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Opinions Please...Alternative vs. Chemo

alexinlv's picture
alexinlv
Posts: 194
Joined: Jul 2010

Of course this has been the topic of many discussions before and I hope it's ok to bring this up again, but my husband, stage iv, and I really are trying to figure out what to do as his first chemo in 18 months is coming up on Friday. He has 4 mets to liver and we are awaiting the results of the pet scan. So... any input at this point is appreciated. I am posting another thread regarding getting a second opinion from docs too. Thank you all very much. Alex

KathiM's picture
KathiM
Posts: 8077
Joined: Aug 2005

How about 'Complimentary' medicine WITH chemo? I did that..but I was only stage III...

Hugs, Kathi

alexinlv's picture
alexinlv
Posts: 194
Joined: Jul 2010

Yes, I like that. Complimentary. What can you tell me?

lisa42's picture
lisa42
Posts: 3661
Joined: Jul 2008

Hi Alex,

I am stage IV and am currently doing both traditional chemo and am taking some alternative herbal supplements at the same time. I feel that the supplements are keeping my blood counts healthy and they've been all in the normal zone- no problem with low platelets or low red count since I've started the supplements. I'd be happy to share what I take in a pm with you, if you're interested in hearing more.

Take care-
Lisa

alexinlv's picture
alexinlv
Posts: 194
Joined: Jul 2010

Thank you, Lisa. Yes we are interested in hearing more. Alex

lisa42's picture
lisa42
Posts: 3661
Joined: Jul 2008

Don't want to start any debates on particular supplements, as has happened on this board before, so I am sending you a pm listing what I currently am taking.

Lisa

ellejaydee
Posts: 1
Joined: Oct 2011

Hi Lisa42. Im new to this site and am looking for more info regarding the supplements you are taking. My husband has stage 4 cc. Diagnosed 06/12/11. He is currently on Folfox & Avastin. He is also taking immunocal(immune system booster), black strap molasses (to increase blood count)and milk thistle(liver). Any and all help/info is greatly appreciated.

KathiM's picture
KathiM
Posts: 8077
Joined: Aug 2005

Hugs, Kathi

John23's picture
John23
Posts: 2140
Joined: Jan 2007

To do any alternative, or not to do it, is a very, very personal decision.

We humans should rely on our basic animal instincts for survival; it's
what keeps wild animals alive without pills and chemicals.

We can't tell a loved one, or any individual what may be best,
we can and should, only provide the information that the individual
can use to make their decision in the most informed way.

Stage four is complex..... There is no "stage five". It's a damned
scary place to be when you prefer to stay alive!

All "alternatives" take time to work. If the tumor is about to take
your life and surgery is not possible, then chemo or radiation
may be more suitable, regardless of the side effects. The "alternatives"
can be used when the "coast is clear", and you have the time to
make use of the non-toxic remedies.

I had "spots" on my liver since day one of DX. I still have a massive
'fatty tissue' looking area on my liver, yet nothing has increased in size
since the last scan. PET scans will indicate any amount of glucose
uptake that exceeds the glucose uptake of the surrounding area.
Big deal! Is it cancer, or is it normal cells in the healing process?

I fear PET scans, since they often can produce false positives.
A "false positive" will incite the chant for starting or continuing
chemotherapy.

The choice to do chemo, radiation, or an alternative, is a personal
one; one that not one of us should encourage one way or the other.

Each has it's use, and each has it's perils. Weighing the facts of each,
is important. And each of us should help the sufferer find the information
about each modality.

There are many ways to fight cancer, and the choice it always
optional and to the sufferer's discretion.

You'll find the right way...... take your time and learn!

The very best to you and your's,

John

tanstaafl's picture
tanstaafl
Posts: 1302
Joined: Oct 2010

Complementary or integrative choices are dependent on the nature of of the disease AND the chemotherapy. Often the fact appears to be that one is trading therapeutic molecules for similar functionality, hopefully the alternative and natural molecules less toxic and more multifunctional than the pharmaceutical drugs. Oxaliplatin has raised the most questions on compatibility but each chemo has to evaluated against all the alternative ingredients.

Bottom line is that one can try to hit a dozen molecular targets "alternatively", whereas the "big gun" pharmaceutical versions only allow ~3 versions together before the body likely surrenders totally, and permanently.

In my wife's case, we felt that the mildest chemo available, a UFT (5FU prodrug) based immunochemotherapy developed by Japanese research, would provide a long term, continuous backbone chemo to stop metastasis of microscopic clusters. This approach allows over a dozen complementary additions while reasonably preserving her immune functions. The commitment is that surgery or other physical destruction of larger, chemoresistant mets is accomplished, no matter what, rather than trashing the body while beating down mets with heavy duty chemo. Since advanced nutrition can engage faster, superior recovery and wound healing, we're less afraid of post-surgical complications, and are able to get out of the hospital sooner.

We were even able to utilize the immunochemo during surgery, based on a number of prior Japanese studies, although I have my doubts that normal patients will be able get this level of service in US hospitals.

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
Posts: 4912
Joined: May 2005

Window seat or Aisle seat?
Coffee or Tea?
Butter or Margarine?
Ice Cream of Frozen Yogurt?
Get the idea?
To each their own.
I do agree with others that it doesn't have to be this OR that.
Why not this AND that?

Buzzard's picture
Buzzard
Posts: 3073
Joined: Aug 2008

just started Folfiri/Avastin/5fu........I now also added on my own through research and help from friends, 2000-5000 mg / day of L- Glutamine, 4 mg of Vit K, 2 mls of Milk Thistle Extract and will soon start a regimen of PSK in which has been experimented with in Japan for 20 years or more with moderate to good result. My thoughts are that as long as it doesn't interfere with my standard treatment regimen ( one that I am told was standard protocol per US regs ), then as an advocate for my own health and well being I will search out information and use what I think (and others) might aid in my journey....
I have felt as if my digestive system is better, I do have more energy, and my farts smell a little worse...other than that, for me its a start to better health...emotionally, physically, and mentally.......for me its a win/win.......and I not only thank but applaude all of you that have stepped up to aid in helping me with this journey all the way around...all of you are great........buzz

pete43lost_at_sea's picture
pete43lost_at_sea
Posts: 3908
Joined: Nov 2010

i could not resist answering

Window seat or Aisle seat? Aisle as we often have to goto the loo
Coffee or Tea? neither caffene is bad for our liver
Butter or Margarine? neither, but if you must a little butter
Ice Cream of Frozen Yogurt? i just had some berry frozen yogurt while my kids have icecream.

hugs,
pete

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
Posts: 4912
Joined: May 2005

There's always a cork!
Postum or herbal?
Butter...Promise
Yogurt ain't ice cream. If I was on a desert island and that's all there was I'd consider it.

Everything in moderation but one should never take moderation to extremes!

Once again, no one knows what will work for everyone, we just have our own experiences.
I can't say chemo failed. It didn't fail me. I also can't say alternatives failed, I didnt try them.

Good luck, I hope whatever you decide works like a charm
-p

pete43lost_at_sea's picture
pete43lost_at_sea
Posts: 3908
Joined: Nov 2010

the cork, its a shame i don't drink wine any more but i'll try and get a few spare corks.
and moderation, well thats good for some, i wan't to be in the extreme club.
but as we say here often too each his own.

we call our shots, we play the cards we are dealt and i guess we share it here!

i hope my goodluck continues, life in survivorship has got a certain sparkle it never had before crc.

hugs,
pete

pete43lost_at_sea's picture
pete43lost_at_sea
Posts: 3908
Joined: Nov 2010

alex,

I am not being cheeky but honest. every day i learn something new about the wide range of
alternativers i am trying to manage. trying being the operative word.

from tcm, to supplements, to diet, to exercising, to meditation to medical care.

my advice, is get the best professional advice you can afford, that you have access to.

i have seen many surgeons, oncologists, nauropaths, chemists, physios, etc etc etc
they have often provided conflicting opinions, and that what i like and then i decide what i am going to do, and so my friend must your husband.

workout your priorities, i have evolved my survival strategy over time, as my disease has been treated.

if possible try and do it all with a smile, being pressured about all the options available to us cancer battlers is self defeating in my book.

where is even the best place to start . for me it was the liver bible by sandra cabot. now i am reading this 1000 page plus health from the life extension foundation. both great reads. of course i failed to mention anticancer by david sch????/. All these books taught me alot.

good luck finding somewhere to start.

my strategy was initially alternative and chemo and surgery and chemo and now alternatives.

hugs,
pete

Buckwirth's picture
Buckwirth
Posts: 1271
Joined: Jun 2010

"...get the best professional advice you can afford..."

In the US that is not as simple as it might seem.

For example, there are at least two competing organizations licensing Naturopaths, each claiming the other is fraudulent or dangerous.

Of course I only need a license in 12 of the 50 states, with Nevada and California being states where anyone, regardless of education or intelligence, can hang a shingle claiming to be a doctor of Naturopathy. There is even an internet site, where for $10 I can get the legal title of Doctor (it is for religion, but I can still use the title without explaining it).

Same is true for TCM in these states.

Then, even if you decide which organization is right, and you find an NP that is credentialed, you have no way to verify that the credentials have not been forged.

In this country, spending more money is no guarantee of better (or even real) care.

tanstaafl's picture
tanstaafl
Posts: 1302
Joined: Oct 2010

Blake, naturopaths are ND and/or NMD. NP is nurse practitioner.

And of course you're right how corrupt and dangerous self proclaimed medical bodies can be in the US. There are other medical claimant organizations that are both privately owned and frequently rented, some since the nineteenth century, that have routinely attacked and destroyed the most skilled medical practitioners and pioneers, while promoting things like cigarettes. Or others that promote population based endocrine poisons for general water contamination and routine oral placement. "A-A" on your dial.

In this country, spending more money is no guarantee of better (or even real) care
Amen. One can spend $5, $10, even $15,000 per month in licensed US facilities trying to avoid having a parent further damaged or put down with approved or standard medical practices, even when the MDs are shown directly to be wrong in their results. Most laws concerning medicine are about social approval, and control.

pete43lost_at_sea's picture
pete43lost_at_sea
Posts: 3908
Joined: Nov 2010

blake,
thanks for pointing out the challenges to good care, but i guess all we can do
anywhere is try to get the best care.

and i agree with your point that money does not buy quality, see my i love henry post he is cheap and experienced and i trust him and most importantly i have faith in him personally.

trust me, that drinking the chinese herbal medicine was a big leap of faith for me. but i made the leap of faith and i don't regret it. sipping tea right now.

hugs,
pete

Lifeisajourney
Posts: 217
Joined: Apr 2010

I hardly ever write anymore, but never miss your posts and bless all of you. I was dxd 12/8, did 7 rounds of folfox with major issues as a result. Spent 10 day in hospital, I have severe neuropothy in hands,feet,arms,legs. Stomach pretty tight-could be adhesions. In 2/11, got mets to liver, resectin at major c hospital was tried, but failed. Bad liver, if they take out tumor/liver, I probably won't survive, Bad place for RFA, sewed back up, took a lot to recover from6/1 and my colons issues and other issues ITI's, have kept me down most of the time, in other words, I am feel like crap always, so I am refusing Sir Sphere and chemo, so far. CEA was 7 last month, just had c scan, no big changes yet,so I will tell the onc for now I want to live even thou I know it will probably not be forever.Taking some suppliments, watch our foods, but It is my choice for now. They said possible 2 years with chemo, but no assurance on side effects, which I feel sure I'll have especially colon. I don't want to sound negative, but it is my decision for now,,,,,,,and I reserve the right to change my mind and go for chemo. This may sound crazy to most of you, but I feel it is ok for now for me. Age is a factor.......bless those of you who fight on and I respect everyone's thoughts...this arena has been a wonderful place for me. In a way I feel I am experimenting to.....Pat

Buckwirth's picture
Buckwirth
Posts: 1271
Joined: Jun 2010

Thank you for your post.

For the record, I support your decision 100%, and fully understand the quality of life issues involved in making it, though I also understand the difficulty others have with this.

May your cancer be a slow growing one, and may you live for many more years in relative comfort,

Blake

John23's picture
John23
Posts: 2140
Joined: Jan 2007

Fearing "doing" can be appraised and proved, but fearing
"not-doing" is only a psychological fear.

The mega-trillion dollar cancer industry counts on the
"fear of not doing".

They attempt to scare the cancer sufferers by dwelling on
the lack of "licensing", or the lack of "records" or the lack
of bonafide test trials, FDA approvals, or "statistics".

What they don't manage to mention, are the vast numbers of
licensed physicians that make wrong diagnosis', prescribe
medications that do more harm than good, or simply make
terribly wrong judgement calls that impair lives.

I have been prescribed Nitro for AF by a licensed physician.
Had I taken it, I would not be typing to you right now.

My wife was to take a "Baby aspirin" to offset the bad effects
of VIOXX by a licensed physician. (VIOXX was later removed
from the market by the FDA for it's noted erosion of the
cardiovascular system)
(My wife suffered a ruptured cerebral aneurysm as a result of
over ten years usage of it)

My trip to the ER for extreme dehydration (due to a high output
Ileostomy and a "short bowel syndrome", was met with a diagnosis by
the head physician of the ER, as: "a severe heart defect that is causing
the kidney to suffer, making it appear as if you are dehydrated".

I was initially refused hydration unless I accepted heart medications.
(I refused and signed papers; was hydrated - heart returned to normal)

While in ICU, I had an appointment made by a leading Oncologist
to have a pet scan while I was still in ICU. (A PET while the body
is in the healing process will give false positives) (confirmed by
two other surgeons)

A license does not make a good physician, but it does provide
the illusion of being well-learned and competent.

Entrusting your life to anyone else's judgement, is a gamble. It's even
more of a gamble when what the physician is prescribing, are chemicals
that are noted to carry severe health consequences, including cancer.

A "Naturopath" does not prescribe cancer-causing chemicals.
A TCM practitioner does not utilize cancer-causing herbs.

A "license" doesn't mean a thing..

The best example of course: Florida drivers are licensed to drive.

I guess that should be enough, ehh?

My very best wishes for good health to you (and everyone else!),

John

Buckwirth's picture
Buckwirth
Posts: 1271
Joined: Jun 2010

"...The mega-trillion dollar cancer industry..."

Trillions? For cancer?

The global pharmaceutical industry was only $770b in 2008, and Cancer makes up a mere $70b of that (less than 10%). As a matter of fact, the market for cardiovascular drugs is 50% larger than the market for cancer drugs.

The best selling cancer drug of 2008? Avastin at $4.7b. This is a patent protected drug, so this accounts for all of its sales. To put it in comparison, Bayer sold over $1b just in Aspirin, and if you took in the whole market for OTC pain relievers, it makes Avastin look like a minor player. Oh, and if you want to look at markup, compare any Bayer aspirin to the generic at your local market. Having worked in the generic field, I can confirm that there is no difference in the product, just in the cost, and the retailer is earning about twice the margin on the generic.

Oh, and lets look at a player in the Alternative market: Boiron, the largest (I believe) manufacturer of homeopathic remedies, whose gross profit percentage is 77% according to their financial disclosures, this for an industry that really spends next to nothing on research and development. One of their best selling drugs is called Oscillococcinum, which is a flu remedy, with the active ingredient listed on their website as "Anas barbariae hepatis et cordis", which translates to extract of Muscovy Duck liver and heart. This is diluted to the point that an annual supply for the company ($20mm in the US alone) requires the sacrifice of a single Muscovy Duck.

John23's picture
John23
Posts: 2140
Joined: Jan 2007

While I can sympathize and appreciate, your fear of dying of cancer,
and also appreciate your remarkable conviction to the choices
you've made for your fight.....

Your constant insistence that anything but what you are using for
your fight against cancer is worthless, is truly a detriment to the
survival of others, who may not be as lucky with conventional
cancer therapies.

There are other, safer ways, Blake.... that can do as well as the
other "mainstream" modalities available that are known to do
as much harm to one's body, as the cancer they attempt to fight.

You are allowing the fear of "not doing", to aim you to the
corporate mantra of "what should be done" .

Be careful, my friend.....try to be objective, if not for yourself,
for those lives around you.

My best hopes for you!

John

Buckwirth's picture
Buckwirth
Posts: 1271
Joined: Jun 2010

"...While I can sympathize and appreciate, your fear of dying of cancer,..."

What? How dare you make claims of what others fear (btw, this will be about the fifth time you have insinuated I was going to die, or insinuated that there was some short, fixed timeline for my life expectancy, and I am getting a bit tired of it).

"...Your constant insistence that anything but what you are using for
your fight against cancer is worthless..."

Never said that, and if you can find where I did I will give $100 to ACS. I bet I can find where you said it though, and hope you will make the same offer back to me.

You demonize using half truths and exaggerations, then accuse others of fear mongering and saying there is only one way. Pphht.

Yours is a great story John, you should try to live up to it when you post.

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
Posts: 4912
Joined: May 2005

I don't understand what the FEAR thing is John. Out of the 10 times the word was used in this thread (prior to my post), 7 came from you and 3 were Blake's response to your comments to him.
The "F" word is in the majority of your posts.
Don't spread this around....but everyone is going to die someday...
Sure, cancer is scary but I'm not fear driven. I've been afraid but I'm not fear driven.
I think if one becomes driven by fear, then they lose the ability to think clearly.

We certainly can handle cancer and/or live in fear as much as we want. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It's our life and we can do what we want (isn't that a song?)
I'm just afraid we keep visiting the "F" word more than we need to.
(did I just express fear?)
-phil
;-)

pete43lost_at_sea's picture
pete43lost_at_sea
Posts: 3908
Joined: Nov 2010

good luck with your experiment.
hugs,
pete

pete43lost_at_sea's picture
pete43lost_at_sea
Posts: 3908
Joined: Nov 2010

good luck with your experiment.
hugs,
pete

Lifeisajourney
Posts: 217
Joined: Apr 2010

I just wanted to lay out my plan for me for now. You guys are to valuable because you do have different approaches to this disease. I really believe in Johns theories, but a little chicken to go there, so I am doing my approach, which is probably wrong, but I have to live it. I know how bad I feel normally and how bad I'll feel on chemo and what could go wrong with chemo. Haven't had much luck with chemo, surgery, made my choices, now I have to live with them.....not that they are right, but what I feel. I still have options,but choose them not for now,, could miss that opportunity, but still my choice....love you all, and everyone should see these differences, so they can pick their course.......Kiss and make up and keep posting your points.........you are valuable to many people, who are traveling this road....Pat

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
Posts: 4912
Joined: May 2005

I just want to see them kiss!
:-)
There is no right or wrong, only what's right for YOU.
Best wishes to you...
-phil

here4lfe
Posts: 306
Joined: Jan 2010

There are some, John23, and pete_lost_at_sea and lisa42 who post their alternative regimes on their profiles. You may want to check those out.

My wife is following the advice of her oncologist. When we brought up the subject, he seemed to think whatever works, just inform him to make sure it complements the chemotheraphy.

Best

laurettas
Posts: 372
Joined: May 2011

For me, I need some evidence from others using a particular treatment showing that it works before I will take the chance on using it. I go on these boards and read numerous stories of stage four people taking chemo, radiation and surgery and living much past the medians quoted. Have asked for twelve people who have had active cancer and used alternative methods to control the growth and or eliminate their cancer and haven't gotten those examples yet. Yes, there are two or three but I have read as many examples of people whose cancer disappeared after doing little or nothing for treatment. At this point we have to go with the treatment that gives the best numbers, much as I hate seeing what the treatment does to my husband. Have to mention, too, that the only time he has thrown up so far in five months was after eating a capsule of gingeroot!

Buzzard's picture
Buzzard
Posts: 3073
Joined: Aug 2008

I made the statement in a post above that I was taking 4000 mg of Vitamin C per day....sorry my friend let me know of that error...It is actually 4 mg per day not 4000..The 4000 was micrograms.....just wanted to clear that up..I will change it in the prior post to assure that no one does read it and not the rest of these and starts crappin oranges...........sorry for the mistake.........buzz

pete43lost_at_sea's picture
pete43lost_at_sea
Posts: 3908
Joined: Nov 2010

from the net
Vitamin C content of a fresh orange is 53 mg per 100 grams, or 70 mg for an average sized orange.

you might get sore hands peeling that many.

hugs,
pete

pete43lost_at_sea's picture
pete43lost_at_sea
Posts: 3908
Joined: Nov 2010

i have been through my 14 months of crc hell, chemo/rad, then surgery to remove my big t4 stage 3c rectal tumour. 6 months folfox with no breaks and grea blood tests mostly, moderate to severe neuropathy atferward. chronic diarrhea during folfox while with the ilieostomy.

now i started living like a healthy rabbit the day i was diagnosed, having milk thistle healthy diet, tcm , massage, meditation, hypnosis. my naturopath helped me manage my chronic diarrhea with probiotics, supplements and diet without any codiene. this really helped protect my liver as i understand it. my liver enzymes raised a little towards the end of chemo and soon were normal. i tried samE, lots of different supplements.

i think they helped me, of course i cannot say for sure, except for the diarrhea management. so i believe as crc patients we have many options that may help make chemo more manageable, help the body bounce back from radiation, from surgery even fight off malaria.

i had a complete response to chemo/radiation initially. my radiation oncologist was so happy. did the beetroot juice, the chinese mushrooms contribute to the effectiveness. cannot say for sure either, but i think so.

oncologists are really busy and specialised, they have to focus on colorectal. they just don't have all the answers. not all the things that can help us have been triple bind studied. so the onc's cannot recommend. we cannot recommend.

in my desperation i have tried what i thought had a reasonable chance of helping me, thats all. i am glad i have.

i cannot comment of stage 4 who have had active cancer cured by alternatives, its not my experience. but i will speak up for one stage 3 that has been helped by complimentary therapies. i rest easy with what i have tried and continue to try. thats all.

now i never eat gingerroot, but i often add a thumb nail sized piece of ginger in my vegetable juice most mornings with celery, beetroot, carrot and a few other random greens and fruits. not thrown up yet. touch wood.

sorry your husband is suffering, the stage 4 treatments sound very heavy. lots gets posted here about things that may help. for me this forum is about ideas. i have read things here and then do my own research and gone with a few suggestions. often its been more that a few other crc's have picked up the same supplements and approaches and i find some comfort that the things i am trying are being used by others here as well.

i hope your husband is feeling better. if your interested look up milk thistle as a starting point, some top onc recommend it, most don't. search our archives on it and lisa42.

hugs,
pete

laurettas
Posts: 372
Joined: May 2011

Yes, unfortunately, the step up from stage three to four is a big one. My dad had stage three years ago, a few months of 5FU and a few weeks of radiation and he was finished. Three years ago he did have to have surgery to remove scar tissue from radiation that was strangling his intestines. But he did nothing to change his lifestyle, which as far as diet is terrible--lots of Hostess desserts and potato chips! Don't think that my husband is going to get away with that simple of treatment with his stage four.

I have been reading about the supplements but can't find any conclusive evidence that they work. For my husband, I am not sure that he can take a lot of them. He has hay fever allergies and it seems that herbal treatments are not tolerated well. He tried echinacea for colds twice and ended up in bed sicker than he had ever been. Bad effects from one ginger pill so I am nervous to recommend things when his track record on these sorts of things is not too good!

One of the things that settles his stomach better than most anything is to eat meat. Carbs don't work as well for him, so he eats a lot of meat and so far his blood levels are in the normal range. I could draw the conclusion that meat is the way to go to keep blood levels healthy. Right now, however, our biggest concern is to keep the side effects of the chemo to a minimum and one of the worst for my husband is a tender stomach. Meat helps so he eats it. Right now he is able to eat regularly and go out and do physical things on our farm every day. There is not a day that he is incapacitated even tho he is on FOLFIRI and Erbitux. Quality of life is a biggie for us and so far what we are doing seems to be working well for him, especially compared to some we read about who seem to be quite debilitated from chemo.

As Phil says, what works for the individual is what is right for that person and what Jake is doing seems to be working well for him right now. Glad that your choices are working well for you, too!

pete43lost_at_sea's picture
pete43lost_at_sea
Posts: 3908
Joined: Nov 2010

i hope jake keeps on feeling well. i agree, if its working don't break it. that wish that my choices are working well, is really the key to all these supplement discussions. i hope my supplements are helping, no way of knowing conclusively, just hoping. the juicing , the teas, the supplements take alot of time and expense. i really hope they are worth it. so far so good but i am not even a year out from surgery. plenty of time for things to go wrong ie crc comeback. but also plenty of time to do things to try to stop it.
hugs,
pete

offthewall's picture
offthewall
Posts: 4
Joined: Oct 2011

Hi - hubby stage 4 - on 3rd round chemo - CEA going down - taking AHCC - Japanese mushroom extract used extensively in Japanese hospitals. 5-FU too - but less than 1/2 the original dosage. See my AHCC thread posted 10/4/11 too. (he also takes many anti-oxidents - all with knowledge if not full approval of doctors.

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