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Interesting Article

thready's picture
thready
Posts: 475
Joined: Sep 2009

Here is link to an interesting article about getting our immune systems to fight off cancer cells that are roaming about. Find it here: http://www.cancercompass.com/cancer-news/article/33475.htm?c=NL20100519

Take care,
Jan

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tootsie1's picture
tootsie1
Posts: 5056
Joined: Feb 2008

Sounds good!

*Hugs*
Gail

robinvan's picture
robinvan
Posts: 1014
Joined: May 2007

It is truly amazing what they are coming up with. I've used a couple of life saving treatments that weren't available when I was first diagnosed. I'm currently being treated with Erbitux, and it seems to be working well.

I look forward to the next generation of cancer fighting medicine. I too hope I'm around to benefit from some of it. Better yet, I hope I'm around but cured so that I don't need them!

TTFN... Rob; in Vancouver

John23's picture
John23
Posts: 2140
Joined: Jan 2007

Oxford Biomedical's "Trovax" was designed to do what this article
talks about. It was looking like a great thing, until a major chemotherapy
drug manufacturer invested into it.

The company insisted on using the Immunotherapy drug as an
adjunct to chemo, and it failed test after test.

And why wouldn't it fail? It was designed to use one's immune system
to fight the cancer, and the chemo weakens or destroys the immune
system, rendering it too weak to fight.

Prior to that, Trovax was showing fantastic results with various types
of cancers, but the new "testing" also included testing on cancer from
organs it hadn't been previously tested on.

According to this article, we'll have to wait ten years....

Even without cancer, at my age...... I probably won't be around to
see this anyway.

And we call ourselves "free".

BAH

zenmonk
Posts: 198
Joined: Nov 2009

but it didnt really say what it was. is it just a theory, is it some nutritional program, or is it just some medicine?

John23's picture
John23
Posts: 2140
Joined: Jan 2007

"The problem: Many tumors don't have enough antigens to trigger the immune system. When tumors are small, the immune system is not properly activated, Gilboa says.

"Oncology knows how to get rid of big tumors you can see and surgically remove or radiate," Gilboa said. "Most patients die when the disease spreads to areas we don't know about or can't access. This is where the immune system has the advantage."

Gilboa and his team manipulated the body's DNA and RNA to induce the cancer cells scattered through the body to "express," or produce, more antigens. It makes them easier to spot by the immune system.

In the lab, the process eliminated tumors in rats. "

From here: CancerCompass

I can't for the life of me, understand why this thousands of years old
Chinese/Asian concept has been disregarded by western medicine for so long.

(Oh wait.... money... and greed)

jscho
Posts: 62
Joined: Jun 2009

"I can't for the life of me, understand why this thousands of years old Chinese/Asian concept has been disregarded by western medicine for so long."

I didn't know that using siRNA to inhibit nonsense-mediated messenger RNA decay was an "ancient Chinese secret".

Seriously though, there are many research groups attempting to use immunology, which is widely recognized as a promising avenue for cancer therapeutics. There are inherent difficulties with the approach that have slowed the pace of progress.

Hopefully something will come of this approach soon.

I do agree with your general opinion that the body is a resilient and adaptable organism that has evolved many ways of naturally resisting disease, and that these are perhaps under-appreciated. Cancer also provides a vivid demonstration of natural selection and the role of mutations in evolution, including the way in which immunological resistance is acquired. It is a natural process.

Best,
Jeremy

B

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coloCan
Posts: 1956
Joined: Oct 2009

so does the cancer and , like us, it will do what it takes to survive, adapting to the chemicals we use to kill it (like roaches get used to and then become immune to insecticides so others are devised)and doing what it can to defeat our immune systems and the other means of our defense. There is alot of research being done on cancer in general, CRC in particular but not nearly enough R&D money as needed; and the future will see more coming down with various types of cancer as more people live longer than ever before. Potential avenues of attack are vaccines (I believe one recently approved for another type, which I forget now, of cancer); nanotechnology-my personal favorite; immune system boosters; genetic/genome profiling, etc. Unfortunately for most of us, the time when any of this becomes readily available after being proven effective remains in the future. Much effort is devoted to find ways to attack the cancer with less collateral damage than currevtly available chemicals, the effects of which most of us have already experienced.,,,,,,steve

John23's picture
John23
Posts: 2140
Joined: Jan 2007

Actually...

Re:
"I didn't know that using siRNA to inhibit nonsense-mediated
messenger RNA decay was an "ancient Chinese secret"."

The "secret" is that the methods used in TCM can cause the
cancer cells to release chemicals that the immune system seems
to manage to identify as "foreign", causing the immune system to
attack the cancer cells.

The terminology of early TCM diagnosis and treatment do not
include western medicine's terminology and "names" for specific
body functions and/or health issues. That does not mean or infer
that the early Chinese culture knew less than present day medicine
men and their miracle drugs.

I had been told that my Atrial Fibrillation could only be "fixed" by
having a surgical treatment to score the inside of my arteries to dispel
errant electrical energy.

TCM treatment for that same malady consists of herbs and/or acupuncture
to treat the liver for a deficiency. The deficiency causes irregular and
sporadic heartbeats.

Two of my western medicine physicians laughed at me when I
described it, but agreed that the chemicals generated by the liver are
indeed used by the brain to control and regulate the heart.

My AF is totally cured, thanks to some herbs. It saved me from having
an operation that commonly results in either an aneurysm at the point
of scarring, or an area in that artery that blood clots habitually form.

The nomenclature is be different, as are the methods of practice and
the results.

Western medicine's science dedicates itself to removing symptoms only,
while TCM dedicates itself to removing the problem, and that in turn
removes the symptoms of that problem.

The options to cancer treatment remain; the alternatives to the money-mill
are still there, just as they always have been. It only takes the courage to
seek them out, and use them.

I hope we all live long lives, in spite of the cancer within, and regardless
of our paths taken.

jscho
Posts: 62
Joined: Jun 2009

"The "secret" is that the methods used in TCM can cause the cancer cells to release chemicals that the immune system seems to manage to identify as "foreign", causing the immune system to attack the cancer cells."

John23, this is quite interesting. Is it documented somewhere? How did you come across this information?

I used a TCM practitioner before and throughout my chemo treatment. My practitioner was actually a cancer researcher before opening her clinic:
http://www.xiaolanhealthcentre.com/

Incidentally, she was fully supportive of me pursuing western treatment (i.e. chemo).

There is lots of TCM available here in Toronto because of the large Chinese population.

Best,
Jeremy

John23's picture
John23
Posts: 2140
Joined: Jan 2007

There are as many different practitioners of TCM as there are of
western medicine.

The orthodox TCM practitioner disregards most of western medicine's
titling of various malady, and confines belief and diagnosis to the
most basic terms.

Wind, fire, dampness, etc are all expressions of what is happening
inside our bodies according to orthodox TCM. The inclusion of
western medicine practices and terminology was due to the public
demand for faster remedies and a more "professional" western medicine
sound to their diagnosis and treatment.

We get sick over a long period of decline of health, and expecting to
"feel better within the hour" after years of suffering, is the western medicine
modus operandi.

Getting rid of symptoms is easier than fixing the actual problem,
and fixing the actual problem can take almost as much time as it
took to get to that sorry stage. Most people can't wait that long,
and want to know in a word they can understand, what they have
and how fast it can be fixed.

That's why we have western medicine's high blood pressure pill,
and now TCM's herbs that will do essentially the same thing.

It's unfortunate that it gets headed in that direction, since many
TCM practitioners are giving patients a quick cure, and the patients
aren't sticking around for the real cure. Hey, the pain's gone,
the BP is fine, seeya' later. For some TCM practitioners, it's
become only a branch of western medicine.

That said......

I listed twice on this forum, some herbs that are well known to
kill cancer cells. I hate to keep doing that, for fear of being tossed
out. No, not paranoia, reality! The FDA got the FCC to penalize
web sites that were claiming herbs would kill cancer. Numerous
very informative web sites that were not selling a thing, are no
longer around. Thankfully, our government has no control in
other countries, and other informative websites are still available.

If you do a search for the list here, I' sure you'll find it. If not, I'll
post a link to it for you, in a PM.

Oh wait.. here: http://csn.cancer.org/node/183225

It has now been realized by modern science, that when cancer cells
die, they release chemicals that aren't normally in our system in
great abundance. Our immune system, when working properly,
identifies the rogue dying cell, and promptly finishes it off.

Then, remarkably, the immune system continues on, killing cells
that have those chemicals that it has already identified as rogue.

TCM's herbs that kill cancer cells, also help build the immune system
to enable it to continue the fight against cancer cells.

Is it 100%? Of course not. What in life is? Does it have side effects?
No. Does it cause cancer? No. Does it weaken your immune system?
silly question... no, just the opposite.

Now, western medicine research (as indicated in some other posts)
is headed into the direction of TCM, by attempting to formulate
compounds that will cause a cell to die and release it's chemicals,
allowing the immune system to do the work.

To me, it sounds awfully familiar to what's been practiced for
thousands of years in another culture.....

If one has a tumor that is life endangering if not removed quickly
(as I had), then surgery, radiation, chemo, anything that will
fix the immediate problem, has to be the resolution. If an herb will
work that fast, great.... but I personally don't know of any that's
taken in a decoction, that can. There are some herbs that are
injected into the tumor or blood system directly that might work,
but I have no personal experience or information to share.

Anyway, I hope I answered the question?

Better health!

John

jscho
Posts: 62
Joined: Jun 2009

Thanks for your clarification John. I was hoping for a more "western science" answer, as that is my background (I deal with molecular biology in my work). I thought that perhaps this connection between cell death and an immune response had been published in science journals.

I'm not sure what "chemicals" the dying cells emit that you are referring to, but there are things like the tumor necrosis factors and particularly the Fas ligand that directly activate receptors that start cell suicide. Often dying cells trigger the death of neighboring cells using these (i.e. inter-cellular communication), but this isn't really an immune response. Immunology is incredibly complex, but usually there are antigen-detecting antibodies or receptors on T-cells and NK cells that identify foreign or "rogue" cells and become activated. This activation leads to the full panoply of immune response whereby foreign cells can be blown apart. Surviving cancer cells typically develop mechanisms of bypassing both the T-cell and NK-cell responses by producing and releasing proteins that turn off NK cells while giving T-cells lots of binding sequences by over-expressing the MHC that bring peptide fragments to the cell surface. This is one of the things that must be overcome in developing an immunological therapy.

Can you frame your response in this kind of language to help me understand?

Thanks for the link to the Chinese herbs. This gives me a string to tug on to find out how some of them may work from a western perspective.

Best,
Jeremy

John23's picture
John23
Posts: 2140
Joined: Jan 2007

Re:
"there are antigen-detecting antibodies or receptors on T-cells
and NK cells that identify foreign or "rogue" cells and become
activated. This activation leads to the full panoply of immune
response whereby foreign cells can be blown apart. Surviving
cancer cells typically develop mechanisms of bypassing both the
T-cell and NK-cell responses by producing and releasing proteins
that turn off NK cells while giving T-cells lots of binding sequences
by over-expressing the MHC that bring peptide fragments to the cell surface.

Can you frame your response in this kind of language to help me understand?"

Yes. In fact, I'll type it exactly the way I read yours:

有抗原檢測抗體或受體的T細胞和NK細胞識別外來或“無賴”,成為激活細胞。
這充分活化導致的免疫反應,使一整套外來細胞可以被吹除。癌症存活下來
的細胞通常都繞過發展機制的T細胞和NK細胞產生和釋放的回應蛋白質關閉
NK細胞,同時給予 T細胞大量的結合序列過度表達的MHC是帶來肽片段到細胞表面。
(Seriously.... you're kidding, right?)

Here's a few that might interest you:
http://www.nature.com/cdd/journal/v15/n1/full/4402267a.html
http://www.lef.org/protocols/cancer/cancer_vaccines_01.htm
http://www.cbcrp.org/research/PageGrant.asp?grant_id=2646

Your comment:
"I thought that perhaps this connection between cell death and an
immune response had been published in science journals."

The topic of cell death and immune response is in many journals, but
we're talking about the death of a cancer cell, and how the chemicals
of that cell can energize the immune response.

That concept is in the journals as well....

It's accepted that the cancer cell releases CEA when it dies,
hence the rise in CEA during chemotherapy or radiation treatments.
Other products are also released, and those, like CEA, are not
usually normal to our system. So the concept is, that once the
immune system "sees" these chemicals, it attacks the source, and
in this case, the source is cancer cells.

Why the immune system doesn't "see" those products prior to the
cancer cell dying, might be due to the low level of chemicals that
the cancer cell is giving off while it is staying alive via fermentation.
The increased amount that's released when it expires, may be what's
providing a clearer signal to the immune system.

"Teaching" the immune system to attack isn't a new concept,
or a rare concept; Immunotherapy is based on that concept.

By the way, it might interest you to know that Merck has been
experimenting with one of those herbs on my list with hopes of
synthesizing it.

Their problem will be in finding the exact component that actually
kills cancer cells, since the one herb alone will not do it; the herb
must be used with a second herb to accomplish the action.

It's not unusual to find a major chemotherapy company investing
millions into something that is destined to fail with their testing.

We once called incidents like that "job security".

It's about the money, Jeremy; I truly believe that.

Stay well, my friend.

jscho
Posts: 62
Joined: Jun 2009

"有抗原檢測抗體或受體的T細胞和NK細胞識別外來或“無賴”,成為激活細胞。
這充分活化導致的免疫反應,使一整套外來細胞可以被吹除。癌症存活下來
的細胞通常都繞過發展機制的T細胞和NK細胞產生和釋放的回應蛋白質關閉
NK細胞,同時給予 T細胞大量的結合序列過度表達的MHC是帶來肽片段到細胞表面。
(Seriously.... you're kidding, right?)"

Ha! That was funny. How do you get those characters to appear? It is a translation of my text, right?

"Here's a few that might interest you:
http://www.nature.com/cdd/journal/v15/n1/full/4402267a.html
http://www.lef.org/protocols/cancer/cancer_vaccines_01.htm
http://www.cbcrp.org/research/PageGrant.asp?grant_id=2646"

Thanks for these!

"Why the immune system doesn't "see" those products prior to the
cancer cell dying, might be due to the low level of chemicals that
the cancer cell is giving off while it is staying alive via fermentation.
The increased amount that's released when it expires, may be what's
providing a clearer signal to the immune system."

I rather doubt this is important, as the immune system can respond and amplify a response to small concentrations of pathogens. I think many other hypotheses are analyzed in the links you posted, which I'll look at.

"It's about the money, Jeremy; I truly believe that."

I know you have stated this before. Although I don't post much here, we've had that conversation!

"Stay well, my friend."

Thanks! Best wishes to you as well.
Jeremy

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