CSN Login
Members Online: 1

You are here

Red Meat! In the news again..... Are YOU still not convinced?

dianetavegia's picture
dianetavegia
Posts: 1953
Joined: Mar 2009

This is on the news today. This info is on red meats, etc. and survival time for ovarian cancer but the same type info has been released regarding colon cancer:

Good Diet May Aid Ovarian Cancer Survival

Comparing Food Choices

Healthy food patterns were linked with longer survival times, although some foods had a stronger association than others. "To pinpoint exactly how much survival [was lengthened] is not possible," she tells WebMD. "It varies from person to person." Many factors affect survival, such as the stage of the cancer at diagnosis and the woman's age.

It also varied depending on the foods. For instance, Dolecek found that yellow and cruciferous vegetables (broccoli, cauliflower, kale) seem particularly beneficial. ''At five years, 75% of the women who ate less than one serving a week of yellow vegetables were alive, compared to about 82% of those who had three or more servings of yellow vegetables a week," she says.

Those who ate the most red meat, processed meat, and cured meat had a briefer survival time. When the researchers looked at red meat lovers vs. avoiders, "we found almost a threefold risk of dying for those women who ate four or more servings of red meat a week compared to those who ate less than one serving per week over the 11-year study period," Dolecek says.

Full Story HERE

Here's a link to how we should eat!
Healthy Diet for colon cancer HERE

lisa42's picture
lisa42
Posts: 3661
Joined: Jul 2008

Hi Diane,

Thanks for the info and links! I read them and have saved the specifics to my computer. I have GOT to take this all a lot more seriously. I've already talked to my husband about it and he has become much more supportive. Whether I have his support or not, however, this is my life and I have got to find the willpower and determination to do this. I THINK I have finally found it! It still won't be easy, as my kids are already looking at our quite full refrigerator and pantry and saying "there's nothing to eat". No- there's no donuts, cookies, sweet cereals (actually there are two boxes of sweet cereals along with the healthkier ones), etc. I'm trying hard with them, though. But it really does come down to my own determination and willpower. I CAN do this! I've actually had a headache most of this last week & am now thinking it very likely could be due to a sugar withdrawal. If it is, then it should go away within a few days.

Okay- healthy eating... here I come!

Lisa

Kerry S's picture
Kerry S
Posts: 607
Joined: Dec 2009

Darlin,

As I type this reply I am looking at 5 deer in the back yard. This fall I am going get one of those deer in my rifle sights and blow it away. Then I am going to eat good red deer meat for the next year along with good red beef. I might not live longer, but when I do croak I will have a smile and gravy on my face.

Kerry

Anonymous user (not verified)

This comment has been removed by the Moderator

HollyID's picture
HollyID
Posts: 951
Joined: Dec 2009

My husband and I both belly laughed on this one. Kerry, we enjoy deer and elk meat. With gravy. Personally, I love your attitude.

Holly

John23's picture
John23
Posts: 2140
Joined: Jan 2007

Re:
"Those who ate the most red meat, processed meat, and cured meat "

The "processed" and "cured" meat might be the problem, but as
carnivorous animals, we need a full and complete diet, and that
includes red meat.

The real problem with cancer, isn't "how we get it", it is why our
immune system isn't doing what it should to eliminate it.

Normally, our immune system destroys dead cells as it usually does,
but a cancer cell is a cell that didn't die; instead it survived and
continues to survive by the fermentation process. And for some
reason, our immune system has failed to recognize that the cell
doesn't belong within us.

-That- is the problem, not "red meat".

Each year they add thousands of "causes" to the list of things
that may or may not cause cancer. At one time, they claimed
coffee was, then came cranberries... what's next?

A healthy immune system is the best way for us to fight cancer,
and more often than not, it can do what no chemotherapy chemical
can ever do.... keep us alive.

And a healthy diet is the best way to have a healthy immune system,
since the immune system depends on 80% of what we're digesting.

But when we go in directions that are against the basic biological
requirements of our mere existence, we can suffer more than if
we just lived how we were designed to.

Eat foods that are not contaminated with chemicals and/or irradiated.

Eat a full diet consisting of all the foodstuff that normal carnivorous
animals need to survive.

It really doesn't take much more than that to be healthy.....

However.... the reason that some of us have an immune system
that doesn't always recognize a cancer cell being different than
a normal cell, should be discovered.

We should be insisting that our donations go towards solving that,
instead of more wasteful study of chemicals and treatment that
leave us stranded and dependent, rather than healthy and self-reliant.

Eat red meat; it's good for you.

dasspears
Posts: 233
Joined: Feb 2009

So here's my story - there is no history of cancer in my family and most live into their mid- 80's and my father passed away at 86 of a stroke. He had one kidney since age 5 and ate meat and fried everything his entire life. Only issue was high blood pressure. I'm the only one with cancer and I don't like red meat and eat mostly seafood, veggies and fruit so go figure! Also the most active in my family. Personally, I link cancer to genetics but I don't preclude diet, etc. I just don't think it's the prevailing factor.

PGLGreg's picture
PGLGreg
Posts: 741
Joined: Jul 2006

Convinced of what? Convinced that eating less red meat, or more yellow vegetables, will make cancer less likely? No. What you quoted doesn't claim that.

--Greg

dianetavegia's picture
dianetavegia
Posts: 1953
Joined: Mar 2009

Djuric—a member of the U-M Comprehensive Cancer Center—is also leading a study called Healthy Eating for Colon Cancer Prevention, in which she and colleagues are examining whether a Mediterranean diet can have preventive effects in the colon in persons at increased colon cancer risk. The diet used in the newly published study also should be applicable to prevention of many cancers, such as , breast cancer, Djuric says. More information on the current study, and how to participate in it, can be found at the University of Mcihigan Engage Web site.

Mediterranean diets have been associated with health benefits such as lower risks for cardiovascular disease and cancer, Djuric notes. Recent studies also have suggested that such a diet can increase longevity, but this data is from observational studies of Europeans who followed a traditional Mediterranean dietary pattern. The new research is the first time a method has been devised to achieve the major Mediterranean nutrient intakes using American foods, and American women were able to follow this diet.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Colon cancer survivors who follow a Western diet are more likely to have a recurrence than survivors who follow a prudent diet, according to a study in the Journal of the American Medical Association. What's the difference between a Western diet and a "prudent" one, and how much impact can it have on colon cancer recurrence?

Western Diet versus Prudent Diet
According to the study, a Western diet contains a lot of meat, fat, refined grains, and sweets. A "prudent" diet, on the other hand, is centered around fruits, vegetables, poultry, and fish.

Impact of Diet on Colon Cancer Recurrence
Over a five-year period, the researchers tracked about 1,000 stage 3 colon cancer survivors who had been treated with surgery and chemotherapy. Those who followed a Western diet were more than three times as likely to have a recurrence than those who followed a prudent diet.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

The typical Western diet may be more than just hazardous to the health of patients treated for colon cancer. New research suggests it may be deadly.

Former patients in the study who ate the most red and processed meats, refined grains, fats, and sugars were about three times as likely to die or have their cancers recur as patients who ate these foods the least.

While there is no shortage of evidence linking the so-called Western diet to an increased risk for developing colon cancer, the study is among the first to examine the impact of such a diet on survival among patients treated for the disease.

The findings must be confirmed, but Dana-Farber Cancer Center oncologist Jeffrey Meyerhardt, MD, a researcher on the team, says they cannot be ignored by colon cancer patients or their physicians.

Based on these findings, Meyerhardt and colleagues identified two major dietary patterns: the “Western” diet, characterized by high intakes of red and processed meats, sweets, refined grains, and desserts, and a diet defined by the researchers as “prudent,” which was high in fruits, vegetables, poultry, and fish.

Patients were followed for roughly five years, during which time 324 experienced recurrences of their colon cancer and 223 deaths occurred among these relapsed patients. Just 28 deaths were recorded among patients with no evidence of cancer recurrence.

Colon cancer recurrences or death were nearly 3.5 times more common among patients who most closely followed a Western diet than among patients who followed it the least.

There's lots more........ just do a search.

PGLGreg's picture
PGLGreg
Posts: 741
Joined: Jul 2006

I used to read these articles, but it got boring. Mostly, they don't claim anything about causation, only that there are interesting links and associations that should be followed up. For instance, you quote: "Djuric ... and colleagues are examining whether a Mediterranean diet can have preventive effects in the colon in persons at increased colon cancer risk." So they're EXAMINING whether it CAN have preventive effects. Ahem.

And when a claim about causation is made in the press, I often can't tell whether it's the reporter's claim, a scientist's claim in conversation, or a claim made in a refereed journal of good reputation.

Once there is persuasive evidence that eating less red meat can prevent cancer recurrence, if there ever is, the standard of care will be for doctors to put us on red-meat-less diets. Doctors aren't dummies, you know. Until then, it's just pop medicine.

--Greg

kimby's picture
kimby
Posts: 804
Joined: Oct 2007

I go to U of M for my treatment. I love the facility, the docs, and the wonderful studies that they do. This is a study in process. Previous studies have been very small...too small to be a good marker. My oncs all prefer that I eat WHATEVER sounds good. Including red meat.

I'm not saying diet isn't important. I'm saying that you need to stop blaming me for my cancer or my survival rate. I eat a balanced diet including chicken, fish, seafood, nuts, and yes, pork & beef. I eat veggies, I juice and I limit white carbs as much as possible.

The most compelling research I've found involves exercise. Moderate exercise 3 -4 times a week. You know...good old walking. I wonder if those researchers took into account that people who watch their diet that closely also exercise and get more rest. Taking 'total' care of oneself...Mind, Body, and Spirit.

Just cutting red meat from your diet seems overly simple in this complex disease we call cancer. Did they take into account stage, where the mets were, how advanced mets were...how large was the study stated in this article?

Food isn't the whole picture; I'm absolutely convinced of that! I get frustrated with these posts when they become argumentative (which you have made this Diane) because information is thrown back and forth like FACT. You have posted zero facts. Just unsubstantiated information.

Please stop blaming and pointing fingers. I'm here fighting for my LIFE. Not past tense. I've been in treatment for 2.5 yrs and have nearly died at least a dozen times, several of them very recently.

Outwit. Outplay. Outlast.

Kimby

John23's picture
John23
Posts: 2140
Joined: Jan 2007

Re:
"According to the study, a Western diet contains a lot of meat, fat, refined grains, and sweets."

One really has to read the "fine print" with these "studies".

Eating a full diet of red meat (of all types), including "fat" that
is part of the meat structure, and veggies, and fruit, will do any carnivorous
animal well.

It's when we do anything in excess, where we have problems.
Or as they stated so well: "a lot of"

Eat sensibly.

dianetavegia's picture
dianetavegia
Posts: 1953
Joined: Mar 2009

and you are free to eat as you like.

John23's picture
John23
Posts: 2140
Joined: Jan 2007

"I can only take care of myself"

Well.... I gotta' admit, you look a helluvalot better than me!
</wolf-whistle>

John

dianetavegia's picture
dianetavegia
Posts: 1953
Joined: Mar 2009

I'll be 60 this year. You should see my 63 year old hubby (of 40 years this Oct.) or my mother and father (78 and 82).

coloCan
Posts: 1956
Joined: Oct 2009

I recall reading (somewhere) that its chemical changes done to red meat,like hamburger and steak-my favorites once-during its cooking that can contribute to colorectal cancer....In any event, currently consuming alot more fruit and vegetables and less meat as a result of how my appetite came back to me...(Don't bite if I'm wrong)....Steve

Jaylo969
Posts: 827
Joined: Jan 2010

Never could stand the stuff. I still got colon cancer. I eat better/healthier than anyone in my family.I still got colon cancer.I give up.

Tonight I went to a wedding and washed my Xeloda down with a glass of champagne. Cheers!

Baaad Pat! ;)

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
Posts: 4912
Joined: May 2005

As is true in so many aspects of life, there's more than one way to skin a cat, or to get cancer, or to reach __________.

Cheers, bottoms up!
-p

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
Posts: 4912
Joined: May 2005

I realize what I'm saying may be VERY obvious to many of you, but there are always exceptions so I feel it's worth posting.

I think the thing with cancer and why it's such a tough nut to crack is that it's not caused by just one thing. There are people who smoke like chimneys and never get lung cancer, there are people who never smoke (not live with smokers) and get lung cancer. There are people who treat their bodies like temples and still get cancer then there are those who treat it like a garbage dump and live to be 100.

Numerous factors determine who winds up getting what. Of course, it's always a good idea to limit foods or environments that can be harmful, it's (mostly) common sense. A diet of all red meat is probably not the best thing for you but to cut it out of your diet is certainly no guarantee of being cancer-free. Some vegetarians do get colon cancer, some others are cavemen carnivores and don't. Personally, I would not live underneath high voltage electrical wires and I always use a headset when on my cellphone (which I limit anyway).

If cancer were only like a broken bone then it would be easier to fix...but it's not. That's why this subject, along with many others, will always have debate as to what causes it and how to prevent it.

On a side(dish) note I love deer too Kerry, especially as a ragout stew.
(smack!)

-p

ron50's picture
ron50
Posts: 1729
Joined: Nov 2001

When I was a little kid I was dx with a lung complaint called bronchiectasis. It was dx by a bubbling sound in my lungs which was supposed to be a build up of fluid in my lower lungs. In actual fact it wasn't and was a common old hiatus hernia which was allowing my stomache to intrude into my diaphram and rest on the lower lobes of my lungs. The treatment was two drops of creosote in a glass of milk every night for around seven or eight years. Creosote is now banned because of its carcinogenic nature. I also smoked for a while,ate quite a few large animals over the years plus a lot of fish,was never really that keen on the green stuff much preferred fruit(fresh or fermented). Loved cured foods ,adicted to salt. All in all it was amazing that I survived to 48 to develop cancer.
Now I don't smoke don't drink eat only low Gi food have been celibite for ten years have survived cancer for twelve years and am completely miserable.
My epitaph may well read on his last night he was seen eating a largr rare steak with fries washed down with gallons of red wine follwed by several liquers and a large cuban cigar. He was last seen alive entering a house of ill repute. Life is about the journey not the destination. Ron.

SueRelays
Posts: 489
Joined: Dec 2009

WOW....such varying ideas. I always said ( since I've been diagnosed with caner 3 times)...if they told me it was from eating french fries, I would quit eating french fries!!!
Simple as that.....but to so many's point, there is no clear answer to what causes cancer, or what keeps it from coming back. If there was....well we all know the answer to that.
I had a non smokers lung cancer, caused from who knows what. As far as I know I wasn't around any chemicals, etc. After the anal cancer, and recently the mets to the liver, I have decided to give up sugar, white flour, and processed foods. I will eat red meat as long as it is farm fed. In my opinion, cancer has become more rampant, and what has changed? The way food is processed. So more fruits and veggies, and only farm fed chickens, beef, etc. That is just my choice. My friend, who had lung cancer who did smoke.....eats anything and everthing he wants and has a huge smile on his face 24/7.

msccolon's picture
msccolon
Posts: 1956
Joined: Oct 2004

You go! My epitaph may read the same, minus the house of ill repute :).
mary

robinvan's picture
robinvan
Posts: 1014
Joined: May 2007

Another way to look at it...

"If you give up on sex, smoking, drinking, and eating red meat you won't necessarily LIVE longer... it will just SEEM longer!"

LOL... Rob; in Vancouver

dasspears
Posts: 233
Joined: Feb 2009

the things out of our control. Like pollution, chemicals ingested daily, computers, cell phones, etc., etc., etc. What isn't a contributor to cancer? We can't isolate ourselves - we don't know the exact causes, we just do the best that we can. Do what is best for you. You are right on target, Phil.

HollyID's picture
HollyID
Posts: 951
Joined: Dec 2009

is beneficial to a body, I have conflicts with thinking there was nothing I could do because my onc thinks mine was genetic/hereditary. I admit that before my diagnosis, we were big red meat eaters. I still don't mind wrapping my lips around a good sirloin, venison stew or elk tri-tips. With Gravy.

I grew up on a cattle ranch. My dad grew angus and hereford cattle for our food. Yes, it was good and we knew exactly what was put in them. No hormones. Just grain and hay fed beef. Does that make a difference? It might. I have no idea. We grew our own garden. It was huge. It had to feed 11 people. We had garden grown veggies of every variety. No herbicides. Just good old food. Why didn't this help me? I have no idea... I know it didn't help my dad.

Do you think our lifestyles have anything to do with it? I worked like a dog when I was young. We had to have cattle fed before the bus came at 7am. We had to feed them again when we got home. We fed pigs, sheep, chickens and horses. Now, I'm a nurse. I work 2 days a week and I walk a lot, but nothing that gets my cardio going. Nothing like when I was young. When I married Dave 25 years ago, we moved to another ranch. We worked from sun up to sun down. A lot of cardio and well as very aerobic. We ate more fish and chicken than we had before. We got a beef a year as part of our salary. We used it -- believe me... I do believe though that processed foods might be a nasty contributing factor. I don't do processed foods -- ever since my husband told me how hot dogs were made. Grosses me out.

I've changed a bit on how we eat today. My onc still believes that there was nothing I could have done to prevent this. Diet or exercise wouldn't have prevented this. It was in my genes.

Vegetarians get CC. Nobody is immune from this cancer. I believe it's the luck of a draw. Genetic or bad luck... we're all vulnerable.

Like Kerry, I will die with gravy and a smile on my face. I'm not going to live my life in fear or recurrence. I could eat the best Mediterranean diet and still have recurrence. What would that have gotten me? Probably an "Oh rats... I ate well post chemo and it still came back". I've decided to live for quality, not quantity. Genetics and all.

KATE58's picture
KATE58
Posts: 300
Joined: Nov 2009

I have eaten a mainly vegetarian diet for the last 30 years
,with an occassional NY strip (medium rare ) or burger,
mainly because I just love fruits and vegetables,meat not so much
and a steak tastes good to me only when I have not had one in a couple months.
but I still have IV stage colon cancer.

Patteee's picture
Patteee
Posts: 950
Joined: Jul 2009

I lived all over the world, the last place was NE China, little city (600,000) called Jinzhou. I have lived in the states since 2001...and sometimes I think or wonder what I ate or did overseas that caused my cancer. Musta been all those bowls of rice, or maybe I didn't scrub the fruits and veggies enough before eating (you really don't want to know what they use to fertilize the soil they grow food in do you?)- I am not a red meat eater, so guessing it wasn't that. I easily biked/walked/did stairs like all the time. Ya know, I am guessing my cigarette smoking and genetics played the biggest role. Having known then what I know now? I definitely would never have started smoking and maybe a few less stateside Blizzards and pieces of apple pie- but I never would have given up the vast experiences that brought me to my knees in prayerful thanks and joy. And I refuse to live the rest of my life scared about whatever I am doing could lead to something---

dianetavegia's picture
dianetavegia
Posts: 1953
Joined: Mar 2009

I'll do anything I can to try and stay well. :-)

I just saw a list of links that have info about citrus rinds (can't remember the 'formal' name of the supplement) and potential to stop colon cancer mets and am going to pick some up and add them to my ABCDEF list of daily supplements and diet choices. It can't hurt.

What caused my cancer? I have no idea. I'd guess that almost 60 years of constipation didn't help. Southern foods filled with rancid fat for the first 19 years of my life didn't help. Hormones in meats didn't help. Refusing to have a colonoscopy at age 50 because I was too much of a 'lady'.....

I want to stay healthy. I want YOU to be healthy. If I see some info that I think will keep me healthy or help YOU be healthy, I'm going to share it. If it angers you, I'm sorry. If it helps me and YOU stay well or get well, GREAT. :-)

A= aspirin B= better diet choices C= calcium supplements D= Vit. D3 E= exercise F= fruit rinds with loads of laughter, prayer, avoidance of stress and lots of hugs.

Quality of life? MY quality of life does not depend on red meat (or any food). I eat very tasty meals. The Mediterranean Diet has you substitute whole grain pasta and brown rice for white. No processed foods. It allows small amounts of red meat each month but my oncologist said NO red meat EVER. For lunch yesterday I had steamed shrimp with red, green, yellow peppers and tomatoes over a bed of whole grain pasta and a slice of whole wheat bread with melted parmesan cheese and garlic. Breakfast was a spinach, mushroom and cheddar omlet. I'm making chili for supper. I use ground turkey.

And as for those of you who eat deer meat....
POOR BAMBI! Run Bambi, RUN!

:-D

HollyID's picture
HollyID
Posts: 951
Joined: Dec 2009

I agree that we'll all do what we think is right. We've substituted brown rice for white for years. It's actually tastier with a nuttier taste. Love it! You brought up the constipation thing and I do think that has something to do with things. I told my onc I swore I had the slowest peristalsis anyone has ever had. His eyebrows went up and said, "Tell me more". It got me to thinking that the longer things stay in the colon, the more time it has to go haywire. Maybe I just have bad luck.

I don't do aspirin. Maybe when I'm done with FOLFOX. :) I do have better diet choices, I take my vitamin D3, my culturelle for a probiotic and exercise when I can. I think I also eat very tasty meals... Seafood being my favorite.

I still will imbibe in red meat once in a while. But, there is still that genetic thing hanging over my head. We'll all do what we want in the end.

kimby's picture
kimby
Posts: 804
Joined: Oct 2007

I eat a 'balanced diet' that includes red meat, seafood, fish, nuts, beans and cheeses. I eat lots of veggies (I crave them so when my appetite is good I can do this), fruit and limited grains. I've used whole wheat pasta and breads for years but I still limit them.

I've always been very active and athletic until all this started. I meditate, spend time in prayer, have a wonderful social life, I do good deeds as quietly as possible.

I still got cc at 43 with no symptoms, no history of bowel issues (not even constipation) and no warning. Bam! Right in the Kisser! I had uterine cancer at age 39. Lucky me.

Yes, I drink in moderation (wine with dinner occasionally, social Grey Goose or Patron maybe once a month - sometimes twice). I won't give that up because it is very social for me. Eating is social, even biblically speaking. I've never smoked. I don't deserve this anymore than anyone else.

It doesn't anger me that this was posted. I LOVE Diane, BTW and I hope she already knows that. We just disagree on one issue - balance. Until there is a reasonable study to show SOMETHING, I'm not cutting anything out of my life. All of my onc team at U of Mich agrees with this philosophy despite the studies currently being done. We have discussed it at length.

I take 87 pills a day currently (I'm not on anti-nausea or anti-diarrhea stuff anymore, so my numbers are down) including my vitamin/herbal supplements (all approved by my onc and endo). My father had severe osteoporosis at a very young age and I'm osteopenic now. I'm currently malabsorbing most of what I ingest. My docs are saying, "Eat ANYTHING that sounds good to you and eat as much as you can". Music to my ears! LOL

Because I've had so many tough and unusual treatments, I've been pretty ill for most of my 'ride'. I've had meals brought in for 2 years, nearly constantly. I won't dictate what anyone brings. They try to bring healthy meals but it isn't always what I would call stellar. Last night we had the most delicious Shepard’s pie. She made it with Italian sausage. Lots of veggies, lots of mashed white potatoes...yummy! It would not meet the approval on many on this list. That's ok with me. People are helping my family in any way they can. We appreciate it and are just happy to be able to eat real food. We would have to resort to prepackaged processed foods, cold cut sandwiches or pizza without their help. I figure real food, even shepard's pie made with sausage, is a better bet.

If you are able to shop and cook for your family, count yourself fortunate. Be grateful that you can have this debate - that it's even an option for you. It could be much worse.

And for you hunters: send me some venison, will ya! Hook a girl up here! LOL

Outwit. Outplay. Outlast.

Kimby

msccolon's picture
msccolon
Posts: 1956
Joined: Oct 2004

Me LOVES some venison! :) We have many hunters around here, and even though I've mentioned that I would love some, none makes it to my freezer! :)
mary

Nana b's picture
Nana b
Posts: 3045
Joined: May 2009

I don't live to eat, I eat to live!

Off to the hospital!

Shayenne's picture
Shayenne
Posts: 2370
Joined: Jan 2009

My onc told me not to cut out too much in my diet or I'd be too weak to do chemo, she wants weight on me to be strong, and if I were to go on any kind of diet, she'd be worried about me losing weight. I don't eat steak, though I may have a good whopper once in awhile. I love seafood, veggies, fruits, and don't overeat on cookies, cakes and all that. I do like ice cream, but wont eat it all the time. I think I ate like a normal human being, and no matter what you do, whether you eat meat or not, you can get cancer anyway, there are alot more things in the air, in the environment, being around restaurants and bars where there are smokers all these years, even if you don't smoke, genes, just way too many factors in how a person can get cancer. Even the healthiest of people drop dead of heart attacks all of a sudden, and healthy people do get cancer, to me, you're darned if you do, darned if you don't. Just live happy, and with a smile on your face, loving your neighbors and friends, no judging people, just be you.

Hugsss!
~Donna

P.S. Kerry, you nearly made me pee my pants with your post, thanks for that! LOL!

coloCan
Posts: 1956
Joined: Oct 2009

Suggest Potential Mechanisms" published on medicalnewstoday.com.......steve

Subscribe to Comments for "Red Meat! In the news again..... Are YOU still not convinced?"