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Why can't we agree to disagree?

Sonia32's picture
Sonia32
Posts: 1078
Joined: Mar 2009

Just read Emily's post as I had seen it had shot up to 78 new messages.
Been coming here as some of you know since I got diagnosed back in 2009, and I know we have arguments about either religion or alternative medicine. This is why I remember once Donna saying to me, when it gets like this on here everyone goes and hangs out on FB.

Yes I know families argue, and having an argument is healthy at times, but when we are all in the same boat whether we are carers, in remission or still fighting, should we start attacking each other like we do at times? Whatever stage, being in the cancer club, you join a unique club, which unfortunately has numbers added to it every day. For some reason I was looking up young colon cancer survivors the other day, and I found so many stories of youngsters under the age of 25 with stage 4 cancer, some not even surviving it.

Makes you think, if your still around what may be the reason? be it religion, western medicine or alternative, in some cases all three for some. Just please remember every time you attack each other, be it unintentionally someone out there is losing their life to this evil disease, which I live by what John 23 said in a way, it's rouge cells in your body that have gone out of control.

Just lets all try and debate, argue rationally as we can, but not attack each other. Especially for the sake of the newbies on this board, who still need wise folk around, whether they believe in the alternative (Scouty and Emily), western (WM, Phil etc), Religion, all of us can give something to someone on this board.

My rant done, damn I'm too sensible at times. lol

Love and hugs to you all my family

dorookie
Posts: 1736
Joined: Jul 2007

but I second that, well said Sonya..

HUGS
Beth

John23's picture
John23
Posts: 2140
Joined: Jan 2007

I put your picture "full screen", and am hugging my laptop;
I hope you can feel the warmth !!

(please excuse me if my hands drift downward, ok? I'm Italian)

Best of health!

John

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
Posts: 4907
Joined: May 2005

Because people often have to think they are right, no matter what the cost. It seems like 99% of the time, the arguments have little, if anything, to do with the original topic. There's a difference between arguing and debating a topic.

Sonia, you're spot on with the hot topics that start this nonsense. It's treatment OPTIONS (important distinction, no one is forcing anyone to do a certain treatment) or religion. Two topics where no ultimate answers exist, just loads of personal opinions on them.

People act very differently on the Internet than in the "real world". I've noticed that on here and all of the other sites where people can be semi-anonymous that they often tend to behave differently than they would face to face. I seriously doubt they'd do half of the stuff they do on the internet. There are always exceptions of course, some people are just ___________.

This may, or may not, calm down but you can be sure that it will happen again.

laurettas
Posts: 372
Joined: May 2011

I will add my reasons again for being so obnoxious about this. I truly want to find something helpful for my husband because I KNOW that chemo is not very good for many people with stage IV colon cancer. The stats are rather dismal really. All I am asking for are numerous examples of any one type of alternative medicine working. It really shouldn't be that hard. If you have a practitioner helping you set up your protocol and you believe that it worked for you, it should be a small matter of going to that practitioner and asking them for documentation of all the people they have helped obtain the same results.

I have given three examples in my immediate family of western medicine working--my mother, father, and mother-in-law have all had cancer with no recurrences in 4-11 years. My husband, I believe, is an example of a divine healing by God which lasted 34 years. I know of several people who tried alternatives, some after western medicine, and some not. None of them survived. Most were advanced cases but one was not. The early stage did advance to stage IV before giving up on the alternative.

Is what I am asking for so unreasonable?

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
Posts: 4907
Joined: May 2005

I rest my case...

Laurettas, CANCER is not good for people. Some people actually do well with chemo.
Stats are for horse racing IMO.

If ALL you are asking if for are numerous examples of any one type of alternative medicine that is working, well, it sounds like you are asking for a surefire cure for cancer. Lots of luck with that. No one KNOWS what works 100% of the time. Some people benefit from both options, some don't benefit from anything.

You believe that God intervened on your husband's behalf. Did the intervention stop? Why? Wasn't it a 100% guarantee? If you were able to get "proof" of someone being cured by an alternative therapy what would you do with that? Bring it to the practitioner and make them sign it?

I wish your husband well.
I know cancer is tough on everyone involved and you want to do all that you can to help him. Asking for information is the way to go but being angry about not finding exactly what you want isn't helping your husband or yourself.
-phil

laurettas
Posts: 372
Joined: May 2011

do I sound angry? I am certainly not angry, phillieg. Determined maybe, but not angry. At this point in time my husband is choosing western medicine since it is shrinking the tumors. In the future, who knows, we may try an alternative method. My concern is that with his type of cancer, signet ring cell, it progresses so rapidly that if we spend two or three months on an alternative therapy that doesn't work, it may be too late. We have to have something that has some record of working because we don't have the time to try two or three. I certainly don't expect cures for every person but there should be a quantity, more than two or three, from an alternative method if it is something worth trying.

I don't mean to discount anyone's experience at all but one case is not sufficient for me to trust. As much as I appreciate Emily's youth and enthusiasm and beautiful spirit, her case is not one that "proves" anything as far as her alternative treatment. The surgery she received was certainly capable at that stage of curing her cancer. Scouty's case sounds more substantial because of it's stage but she is one case. As Buckwirth's earlier link pointed out, a certain amount of cancer goes into remission and people just don't know why. So I need more than one example to trust a particular method.

Don't quite understand what you are trying to say about my husband's cure in the past. I don't know if you have noticed, but I have never told anyone that if they believed and prayed enough, God would cure them. What we received was pure gift, something we never anticipated nor expected. It was as much of a surprise to us as anyone. As a matter of fact, we didn't even put his cancer disappearing together with the vision he had for many years. It was years before we understood that God had intervened in my husband's cancer. And we do not expect the same thing to happen this time. We have no right at all to expect that. God does what he does for his reasons and I certainly don't know what they are! Right now I am just praying for a cure for cancer for everyone. And who knows, with everything that is coming out in the news, that may be around the corner!

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
Posts: 4907
Joined: May 2005

I thought "angry" was a less obnoxious word to use.
;-)

I think people like Emily, Lisa (42 and Scouty), John, Craig, Buzz, myself, and many others have something in common. Some of us have been up the creek and came down OK, others are still up the creek. WHY does this variety of people who have had different treatments done so well?
A T T I T U D E.
We all have one, but it's the good attitudes that can SOMETIMES make a difference. This isn't to say that if you don't do well you have an attitude problem, or that if you're doing well you have a good attitude. I strongly believe that a good attitude will get you a lot further along in life (cancer or no cancer) than a lousy one.

Faith (a belief in something) is a very powerful thing. That certainly could have played a big part in your husband's remission. Maybe faith in alternative treatments can have a positive effect on someone? You seem like you ask for proof of alternative treatments working. It's like me asking you for proof that you and your husband's faith was what sent him into remission. It can't be proved. That doesn't mean it may not have played a part in his remission.

I really don't understand how comparing Emily's and Scouty's staging really has anything to do with anything. MAYBE if one were comparing a pre-cancerous polyp to stage IV then you'd have something there. Stage III is a heartbeat away from stage IV. Still, even two cases doesn't mean that it's a surefire way to beat cancer. We are unique, we all have different bodies that react differently to cancer and to treatments. I don't mean to over simplify it but I think it is that simple. One cure doesn't fix all.

I do hope that we can find a cure for this disease or at least a better, safer way to treat it.
-phil

laurettas
Posts: 372
Joined: May 2011

I am OFTEN obnoxious without being angry--it's just a gift I have!

Now to the clarification. Our faith had nothing to do with my husband's healing. We didn't have enough faith to cure a hangnail at the time. As I said, it was pure gift. I was just getting to the point of believing that a God might exist when my husband got cancer.

As far as staging being different, I believe that up to stage 3 it is not uncommon for surgery to remove all of the cancer. With stage 4 however no one knows for sure just where the cancer has spread so surgery is much less likely to be curative. My father's stage 3 was more advanced than Emily's--I believe over half of his nodes tested positive--but he has not had a recurrence since 2001. Now I could say that Hostess desserts and potato chips are the reason but I really don't think that is the case even though those are the things that he consistently eats! Oh, and a pot or two of coffee as well!

I have a bit of a problem with the attitude comments. I think that can add stress to people's lives in that you can feel guilty or worried if you are sad or angry or depressed or whatever. It might be possible that trying to hide and suppress those emotions can cause as much harm as good. I just try to keep a generally positive outlook but when those "negative" feelings come, oh, well, they are there and I will let them be until they get resolved. Again, Buckwirth's link had a great story about the attitude idea as well. So many unknowns that can make all of this so confusing. Oh, well, just keep praying and looking for that cure that has to come one day. There have been so many horrible diseases in the past that are now almost unheard of today. That goodness for medical progress!

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
Posts: 4907
Joined: May 2005

Whatever works for each of us and whatever we choose to believe...

Sundanceh's picture
Sundanceh
Posts: 4408
Joined: Jun 2009

If what you were asking for was available, you would have already gotten it on this forum, because all of the alternative folks have already replied to you. They are the only "numerous" examples that you seek, as the rest of us are WM or WM w/supplements.

You've already seen it for yourself - people you know each trying different methodologies, some with success and others not.

There is no panacea for cancer - if it were out there and that clear cut, you'd have heard of it by now.

The best weapon we have against cancer is surgery - running with chemo or alternatives as your ONLY weapon, is not going to yield the positive results we would expect. No one I know here has had the success they've had with any treatment option they do, WITHOUT SURGERY.

Sure chemo is hard on a stage IV, it's hard for anyone. I've done chemo 51 times myself and have been actively fighting cancer for 7-years and 3-months and counting. I'm currently back to a watch and wait state after battling my third recurrence over this past 12-months.

Sure, the statistics are dismal - it's stage IV cancer. But, I'm going to be in the "Dismal" 7% of the population that survives stage IV cancer for a 5-year period. After that, I don't know and neither does anybody else.

There is no single answer to cancer, plain and simple. I understand how you're trying to give your husband the best chance at survival but from what I've read the alternative folks have told you what they know and what their experiences are.

Currently, that's all we have on the board. The rest of us battle it out with surgery, radiation and chemo.

It's not so much that what you seek is unreasonable, it's just that none of us have found it yet.

Best wishes.

laurettas
Posts: 372
Joined: May 2011

I think you have answered my question. After reading all of the posts on this forum and a couple of others, I have to come to the conclusion that we are limited primarily to what the western medicine has to offer. I see many more stage 4 people living a substantial amount of time using western medicine--you being one of them!--than I have seen of all of the alternative methods combined. I was hoping for more but, as you say, it isn't there.

John23's picture
John23
Posts: 2140
Joined: Jan 2007

laurettas -

Re:
"After reading all of the posts on this forum and a couple of
others, I have to come to the conclusion that we are limited
primarily to what the western medicine has to offer. I see many
more stage 4 people living a substantial amount of time using
western medicine"

I had to blot the coffee out of my laptop to type this. I hate
when coffee comes out my nose like that!

laurettas...... You are reading at a website provided by the
American Cancer Society, and the NCI, both of which are heavily
supported by the medical industry.

When I first read at this site (back in '06) It was impossible to
find anything at all regarding any "alternative" to Western medicine.

In '07, I decided to join the group and hopefully share my personal
experiences with Traditional Chinese Medicine.

laurettas, I was nearly banished from this site for making any
comments regarding an "alternative to western medicine".

It has only been in the past couple of years that individuals
became more vocal regarding their quest for "something different",
and the board managed to morph into a more encompassing
ideology, where anything that may help fight cancer was allowed
to be broadcast here.

Your comment regarding your judgement of an alternative by
the lack of "survivors" you see on this board is amusing, for lack
of a better term.....

Try Googling: "TCM Cancer forum" and see what you might find.

Try Googling: "Chemotherapy alternative forum" And poke around
some of those forums.

But trying to get a definitive answer regarding "the best treatment"
is indeed a lesson in futility. There are absolutely no guarantees
anything will work to get rid of cancer cells, if there were, we
would not have cancer.

Do yourself a favor, and seek specific info where you will
find that specific info; you don't look for new evening dress styles
in a hardware store.

My very best hopes for you and yours,

John

laurettas
Posts: 372
Joined: May 2011

John,
Checked out the first Google you recommended. Here are a couple of things I saw:

A comment from the Chinese medicine salon:

In China doctors always combine traditional Chinese and western medicine together. Many clinical reports show integrated therapy is better than any single therapy.

We shouldn’t only use Chinese medicine to treat cancer, but Chinese medicine can definitely play a very important role in the cancer treatment.

From AsiaOne.com:

He cautioned, however, that TCM alone cannot effectively treat cancer and should not be used as a primary mode of treatment. Rather, herbal remedies play an auxiliary role, by helping to relieve symptoms associated with cancer treatments.

Will check more later.

John23's picture
John23
Posts: 2140
Joined: Jan 2007

(haha)

Be sure to try and read the positive reports also!

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I'm
just trying to open your eyes and your mind.

If I can't at least do that much, my presence here
is in vain.

(I don't get paid to sit here, ya'know?)

My best.... (fwtw)

John

Lovekitties's picture
Lovekitties
Posts: 3341
Joined: Jan 2010

You ask...Is what I am asking for so unreasonable?

Perhaps 'unreasonable' is not the word but should be replaced with 'overly optomistic.

Each person is so unique. We are a product of our genes, our environment, our diets, our emotions, etc., etc.

That is what makes the cancer fight so difficult. What 'cures' for one, may have no effect for another. Yes, chemo is a difficult path. But again, what helps one does not quarantee it will help all. And what helps today, may not help tomorrow or next month.

Only the doctors involved in clinical trials or studies do the kind of documentation that you are asking about. Why?, because they understand that no two patients are exactly alike because of all the variables.

I know you want a cure for your husband. But don't assume that because folks don't give you the answers you are looking for that they don't care. If any of us had the knowledge of a cure regardless of whether it was western, TCM, alternative, juicing or from some alien planet...we would be shouting it all over the world.

Marie who loves kitties

Sonia32's picture
Sonia32
Posts: 1078
Joined: Mar 2009

when it gets like this. Feeling slightly down now, my intention was to try and make a positive post. Stages, it's not a competition, but yes stage 4 is what the 'doctors' think is the worst stage to be at. Now for someone who said on Emily's post what proof is there that stage 1 or 2 can die, you just have to read forums online and you'll find out. People on here have jumped from stage 2 to 4. So whoever made that comment needs to educate themselves more.

Laurette (apologise if I spell your name incorrectly), not sure if I read Phil's reply right but you have faith in God? I do as well, as many others on this board. So if someone like Emily is trying to share what she believes in what is wrong with that? She or any of the others are not ramming it down our throats it's there for us as additional info in our fight against this disease. We who believe could alternatively share our beliefs about prayer etc, but to those who may jump in I know we argue about that but trying to make a point.

So if we all share about what helps us, and we decide to take it or not isn't that a good thing? Then just sitting at home alone with this disease and not knowing anything?

Know your angry, but that is understandable as your a care giver (which many of us have been including myself, as well as being a patient). Just try and see we are all trying to help each other as patients/carers.

Might as well go and start lurking again

Buckwirth's picture
Buckwirth
Posts: 1272
Joined: Jun 2010

Lauretta's comments were never a problem. In fact, she had quite a civil conversation with John.

The main problem was going off topic, and the topic was, at its core, political (for the record, it was an opinion piece attempting to gain support for proposed legislation in the state of California). In a political discussion (not allowed on this site, but so be it) things might get a bit heated.

Winter Marie put the icing on the cake, but innocently. In making her point she used Emily and herself as a contrasting example (a perfectly fair way to make a point), along with a bit of humor. If you re-read it carefully, she was not attacking Em, but she was clearly disagreeing with her. It may have been impolitic to use Emily to make her point, but it was not an "attack".

The question is, do we as a community want to present only one side to any issue? A place where if I post that wearing red shoes cures bunions the only allowed responses are ones of support?

laurettas
Posts: 372
Joined: May 2011

I am not trying to discount anyone's experience because they are all valid. My concern is with those who promote alternative treatments as being extremely beneficial without the corresponding history to show that it is true. The reason I am concerned is for those people like the one mentioned on another thread and the one I heard about from a doctor friend that had an early, very treatable cancer, went the alternative route and ended up at stage 4.

I truly don't see why asking for examples of other people using the same treatment having good results is divisive or negative. I gave examples of three people in my immediate family that had no recurrences after their western treatments. I could list many more people that I know who had prostate and breast cancer that had similar positive results. Why can the alternative treatment people not do the same? John says that TCM is thousands of years old. Then there should be millions of cases of positive results from using that method. Unless it was never intended to treat cancer in the first place.

This is a public forum with the ACS symbol. I believe that people have the right to come here and get honest information. I have learned so much that has helped my husband deal with his symptoms and seen the love and concern for one another on these sites. There are so many encouraging stories from many people who have outdone the statistics by leaps and bounds that has raised my spirits tremendously concerning this beast that my husband has. I just don't want what one person experiences to influence others' treatment decisions if it is just an isolated case. That is all I am trying to do is to make sure that the information here is valid and verifiable.

Lovekitties's picture
Lovekitties
Posts: 3341
Joined: Jan 2010

You said..."I just don't want what one person experiences to influence others' treatment decisions if it is just an isolated case. That is all I am trying to do is to make sure that the information here is valid and verifiable"

First of all, everyone who comes here knows, or should, that none of us are 'medical experts' and do not 'prescribe' for others. Those who offer information are doing so based on their own experiences, and more often than not tell folks to check with their own medical team about issues, changes in protical, etc.

Second, your statement about making sure the information is valid and verifiable makes me wonder about your motive here. I can understand wanting to check further before you recommend something for your husband's treatment, but it is not yours, mine or anyone else's responsibility or right to determine what influences someone else's decisions. Decisons are personal. If I choose to follow John23 in TCM, Scouty in juicing, Lisa42 in supplements, that is my choice and it is my responsibility to assess it.

It is your choice to decide what you gain or don't from the experiences of others, but please don't misunderstand the function of these stories. Each and every one of them is valid and verifiable for the person telling them. If in some way it causes someone else to seek more information or to make a decision change, that is up to them.

We are each responsible for our own choices and I beleive that each person here is intelligent enough to make the right choice for them.

ketziah35
Posts: 1154
Joined: Jun 2010

0i don't know,but everytime I post, there are certain people that I hope do not respond. They just change the tone of the post to something divisive. I have learned to ski their posts and move on.

plh4gail's picture
plh4gail
Posts: 1238
Joined: Oct 2010

This argument/opinion is getting very old and boring. Click the "like" button if you agree.

TMac52's picture
TMac52
Posts: 358
Joined: Aug 2010

Like

jjaj133's picture
jjaj133
Posts: 869
Joined: Mar 2011

like

maglets's picture
maglets
Posts: 2596
Joined: Jun 2006

last time I posted yawn and got in trouble.......pleeeeeze.....enough

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
Posts: 4907
Joined: May 2005

They're very good at dissecting things.
Don't fret Gail, some comment is bound to get flagged, then the post will be removed.
Forty-eight hours later, a new post will ask "What happened to the post about blah, blah, blah?"
To which someone will say "They removed it".
That will be followed by the cry of "CENSORSHIP!!!".

Then that post will have about 60-70 replies about the free speech vs. terms and conditions of a web site argument. Three or four people will get banned, five or six will leave for FB for a month, then one person (who was on vacation will return) will ask "What happened???" and it will start again until we realize what happened.

We can usually squeeze four or five weeks of "peace" in here if we're lucky.
Then the cycle begins again.

:-)

or...is this the time we break the cycle?

z's picture
z
Posts: 1413
Joined: May 2009

Very Funny and so true.

plh4gail's picture
plh4gail
Posts: 1238
Joined: Oct 2010

lol thats funny!

jjaj133's picture
jjaj133
Posts: 869
Joined: Mar 2011

too funny and very true.

John23's picture
John23
Posts: 2140
Joined: Jan 2007

I had to go out....

WHAT HAPPENED ?

Buckwirth's picture
Buckwirth
Posts: 1272
Joined: Jun 2010

someone else posted in your name.

I disagreed with something they said.

Another person felt hurt.

Someone else threatened to leave.

A fifth person asked us all to get along.

At this point I became confused and am now posting on the UOAA board.

What were we talking about?

Sundanceh's picture
Sundanceh
Posts: 4408
Joined: Jun 2009

Boy, that's it and the truest thing I have ever read, Phil.

Every word so true, that's it's funny -but dead on with your accuracy.

Great way to make a point with your usual humor, of course:)

-Craig

lisa42's picture
lisa42
Posts: 3661
Joined: Jul 2008

Here, here! You're so right!

By the way, I love your profile pic- hilarious!

Lisa

2bhealed's picture
2bhealed
Posts: 2085
Joined: Dec 2001

Like like like

karen40's picture
karen40
Posts: 211
Joined: Aug 2011

like

maglets's picture
maglets
Posts: 2596
Joined: Jun 2006

philly...you are so totally right....I have just been sitting outside reading one of my cancer diaries......entry over and over again....."forum fighting again"

hhaa...you are right

mags

marqimark's picture
marqimark
Posts: 242
Joined: Jun 2011

Attacking people that have our issues doesn't make sense.

Hugs

Mark

son of hal
Posts: 117
Joined: Mar 2011

Like

Kimo Sabe's picture
Kimo Sabe
Posts: 64
Joined: Aug 2011

Maybe in the direction of topic here. It is six in the morning and I am not here because I am an early riser.  I'm here because of insomnia from my Oxaliplatin treatment yesterday. I think actually it was the premedication with Emend and Dexamethasone. 

As a newbie, I don't have a dog in the fight. I think I've seen this discussion a couple of times before in my short time here.

Now I'm humming:  There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong............
Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly say, hooray for our side.

   With my cancer, I have less time for dissidence . There were many good pearls above, however  I find the power in this group to be its diversity, its compassion, its knowledge, its experience, its support, its honesty, and humor.  I think I could enjoy dinner or go party with almost everyone here. Especially if they enjoy dumb jokes and old television comedies like the honeymooners.  We will have to wait until December  ( EOC-end of chemo) before I can enjoy some good fermented grape juice or a tall Mojito. 

Our commonality of cancer is truly a tie that binds. Binds more than just our bowels.

Well my insomnia is improved and I will send this note later on. Ciao,
Norm

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