TESTOSTERONE SUPPLEMENTATION AFTER RADIATION AND FIRMAGON

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Comments

  • artie
    artie Member Posts: 61 Member
    edited February 2021 #22
    Old Salt said:

    You made a decision

    Good for you!

    no choice.based on the advice

    no choice.based on the advice of Sylvester.

     

  • artie
    artie Member Posts: 61 Member

    Diet and exercise wont cure

    Diet and exercise wont cure theT shortfall but will help close the gap in terms of energy levels

    How will diet and eercise

    How will diet and eercise help?

  • Old Salt
    Old Salt Member Posts: 1,285 Member
    edited February 2021 #24
    artie said:

    How will diet and eercise

    How will diet and eercise help?

    Hormone therapy

    Hormone therapy has many side effects. Among others, there's an effect on bones, leading potentially to osteoporosis. Exercise (walking etc) will help to counteract that.

    Also, one tends to gain weight; exercise and a proper diet will help to minimize that. 

    Exercise, as a distraction, is also good for the mind.

  • GeorgeG
    GeorgeG Member Posts: 152
    edited March 2021 #25
    Its all tradeoffs

    Once we are in the club our decisions exist within certain boxes, we can never be exactly as we were. We can live satisfying and good lives but with new limits and considerations. Every treatment that we decide to take has a risk profile, something is given up for the perceived benefit of the treatment, it is not free. The choice is not perfect. You are the only one that knows what is most important to you. Once you are presented with the options only you and your family will know what decision is the best fit. I hear, "that cancer must come out I can't live with any cancer inside me"! Others prefer watchful waiting, leave it alone if a low level threat. Same cancer, 2 different families.

    ADT by its design pushes the cancer back by depriving the growth mechanism of testosterone. For most men this works for a period of time and then it slowly stops working so complete blockaid is added for the residual androgens elsewhere and then on to other things. Your doctor may know the answer to this because I don't - is there any data on cancer that is completely undetctable but now back in an environment flooded with testosterone, its main fuel. On paper, there is certainly a risk of starting everything back up. only you know what the biggest motivator is for you - getting back to baseline while risking recurrance or optimizing the possibility of remission and putting up with the side effects. Play both movies forward to the conclusion in a thought experiment and see which one feels right to you.

    If it were me and I was in remission with the possibility of decades ahead I don't think I would risk it. If I was closer to the end I might want one last shot at my old self. It also depends on your surroundings - job, wife, kids. I just lost my wife, kids all moved away. My calculation might be very different than yours.

     

    Half the battle is getting our heads right and making adjustments after acceptance. Don't give up fighting but don't let the bandit as its called here take evrything from you.

     

    George

     

  • artie
    artie Member Posts: 61 Member
    edited April 2021 #26
    tetosterone

    i HAVE STUDDIED THE SUBJECT FOR OVER 2 YEARS NOW  AND HAVE COME TO MY CONCLSION THAT IT IS TOO RISKY TO TRY TRT AFTER BEING TREATED SUCCESSFULLY FOR PROSTATE CANCER.THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW IF TRT WILL WORK AND THERE ARE  DRS THAT BELIEVE IT WILL CAUSE THE CANCER TO RETURN.IT MAKES NO SENSE THAT THE TREATMENT TO GET RID OF THE CANCER WAS TO LOWER THE TESTOSTERONE THEN WHY WOULD YOU TAKE TRT AFTER YOU ARE IN REMISSION.IN FACT PATIENTS WHOSE CANCER HAS RETURNED ARE GIVEN DRUGS TO LOWER THEIR TESTOSTERONE AND THIS MAY BE THE ONLY TREATMENT THEY RECEIVE.

  • GeorgeG
    GeorgeG Member Posts: 152
    Artie

    Artie

     

    Exactly how I see it.

     

    George

     

  • artie
    artie Member Posts: 61 Member
    low testosterone

    gaining weight ,low energy cancer gone but suffer from sideeffects of low testoterone.Need help?Any ideas ?

  • VascodaGama
    VascodaGama Member Posts: 3,638 Member
    edited May 2021 #29
    Look for the reasons causing the lack of testosterone

    Hi,

    I wonder if TRT would be that bad in your case. I think that you could try it under periodical vigilance, because of the long period in remission. However, you could also try to find the reason behind your lack of testosterone and start by treating it (if any).

    As we age, our body changes the way it uses hormones.  That Michelin tire created arround our waist is made up of estrogens that, by itself, have been produced from testosterone, reducing the stuff. . The most evidence of its existence is when we lose our six packs and see it being replaced by a menopause belly. The estrogens storage depot is the tummy.

    You can try increasing testosterone with a diet proper to counter the production of estrogens, accompanied with a series of physical exercises. Vitamin B5, B6 and B12 seem to be influential in the production of testosterone. You may aquire them naturally by changing your diet. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/323224

    https://universityhealthnews.com/daily/aging-independence/8-surprising-high-estrogen-symptoms-in-men/

    https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/mens-health/in-depth/male-menopause/art-20048056

    Hope this helps in your regaining of quality of life.

    Best

    VG

     

     

  • jeremyc
    jeremyc Member Posts: 1
    edited September 2021 #30
    testosterone decrease after Cyberknife 450 down to 111 & 2Tfree

    I am strugging with the effects of now very low T which seems to have gradually declined over the past 6 years from 450 to now 111 after Cyberknife for Prostate Cancer, Gleason 3+3; original PSA of 3.5 at age 55.  Having low energy, joint pain, brain fog, can't lose weight etc. at age 61.

    I have read most all the literature, seems like bascially a debated topic; I also have early stage coronary artery disease and high calcium deposits in Right Coronary but relatively clear result from Angiogram a couple years ago, 15% decrease in pressure; likely had a mild silent heart attack more than 2 years ago; no current symptoms; high blood pressure but normal with meds; had a TIA 20 years ago from lack of treatment of my high blood pressure.

    I can live with no libido, what the hell is a 61 year old going to do with libido anyway, with a post menopausal wife and no interest.

    It would be nice to get back some strength, energy and clarity of my brain and short term memory.

    Has anyone here had this significant of drop in T after Cyberknife?   If so have you gon on T therapy?  Injections or patch?  Has athat resulting in revival of prostate cancer?  My PSA is finally below 0.1 for the last year but took 5 years to get there.

    Or, am I doomed to living the life of a 95 year old at age 61 (my T is lower than median for age 95).  Now impacting Thyroid/Ptituitary.  . they are all tied together, low T4.

    I'm relatively luck compared to many who have or have had cancer, so perhaps I should just count my blessings and switch from tennis to pickleball and from sailing to riding an ebike?  In reading my own post I want to vomit, sound like a whiney @%$$%@$.

    Thanks

  • VascodaGama
    VascodaGama Member Posts: 3,638 Member
    edited September 2021 #31
    Could it be a disorder of the endocrine system?

     

    Jeremy,

    Firstly I want to congratulate you for the remission status your cyberknife treatment managed to accomplish. The long period it took to lower the PSA is typical in PCa radiation therapies. One could also think that the low testosterone helped in lowering the PSA but I believe that it’s all due to the CK's good work. I don’t think that CK is associated with the low testosterone (T) or low thyroxine (T4).

    I wonder if you have an endocrine system disorder. The testosterone produced by the testis and the T4 produced by the thyroid are regulated by the good function of the pituitary in delivering the LH (FSH) and TSH to these organs respectively. To have both decreasing makes me think that the pituitary is the problem. Can you tell us if CK was combined with hormonal treatment (ADT)?

    The fact is that ADT causes havoc at the hypothalamus/pituitary and some guys do not recover from the it's side-effects which are related to a pituitary disorder. That could also be behind your experiencing brain fog. Even if you had no ADT, I would recommend you to check the levels of LH and TSH, including the thyroid’s triiodothyronine (T3) which controls the rate at which the body uses energy. All the symptoms you describe above seems to interweave the same problem. 

    Testosterone is produced from cholesterol and the estrogens (behind fatty belly) are produced from testosterone decreasing the amount in circulation. You need to include these proteins in your next blood test. Another aspect in your health history as described in your post, is the calcium deposits and high BP that could deteriorate the kidneys function. Get it checked too.

    You may be interested in reading our comments in this link;

    https://csn.cancer.org/node/323832

    Welcome to the board.

    Best wishes,

    VGama 

     

  • artie
    artie Member Posts: 61 Member
    Old Salt said:

    Artie

    A  (very) relevant review was cited on another prostate cancer site:

    Testosterone Therapy After Prostate Cancer Treatment: A Review of Literature - ScienceDirect

    There is no evidence that u

    There is no evidence that u should or not take TRT .

  • artie
    artie Member Posts: 61 Member
    edited September 2021 #33
    jeremyc said:

    testosterone decrease after Cyberknife 450 down to 111 & 2Tfree

    I am strugging with the effects of now very low T which seems to have gradually declined over the past 6 years from 450 to now 111 after Cyberknife for Prostate Cancer, Gleason 3+3; original PSA of 3.5 at age 55.  Having low energy, joint pain, brain fog, can't lose weight etc. at age 61.

    I have read most all the literature, seems like bascially a debated topic; I also have early stage coronary artery disease and high calcium deposits in Right Coronary but relatively clear result from Angiogram a couple years ago, 15% decrease in pressure; likely had a mild silent heart attack more than 2 years ago; no current symptoms; high blood pressure but normal with meds; had a TIA 20 years ago from lack of treatment of my high blood pressure.

    I can live with no libido, what the hell is a 61 year old going to do with libido anyway, with a post menopausal wife and no interest.

    It would be nice to get back some strength, energy and clarity of my brain and short term memory.

    Has anyone here had this significant of drop in T after Cyberknife?   If so have you gon on T therapy?  Injections or patch?  Has athat resulting in revival of prostate cancer?  My PSA is finally below 0.1 for the last year but took 5 years to get there.

    Or, am I doomed to living the life of a 95 year old at age 61 (my T is lower than median for age 95).  Now impacting Thyroid/Ptituitary.  . they are all tied together, low T4.

    I'm relatively luck compared to many who have or have had cancer, so perhaps I should just count my blessings and switch from tennis to pickleball and from sailing to riding an ebike?  In reading my own post I want to vomit, sound like a whiney @%$$%@$.

    Thanks

    I WAS ALSO TREATED WITH 5

    I WAS ALSO TREATED WITH 5 RADIATION TREATMENTS.OVER 6 YEARS AGO.MY TEST IS ONLT 28 AFTER TAKING DEGARALIX.OVER 6 YEARS AGO EXPLORED TRT BUT MOST DRS SAY NO.IAM 80 NOW BUT IN GOOD HEALTH.HAVEE BELLY JOIT PAIN AND ULNAR IMPACTION SYNDROM.DOES NOT APPEAR TP B RELATED.TRY TO EXERCISE  BUT MUSCLE MASS IS BEING TAKEN OVER BY FAT CELLS.IF U GET MORE INFO ON TRT PLEASE SEND IT TO ME ON THIS SITE.

     

  • artie
    artie Member Posts: 61 Member
    edited September 2021 #34

    Could it be a disorder of the endocrine system?

     

    Jeremy,

    Firstly I want to congratulate you for the remission status your cyberknife treatment managed to accomplish. The long period it took to lower the PSA is typical in PCa radiation therapies. One could also think that the low testosterone helped in lowering the PSA but I believe that it’s all due to the CK's good work. I don’t think that CK is associated with the low testosterone (T) or low thyroxine (T4).

    I wonder if you have an endocrine system disorder. The testosterone produced by the testis and the T4 produced by the thyroid are regulated by the good function of the pituitary in delivering the LH (FSH) and TSH to these organs respectively. To have both decreasing makes me think that the pituitary is the problem. Can you tell us if CK was combined with hormonal treatment (ADT)?

    The fact is that ADT causes havoc at the hypothalamus/pituitary and some guys do not recover from the it's side-effects which are related to a pituitary disorder. That could also be behind your experiencing brain fog. Even if you had no ADT, I would recommend you to check the levels of LH and TSH, including the thyroid’s triiodothyronine (T3) which controls the rate at which the body uses energy. All the symptoms you describe above seems to interweave the same problem. 

    Testosterone is produced from cholesterol and the estrogens (behind fatty belly) are produced from testosterone decreasing the amount in circulation. You need to include these proteins in your next blood test. Another aspect in your health history as described in your post, is the calcium deposits and high BP that could deteriorate the kidneys function. Get it checked too.

    You may be interested in reading our comments in this link;

    https://csn.cancer.org/node/323832

    Welcome to the board.

    Best wishes,

    VGama 

     

    IF YOU TAKIE A STATIN COULD

    IF YOU TAKIE A STATIN COULD THAT BE CAUSING YOUR LOW T?

     

  • VascodaGama
    VascodaGama Member Posts: 3,638 Member
    edited September 2021 #35
    Statins lowers the testosterone and may cause hypogonadism

    Artie,

    I am not a doctor to provide you sound advice in regards to your issue with low testosterone. I believe that low T is caused by several factors that go from the age of the individual,  diets, life style, other health issues and particularly the medication he/she is taking. You need to do your own researches  and follow your instincts. In my case I am taking Zocor (simvastatin 20 mg) daily but in intermittent periods of 3-months on/off.

    20mg is the lowest dose available and, together with my life style, diet and other medications, it managed to be enough to control and keep the cholesterol close to 165 mg/dL.

    In my researches I found that statins can be good but also bad. Though the effects of statins differ among them, one should verify each characteristics and side-effects in detail so that we choose the best to our cases, changing medication if required. Simvastatin lowers both, the cholesterol and the testosterone. It increases creatinine and causes muscle cramps. For certain extent it also leads to low libido and other typical effects of hypogonadism like fatigue. At one time I thought in changing it to Crestor (very expensive rosuvastatin recommended by Dr. Myers) as it helps in avoiding some of the typical statin effects but after one box of pills I returned to simvastatin. 

    I recall back in 2003 (third year post RP) when the GP recommended me Adalat 30 medication for blood pressure. I was taking at the time daily 100mg aspirin together with a supplement of selenium. In 2009 another GP recommended me adding a statin pill which was thought to fight PCa. This was at the third year after RT when the PSA started to increase indicating treatment failure. 

    I knew that I was going to start ADT so it took me to deeply research on drugs effects and interactions. After discussing with the uro-oncologist treating my PCa he decided to have ADT without statins. I started simvastatin much later by the end of 2013 when the cholesterol  increased to 240ng/dL. Meanwhile, kidney function deteriorated reaching the level of stage 3. The  nephrologist's opinion was that ADT and BP were to blame. Though Adalat kept BP within the normal parameters, he changed this medication with the combi Valsartan 80mg + Hydrochlorothiazide 12.5mg. He wasn’t worried with the simvastatin effects on the creatinine levels.

    My opinion is that the statin is decreasing my testosterone (now at 342 ng/dL) which may have some influence on the PSA level too. I would recommend you to check any influence caused by the statin you are taking, if any. You may try changing it to verify if the situation improves. 

    Best,

    VGama 

     

  • Georges Calvez
    Georges Calvez Member Posts: 547 Member
    edited September 2021 #36
    Avorstatin

    Hi there,

    I have been taking self prescribed avorstatin 20mg for a few years. My cholesterol was a bit above the normal range for the adult population, but in the normal range for men of my age.
    But I thought it might help keep the PCa under control so I charmed Dr Pooh and walked out with a prescription.
    My testosterone is now in the midrange at 370 ng/dL and I have some libido, I am not full of teen spirit but hey ho I am heading for 59! My cholesterol level is in the midrange for male adults as well.
    Statins may depress testosterone levels, but they are not going to send you down to castrate levels, they are not GnRH agonists/antagonists.

    Best wishes,

    Georges

  • artie
    artie Member Posts: 61 Member

    Avorstatin

    Hi there,

    I have been taking self prescribed avorstatin 20mg for a few years. My cholesterol was a bit above the normal range for the adult population, but in the normal range for men of my age.
    But I thought it might help keep the PCa under control so I charmed Dr Pooh and walked out with a prescription.
    My testosterone is now in the midrange at 370 ng/dL and I have some libido, I am not full of teen spirit but hey ho I am heading for 59! My cholesterol level is in the midrange for male adults as well.
    Statins may depress testosterone levels, but they are not going to send you down to castrate levels, they are not GnRH agonists/antagonists.

    Best wishes,

    Georges

    U walked out with a

    U walked out with a prescription for what?For testosterone supplementation?Its the androgen degaralix that knocked the testoterone level down to castration level and I can't increase the levels.Aso there is concern that trt could cause the cancer to return.Your suggestions.

  • Georges Calvez
    Georges Calvez Member Posts: 547 Member
    Statins
    Hi there,

    I am sorry that I did not make my meaning totally clear to you.
    I have been taking avorstatin 20mg for around two years and I have a testosterone level that is in the midrange, two years after eighteen months of firmagon that is not bad.
    There is a paper here that suggest that statins may depress testosterone levels but the effect is not that marked.
    https://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/32/4/541
    The process by which the testes produce testosterone is somewhat complicated, and shutting it down with GnRH agonists / antagonists, can result in what is effectively permanent castration.
    This is more marked in older men or men that take a GnRH agonist / antagonist for eighteen months or more.

    Best wishes,

    Georges
  • artie
    artie Member Posts: 61 Member