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Anyone here pursuing natural treatment/containment options?

Mick01
Posts: 10
Joined: Feb 2018

 

New here...just bounced in off of some Google searches. I spent some time reading through the more current threads, and noticed that most people here were talking either about which AMA approved medical treatment to do...or their post AMA approved treatment experiences.

What I didn't see was anyone discussing more natural options for treating and/or containing their PCa.
I don't mean the one-off quirky stuff...like cannabis oil or similar...I mean actual life style changes and the use of very focused and deliberate supplement therapy to slow and possibly reverse their PCa diagnosis, mainly for those people who have low/intermediate, slow moving PCa that is still contained within the prostate, and who have time to explore options without fear.

I've read of people with very late stages of PCa and metastasis trying some natural approach, but I think in those cases it is more of last-ditch effort....but for the earlier stages of non-aggressive PCa, I find it somewhat surprising that so many men here are opting to "get it out now" or "kill it now" using AMA treatments that have a variety of known permanent side-effects and also some greater risks....especially when the stats show that those in the low/intermediate groups potentially have about the same survival odds as those who opt for the AMA treatments.

Anyway...just wondering if anyone else here is looking for alternatives besides the AMA approved and insisted upon treatment paths? Smile

 

(Oh...does this BBS have a spellchecker?)

 

hopeful and opt...
Posts: 2226
Joined: Apr 2009

Hi Mick,

to my regret and embarassment on many occassions, no spell checker at this site.

I am in an active surveillance protocol, that is, I am simply being monitored without any active treatment. I have been doing this for nine years. This is a medically recommended protocol, and is preferable to any active treatment such as surgery, radiation, HIFU, cyrotherapy, all of which can have life altering side effects.

Heart healthy is considered prostate cancer friendly; in fact heart disease is considered epidemic, and even we who have been diagnosed are more likely to die of heart disease than prostate cancer.

I personally eat a veggie based diet, with some fish. I do not eat dairy or meat. Other men follow a less stringent mediterranean diet. 

UCSF published a nutrition diet plan for proatate cancer which you may reference. This along with daily exercise to include resistance tranning is helpful.

https://www.google.com/search?authuser=0&source=hp&ei=x-R_Wr-WC4iqjwP99buIDA&q=ucsf+nutrition+prostate+cancer&oq=ucsf+diet+for+prostate+&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i22i30k1.2295.16761.0.19600.27.25.1.0.0.0.190.2441.4j18.23.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..3.24.2567.6..0j35i39k1j0i131k1j0i67k1j0i20i264k1j0i131i20i264k1j0i46i67k1j46i67k1j0i20i263k1j0i10k1j33i22i29i30k1j33i160k1.124.zLlICOqD7bM

 

You have to be careful as far as supplements go, since large doses of some of them have negative consequences such as vitamin E and selenium and cause, not abate prostate cancer.

Questons? 

Individual concerns?

Mick01
Posts: 10
Joined: Feb 2018

 

Yes...proper nutrition and exercise...and also a variety of known cancer killing supplements.
AFA the vitamin E and Selenium...there's more to that than just saying they can cause prostate cancer. There is more than one type of vitamin E. The gamma-E is actually a potent prostate cancer fighter, but it's best to combine the E types rather than just take the alpha, which is what was used in the studio that claims it caused cancer.
The Selenium and E... they need to be taken with other vitamins, and then the combination is positive. No one should just be overdosing on one type of E... or any vitamin, by itself.

There are also a number of other supplements that fight prostate cancer...a number of Asian mushroom extracts and AHCC, modified citrus pectin...and quite a few other herbs and supplements. A balanced vitamin intake is just part of it. Likewise, increasing your pH to a more alkaline state works against cancer cell growth.

 

This is just a basic overview...but there is a rather lengthy list of natural ways to fight prostate cancer (and cancer in general) that can increase a positive outcome much more than just the basic nutrition/diet adjustment...though certainly there are also quite a few foods that are known for their cancer fighting properties...things like broccoli, apples, berries...etc.

 

Would like to hear of any other people here who are opting to fight it naturally. The option of AMA approved treatment is always there, but if the diagnosis isn't extream, it might be worthwile to consider the natural options...becuase once any of the medical treatments paths are taken, you can't undo them and go back in time to try a natural approach.

Oh...can you say what was your initial diagnosis when you decided to actively monitor rather than treat?
What type of proecess have you used over the 9 years to monitor rather than treat...PSA...MRI...biopsies.....all lf the above...?

VascodaGama's picture
VascodaGama
Posts: 3046
Joined: Nov 2010

Mick,

We have seen reports in this board from guys using products away from AMA and have discussed about natural options that may influence PCa behavior. Unfortunately none have ever reported cure or better improvements than the traditional treatments. The none AMA products on sale that have shown so far some control on PCa are in fact mixtures containing substances of hormonal drugs that make part of the AMA. You do understand that not many would believe in products that have not been subjected to clinical trials (as the example you comment above about vE) or have some sort of proved means of doing well.

I wonder about your case. Can you provide us your story? Have you been diagnosed with prostate cancer?

5-ARI drugs like Avodart (dutasteride) and Proscar (finasteride) have been used to controlling low grade types of PCa and found to be effective. However, FDA required the manufacturers to sell the drugs with warning labeling informing users that this class of drugs was dangerous. They commented that some low grades cases turned high graded cases after long term of using 5-Alfa Reductase Inhibitors. My opinion is contrary to theirs. You can read some comments in these back links;

https://csn.cancer.org/node/234785

https://csn.cancer.org/node/241173

For comments on antifungal foods and yeast free diets you can follow this thread; 

https://csn.cancer.org/node/209972

Some guys report drinking their urine. Is it real good?

https://csn.cancer.org/node/294949

Many other survivors have posted threads about natural products like the Artemisinin (I believe to be good) that have shown benefits but that have no permanent results. You may include in your investigations this plant. Can you substantiate your discoveries?

Welcome to the board.

Best,

VG

Mick01
Posts: 10
Joined: Feb 2018

No...I am not talking about using any pharmacuticals and hormonal drugs to control PCa....I was specifically refering to the use of "natural" supplements and life style changes. :)

hopeful and opt...
Posts: 2226
Joined: Apr 2009

click my name to the left; you will see what my initial diagnosis was; what diagnostics tests have been, and the results of these tests ....OK, your turn, what is going on with you?

Mick01
Posts: 10
Joined: Feb 2018

I looked at your diagnosis and testing details....and WOW...unless I lost count, you've had about 8 biopsy procedures over the last 9 years! That’s a lot, and to be honest, something I am looking to avoid…but it seems that most urologists only know to keep doing repeat biopsies in order to keep diagnosing and re-diagnosing the PCa.
One has to wonder how much all those needle biopsies are damaging the prostate to where it might make more sense to just have the surgery and remove it….?

OK…you asked for it…so here’s my story… in great detail and length. :)

 

I’ll be turning 64 later this month. I’m in an very good health otherwise, and have never felt any prostate symptoms and still do not to this day. No urination issues, or any other signs that my prostate was/is bothering me.

This all started with the PSA scores…beginning to gently rise over the last few years. My GP’s practice sets 2.0 as their norm…when in reality, that’s a little on the low side when you get older, and other practices use 4.0 as the top of the “normal” scale when you are hitting around 60….but PSA isn’t all that much of a defining test anyway, and if there’s any one thing that is valuable from PSA testing over time…is seeing the rate at which it rises. A slow rise beginning in late middle-age is common, and from what I understand, as long as the rise is less than .75 over the course of a year, it’s not absolutely indicative of anything odd… but when the numbers go way up, and beyond double digits, it makes sense to follow it up, regardless of your age.

So…over the course of about 4-5 years, my PSA crept up until fall of 2016 it had just crossed the 5.0 line to 5.32, and I decided to follow up with more detailed testing with my local urologist, which I first assumed would automatically be a biopsy, which I didn’t really want…but, with some research I found that MRI screening was now able to give initial indication if there was something there that needed to be biopsied.
Initial MRI was done on a T1.5 system with updated software for prostate imaging, and I had the torso “wrap” plus the IV contrast.  Two lesions were identified…approx. 4mm each, one left posteromedial apex peripheral zone and one approx. 4mm lesion on the right posteromedial mid-to-apex peripheral zone. Both were rated as PI-RADS 4.

The local urologist again wanted to do biopsies, but admitted that with the small sizes if the lesions, there was no guarantee he would be able to hit them using just the TRUS guided method…though he still wanted to do it. I was not ready and did some more checking over the next few weeks and found that there was a new urine test (TMPRSS2:ERG & PCA3) done by MLabs at University of Michigan that could provide a non-invasive screening and probability score for PCa. I then asked my urologist, and we did the test.
The MLabs report came back:
PCA3 = 15 and TMPRSS2:ERG = 3
Prostate Cancer Risk Score: 31% (95% Confidence Interval: 26 – 35%)
High Grade Prostate Cancer Risk Score: 14% (95% Confidence Interval: 11 – 18%)

Not horrible, but still some concerns, and the urologist again mentioned doing the biopsy, but seeing that I was nervous about it, and considering the small size of the lesions to be targeted, he suggested I go to a more specialized urologist where they have the ability to do the MRI fusion imaging.

I found one at a specialized prostate cancer center. He did a PSA check (dropped from 5.32 to 4.9)…did a DRE and noted the prostate was a little enlarged, but nothing odd felt.
We then scheduled another MRI in preparation for the possible fusion biopsy…and he noted that the original MRI was done with a T1.5…but he was going to use a T3, also with IV contrast, which would give a better picture.
The T3 MRI results came back, also noting only the same two 4mm lesions in the same spots….and they were downgraded from the previous MRI (PI-RADS 4)... to PI-RADS 3 on the right and PI-RADS 2 on the left.

 

OK…some hand-wringing, but I came this far, and as much as I wanted to avoid any biopsies, my logic won out, and I decided that I wanted more information…so he did a targeted biopsy of the two lesions and a few cores in and around.
At this point, all my screening and discussion is with this new urologist, and I am no longer seeing my local urologist…though I may see him out of convenience if/when I do PSA checks (or I may just do it all with the urologist who did the biopsies).

I’m not quite clear if he did 12 or 20 cores…because on the pathology report the summary states “Standard 12 Core Biopsy” and that the number of cores total 12….but when you go through the report and count the individual biopsy notations in each area…it comes to 20.
Likewise, on another report…the urologist said 20 cores…so a little confusion there.

That said…the pathologist found cancer in two cores…and the one interesting note was that the pathology was “reversed” from the T3 MRI… where the MRI predicted cancer on the right side and not on the left…the pathology found it on the left side, and not on the right.
One core showed 3+3=6 in approximately 35% of the core, and the other one showed a 3+4=7 involving 55%...BUT…the pathologist noted that the percentage of Gleason pattern 4 was only approximately 5% in that 55% of that core.

My urologist has assigned clinical stage T1c for my PCa.

 

We then took the next step and sent out the one core that kicked up the 5% of Gleason 4 to Genomic Health for their screening.
They gave me a score of 29 where 32 is the median score going from 0 (more favorable) to 60 (less favorable)…and they gave me a 1% chance of prostate cancer death within 10 years and a 6% chance of metastasis within 10 years….with a 46% chance that upon prostate removal, they would find more adverse pathology.

This was the report where my urologist wrote to Genomic Health that I had 20 cores done…but he told me he did 12 and that’s what's on the biopsy report.
What kinda bugged me here is that it was only because of that approximate 5% of Gleason 4 that my urologist put me in the intermediate group instead of low risk…and that’s what Genomic Health also used as the base guide, and did all their percentages and probability from an intermediate group perspective...instead of low risk group.

 

That’s where I am today. All of the above from the initial MRI with my local urologist up to the Genomic Health screening occurred over one year…from Jan 2017 to Jan 2018.
The original MRI was in January 2017…and the second, T3 MRI was in October 2017…and both showed about the same thing, in general.

So now I’m left with considering a follow-up “mapping biopsy” which is what the urologist wants to do now…and he is suggesting some form of treatment…cryo, radiation or removal.
I am wanting to do active surveillance without any follow-up “mapping biopsy”…but he feels I should do it anyway, even if we agree to go with surveillance.

My course of action is to adjust me lifestyle, something that I had already begun knowing that there was the possibility of positive PCa findings…and also to utilize a variety of natural “cancer killers” to slow down and possibly eliminate it naturally…and I would like to only use follow-up PSA testing, physical exams and MRI screenings to monitor any changes…all which are non-invasive screening potions.

I’m not putting formal medical treatment off the table completely…just don’t want to dive into it right away. I would like to give the natural approach at least an opportunity to have some effect…and only then if more/new red flags pop-up with the PSA, DRE and MRI screening down the road…then I would consider another biopsy or just move to one of the whole-gland treatments.
Of course, if the natural approach and subsequent screening is not showing adverse PCa progress…then I would just continue the natural approach and non-invasive screening.
I just don’t think I need to jump into any treatments right now…or more biopsies, which can’t be good for such a small living organ….endless stabs with needles, and the ripping out of tissue. It’s kind of weird that the prostate is the only organ that is often subjected to endless biopsy procedures.

hopeful and opt...
Posts: 2226
Joined: Apr 2009

Some answers.

First Dr. Klotz of Canada is recognized as an experts expert about Active Surveillance. Here is a video where he was interviewed that I suggest that you listen to.

July 2017 Interview with Dr. Klotz https://www.urotoday.com/video-lectures/advanced-prostate-cancer/video/mediaitem/778-embedded-media2017-06-02-13-54-01.html?utm_source=newsletter_4652&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=uroalerts-prostate-cancer-weekly

Great that you received a fusion biopsy. You mention that you are not sure if there were 12 or 20 cores taken. Well, the standard ultrasound biopsy is 12 cores, that is a core taken in each of 12 quadrants of the prostate. In your case, where you had targeted fusion biopsy, there were 8 additional cores that were taken, that were targeted based on the results of the T3 MRI so in total there were 20; 12 blind random cores and 8 targeted cores. If you do not have the pathology results from the biopsy, ask for these results, and also the results of every other medical test that pertains to prostate cancer, so you will have in your possession for discussion and to provide to specialists as required.

There is a difference among pathologists....since your treatment or non treatment is based on the results of the pathology, you want to have the slides sent to a world class pathologist for review, a second opinion. The Gleason or amount of involvement of the 3+4=7 may change. There are about six or eight of these experts; David Grignon in Michagan 313-745-2520, another source that several men at this site use is Johns hopkins. jon epstein. Cost for a second opinion without medical insurance is about $250.

Since a fusion biopsy uses a three dimensional biopsy machine, the urologist has an ability to go back to the exact spot where the 3+4=7 is, biopsy spots around that area, to determine how extensive the 3+4 is . (By the way, since a 3+4 was found in a couple of my biopsies, my doctor has gone back a couple of times to investigate, so I have had some extra biopsies and now a total of seven). This is a key advantage of the fusion biopsy, and you want to do this so you will know where you stand.

As far as eating the correct foods and exercising. I've studied this for a while, and am very strict about what I eat; limiting high fat foods, etc. As far as prostate cancer this is important, whether one is treated or not; since those who are actively treated experience  a more aggressive recurrance with a less healthy diet and life style.  Mick, there was a study by dean ornish md a few years ago where a small group of men(probably not very statistically significant if I remember right experience a small decline in PSA over a year with a low fat, low stress and regular exercise....But to be honest you will really not be able to control the cancer progressing with with an excellent life style at this stage of your life.  ....it will help, but we should have been doing this our whole lives, it will not cure.

The information about food and life style to abate prostate cancer is still evolving, so there is not a particular food that will cure..basically heart heathy is prostate cancer healthy, for example,  when I first started this prostate journey, I ate various foods such as tomatoes, tomato sauces etc for lycopene, which at the time was supposed to be terrific to abate prostate cancer, but now this has been disputed. 

Mick, please do not decide to treat yourself. You need to hire excellent doctors for your medical team and listen to their advice. You need to find out where you stand, so you can be treated if necessary in a timely manner. Do not avoid an exploratory biopsy, or put off treatment because you think that you will find a food or group of foods that will cure.  Also get that second opinion on the pathology.

 

 

Mick01
Posts: 10
Joined: Feb 2018

 

Like I said...seems like most people here end up doing some type of AMA approved treatment or process.

This is not about ignoring the doctors and "treating myself"...it's about NOT jumping into treatments and procedures that may not be necessary, that can cause more damage, and that don't provide any kind of 100% guarantee. Check out the stats for treatments…including the side effects and risks and the type of long-term “guarantees” they give you…. though most doctors never “guarantee” anything, and they never use the word “cure”.

Looking at your own path...apart from multiple biopsies...you've done very little to treat yourself, so in effect, you are just waiting and watching, regardless what the added biopsies have shown to you. That’s not any different from what I am talking about…I’m only saying there are also natural ways to fight the cancer…rather than just wait and watch it.

My intent is to not just wait and watch, but to attack the problem naturally as much as possible. It's not about just "eating right"...there are numerous cancer fighting natural supplements that have been shown to reduce the spread and even stop/kill cancer cells.
I'm not seeing the downside of utilizing them to the fullest to see what difference they can provide...BEFORE I opt for some AMA approved treatment or additional procedure.
There's is always the option of deciding to get medical treatment...something you yourself have not done even though you know you have PCa...so I'm not understanding your "warnings" to do something about my own PCa..? Smile
I'm sure some of your doctors over the last 9 years have suggested you treat your PCa...yet you did not follow their advice either. Do you feel it was foolish not to follow their treatment advice?

AFA more biopsies...with modern MRI screening, the same way they pinpointed the two lesions that were biopsied, they can also see if those lesions are growing and/if other new lesions have formed...BEFORE I get more biopsies.
I just don't need more biopsies now...which was only suggested because we talked about cryo, and he wanted to first map things out so to know how much to freeze.
At this point I'm not looking at the cryo anymore, because it's going to leave too much in question.
If/when I decide on a medical treatment path, I think I will opt for whole gland treatment...which I guess is either one of the radiation procedures or surgery.
I would think surgery makes more sense, because it leaves the option of follow-up radiation down the road if things are not 100% cleared up with surgery...BUT...that's all down the road at this point. I don't see that treatment is needed for now, and by slowing things down a bit, by slowing down the rush to make some *permanent* decisions…I can at least try to attack this more naturally as my first line of defense, and it will not in any way put me at greater risk over the next year, IMO...and I will do the non-invasive screening to keep an eye on things…but medical treatments are not completely off the table if say…a year from now if the PSA, DRE and MRI show something more of concern than what we have now.

I know all the urologist will sell repeated biopsies as their most accurate diagnostic tool...but that's just the AMA approved urological path. I've spoken with and read other views from doctors (like the one you mentioned) who see even repeated biopsies as a bad idea. Oh sure...they're a great diagnostic tool for the urologist...but DO THEY REALLY INCREASE YOUR SURVIVAL?

Anyway...I will check out some of the links you noted...but I think some folks here should check out links for natural alternatives to combating PCa...here's a few.
 

https://www.naturopathic.org/content.asp?contentid=505

 

https://prostate.net/articles/12-natural-prostate-cancer-killers

  

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2015/09/06/survive-prostate-cancer-without-surgery.aspx

 

http://www.raysahelian.com/prostatecancer.html

 

https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/17/health/alternative-vs-conventional-cancer-treatment-study/index.html ("Prostate cancer patients showed no increased risk by choosing alternative medication.")

These are just some of the links that I've gone through...there are more, just Google for natural ways to fight prostate cancer. There are things beyond just "eating right", "exercise" and taking your One-A-Day vitamins...but I think the main problem is that 1.) modern medicine doesn't want to study "herbs" and "vegetables"....and 2.) the whole AMA approved process of screening, diagnosing and treating PCa, is pretty hard-coded, and it takes years for something new to be studied or even considered...never mind actually approved by the FDA and AMA. Modern treatments and pharmaceuticals all have risks and plenty of side effects…so they are also experimenting and we are the beta testers to a great degree.

Again...this is not about treating one's self blindly, and completely ignoring what the doctors are saying...it's about taking a little more control and not rushing into something that you will not be able to undo later on.
I think you've been doing that yourself for the last 9 years...avoiding modern medicine to a great degree. Wink

I would still like to hear from anyone here that hasn’t simply followed some approved AMA protocol and not much else…but looking through the many threads, I’m get the feeling this is not the place for that. Frown

 

hopeful and opt...
Posts: 2226
Joined: Apr 2009

You said, "Again...this is not about treating one's self blindly, and completely ignoring what the doctors are saying...it's about taking a little more control and not rushing into something that you will not be able to undo later on. 

I think you've been doing that yourself for the last 9 years...avoiding modern medicine to a great degree. ;)"

False, I am being treated at a center of excellence, being monitored in an Active Surveillance protocol. Active Surveillance is recommended for low risk prostate cancer patients. I posted the following on the "about me" page.

"Active Surveilance for delayed treatment is a very viable treatment decision for low risk prostate cancer, since 97 percent of men with LRPC are likely to die of something other than prostate cancer. The pathologic stage of patients who are closely monitored, is similar to initally treated patients with LRPC, so the treatment decisions will be very similar. I selected Active Surveilance as my treatment decision in March, 09 . I plan to continue with this treatment option for the rest of my life if I can. If not I feel that I will still be able to seek any necessary treatment"

Mick, I am following the Active Surveillance protocol because I have complete confidence in my doctor. As you notice I have had several evaluation tests rhat show me to be a LRPC patient. 

Mick, to be honest, you have not had sufficient tests to indicate that you are a low risk prostate cancer patient. In fact the amount of involvement of the 3+4=7 that you exhibit may indicate that an active treatment is necessary. I did not mention this in my previous post, but this is the reason that you need a second opinion on the pathology and a follow-up biopsy for the area surrounding the 3+4=7 core as your doctor recommended.

You also mention,

" It's not about just "eating right"...there are numerous cancer fighting natural supplements that have been shown to reduce the spread and even stop/kill cancer cells. 

I'm not seeing the downside of utilizing them to the fullest to see what difference they can provide...BEFORE I opt for some AMA approved treatment or additional procedure. "

Your statement is simply not true. Natural supplements do NOT exist that will reduce the spread and even stop/kill cancer cells. . Please be advised that AMA treatment is based on  evidence based science. 

You said, ".it's about NOT jumping into treatments and procedures that may not be necessary, that can cause more damage, and that don't provide any kind of 100% guarantee. Check out the stats for treatments…including the side effects and risks and the type of long-term “guarantees” they give you…"

This is true. All active treatments have side effects, some more than others. You will have to research the various treatments that are available and the side effects of each. For example cyro therapy that your doctor is interested in administering to you will cause ED. The chances of ED are 100 percent (I wonder if he shared this with you). At any rate there are various active treatments that are available if necessary with varying side effects. During the last nine years I explored these various active treatments so I can make the best choice for me. 

In my opinion you need to determine if you have low risk prostate cancer and can continue with active surveillance by getting appropriate tests and second opinions, while you explore the various active treatments that are available. I and others at this board can provide you with insights if you so wish. Doing your own treatment with "natural" food, supplements , etc. is a fools game. I understand that you want to avoid an active treatment with all potential side effects. Each of us can refuse treatment as you apparently are; however you are NOT QUALIFIED to make a decision based on medical science.

 

Mick01
Posts: 10
Joined: Feb 2018

OK...we are now debating the same things over and over.

My point about your active surveillance is that you are showing a Gleason 3+4=7 4mm (5 % Gleason pattern 4) occupying 30% of biopsy tissue...and the rest are 6. This is pretty much THE SAME as what I've posted for my own biopsy.
Not sure how/why you seem to feel that my desire to also do some surveillance initially...is throwing caution to the wind…?

You also keep saying that you are being actively "treated"...when in fact you are only being actively watched. Maybe we are miscommunicating what constitutes "treatment"...?
From reading your story...I don't see that you have received any actual "treatment".

AFA the natural ways to fight cancer...read the info in the links I posted.
Even Dr. Klotz who you mentioned, is doing research on selected micronutrients for combating prostate cancer... THAT's what I'm referring to when I say “natural ways to fight PCa”...click on some of the links and read.

Anyway...I appreciate your time, and the link for the Klotz video, since his comments actually support what I am looking to do with my own PCa...to actively watch it for a while, as I'm only showing approximately 5% of Gleason 4 (3+4) in only 55% of one core sample, the other core sample showed only 3+3 in 30%...and the remaining biopsy cores showed NO PCa. That's exactly what Klotz was saying should be watched, with a 15 year 80% chance of no metastasis.
He also confirmed that for this type of diagnosis MRI was a good option to use before doing more biopsies...and waiting for at least a couple of years before doing that.

Oh...and why do you say I have not had sufficient tests...???
I had PSA tests, DRE, two MRIs, urine bio marker screening, and 12/20 core biopsies, and Genomic screening.
I think that's quite an extended amount of testing from all angles.
I just get the feeling like you're talking over me and not reading what I'm writing...and in some ways, you are 100% sold on your approach because you are in a clinical study, from which you can not deviate without leaving the study. I get that, and that's your line of thought and action… but I’m not ready to line up for endless biopsies just yet.

I'm confident that I don't need to do anything at least for the next year, maybe two, other than PSA, DRE and MRI...and only when those things show some new/additional concerns, will I opt for more biopsies or just go forward with medical treatment.
In the meantime...all that stuff in the links I posted for your reading...the natural ways to fight PCa...I will be hitting all of them, as I see little to lose in doing so. Smile

 

hopeful and opt...
Posts: 2226
Joined: Apr 2009

 

I feel that you and I are communicating in different dimensions, that you are not open to the suggestions that I made; specifically to revisit the 3+4 area using  the MRI image to determine how extensive the tumor is; getting a second opinion on the pathology, but instead you plan to spend the next year eating natural foods that you select that you believe will help you, and you would like to only use follow-up PSA testing, physical exams and MRI screenings to monitor any changes…all which are non-invasive screenings.

I  hope that you enjoy the foods that you choose, and the medical screenings that you select will provide information to your liking. 

Best wishes

 

 

 

 

Mick01
Posts: 10
Joined: Feb 2018

Yup...we are in different dimensions.

First off...a confirmatory biopsy does not need to be done immediately after the initial diagnosing biopsy....in many cases it's recommended to be done within one year...or even two.

There is NOTHING negative about using PSA, DRE, MRI for screening prior to a second biopsy, and also that MRI can be used to better target that second biopsy if needed.
Meanwhile, during that year or so before the second biopsy is done, nothing is lost to utilize a natural approach to fighting PCa...only foolish people would ignore doing that.
The up side....when the PSA, DRE and MRI screenings are done prior to any second biopsy, and the results turn up better instead of worse...one might then hold off a little longer on the second biopsy, and follow up with additional PSA, DRE and MRI screenings UNTIL those screenings indicate that things are turning for the worse...and only then additional biopsies or just going for treatment would be considered. It’s the least invasive way to fight PCa…for as long as possible.

Like I said...you're involved in a study program, so you have already taken a specific path that you now are compelled to follow. That’s your choice.
Non-invasive active surveillance is what I want to start off with, and take the smaller, more conservative steps until there is a need to do more.

I'm surprised with all those biopsies you've managed to avoid the slew of potential high-risk infection issues and side effects, just from the biopsy procedures.
I also wonder how many more cores can they possibly need before they've poked holes in every square mm of your prostate...? …but I guess when it's a study, you're stuck with them endlessly studying your prostate with endless biopsies.

To tell the truth...I would have opted to just have it done with a treatment instead of 9 years’ worth of repeat biopsies and never-ending anxiety.
Yes, the PSA, DRE and MRI screenings also come with some anxiety, but at least I won’t have the concerns and anxiety about repeat biopsies, which are very invasive and full of risk... but we all must choose the best path for ourselves.

Sorry to trouble eveyone here with my attempt at discussing something more than just the AMA approved options.

Grinder
Posts: 442
Joined: Mar 2017

Mick... I think we have to consider do What cancer actually is, and what naturopathic remedies actually do.

Cancer cells are like little rebels in your body... They are not following orders. A typical normal cell has programmed cell death, called apoptosis. However, cancer cells are mutated versions that have that programming distorted. They also reproduce similar cells with mutated DNA that have now distorted apoptosis. They stay alive and keep reproducing more cells that won't die and also keep reproducing. They will burst out of the organ in uncontrolled growth and metastasize. They can travel to other areas, even the brain, where they can build, strangely, a sort of cancerous prostate in other areas by replicating without apoptosis. Then the body starts to surround the cancerous cells with tissue in self defense. And a tumor forms and continues to grow as the cancerous cells continue to replicate without apoptosis.

Currently there are several ways to treat these rebels, or as this forum refers to them once they metastasize, bandits. Your own immune system is your best defense, the same as your body would defend against any pathogen. That is the only role i can see for naturopathic remedies, if they do indeed enhance the immune system and the mechanisms involved.I

Radiation, in its various forms, kills the targeted rebel cell. Technology has increased the accuracy of targeting, so fewer healthy cells are killed as "collateral damage" reducing side effects. There are no naturopathic remedies yet that target cancerous cells but discriminate them from healthy cells.

Chemotherapy kills the cancerous cells, but have a much more broad indiscrimination and collateral damage of healthy cells. Thus, patients go through severe side effects of healthy cells being killed and the experience of illness and deleterious side effects. If a naturopathic remedy really did kill cancerous cells it would have a similar effect as chemotherapy.

What has not been discovered as yet, not to my knowledge, is a treatment that can reprogram a cancerous cell to fail to reproduce, or reproduce other cells with corrected apoptosis. This would render the rebel cell harmless if it does not reproduce. If anyone knows of such a treatment that renders the cancerous cell "impotent" I would like to hear about it. Certainly there is no such naturopathic remedy.I

Another solution, remove the gland before the bandit escapes.

If you believe you know  of a naturopathic remedy that does any of these, besides enhancing the immune system, I would like to hear it, but I doubt it.

 

Grinder
Posts: 442
Joined: Mar 2017

Btw... That is why we test our PSA scores after having the gland removed. If a "bandit" has metastasized and traveled elsewhere, it continues to produce Prostate Specific Antigen, because, even though it is somewhere else, it is still, after all, a prostate cell. No naturopathic remedy can target that bandit prostate cell and discriminate from healthy cells. 

Mick01
Posts: 10
Joined: Feb 2018

I guess you guys simply never bothered to read about natural supplements and foods that actually can inhibit cancer cell growth, cut off the cancer cell's fuel supply and/or change the environment so that it's difficult for the cancer cells to live in.

I provided a bunch of links in a previous post...seems like no one here wants to bother to read...everyone is just stuck in one of the AMA approved treatment paths, and that's all anyone here wants to talk about....and the side effects and shortcoming of those treatments.
I'll say this one last time...it's not about abandoning medical treatment altogether, but rather about improving your chances before you even get to the medical treatment, and/or in conjunction with it. The trouble is that modern medicine and big pharmaceuticals are not interested in doing broad studies and clinical trials on anything “natural”...only the occasional doctor will discuss alternative approaches, but the rest just follow the program they know.

Even my urologist said that if I went to most of the standard cancer centers…they will all pretty much follow the same protocols without deviation or consideration of anything outside of that. Kinda like what most of the people here seem to be doing.

Read everything, consider everything...don't just toe the line.

 

 

 

hopeful and opt...
Posts: 2226
Joined: Apr 2009

"https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

 

PubMed comprises more than 28 million citations for biomedical literature from MEDLINE, life science journals, and online books. Citations may include links to full-text content from PubMed Central and publisher web sites."

This is a scientfic based listing of various medical procedures and research that has been done, to include, but not limited to  studies about food intake and suppliments.

Mick, these are the studies used by the medical community, and that I and others at this board  find useful. I personally will not base my medical future on non scientific based information that may place me in harms way.  

 

hopeful and opt...
Posts: 2226
Joined: Apr 2009

Promoting Wellness Beyond Hormone Therapy (options for prostate cancer patients) Mark A Moyad, MD. MPH

The China Study  T. Colin Campbell, PHD

DVD.....FORKSoverKNIVES   (available net flick, public library, purchase)

Eat to Live   Joel Fuhrman MD

Dean Ornish MD    https://www.google.com/search?authuser=0&source=hp&ei=6LeCWp_dLqqd0gLW_6zQBg&q=ornish+prostate+cancer&oq=ornish+prostat&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i20i263k1j0j0i22i30k1l6.2087.6208.0.9539.15.14.0.0.0.0.224.1645.4j9j1.14.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.14.1643.0..35i39k1j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i20i264k1j0i10k1.0.NiHLUlUK2Zg

 

Clevelandguy
Posts: 472
Joined: Jun 2015

Hi all,

The reason that most major hospitals & cancer centers follow the established protocols is because they work.  There are a lot of  new treaments and medicines coming out that hopefully will prove effective but the data is not there yet.  You might find out that natural medicines can cure cancer but at this point in time I would not throw out the "standard" treaments and eat tree bark for the next year because I heard it somewhere that it could kill cancer. When I first found out I had Pca I wanted to know what "proven" procedures or medicines would get rid of the cancer.  I was not interested in being a lab rat for some new kind of drug that might work out in a few years.  Mick01 if you want to be the lab rat and try your whatever herbal remedy, go ahead and report back in 5 years and let us know how it worked.  I think most people who come here for advice want a cure and not just hope that a common mineral or herb "might" cure their cancer.  The day of the quick and easy cure has not come yet.  You can blame it on the drug companies, AMA, EPA, FEMA or FIC or whatever other institution you want, but established procedures do get rid of the cancer as a lot of people on this board can testify to.

 

Dave 3+4

Mick01
Posts: 10
Joined: Feb 2018

" I think most people who come here for advice want a cure and not just hope that a common mineral or herb "might" cure their cancer.  The day of the quick and easy cure has not come yet. "

[facepalm] Boy you people have a hard time with reading comprehension. Laughing
 
Where the heck am I (or anyone in those links I provided) saying anything about eating "bark" or using some "quick and easy cure"...???
It's about using nature and your body's immune system to fight what was caused by *natural* processes gone bad, and a failing or weak immune system.
Heck, even the AMA has turned a lot of its attention to utilizing your own body's immune system to fight cancers, and many pharmaceutical (synthetic) drugs are being used for that purpose...
...but when someone mentions also using a natural approach to achieve the same immune system benefits, you people scoff at that...?...and opt instead for bombarding your bodies with toxins (radiation) or getting surgery…both that may cause as much harm to other things, as whatever good they do for the PCa.

You talk about the AMA treatments as "cures"...when in fact THEY ARE NOT!
Ask your doctor if any of those treatments will CURE your 100%...and I bet not a single one of them will ever use that word with that kind of guarantee. They always quote percentages and leave plenty of room for error, and the "possibility" that your cancer may show up again down the road. Your “hope” hangs in the balance of those percentages and where your situation will fall into.

If there was a 100% CURE for PCa…none of you would be here talking about all the risks, all the side effects and all the anxiety of the PCa not being complete gone, and the endless repeat testing and biopsies to keep checking for it…etc.
That’s some “cure”.
I’m going to give myself every opportunity to avoid as much of that as I can, for as long as I can…and I will still have the medical options down the road if really needed….but once you get that radiation or that surgery…there’s no going back.

So I will no longer debate here the value of natural options *prior to committing to medical options*…as I see most of you are very closeminded and/or you’ve already committed yourselves, which means you can’t go back, so of course, why discuss alternatives.
If however anyone here is truly interested in discussing some of the natural options, rather than just preaching against them….I’ll be happy to continue here.
Good luck to you all.

Clevelandguy
Posts: 472
Joined: Jun 2015

Hi,

Natural cures for any kind of cancer are great, I don't think any have been proven effective for Pca yet.  Gonna take some time & clinical trials to prove them effective.  But those trials will be done by the doctors & hospitals that you don't trust.  Don't even know if you have Pca Mick01, but there are a lot of people on this board that have been cured(or put into remission) long term by either radiation or surgery.  I feel that you are the closed minded one by not accepting proven treatment methods over non proven ones.

If you do have cancer I am sure that you will adventually(the next few years) choose the toxic surgery or radiation that does not cure any cancer but just supports the AMA corporate line.  Natural cures are fine when we find some that work.

Dave 3+4

Mick01
Posts: 10
Joined: Feb 2018

 

And you're one more person that simply doesn't read what I've said...many times. You just want to preach the fear angle.

 

For the last time...I have never taken medical treatments off the table, nor do I intend to.
I am saying that there is too much of a rush to "get it done" or to "get it out" ...even in many cases where there is sufficient time to explore many options, including natural ones as a first step in management and possibly for suppression, maybe even remission.
With the various non-invasive screening options that exist...it's not difficult to monitor your progress…or if things start to get worse, choose the medical treatments that are still there.

For those with more advanced stages of PCa...time becomes much shorter for exploring options, so do what you think is best....but even in the extreme cases, you should certainly supplement whatever medical treatment you've chosen with a battery of natural support options. Not doing so and only relying on the radiologist, the surgeon and the pharmaceuticals...is foolish, IMO.

 

hopeful and opt...
Posts: 2226
Joined: Apr 2009

You are not the first person who posted about foods curing, several years ago, a woman was beside herself; her spouse was eating only strawberries to cure himself;  his criteria was to reduce his  PSA....we told her that he was a fool....shortly afterhe posted to this board, and was very angry. ....So we advised her to  have strawberries waiting  on the table for him every day.

We at this board, have studied this beast for years. Your conclusion on what needs to be done is not scientific based, it is done by an amateur (YOU).We have given you input which you disregard. I wish you well. .....

.

.......eat that snake oil, I mean,  the  nutrition  foods that  will cure you ( don't forget the  strawberries ), eat them several times a day....you can do it, you can cure yourself...

VascodaGama's picture
VascodaGama
Posts: 3046
Joined: Nov 2010

Mick,

Everyone here is reading your posts and has understood what you said. Nobody is against your trust or wishes you have in what you call “natural treatments”. In fact all survivors have done their researches and got to decisions they believe to be or have been the best option to care their cases. I hope you find your choice too.

You have not listed yet or given details about the “natural treatments” you so fervourly defend or are looking for. The links you provided above are not new to us. The matter has been discussed here several times. I myself have been involved in some of those trials with Selenium and Aspirin to verify its benefits in prostate cancer care. I also have researched back in 2001 on those “natural” options when living in Japan. At that time the Chinese sort of medicine was very wanted by westerns but local doctors that have been educated on both types of medicine were the ones in fact recognizing the none existence of real benefits in those “natural treatments” for prostate cancer. Herbs, vegies, fruits, etc, thought to be good in fighting cancer are used in diets that claim the same benefit. The supplements follow the same principle but at higher prices and without conclusive benefits.  

My oncologist in Singapore was one of the investigators on the so famous PC SPES that many at the time thought to be an alternative supplement to PCa because this drug/herbal compound did lower the PSA. It was found that PC SPES got hormonal substances in the mixture (the reason behind the lower PSA) but this supplement was tenfold more expensive than the typical drugs doing the job. This case was worldwide reported. You can read some details on the case in below two links. The later introduces the revival of the supplement by a company of different name with the same owners behind.

https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/cam/hp/pc-spes-pdq

http://www.cam-cancer.org/The-Summaries/Herbal-products/PC-SPES/What-is-it

The following link details well the subject on "Complementary and Alternative Medicine (CAM)";

https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/cam

In Japan there is the kampoyaku network (traditional Chinese herbal medicine) very respected by the Japanese. They do not mix the benefit of herbal treatments with western style therapies and do not claim any cure, but they provide the clientele with information regarding the “action” of the supplements/mixtures they sell. None are used for permanent purposes but as preventive. In any case, the matter belongs to their culture, and eating habits. Japanese diet is known to be well balanced and healthy. In Europe the Mediterranean diet is considered as one of the best. In 2013, UNESCO added the Mediterranean diet to the Representative List of the Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity of Italy, Morocco, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Cyprus, and Croatia. I am Portuguese so that I experienced such diet while living in Portugal and later I digested the Japanese diet during 30 years. None of the above stopped me from contracting PCa 20 years ago.

It would be interesting listen the experience of guys that did well with “natural treatments” in prostate cancer. I believe that the many here would like to read their stories. Unfortunately nobody has ever provided clues on the outcomes from such supplements.

Japanese researchers have investigated on the most typical herbs used today in alternative medicine but with more than two thousand years of experience. Some of their works has been published at PUbMed (a respected library on medical papers) where you may find several studies. In this link you may read a paper on one traditional herb named Juzen-taiho-to;

 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1513143/

 

 Best wishes,

VGama

 

Grinder
Posts: 442
Joined: Mar 2017

Friend... In one post you said "I guess you guys simply never bothered to read about natural supplements and foods that actually can inhibit cancer cell growth, cut off the cancer cell's fuel supply and/or change the environment so that it's difficult for the cancer cells to live in."

 

 then you said later "It's about using nature and your body's immune system to fight what was caused by *natural* processes gone bad, and a failing or weak immune system.

Heck, even the AMA has turned a lot of its attention to utilizing your own body's immune system to fight cancers, and many pharmaceutical (synthetic) drugs are being used for that purpose...
...but when someone mentions also using a natural approach to achieve the same immune system benefits, you people scoff at that...?."

 

 No one has disagreed that naturopathic remedies can enhance your immune system. We have disagreed with any article that claims naturopathic remedies can "change the environment " Because an environmental change that affects cancerous cells will adversely affect healthy cells. The only real remedy that is capable of discriminating between killing cancerous cells and sparing healthy cells is your immune systrm, and that  not always perfectly, as anyone with an auto-immune disease like Crohn's will tell you.

Just because an article claims that a naturopathic remedy can "inhibit cancer cell growth" does not mean it has been subjected to the experimental method, submitted to peer review, and verified by similar results. Everyone here likely has a long list of remedies that we hoped would spare us the cost and dangers of conventional treatment. 

I myself  tried numerous remedies at the behest of non-traditional "experts". Some things worked, some things did not. But for my prostate issues, nothing worked, no matter how highly touted. Saw Palmetto, Pomegranate, Tomato, Uva Ursi, Grapefruit Extract, Marshmallow, Asparagus Juice, etc etc.  All touted by various experts with detailed explanations how they would cure my prostate issues. But in the end, the only thing that kept me from life with long term catheters was Flomax and low dose Cialis... But just barely enough to get by without 24 hour a day catheterization. Then, finally, my recurring Staph prostate infection and prostate cancer and dependence on Flomax and catheters was solved by robotic prostatectomy.

But if you want to chase after those remedies as cancer cures, no one is stopping you. But we are hoping, when crunch time comes, you won't "bet your life" on them. Glad you are open to conventional treatments somewhere down the line. Just don't mistake our skepticism for  stubborn ignorance. Been there done that. And if you find I was wrong and you find a naturopathic supplement that does more than enhance your immune system, but even kills cancer cells while not harming healthy cells, I would love to know and I will eat my hat... But I have my doubts.

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