intake.... this is where the headache part how do we know how much is the sugar level in our body to stave the cancer cells ? 

And other issue as also, once carbs depleted our body, it will source energy from protein (convert protein to sugar) in our muscles and later only fats. So it is very tricky situation here. We need to cut carbs and protein too..... but can we survivor this ways in long run? we need proteins for cells for repair and functions. 

Hence, this make me turn to low carb based intermittent fasting  (16/8) Meaning Fasting for 16 hours and eat only 8 hours window. During the 8 hours window i still consume vegetables, fruits, nuts, lean meat, fish and others low carbs foods and moderate proteins. By intermittent fasting i can depleted the remaining carbs and this is will cause a mild ketosis. Most importantly is to reduce insulin level and IGF-1. 

I also juice a cup of carrot+kale+spinch) 2-3 times a week as my nutrients and antioxidants foods. Drinks Apply Cider vinegar before my meals (to reduce the blood sugar level spike). Walk 20 - 30 mins after every meals and i do exerise between my 2 meals during weekdays. 

Anyone have better or more bullefproof approach to prevent RCC recurrence? or have tried my approach? 

Why i choose low carbs diet (LCHF) compare to others....

** Plant based diet & Vegan -  Will be problem with deficiency of B 12 and thyroid issue

** Vegan Diet - deficiency B12 and high processed food.

** Ketogenic - Too high Protein which bad for our kidneys.  

 

I have started this 3 months ago ....... I encountered one major problem........................... I lost weight fast and i now underweight.... 121 lbs (b4 was 143 ibs, Ideal weight should be 127 lbs) and i also lost almost 7-8 inches of my waist..... this one no good to my wallet now need to shop for new pants and belt (hahahaha) 

As you can notice i successfully reduce weight, waistline, insulin level. blood pressure and sugar level. My urine acid is at the normal range (I had urine acid for many years) and my fatty liver also gone.   

Now i at dilemma should i continue or stop to gain back my weight? I worry of the side effect of underweight issues. 

Please thrown in your opinions and suggestion.

 

Thank you! 

 

** WARNING ** this is only my personal view and I am at RCC  Stage 1 without any medication at this moment. This is not a magic bullef prevention or to stop your current medication. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Abunai's picture
Abunai
Posts: 173
Joined: Oct 2016

That's a lot.

Items 1-9 certainly sound healthy and are what a doc would normally recommend. Though it does sound a bit boring and I've never been the type to expend tons of time a energy to ensure an exact diet.

I would ask your oncologist or urologist about the diet vs. weight question. I know that in my case, my doctors would prefer I not lose a lot of weight, but I'm stage IV.

randyradiohill's picture
randyradiohill
Posts: 66
Joined: Aug 2017

I was actually going down this road before my cancer was discovered...(partial neph-t3a grade 2).  I juice veggies and fruits (around 65 ounces a day) including kale, spinach, lot of carrots, cucumbers, celery, apples, etc.  I have tried to cut out all processed sugar, processed foods, and have cut down on red meats.  I have lost a total of 30 pounds and feel great with much more energy.  Since discovering cancer, I have read more than I can remember and the opinions are all over the place.  

I agree that cancer cells need sugar and oxidation to grow and thrive so I'm doing the opposite by eating foods with high anti-oxidant properties.  My thouights are everyone has cancer cells in their body and when your immune system is weakened, that is when cancer gets a foothold in your body.  By eating healthy, I'm trying to strenghten my immune system to keep reoccurance at bay for as long as possible.  Only time will tell, but I want to give it my best shot and do everything I can to not have to go thru this again.

kankamuso
Posts: 14
Joined: Nov 2017

Hi,

The end of last year brought the approval of first adjuvant therapy that delays/avoids reccurrence in 8% of patients. Not a big figure and leaves me thinking if, in case the cancer returns, a resistance will already be acquired which prevents the therapy from functioning. Anyway, if you end up being one of the 8% it helps, you will never know but... it is an advancement there was not there a year ago. Here you are the information to aks your doc:

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/888805

Regards

sblairc's picture
sblairc
Posts: 586
Joined: Feb 2014

Thanks for posting. 8% doesn’t seem like enough of a difference to approve this as an adjuvant therapy. I’m sort of suprised. 

Kidneybeans
Posts: 39
Joined: Dec 2017

I don't think I could last long term on that type of diet. I have a good immune system. Im 55 and prior to stage 1 kidney, ive never had a major illness, I've had maybe 3 minor infections that required antibiotics. I don't get the flu shot and never get the flu. I did get it this year because of my 10/12 surgery. I don't smoke or eat red meat (occasional pork) and I'm not overweight, but I am a carb queen. Pasta, bread and the biggy chocolate. However, recurrence is something non of us ever want to see. I guess baby steps. Is there anything to alkeline vs acidic for cancer?

DreamOnDeb
Posts: 112
Joined: May 2017

This is an article from the Mayo Clinic:

 

Myth: People with cancer shouldn't eat sugar, since it can cause cancer to grow faster.

 

Fact: Sugar doesn't make cancer grow faster. All cells, including cancer cells, depend on blood sugar (glucose) for energy. But giving more sugar to cancer cells doesn't speed their growth. Likewise, depriving cancer cells of sugar doesn't slow their growth.

 

This misconception may be based in part on a misunderstanding of positron emission tomography (PET) scans, which use a small amount of radioactive tracer — typically a form of glucose. All tissues in your body absorb some of this tracer, but tissues that are using more energy — including cancer cells — absorb greater amounts. For this reason, some people have concluded that cancer cells grow faster on sugar. But this isn't true.

Steve.Adam's picture
Steve.Adam
Posts: 460
Joined: Oct 2016

I'm not equipped to argue with anyone from the Mayo clinic, but... That can't be right.

All cells in the body can use glucose for energy but only some cells 'depend' on glucose. Nearly all cells are quite happy burning fat and can survive and thrive with no glucose.  (There are some exceptions).

I have read that it is a fact that all cancer cells have damaged mitochondria. There are many different kinds of genetic mutation in cancer cells and even cells from different parts of the same cancer can have different mutations. But they all have mitochondrial damage.

I only know what I read and see in video lectures on youtube. I don't know what the real truth is.

The main proponent of the 'cancer cells can only get energy from fermentation' theory is Thomas Seyfried. (Fermentation of glucose or glutamine.)

Steve.

AnnissaP's picture
AnnissaP
Posts: 632
Joined: Sep 2017

I honestly don't think a clean, super-healthy diet will keep cancer from coming back. Unfortunately, I was told there was nothing I did to cause it to happen in the 1st place. This tells me there is nothing I can do to ward it off. I am, however, eating much more healthy, watching protein and salt and drinking more water to keep my lone kidney healthy. Exercise and eating well never hurt anybody, but I have never smoked, always exercised and still got cancer. So......just something to think about. I know we all want to do what we can to keep cancer away, but if you think about it.. Were any of us even given a concrete reason as to why we had/have it in the first place???

Kidneybeans
Posts: 39
Joined: Dec 2017

Very true AnnissaP. If they knew more they'd tell us. All cancers are different and all people are too. Some people get some very rare types. I'd say all the crap in our food doesn't help but then I can also say I know people who atr very healthy and still got cancer..

donna_lee's picture
donna_lee
Posts: 964
Joined: Feb 2009

Nope!  You can do a lot of things for your overall health, which, or course will assist you in the long run.  But if or when there is even one cell that has escaped into your body prior to any type of surgery to remove what was found, it will multiply to cause a recurrence sometime.

I've been there...and had two follow-up surgeries to remove tiny nodes that had enlarged due to the original RCC.

I was a PE/health Ed teacher, physically active, kept my weight down, never smoked, had an occassional drink, and still was D'xd with cancer at the age of 64.

Go figure.

Hugs to all,

donna_lee

Cinnamongirl's picture
Cinnamongirl
Posts: 199
Joined: Jan 2018

I agree with you girls. I was told there was nothing I could do to prevent a recurrence. Cancer is not prejudiced. It does not pick and choose. I have decided to eat healthier and get in more exercise but most of all to be happy and not stress so much. Donna_lee your were so kind to me when I joined this forum and I admire your courage and strength.

APny's picture
APny
Posts: 1987
Joined: Mar 2014

Why do children get cancer? Obviously a 5 year old has not been around long enough to get cancer due to eating sugar or carbs. A healthy life style and diet is a wonderful thing for everyone to follow. I do and always have. Still got cancer. And if it's destined to come back because a rogue cell or two escaped somewhere then me cutting out all sugar and carbs is not going to prevent it. I am conscious of what I eat and I was never big on sweets. But I really do wish it was as easy as following a particular diet.

CRashster's picture
CRashster
Posts: 236
Joined: Mar 2017

kills cancer cells in labrotory animals. The government says so.

ImNotDeadYet's picture
ImNotDeadYet
Posts: 244
Joined: Apr 2017

CBD is the real hero here. However, the THC is also necessary to activate it, at least from what I've read. I live in Colorado and am doing a regimen of CBD and THC oil, gradually increasing the amounts. It's the CBD that is actually supposed to kill, or reorient, the cancer cells. No clue if it will help for sure, but my oncologist says it can't hurt. And I have read anecdotal stuff about it working. It will be nice when we can get some real clinical trials around this.

Bryn1108's picture
Bryn1108
Posts: 91
Joined: Jul 2017

Hi, what does CBD and THC stand for? Thanks 

ImNotDeadYet's picture
ImNotDeadYet
Posts: 244
Joined: Apr 2017

They're two different types of cannabis oils. CBD is non-psychoactive (won't get you high). THC oil is the stuff that gets you high. CBD is available in all or most all states, but do your research before you try it or buy any. 

CRashster's picture
CRashster
Posts: 236
Joined: Mar 2017

i believe the government site says cannabis and does not break it down.

ImNotDeadYet's picture
ImNotDeadYet
Posts: 244
Joined: Apr 2017

Remember, the government has marijuana listed as a schedule 1 drug - same class as heroin. But they have some kind of a patent on some cannabis derivative, I think CBD, on which they claim it can fight cancer. I'll research this more, to get certifiably accurate information, when I have some time. 

CRashster's picture
CRashster
Posts: 236
Joined: Mar 2017

oh, I completely understand. I was just surprised that it was even mentioned on the cancer.org website. I’m quite aware of the legality.

foxhd's picture
foxhd
Posts: 3183
Joined: Oct 2011

 ALL cells use glucose for energy. When blood sugars are low, proteins and fats will be broken down into sugar for fuel. Since we are nervous system dependent, mucsle and other soft tissue are cannablized and broken down to feed the brain. This is common knowledge with marathoners. "Bonking" is the term when running low on BS's. The hypo glucemic state leaves runners confused and disoriented. You just can't starve a tumor. It is a thief and will even steal from the brain leaving it goofy.

DreamOnDeb
Posts: 112
Joined: May 2017

That's a great way to explain it, Fox!

Steve.Adam's picture
Steve.Adam
Posts: 460
Joined: Oct 2016

My blood sugar has ranged from 2.6 mM (47 mg/dL) to an extremely unhealthy 27 mM (486 mg/dL). Obviously it can never go to zero but I will be keeping mine as low as possible in future. I don't know if it will help, but I really hate the idea of giving cancer cells a glucose rich environment.

Uncontrolled diabetes is another horribly devastating disease so I already have a great reason for keeping glucose low.

It is true that all cells use glucose for energy but not all cells depend on it. Most cells can use a variety of fuels (glucose, fat, ketones, lactate?). The brain and red blood cells are exceptions. Red blood cells have no mitochondria and require glucose. The brain can run mostly on ketones but still requires some glucose.

Steve.

lobbyist0724's picture
lobbyist0724
Posts: 418
Joined: Sep 2016

I completely agree with Fox and Donna. From the researches regarding recurrent, the only positive factor that is "statistically significant" is "EXERCISE". So if you wanna do something about it, make sure you do cardio exercise for 200 minutes per week. But also, eating well will help us to prevent a second disease like heart attack in the future.

Wehavenotimeatall
Posts: 489
Joined: Aug 2017

no Wonder the weight is going on

but  if you mean 20 that is still way off my quota

doh

lobbyist0724's picture
lobbyist0724
Posts: 418
Joined: Sep 2016

My bad, it is at least 200 minutes, lol!

Deanie0916
Posts: 325
Joined: Nov 2016

This is all so interesting and helpful, thanks to you all!

Mighty Frog's picture
Mighty Frog
Posts: 148
Joined: Jul 2017

RCC recurrence can be predictive on the following factors

1. incidence vs symptoms finding 

2. Tumor necrosis

3. Lymphoma Invasion and Microscope Invasion

4. Tumor size, Furham grade 

5. Location of the tumor 

Well Kidney cancer are known cause by genetic and by our lifestyle (obesity, smoking and western diet-too high calories and satured oil). So whether sugar, processed food or others unhealthy diet we still need to prepare.  As our situation are more complex that others cancer as we have one kidney or 1 1/2 kidneys left. We are not only worry on recurrence but also risk of high blood pressure and progression to CKD.

Hence, like doona_lee mentioned is being healthy will helps in the long run and hopefully we can delay the recurrence till they find a cure to this.... like this news

https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2018/01/cancer-vaccine-eliminates-tumors-in-mice.html

lobbyist0724's picture
lobbyist0724
Posts: 418
Joined: Sep 2016

Thank you Mighty Frog for sharing the info. I have a question if you don't mind, I rarely see the Location of the tumor as a prognotic factor. Can you sare more information regarding that. Thank you!

 

Mighty Frog's picture
Mighty Frog
Posts: 148
Joined: Jul 2017

Hi! Lobbyist0724! 

Nope..... I did not find much on the location of the tumor as the prognostic factor. But one thing for sure the location of the tumor is important factor for type of surgical to perform. Normally if the tumor located at the north or south pole should be less problem compare to tumor located in the middle (center) or too close to the artery vein. Again this is subjective to the tumor aggressiveness. 

The others factor than i have listed is our body weight.... where obesity, overweight and body waistline have a higher risk of kidney cancer or recurrence. 

https://www.wcrf.org/int/research-we-fund/continuous-update-project-findings-reports/kidney-cancer

So, eat the RIGHT foods, have a lean body (ideal body weight) and EXERCISE alot....  do helps alot

Also another very important factor to watch out is inflammatory. U can check this during bloodwork under C-Reactive Protein maker. It is to check inflammatory rate in the body. Too high inflammatory (cause by drugs like NSAIDs,  too high fatty acid  like Omega 6 foods and other inflammatory foods) can increase the chance of recurrence and tomur growth.

Hence, we need to watch over

1. Inflammatory level

2. IGF-1

3.  Insulin

4. Creatinine level

5. Blood Pressure 

Hence, having a good body weight can reduce the risk of blood pressure and the risk of diabetes which boths will benefit to our less than 2 kidneys function and hopefully will also to prevent recurrence too. 

 

lobbyist0724's picture
lobbyist0724
Posts: 418
Joined: Sep 2016

Thank you, yes, will watch the diet and do more exercise for sure!

Angiebby75's picture
Angiebby75
Posts: 207
Joined: Aug 2017

Very helpful info, I am always concerned on what is the best diet now.

Subscribe to Comments for "RCC Recurrence Prevention? Is there one? "