My high CEA journey.

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zx10guy
zx10guy Member Posts: 273 Member
edited November 2017 in Colorectal Cancer #1

Here's a post I made earlier in the year summarizing events I've gone through up till that point:

CEA has been a constant bane to me since my initial diagnosis in 2012.  Preoperative CEA was 13.9.  The lowest it dropped to was 3.11 when the clinic I went to used a lab that did the Siemans/Bayer assay test that had 0-3 as normal for non smokers and up to 5 for smokers.  Before I switched clinics, the lab at this clinic changed assay methods and went with the Roche test.  This changed the scale for what was considered normal.  Depending on the lab, the new normal CEA level is anywhere from 4 to 5.  Since then my blood work has been done with the Roche test which I only had one CEA test come in just below the normal limit.  All my other blood work has come in between 5 to 6.  This has been going on for the past 2 years.

Last year, during my normal checkup, CEA was run again and to my surprise....9.7.  A retest was ordered to make sure that number was real....came back at 11.  Ok.  So what's going on?  I had a CT with contrast done a few weeks prior to meeting up with my oncologist and having the CEA done.  That scan was clear.  My oncologist orders a PET.  That comes back clear.  So we're all scratching our heads wondering what is going on.  One last thing to do.  I was due for my 3 year colonoscopy.  Nothing was found during the colonoscopy and my GI doc was about to complete the exam.  He wanted to clean the cecum area of my colon to look before pulling the scope out.  That's when my colon shifted and a polyp popped out of my appendix.  He immediately said, that's not good.  Long story short about that is biopsies said high grade dysplasia.  Went back to my CRC surgeon and he did a right hemicolectomy to be sure nothing gets left behind.  Pathology comes back Stage 0 appendicial cancer.

I had 2 follow ups since the surgery.  CEA dropped back down to 5.4 and 5.2.  Everyone thinks, this was the cause of my CEA spike.  Fast forward to my recent check up just over a month ago.  Ask oncologist if I need to have a CT scan for this checkup.  He said no.  I go in and get CEA done.  Results come back at 15.6.  Here we go again.  Retest done to make sure no lab error.  16.7.  CT with contrast is now ordered.  Comes back clear.  I was already scheduled to have a small bowel capsule endoscopy.  GI doc tells me there were some things found but nothing that points to any cancer issues in my small bowel.  Talked to my CRC surgeon about what is going on.  He doesn't like what he's hearing and orders a PET/CT.  Had that done.  All clear too.  So what's left?  Colonoscopy.  Due to the elevated CEA nd my past history, GI doc agrees to move up the colonoscopy that was supposed to be during the summer; one year from when we found the appendicial cancer.  Again, nothing found.  So now I wait another couple of weeks to have my CEA retested.

If you want to talk about CEA panic, imagine having to deal with not a few tenths rise but several points of rise.  Depending on what the next reading says, my CRC surgeon is talking about doing exploratory surgery to see if there's something in my abdomen that isn't being picked up by scans.  My oncologist doesn't seem to worried and has said so.  He said I've always been on the high side with my CEA and this recent spike from the previous 3 months could be just my normal.  He said he's had patients which had CEAs as high as 20 end up not having any cancer recurrence.  I asked him how common is it.  He said in his practice he said about 1 in 4 of his patients being tracked with CEA will have high false positives.  He also said he's not convinced the CEA spike last year when the polyp with appendicial cancer was found was due to that cancer.  He said all along that polyps typically don't cause CEA elevation.  And the cancerous polyp I had was in situ with only the surface of the polyp having cancerous cells.  The rest was benign.

I guess we'll see if my oncologist is correct in two weeks.

Since then I've had a series of CEA tests done.  I've also had an endoscopy with ultrasound scanning of suspect areas and an MRI with contrast.  Both found no cancer concerns.  Just some thickening of the duodenum and jejenum.  The CEA readings were 14.2 (5/2) and 11.9 (6/19).  So we all thought ok it's going back down so things should return to my "normal".  At my 3 month checkup on 9/18, a CEA was done and it shot back up again to 15.2.  My oncologist said not to worry and he'll see me in 6 months.  No scans ordered and no repeat CEA in the interim.  I sat on this for a while until last week when I decided to discuss this spike with my GI doctor.  He felt there is definitely something going on and issued orders for blood work.  CEA came back from this order and it's now even higher at 20.2.  Ok.  Something seems to be going on.  I report this info to my oncologist who still says things are probably ok.  But he urged me to set up an office visit.  I saw him this past Tuesday.  He repeats the blood work but also orders a CT with contrast just to be safe.  I got the blood work back and my CEA is down again to 14.3 in a little less than a week.  I'm thinking this is good but wanted to wait till I got the CT report before putting this behind me.  I got the report yesterday.  All clear.  Still NED.

So right now, we don't know why all of a sudden this elevated CEA now appears to be my new normal.  My brother is a PA and suggested maybe I have a rheumatic or autoimmune disorder.  I brought up this theory to my oncologist who agreed that we should explore this.  More info about my past medical history, I've been diagnosed a long time ago with Raynauds and have had bouts of alopecia areata.

More discussion about CEA.  At the office visit on Tuesday, I had a frank conversation with my oncologist about this whole CEA thing.  He said something that actually makes things more clear about this whole situation around CEA.  He said CEA is typically elevated or tracked for metastatic disease.  He said typically CEA does not spike to high levels with only a tumor in your colon.  He mentioned this is why CEA is never used as an initial diagnostic tool for detecting cancer on someone without a history.  It is only used as one of the tools to monitor patients post cancer diagnosis to detect any recurrence or metastatic spread.  He said with me.  My CEA levels have always been above normal; with only recently spiking to the high levels we've seen.  He said this past history suggest there might be some cancer lurking somewhere in my body.  But he pointed out all of my scans since the initial surgery have all come up clean.  He mentioned even with this recent long term spike which was detected in March of this year, if this is caused by some cancer, we would have seen things manifest by now....loss of weight, physical signs and symptoms, etc.  Nothing.  I've actually put on some weight this year due to working out.

As you all can relate, this cancer journey we're all on can be one big rollercoaster.  Of course this has to happen now as I'm approaching 5 years since my initial diagnosis which will be December 18th.  So it looks like I'll be crossing that golden 5 year threshold NED.

As a parting gift to you all about high CEA with no cancer, I found this paper through my recent searches.  It's about a woman in Taiwan being followed after having colon cancer which metastisized to her ovary.  She was tracked since then with high CEA readings for 5/6 years.  During that period no cancer was found and we're talking about CEA readings all the way up to 1500 and going down to the lowest point of 68.5.  Yet no cancer.  So just because you have high CEA elevations doesn't mean you have cancer and to not lose hope.

https://academic.oup.com/jjco/article/36/12/811/874390

Comments

  • zx10guy
    zx10guy Member Posts: 273 Member
    edited November 2017 #2
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    Sorry about the formatting. 

    Sorry about the formatting.  I tried to fix it but this horrendous forum software strikes again.

  • NewHere
    NewHere Member Posts: 1,427 Member
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    Maybe that is the part that is messing up the margins.

    Something else is to copy it all to a plain text editor, delete it all, then paste back in.  There is some tag in there (or line break issues) causing it would be my guess. (The formatting is tough indeed to read ;) )

  • zx10guy
    zx10guy Member Posts: 273 Member
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    Ok.  It was the URL.  I used

    Ok.  It was the URL.  I used a different URL which provides the jist of the article.

  • NewHere
    NewHere Member Posts: 1,427 Member
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    My CEA did not rise

    CEA seemed to track me fairly well.  An uptick after my chemo was done indicated that a suspect spot in my lung was growing.  It was a colon cancer met to the lung.  (My thoracic surgeon also said lung cancer can raise CEA, not just colon cancer met.)  My CEA went down, with a small uptick in April (4.0), down to 3.8 in July and down to 3.7 a couple of weeks ago.  But scans showed it has come back (99.99% sure, unless strange other reason) and is inoperable. 

    So it is sort of the inverse of what you mentioned, do not just rely on a low CEA in being monitored, scans and scopes still needed.  (I am still hoping that since my CEA was a good indicator for my, that the lymph nodes are something else.  

    Seems these are in play (I had 11 out of 20 nodes cancerous at my initial surgery and a met to the lung.  So......):

    - Infections, such as tuberculosis

    - Inflammation from any number of causes, including diseases such as sarcoidosis

    - Cancer from a distant site in the body that metastasizes to the lymph nodes

    - Blood cancers that develop in the lymph nodes or spread to the lymph nodes

    - Other rare causes

     

  • zx10guy
    zx10guy Member Posts: 273 Member
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    Hi NewHere,

    Hi NewHere,

    Through my research on CEA, it appears hypothyroidism can also cause high CEA.  I also found out CEA is tracked with breast cancer too.  And you're right about CEA, it's only a tool to see if further investigation is needed and not as a primary means of detecting cancer.

    I figure I would post up my situation as I haven't run into anyone who has followed up on high CEA readings.  I know if I ran across a post like this when I started to get my CEA spikes, it would have been very helpful.

    Here's hoping things aren't as bad as they seem for you.

  • Trubrit
    Trubrit Member Posts: 5,796 Member
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    Brain mets

    I know its not something we want to think about, but have they scanned your brain?  I know that none of my post surgery scans have included the head, as thats usualy the last place a met will take hold, and it is quite rare. 

    I am sorry for this frustration and I hope that someone somewhere can figure it all out so that you can go back to 'normal' worrying. 

    Tru

  • NewHere
    NewHere Member Posts: 1,427 Member
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    zx10guy said:

    Hi NewHere,

    Hi NewHere,

    Through my research on CEA, it appears hypothyroidism can also cause high CEA.  I also found out CEA is tracked with breast cancer too.  And you're right about CEA, it's only a tool to see if further investigation is needed and not as a primary means of detecting cancer.

    I figure I would post up my situation as I haven't run into anyone who has followed up on high CEA readings.  I know if I ran across a post like this when I started to get my CEA spikes, it would have been very helpful.

    Here's hoping things aren't as bad as they seem for you.

    Your Post Was Great

    Definatley very good for people to see how this all goes and the situations they can run into and that it is worth checking/not worrying.

    Thanks for your thoughts.  It is so weird, it is the first time since this all started for me that I feel like I am losing/defeated.  Not letting it grind me TOO much and trying to stay positive, but doubt has creeped in now as compared to before where I was more %^&*# this, I am getting past the surgery, chemo and moving on.  

  • zx10guy
    zx10guy Member Posts: 273 Member
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    NewHere said:

    Your Post Was Great

    Definatley very good for people to see how this all goes and the situations they can run into and that it is worth checking/not worrying.

    Thanks for your thoughts.  It is so weird, it is the first time since this all started for me that I feel like I am losing/defeated.  Not letting it grind me TOO much and trying to stay positive, but doubt has creeped in now as compared to before where I was more %^&*# this, I am getting past the surgery, chemo and moving on.  

    You shouldn't feel defeated

    You shouldn't feel defeated like you lost some sort of competition or battle.  That's why I don't like comparing going through cancer with a war/fight/competition/etc.

  • zx10guy
    zx10guy Member Posts: 273 Member
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    Trubrit said:

    Brain mets

    I know its not something we want to think about, but have they scanned your brain?  I know that none of my post surgery scans have included the head, as thats usualy the last place a met will take hold, and it is quite rare. 

    I am sorry for this frustration and I hope that someone somewhere can figure it all out so that you can go back to 'normal' worrying. 

    Tru

    I'm going to roll the dice

    I'm going to roll the dice and assume there are no brain mets.  I haven't had any symptoms which would indicate this is the case.  My oncologist said if there are mets we would see something by now on the scans or with physical symptoms.  Unfortunately, I've seen what brain mets will do to someone with the recent passing of a great man.

  • beaumontdave
    beaumontdave Member Posts: 1,280 Member
    edited November 2017 #11
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    I've been on the CEA coaster

    I've been on the CEA coaster for a long time, and it seems to be flattening out, or at least staying at mentally manageable tenths, but even thinking about it much brings on the heebeegeebees. With the stories here I realize how much rougher the ride could be, how frustrating it is to live with those numbers bouncing around, the uncertainty. Thanks for the thread which offers both perspective and info, things I'll try to keep in mind with a blood panel and scan coming in the next couple weeks................................................Dave

  • Mikenh
    Mikenh Member Posts: 777
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    CEA has been a constant bane

    Deleted

  • Annabelle41415
    Annabelle41415 Member Posts: 6,742 Member
    edited November 2017 #13
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    CEA

    Your doctor is right about the testing.  Mine was below the normal mark when in full rectal cancer.  It very seldom moved.  A lot of doctors don't put much stock in CEA because it can be a bad marker.  It isn't always an indication for cancer, however it can be for many and that is a test they use to see if people have the marker in them.  The clean scans are good news.  Just make sure that you express your concerns with your doctor and let them know you are worried about the rise/fall (which it sounds like you have done), but keep up with it.  Glad that you are still NED. Wishing you the best forward.

    Kim

     

  • NewHere
    NewHere Member Posts: 1,427 Member
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    zx10guy said:

    You shouldn't feel defeated

    You shouldn't feel defeated like you lost some sort of competition or battle.  That's why I don't like comparing going through cancer with a war/fight/competition/etc.

    I Know

    Have been positive this whole time until the last news.  Was pretty much the game is up once I need to go back on chemo.  I am still having hope that some things to keep it at bay may get me enought time for a breakthrough.  Or that it is something else.  One of the surreal parts is that I feel perfectly fine.  Look fine (or how I normally look for better or worse Foot in Mouth)   I usually do not use the battle/fight thing either.  But was at a loss for something better to describe it.  Sounds like I have 12-18 months.  I plan on posting something here in 2019.  And beyond.  But it just got a bit more real in my head I guess.

  • MG Ragan
    MG Ragan Member Posts: 2
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    CEA a Sometime Indicator

    Hello All. I am new to this site. Wanted to share my history with colorectal cancer. I was diagnosed over five years ago after a routine colonoscopy. Could not have been more shocked. Although there is a strong history in my family of this disease, you never think it will happen to you. Had surgery within two weeks and the biopsy showed it had spread to three lymph nodes. Did six months of grueling chemo. Got to take it home with me. After that all scans were clear and CEA was 0. Then after about three years the scan showed a swollen node near my spine. I had a PET scan. My whole middle lit up plus a node in my shoulder. CEA was in the low twenties. My oncologist at Sloan Kettering said to wait for next scan before doing chemo. She said the cancer was minimal. After three months my marker went to 38. So we started Avastin and iritenocan. Been on and off it now for two years. Latest scan in September showed some resistance and a lesion on my spine. Very small mets in liver and lungs. But CEA still in mid twenties, not moving much at all. Doc says I may need radiation and new chemo.  I knew I was in trouble. The doctor ordered an MRI. In between the scan and MRI results I visited the relics of the patron saint of healing, Padre Pio, at St Patrick’s cathedral in NYC. Thousands of people showed up. I touched the relics and asked for a healing. I immediately felt much better. The MRI confirmed it was cancer but inconclusive as to how long it had been there or that it was spreading. The doctor was very surprised and says no radiation or change in chemo needed. No pain anywhere. Cancer is still present. Markers still the same. As you can guess, I am a Catholic who believes in the power of faith and prayer. I don’t know what the future holds. What I do know is that I must trust in God and whatever He wills for me and that has given me tremendous peace. I also know I must trust in my doctors. I am very fortunate to be getting care at one of the finest cancer facilities in the United States. I pray every day and I hope for the best. I have more time now than anticipated. Yesterday all my bloodwork was excellent and my markers stayed the same. I feel sick this morning from the chemo but I’m glad to be alive. Hope my story helps others. I found that the worst part about dealing with cancer is the lack of control. It caused me great stress and anxiety. It doesn’t anymore. That alone is a wonderful blessing. 

  • Annabelle41415
    Annabelle41415 Member Posts: 6,742 Member
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    MG Ragan said:

    CEA a Sometime Indicator

    Hello All. I am new to this site. Wanted to share my history with colorectal cancer. I was diagnosed over five years ago after a routine colonoscopy. Could not have been more shocked. Although there is a strong history in my family of this disease, you never think it will happen to you. Had surgery within two weeks and the biopsy showed it had spread to three lymph nodes. Did six months of grueling chemo. Got to take it home with me. After that all scans were clear and CEA was 0. Then after about three years the scan showed a swollen node near my spine. I had a PET scan. My whole middle lit up plus a node in my shoulder. CEA was in the low twenties. My oncologist at Sloan Kettering said to wait for next scan before doing chemo. She said the cancer was minimal. After three months my marker went to 38. So we started Avastin and iritenocan. Been on and off it now for two years. Latest scan in September showed some resistance and a lesion on my spine. Very small mets in liver and lungs. But CEA still in mid twenties, not moving much at all. Doc says I may need radiation and new chemo.  I knew I was in trouble. The doctor ordered an MRI. In between the scan and MRI results I visited the relics of the patron saint of healing, Padre Pio, at St Patrick’s cathedral in NYC. Thousands of people showed up. I touched the relics and asked for a healing. I immediately felt much better. The MRI confirmed it was cancer but inconclusive as to how long it had been there or that it was spreading. The doctor was very surprised and says no radiation or change in chemo needed. No pain anywhere. Cancer is still present. Markers still the same. As you can guess, I am a Catholic who believes in the power of faith and prayer. I don’t know what the future holds. What I do know is that I must trust in God and whatever He wills for me and that has given me tremendous peace. I also know I must trust in my doctors. I am very fortunate to be getting care at one of the finest cancer facilities in the United States. I pray every day and I hope for the best. I have more time now than anticipated. Yesterday all my bloodwork was excellent and my markers stayed the same. I feel sick this morning from the chemo but I’m glad to be alive. Hope my story helps others. I found that the worst part about dealing with cancer is the lack of control. It caused me great stress and anxiety. It doesn’t anymore. That alone is a wonderful blessing. 

    MG Ragan

    It would be nice if you could start a new post and copy and paste this into it to introduce you to the group.  We welcome you and your experience and you could be a benefit to others with your story.  Please think about posting a separate post so others can respond.  Welcome to the group and look forward to your questions and reponse on the boards.

    Kim

  • steveja
    steveja Member Posts: 41
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    zx10guy said:

    You shouldn't feel defeated

    You shouldn't feel defeated like you lost some sort of competition or battle.  That's why I don't like comparing going through cancer with a war/fight/competition/etc.

    CEA chomps

    Had a first colonoscopy July 2016, found a biggish polyp that turned out to be cancerous.  CEA 5.8

    LAR surgery August 2016, stage1, zero node involvment.

    Since then my CEA has been wandering in the mid-4's never returning to "normal" - 4.1, 4.6, 4.1, 4.3 then last week 5.6 (used the chemoluminescent LOCI method while others were Beckman DXL - grrr)

    They did an abdominal CT presurgery.  Then chest&abdominal CT in  May 2017.   Last week they did another CT and there is some evidence of new nodes (multiple) in the lungs both central and in lower lungs.  No one said so, but *IF* these are bad-boys, it's unlikely to be resectable.

    So I'm scheduled for a whole body PET scan in 10 days.   I *expect* the new nodes may be too small to detect by PET, so I *expect* I'll be doing the waiting-game.

     

    D*mned - I was just starting to believe the Docs that my CEA  ~4.5 was "normal for me" , and I should relax about it.  I expected to talk to them about extending the checkups to say 6 month intervals.  Instead they're sayng chemo is an option if the PET scan shows a problem.

    I don't like this cancer thing at all.     It stinks.  It isn't a 'fight', is a random bullet coming through the wall from a dark street then a search for a tourniquette.    The treatements are mostly about removing parts and poisoning your body with chemo; both of which I find dehumanizing.  Perhaps the worst thing is that there is no "you're cured" moment.  There is no goalpost telling you you've "won" any fight - there is just more waiting for the next random bullet.  Mr.C is never in the rear-view mirror, he's just out of sight, but where ?

    Sorry to be so down, but that's where I am today.

     

  • Mikenh
    Mikenh Member Posts: 777
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    steveja said:

    CEA chomps

    Had a first colonoscopy July 2016, found a biggish polyp that turned out to be cancerous.  CEA 5.8

    LAR surgery August 2016, stage1, zero node involvment.

    Since then my CEA has been wandering in the mid-4's never returning to "normal" - 4.1, 4.6, 4.1, 4.3 then last week 5.6 (used the chemoluminescent LOCI method while others were Beckman DXL - grrr)

    They did an abdominal CT presurgery.  Then chest&abdominal CT in  May 2017.   Last week they did another CT and there is some evidence of new nodes (multiple) in the lungs both central and in lower lungs.  No one said so, but *IF* these are bad-boys, it's unlikely to be resectable.

    So I'm scheduled for a whole body PET scan in 10 days.   I *expect* the new nodes may be too small to detect by PET, so I *expect* I'll be doing the waiting-game.

     

    D*mned - I was just starting to believe the Docs that my CEA  ~4.5 was "normal for me" , and I should relax about it.  I expected to talk to them about extending the checkups to say 6 month intervals.  Instead they're sayng chemo is an option if the PET scan shows a problem.

    I don't like this cancer thing at all.     It stinks.  It isn't a 'fight', is a random bullet coming through the wall from a dark street then a search for a tourniquette.    The treatements are mostly about removing parts and poisoning your body with chemo; both of which I find dehumanizing.  Perhaps the worst thing is that there is no "you're cured" moment.  There is no goalpost telling you you've "won" any fight - there is just more waiting for the next random bullet.  Mr.C is never in the rear-view mirror, he's just out of sight, but where ?

    Sorry to be so down, but that's where I am today.

     

    I understand your frustration

    I understand your frustration and I'm waiting for my own set of post-surgical scans and CEA tests. I would really like to be one of those folks that is NED for five, ten, fifteen, twenty years but the paranoid part of me worries. What's been a downer for me is that a sister is having a lot of health problems along with so many new people coming on to the CRC formus with new cases. It feels like cancer is everywhere (maybe it has been like this for a long time).