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Does anything we do make a difference?
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Jan 28, 2012 - 10:35 am
I can't answer this for myself yet but a few current posts have really got me thinking.... Some here claim they have made absolutely no changes in their life after Dx;others have tried doing what they are convinced (or just hope),for whatever reasons,will be of benefit to themselves.Does any of the latter make a difference? Is our fate ordained at the time of Dx or can anything be done? I'm rather conflicted at the moment and might delete this "discussion" as maybe i started it just for my own sense of feeling lost... |
Joined: Oct 2010
I feel lost with you. ...But
I feel lost with you. ...But if I don't have hope and believe that it is possible I might be able to help my body stay healthy at this point I am at then I don't think I can wake each morning and put one foot in front of the other knowing I havn't tried. For my kids, I want to make sure they know I tried. The big difference is at this moment my body is back to square one and free of that ugly monster. ....So was it pre destined...or did I help it at the right time....or will it come back and all is for nothing? The only thing I will know is my kids will know I gave it a try.
plh4gail
Joined: Jan 2010
Perhaps
My feeling is that what you do or don't do does make a difference, perhaps not in the way you mean it though.
If what we do or don't do makes us feel better emotionally it is worth it.
If what we do or don't do makes us feel better physically, even for the moment, it is worth it.
I guess I am just saying that while a cure is what we all pray for, what we do for our mental and emotional well being is just as important. If it happens to also help our physical issues, all the better.
Marie who loves kitties
Joined: Feb 2008
What I think
I was diagnosed early, so I haven't endured the treatments, testing, and questions that so many of you have. I don't know the answer to your question, but I will say only that getting ourselves as healthy as we can can't hurt. So eating well, exercising, getting good rest, are all good things. They may not cure you, but they certainly won't harm you or speed up the growth of cancer. Does that mean I'm good at doing those things? No! And when I read Phil's very thoughtful answer to you, I felt ashamed and vowed to do better. Wish me luck!
*hugs*
Gail
Joined: May 2005
Who's to Say...
I hear you Steve and feel frustrated at times too. It's a very complex question I believe with no "right" answer. Two people can have very seemingly similar DX's yet respond so differently to the same treatments. I believe a lot of it is timing as to when its caught as well as what you do first treatment-wise. In MY case, I think if I did surgery first it would have been the wrong choice. Keep in mind that I had no blockage and I had the luxury of time (in a way) so I was able to do the chemo that shrunk my liver tumors.
I do believe that what we do AFTER surgery is very important too. Chemo, while far from perfect, has given many of us much more time than if we did not do chemo. Yes, it can take its toll on the body. It IS after all, chemical therapy. When it comes down to it, they're all chemicals. Some are gathered naturally while others are synthesized. We are fighting CANCER, not the common cold. Sometimes you have to break a few farm-raised, free-range, organic eggs if you want to make an omelet.
It's a very important decision as to which route to choose with absolutely no guarantees other than (I hope I don't spoil the ending for anyone) everyone dies in the end from something. Sometimes I don't believe it even matters because it's caught too late. Then I would choose being comfortable.
A bad diet possibly got many of us into this situation. Not everyone but some of us. I don't believe it can be business as usual as far as a bad diet goes.
I have no proof, it's just what I've come to believe. Eating healthy seems to be a win-win situation.
-phil
PS: I hope you don't delete the post but it probably has the potential to get out of control...
Joined: Jan 2007
Old cars and salt roads.....
I can remember when they called the rust on a car "cancer".
Some cars seemed to rust out no matter what we did, while
other cars seemed impervious to salt and acidic elements....
What's up with that?
With some valued vehicles, we stripped the paint down, and
resurfaced the undercarriage, and once finished it was as good
as new.
Did it last? Sure it did. Some of those repainted antique vehicles
are still around, without rust, and capturing awards for "best in show".
Humans aren't much different. That "rust" is doing it's work,
but we can take measures to stop it, and rebuild the damaged
areas. We're not going to accomplish much using all the novelty
"rust-stoppers" and "mechanic in a can" garbage, but if we use
what has been proven to rebuild the basic system, we may
have a better chance at remaining "in service".
"You can't get healthy by getting sick".
That's a pretty simple concept that registers with any amount of
common sense available. So why then, do we insist on allowing
toxic, carcinogenic chemicals to be pumped into our body?
An effort to fight cancer shouldn't include the weakening and/or
death of our good cells. Yet, we allow it for lack of knowledge
of any other way.
Or is it, that we don't trust "any other way", and are locked into
the psycho-babble rhetoric of the industry..........
The industry that tells us that:
"We can only get healthy by damn near killing our body"
Where is the logic; the common sense? Where has it gone?
Yes, rusted cars can be saved, just as rusted human bodies can.
It just takes the courage to experiment; to learn about things
other than what we've been brainwashed about, and put those
to work for us.
Best of health to all; may we all find "the answer".
John
Joined: Apr 2010
I have no idea what is right or wrong..but I
feel chemo does keep us going, but at what expense. I knew nothing when I started this journey, had surgery, did folfox and I was strong when I started chemo, it nearly killed me. So I am a John believer. Did try surgery for mets of liver, didn't work. So I said no more chemo. My husband juices for me, we do supplements. I told the onc I did not want the chemo to kill me. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't. The cancer will. I wish I could try it both ways and see what happens, but can't so going with our gut. I respect everyone here, such bravery in all you do. And I believe you provide great support for whichever way we choose. I learned so much from you all, but it is finally our choice to make. I wish we had the answer and I believe some of you will be here for it. Pat
Joined: Jun 2010
There are things we know change the odds
Like exercise, and things that can't hurt, like a healthy diet. Neither of these is touted as a "cure", just things that might help.
Phil is right when he says "who knows", at least up to a point. There is strong evidence that the treatment he is on works, but it is not a magic bullet that works for everyone, or even forever, and each time an oncologist starts someone on that program he is testing to see whether or not it works for that individual.
We tend to see "cancer" as a single disease, but it is not that simple. Even in CRC there are at least 5 different types of cancer, each reacting differently to treatment.
Joined: Feb 2011
I know you frustration very
I know you frustration very well, and who knows?? Dr.'s don't know. I know myself whenever I ask my onc. a question he always seems to answer "we do not know this" or "we cannot know this". All we gotta do is TRY!! I recently was reading somewhere that cancer treatment itself can cause leukemia showing up five years after you've been treated for breast and colon cancers, WTF!!!
Joined: May 2005
How can Anyone Know?
They can't, it's too complicated of a problem with too many variables.
I made a post last week that had an interesting video on what a CA high school student is working on.
Link to the post.
Calif. HS student devises possible cancer cure.
You might find it interesting Leena.
-phil
Direct link to story Calif. HS student devises possible cancer cure
Joined: Oct 2009
Needed to get out of my apartment and the walking to diner,
eating,walking/talking home with someone i know and now my mood has changed.....
Nevertheless,for me, probably my poor eating habits more than anything else (besides not doing first colonoscopy at 50 thereby allowing what was incubating in me to continue to thrive and grow eight years more)--too much burnt red meat,sugar,processed foods,too little fruit/veg,heavy reliance on pill-form nutrition--which probably fed tumor more than me;inadequate amount of sleep;constant stress both at work and home;past history of cigs and scotch;the only good thing (weights since teenager)wasn't nearly enough to overcome negatives....Thus, for me, having survived radiation,chemo and surgery,learning what i can of this disease and doing what i think i should based on what i've learnt is the logical course to pursue. However, with research often pointing in different directions,what do you do where consensus is lacking?
There are so many variables in this disease.If you now go to www.healthcanal.com and click on their cancer section the first item should be "Pitt Team Finds Protein That Keeps Balance Between Tumor Cell Growth and Suppression." Just about every day articles are published indicating yet another gene or protein that may or may not be involved in CRC,that may or may not prove to be instrumental in the progression or destruction of the cancer,etc....
Like all living matter,cancer cells are constantly trying to survive and the strongest will,overcoming chemo or radiation, becoming more powerful than ever and continuing to take over until death do we part from this parasite that arose within and from us. (To throw another wrench into the equation, there is a good possibility that the genetic makeup of liver mets are different that those of the primary CRC tumor)It seems like the cancer is always one or two steps ahead of the scientists.
Typing with two fingers i've been at this for some time now so i'll take a temporary rest and submit this now before i lose my internet connection and what i;ve so far typed.
Joined: Feb 2011
Thanks Phil, I saw that
Thanks Phil, I saw that article when you posted it before, she's an amazing young lady!!! But, in your other post I mentioned...how deep can an infrared light penetrate?? I'm thinking the tumors the mice had were basically on the surface where this could be done, but what about those systemic cancers say in lymphnodes can a light penetrate and do the same....who knows....hoepfully she's on to something great!!! I was reading the Colon Club forum and it seems Roswell Park is starting clinical trials on something that I would hope is promising.
Joined: May 2005
How Deep can Infrared Light Penetrate?
I tried (briefly) to find the answer and what comes up in searches is mainly using the light therapy for anti-aging purposes. I did find an article that says it can reach to our bones, I certainly think they can do that. Light is amazing and what they can do with it is too. I tend to believe that is least difficult part of the equation.
The idea behind this treatment is fascinating, the medicine (good for nothin' chemo...) can attach itself to diseased cells then the chemo can be let lose on the cells that need it. Much HAS been done over the years to make chemo more targeted and effective. This is yet another example of it. I'll have to check out the Roswell Park story.
Joined: Oct 2010
Would it be silly to wonder
Would it be silly to wonder why they could not open up the area that needed the infrared and and somewhat be closer and more precise with the target needing treatment. Ultrasound use, CT guided techniques, and that big arm thing they use when inserting pace makers could be even more instrumental in acuracy. ? I'm just a Nurse and you know what they say about us Nurses, we have been known to save pts from Drs. lol....meant with affection to our Drs here on the board :)
Joined: Jun 2009
"The Eyes - They Never Lie"
Look out over the landscape, Steve...what do your eyes see?
I spent all morning writing up my reply and then decided not to post it. Still, I can't rest now that you've awoken the lion this morning:)
Let me try this again. I suppose, I can sum up your question with this analogy:
If you put all of us in the same room - and we ate and drank the exact same things - and did all the same exercises - and took the exact same supplements - and all did the exact same treatment program (standard or alternative or combined)...
Then, what we will find is that, "Some of us will come out on the good side - and others will not."
Such is the nature of any contested event.
And because of that old and tired phrase we use here, "We all react differently."
And as Blake said, there are "diseases within the disease." For our cancer, we've got good ol' fashioned Adeocarcinoma and then there is Signet Ring Cell and Lynch Syndrome, which are very agressive and of hereditary nature.
This is the biggest reason I feel why 'The Cure' is not going to come for us - at least, not in the way that we are expecting it to.
Because a cure, connotates the belief that it will be a one size fits all - but how can that be? We can't even cure one of the many cancers within a specific cancer - and then 'the cure' is going to cure all the rest of the cancers?
Really?
And if we did have 'The Cure'..."we all react differently."
Exactly.
This is an individual fight...our bodies are going to respond one way or the other, no matter what we do. All we can do is do the things we think will help...nutrition, exercise, supplements all have their place and may help a certain individual...but there is no blanket cure and currently there is no panacea for cancer.
I believe that the greatest strides we are making today is in our longevity - we are currently "Renewing Our Lease on Life" through a myriad of approaches. This is where the real battles are won.
I used to believe I would be cured so much....didn't change to my 3rd recurrence...and then the lights came on...for some of us what we do or didn't do will keep us all well....for the other folks what we do or don't do will take us down an entirely different path.
It's "6 One Way - 1/2 Dozen the Other..."
But the reality of colorectal cancer is that it's the #2 killer in the U.S. and the world - and it didn't earn that distinction for nothing.
It doesn't get more serious than that. And those aren't "outdated statistics"....those numbers ring up steadily each and every year.
"So, what's the difference?"
The difference is that 40-years ago, the average life expectancy of a colorectal patients was just SEVEN MONTHS.....now through treatments and improved surgery, we are seeing colorectal patients EXTEND out to TEN YEARS and more...
That's where the real battle is being fought and won.
Cure is a moving target and once we "Swing the Barn Door Open", the cattle and livestock scatter like tumbleweeds on the prairie...and that's what happens when we metastasize and experience recurrence.
From there, our fights continue to escalate and this is what makes cancer such a formidable opponent.
Please don't delete this thread, Steve...it would be a huge disservice to the entire community - we all need to read this and begin to understand it and come to a point of acceptance at some point of our journey that these possibilities do exist and do happen.
It does not diminish our resolve in fighting, but we must prepare ourselves for the certain probabilities that each one of us have to face everyday.
And we have to stay with that mindset of "My story won't be their story."
But, then we should not be surprised if it does.
In the end - all we can do is what we can do - and then we take our chances. There is much in life that one does not understand, even as we grow older and wiser - the same can be said for cancer.
So, for all of us that have been or are affected from cancer - may we stand together and share our stories, for both the good and the bad. How else are we going to learn from one another if we don't tell the truth?
Our truest victory lies there.
Thank you, Steve, for such a thought provoking post. And I'm pleased to see you deep in reflective thought. There is a part of you now that wasn't there before...myself and others have just seen a change in you - and its a blessing for all to see.
Respectfully,
-Craig
Joined: Oct 2010
Yes, thank you Steve. This
Yes, thank you Steve. This is very thought provoking as Craig said. His words are perfect so I'm not even gonna try to come up with something different. And I think we all needed this conversation to make it through this day. At least I did. So I thank you all.
Gail
Joined: Jan 2007
Notations from the peanut gallery -
Re:
"The difference is that 40-years ago, the average life expectancy
of a colorectal patients was just SEVEN MONTHS.....now through
treatments and improved surgery, we are seeing colorectal
patients EXTEND out to TEN YEARS and more..."
There was a Scandinavian study some years back, that summed it
up very nicely: People aren't living longer with cancer, they are
just being diagnosed earlier.
Being diagnosed with colon cancer when it's in it's later stages,
with perhaps months to live, is not any better than being diagnosed
earlier and having years to live. We know about it sooner, and
have more time to worry about it, ehh? Maybe that's a good thing?
Re:
"as Blake said, there are "diseases within the disease." For our
cancer, we've got good ol' fashioned Adeocarcinoma and then there
is Signet Ring Cell and Lynch Syndrome, which are very agressive
and of hereditary nature. "
The industry and it's brainy teams love to obfuscate the facts.
A cancer cell begins life, and remains alive, by the fermentation
process. It is the most basic of life support forms. It's method
of life support does not change over it's life, it remains using
glucose for fermentation, and ejects lactic acid as waste. The
lactic acid is converted into glucose by the liver, and helps support
those same cancer cells.
What any life form uses for it's basic life support is what should
be of the main concern. Trying to kill that life form by attacking
other elements of that life form will work, but the list can be endless
with new elements formed in response to an attack on it's life.
Being informed that there are hundreds of "strains" and "disease types"
of the basic cancer cell only confuses the issue and makes the
problem appear to be more complicated than it actually is.
Sure, the cancer cell can be killed by attacking a certain enzyme,
but the basic reason for it's mere existence is not being addressed.
That cell will live on, just as it had begun living.
Remember that old saying?
"If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullship"
Corporate obfuscation at it's finest.
Knowing the basics often leads to answers when problems arise.
Diluting those basics with confusing themes and explanations
only leads to more confusion and time wasted.
Of course, when we get paid for our time to solve a problem,
why wouldn't we want to make things sound confusing?
(just some idle thoughts from a rambling mind)
May we see great health for all,
John
Joined: Oct 2009
Thats why i was rather surprised that "The Emperor of All
Maladies" made absolutely no mention of Otto Warburg, the only scientist whose name i was familiar with....
Joined: Jun 2010
Warburg
"Otto Warburg professed that the cancer problem could be solved if one could identify a biochemical difference between the energy-producing systems of normal cells (controlled growth) and cancer cells (uncontrolled growth.) His research with tissue slices 4 led to the discovery of oxygen-transferring enzymes in cellular respiration, and for this he won a Nobel Prize (l931). In l944 he won a second Nobel Prize for identifying the enzymes that transfer hydrogen in metabolism. But his research never showed that oxygen use by normal and cancer cells was different. What he did find was that cancer cells produced lactate from glucose in the presence of oxygen whereas normal cells only produced lactate from glucose in the absence of oxygen. This observation led him to conclude that energy metabolism in cancer cells was defective.
Although Warburg discovered some differences in metabolism between normal and cancer cells, research did not bear out what he considered to be the "primary cause of cancer," i.e., the replacement of respiration by fermentation
Over the next three decades research identified nearly all energy-producing metabolic pathways in both normal and cancer cells and showed that energy-producing systems in normal cells were the same as those found in cancer cells. Despite this, Warburg insisted until his death in l970 that the cause of cancer was "inferior" energy of anaerobic metabolism."
Warburg was a footnotes in Emperor (twice actually) whose ideas never led to a treatment (at least not an effective one). There is a large community that freezes the science in 1931 and ignore anything that came after that time period (mass production of antibiotics, polio vaccine, chemotherapy...).
Joined: Oct 2009
My limited knowledge of Warburg refers primarily to his
lecture of May 25,1955,"On the Origin of Cancer Cells" in which he argued the amount of energy a cell receives from fermentation as opposed to that from respiration is what differentiates a cancerous cell from a noncancerous cell. His name has come up periodically in the readings i indulge in as in the "Warberg effect",pertaining to a cell's ability to metabolize glucose . Don;t know how i overlooked references to him in"Emperor" as i've always read footnotes,etc.....I had also read that Yale Medical School was instrumental in the beginnings of chemoinfusion in the 1940s but missed reference in Mr Mukherjee's masterpiece.
And with this i'll rejoin you all tomorrow as its time to try to get some sleep,which is rarely more than twosolid hours in a row without me getting up piss and/or check my bag.......Pleasant reveries......
Joined: Jun 2010
Re:
"as Blake said, there are "diseases within the disease." For our
cancer, we've got good ol' fashioned Adeocarcinoma and then there
is Signet Ring Cell and Lynch Syndrome, which are very agressive
and of hereditary nature. "
The industry and it's brainy teams love to obfuscate the facts.
It is all a plot by SMERSH to control our precious bodily fluids!
Facts; obfuscated by an industry/not relevant to John
Joined: Jan 2012
Feeling alone in the middle of a crowd
Hi Steve and everyone else,
I know what you mean about feeling lost. Since I was diagnosed almost two years ago I've nearly completed my second Masters and working on a third Bachelors. Over the past several months, late at night when I can't sleep I start wondering why I push myself so hard in not just my academics but in fighting my cancer as well. Is it all really worth it? The pain that chemo has put into my hands and feet, the cracking and splitting of my skin, general feeling of malaise? When it takes a real physical effort to just sit and read a chapter in a book or being so wiped out from cooking dinner that I have to force myself to eat I really wonder if it's all worth while. Will I even be alive in a year or even a month? Will anything that I do matter not just to me but to anyone else? I don't know the answers to any of my questions, but I do know that I must continue to fight as hard and as long as I can.
From the day that the doc told me I was Stage IV I knew that the only way to beat cancer would be to die from something else. I will always have cancer, it is the luggage that I'll carry for the rest of my life. But to me it's like someone who is diabetic and has to go in for dialysis treatment. Sure, the chemo is doing terrible things to my body, but what the cancer would do without it is so much worse. With chemo maybe I'll die before I see summer again, I don't know. But without chem it's pretty much a fact that I won't make it even to spring. I know longer fear dying because I have absolute confidence that there is a Heaven and while I look forward to getting there, I'm not in any real big rush.
May God Bless and Keep all of you,
Ray
Joined: Oct 2010
I'm sure
...that the choices that we can find, that we make, and how well we follow through can make a big difference. Chemo vs surgery vs radiation is the big decision we had in 2011, and it was a tough slog to get the surgery, a big win. Alternative nutrition and chemo were the big choices for 2010 that paid off big time.
I think too many people stand around waiting for the oncology salesman to offer them another limited choice, where better, unadvertised choices go begging. I am hawkish on surgery, antiangiogenesis, and blood monitoring. Many effects can be measured and compared.
My biggest issue is whether other events, or people, interfere at critical points.
Joined: Oct 2009
While there's been nothing new approved by FDA since Vectibix
in 2006,most of our chemo isn't THAT old:
Avastin and Erbitux since 2004;
combo of Oxi,5-Flourouracil and Leucovorin from 2002
and Xeloda in 2001......
Of course, much more is needed....
Joined: Nov 2010
my family is asleep, we got to get to church
sometimes less is more,
the simple answer from my experience is yes,
and then sometimes more is better,
for me the difference is in my quality of life, my enjoyment and my example.
my wife goes to our naturopath, we all eat alot healthier foods.
my kids still love macdonalds, but most of the time they eat healthy meals.
my kids see me meditate, do yoga, we pray together, we live life to the full while
pursuing the healthiest choices.
they know the challenge in front of me, in front of us as a family.
i am proud of the example i am setting and the life skills i am giving them and how they behave. We all have challenges, my kids have some as well. look at their parents.
now do i go back to eating crap, go back to work to make another million, stop exercising, gain back 50 kilograms or 110 pounds, get stressed and live in our greedy and stupid society where most of us are influenced by the media. what i am doing is right for me and my family.
I have never compelled anyone here into anything i believe, we are all adults and have choice. now my lovelly kids are 6 and 10, they are asleep at 9.35am and i have to wake them so we can get to church at 10am. So i ascert myself as their father, thats my job, my role.
will what i do help against my crc, yes, it does not have a chance. Everyday i control and i do what i feel is right for me. If i get an extra 10 seconds on the planet, that will make it all worthwhile. praying for more than 10 seconds, leaving that up to god.
life is great and the extra 10 seconds is enough. As long as i hit the box smiling, i will be content. of course that will be when i am a 100. i hope..............
hugs,
Pete
Joined: Oct 2010
Very nice Pete...:)
Very nice Pete...:)
Joined: Aug 2010
Awesome thread; Could'nt add
Awesome thread;
Could'nt add anything better. Well said everyone.
Joined: Aug 2011
I remember feeling this way
I remember feeling this way when I was first diagnosed, like it wouldn't matter where I had my treatment, etc. I changed my way of thinking when it came to surgery and I knew I needed a very experienced surgeon to do the tricky surgery. Anyway, I'm trying to do what I can to be healthy and sometimes I feel like it can make a difference, other times it all seems so random to me. I don't really have anything new to add to the discussion except I understand. It is to me about striking a balance with the treatment yet wanting to feel like I've done my best to keep living for my family.
Joined: Aug 2005
I am also shaking my head...
I have no idea, but on this board, as well as my 'other' cancer, breast, board...we are losing many...
I had a gal I was supporting because we had the same surgery. Our surgeon asked me to call her. We became very, very good friends. I warned her not to compare herself to me...because we were different...different family background, different age, etc, but she was, I think, thinking that because we were so similar, she would have the same outcome. When she was dx'ed with a met, she was devastated. She was even a bit mad at me that I did so well (we were very open and honest, we talked thru alot, this included).
I CAN tell you that, in my case, that even though my family seems prone to cancer (mom endometrial and breast, me rectal and breast, my sis anal and breast) we seems also to recover easily and more rapidly from any and all diseases we have had (including cancer). I am fully convinced that our 'different' immune system has something to do with it...this is hereditary, and so nothing I change about my lifestyle is involved.
That said, I do believe that a better lifestyle, one of moderation in most things, can correct other troubles...high blood pressure, obeseity, alcohol and drug trouble. But, again, I try to live a happy life, because I accept the lesson learned from my serious brushes with cancer (the first, rectal, I was given 6 months to live) that life does not continue forever, and I need to be involved with the people around me that I love as much as possible.
IMHO, Knuffels (dutch hugs), Kathi
Joined: Nov 2001
G'day Steve
Right from day zero I have considered my self the accidental tourist of ca. I have made no great lifestyle changes. I seem to have so many different problems that whatever I do it's the wrong thing for something I have. So I work on the theory that if it makes me feel worse I don't do it. I don't drink or smoke cos they make me crook. I don't get much excercise because it hurts my neuropathy and arthritic back and joints too much. Unless it does not taste good or makes me feel unwell ,I eat it. I don't take medicines just because a doctor says I have to. I try em,if they dont help I don't take em. I haven't made a will. Never felt the need for one. I have often wondered if it's the fact that I don't really care is why I am still alive. Perhaps ca can't live with my attitude,who knows? Ron.
Joined: Feb 2011
Ron "accidental tourist"
Ron "accidental tourist" I love that.....get to a destination you don't like, move on and don't ever go back there :)
Joined: Apr 2011
Ron
I think you are right, it's the attitude it can't stand . My body keeps attacking me too, and I keep saying no, I'm gonna keep going. Wouldn't that be cool "just say no to cancer".