Opinions Please...Alternative vs. Chemo

alexinlv
alexinlv Member Posts: 194 Member
Of course this has been the topic of many discussions before and I hope it's ok to bring this up again, but my husband, stage iv, and I really are trying to figure out what to do as his first chemo in 18 months is coming up on Friday. He has 4 mets to liver and we are awaiting the results of the pet scan. So... any input at this point is appreciated. I am posting another thread regarding getting a second opinion from docs too. Thank you all very much. Alex
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Comments

  • KathiM
    KathiM Member Posts: 8,028 Member
    My 2 cents....
    How about 'Complimentary' medicine WITH chemo? I did that..but I was only stage III...

    Hugs, Kathi
  • alexinlv
    alexinlv Member Posts: 194 Member
    KathiM said:

    My 2 cents....
    How about 'Complimentary' medicine WITH chemo? I did that..but I was only stage III...

    Hugs, Kathi

    Yes, I like that.
    Yes, I like that. Complimentary. What can you tell me?
  • lisa42
    lisa42 Member Posts: 3,625 Member
    both
    Hi Alex,

    I am stage IV and am currently doing both traditional chemo and am taking some alternative herbal supplements at the same time. I feel that the supplements are keeping my blood counts healthy and they've been all in the normal zone- no problem with low platelets or low red count since I've started the supplements. I'd be happy to share what I take in a pm with you, if you're interested in hearing more.

    Take care-
    Lisa
  • alexinlv
    alexinlv Member Posts: 194 Member
    lisa42 said:

    both
    Hi Alex,

    I am stage IV and am currently doing both traditional chemo and am taking some alternative herbal supplements at the same time. I feel that the supplements are keeping my blood counts healthy and they've been all in the normal zone- no problem with low platelets or low red count since I've started the supplements. I'd be happy to share what I take in a pm with you, if you're interested in hearing more.

    Take care-
    Lisa

    Thank you, Lisa. Yes we are
    Thank you, Lisa. Yes we are interested in hearing more. Alex
  • John23
    John23 Member Posts: 2,122 Member
    Alex -

    To do any alternative, or not to do it, is a very, very personal decision.

    We humans should rely on our basic animal instincts for survival; it's
    what keeps wild animals alive without pills and chemicals.

    We can't tell a loved one, or any individual what may be best,
    we can and should, only provide the information that the individual
    can use to make their decision in the most informed way.

    Stage four is complex..... There is no "stage five". It's a damned
    scary place to be when you prefer to stay alive!

    All "alternatives" take time to work. If the tumor is about to take
    your life and surgery is not possible, then chemo or radiation
    may be more suitable, regardless of the side effects. The "alternatives"
    can be used when the "coast is clear", and you have the time to
    make use of the non-toxic remedies.

    I had "spots" on my liver since day one of DX. I still have a massive
    'fatty tissue' looking area on my liver, yet nothing has increased in size
    since the last scan. PET scans will indicate any amount of glucose
    uptake that exceeds the glucose uptake of the surrounding area.
    Big deal! Is it cancer, or is it normal cells in the healing process?

    I fear PET scans, since they often can produce false positives.
    A "false positive" will incite the chant for starting or continuing
    chemotherapy.

    The choice to do chemo, radiation, or an alternative, is a personal
    one; one that not one of us should encourage one way or the other.

    Each has it's use, and each has it's perils. Weighing the facts of each,
    is important. And each of us should help the sufferer find the information
    about each modality.

    There are many ways to fight cancer, and the choice it always
    optional and to the sufferer's discretion.

    You'll find the right way...... take your time and learn!

    The very best to you and your's,

    John
  • tanstaafl
    tanstaafl Member Posts: 1,313 Member
    individualized integrative medicine
    Complementary or integrative choices are dependent on the nature of of the disease AND the chemotherapy. Often the fact appears to be that one is trading therapeutic molecules for similar functionality, hopefully the alternative and natural molecules less toxic and more multifunctional than the pharmaceutical drugs. Oxaliplatin has raised the most questions on compatibility but each chemo has to evaluated against all the alternative ingredients.

    Bottom line is that one can try to hit a dozen molecular targets "alternatively", whereas the "big gun" pharmaceutical versions only allow ~3 versions together before the body likely surrenders totally, and permanently.

    In my wife's case, we felt that the mildest chemo available, a UFT (5FU prodrug) based immunochemotherapy developed by Japanese research, would provide a long term, continuous backbone chemo to stop metastasis of microscopic clusters. This approach allows over a dozen complementary additions while reasonably preserving her immune functions. The commitment is that surgery or other physical destruction of larger, chemoresistant mets is accomplished, no matter what, rather than trashing the body while beating down mets with heavy duty chemo. Since advanced nutrition can engage faster, superior recovery and wound healing, we're less afraid of post-surgical complications, and are able to get out of the hospital sooner.

    We were even able to utilize the immunochemo during surgery, based on a number of prior Japanese studies, although I have my doubts that normal patients will be able get this level of service in US hospitals.
  • PhillieG
    PhillieG Member Posts: 4,866 Member
    Paper or Plastic?
    Window seat or Aisle seat?
    Coffee or Tea?
    Butter or Margarine?
    Ice Cream of Frozen Yogurt?
    Get the idea?
    To each their own.
    I do agree with others that it doesn't have to be this OR that.
    Why not this AND that?
  • KathiM
    KathiM Member Posts: 8,028 Member
    lisa42 said:

    both
    Hi Alex,

    I am stage IV and am currently doing both traditional chemo and am taking some alternative herbal supplements at the same time. I feel that the supplements are keeping my blood counts healthy and they've been all in the normal zone- no problem with low platelets or low red count since I've started the supplements. I'd be happy to share what I take in a pm with you, if you're interested in hearing more.

    Take care-
    Lisa

    Lisa just described 'complementary'....
    Hugs, Kathi
  • pete43lost_at_sea
    pete43lost_at_sea Member Posts: 3,900 Member
    PhillieG said:

    Paper or Plastic?
    Window seat or Aisle seat?
    Coffee or Tea?
    Butter or Margarine?
    Ice Cream of Frozen Yogurt?
    Get the idea?
    To each their own.
    I do agree with others that it doesn't have to be this OR that.
    Why not this AND that?

    sorry phil
    i could not resist answering

    Window seat or Aisle seat? Aisle as we often have to goto the loo
    Coffee or Tea? neither caffene is bad for our liver
    Butter or Margarine? neither, but if you must a little butter
    Ice Cream of Frozen Yogurt? i just had some berry frozen yogurt while my kids have icecream.

    hugs,
    pete
  • pete43lost_at_sea
    pete43lost_at_sea Member Posts: 3,900 Member
    just start learning and fast
    alex,

    I am not being cheeky but honest. every day i learn something new about the wide range of
    alternativers i am trying to manage. trying being the operative word.

    from tcm, to supplements, to diet, to exercising, to meditation to medical care.

    my advice, is get the best professional advice you can afford, that you have access to.

    i have seen many surgeons, oncologists, nauropaths, chemists, physios, etc etc etc
    they have often provided conflicting opinions, and that what i like and then i decide what i am going to do, and so my friend must your husband.

    workout your priorities, i have evolved my survival strategy over time, as my disease has been treated.

    if possible try and do it all with a smile, being pressured about all the options available to us cancer battlers is self defeating in my book.

    where is even the best place to start . for me it was the liver bible by sandra cabot. now i am reading this 1000 page plus health from the life extension foundation. both great reads. of course i failed to mention anticancer by david sch????/. All these books taught me alot.

    good luck finding somewhere to start.

    my strategy was initially alternative and chemo and surgery and chemo and now alternatives.

    hugs,
    pete
  • Buckwirth
    Buckwirth Member Posts: 1,258 Member

    just start learning and fast
    alex,

    I am not being cheeky but honest. every day i learn something new about the wide range of
    alternativers i am trying to manage. trying being the operative word.

    from tcm, to supplements, to diet, to exercising, to meditation to medical care.

    my advice, is get the best professional advice you can afford, that you have access to.

    i have seen many surgeons, oncologists, nauropaths, chemists, physios, etc etc etc
    they have often provided conflicting opinions, and that what i like and then i decide what i am going to do, and so my friend must your husband.

    workout your priorities, i have evolved my survival strategy over time, as my disease has been treated.

    if possible try and do it all with a smile, being pressured about all the options available to us cancer battlers is self defeating in my book.

    where is even the best place to start . for me it was the liver bible by sandra cabot. now i am reading this 1000 page plus health from the life extension foundation. both great reads. of course i failed to mention anticancer by david sch????/. All these books taught me alot.

    good luck finding somewhere to start.

    my strategy was initially alternative and chemo and surgery and chemo and now alternatives.

    hugs,
    pete

    Pete,
    "...get the best professional advice you can afford..."

    In the US that is not as simple as it might seem.

    For example, there are at least two competing organizations licensing Naturopaths, each claiming the other is fraudulent or dangerous.

    Of course I only need a license in 12 of the 50 states, with Nevada and California being states where anyone, regardless of education or intelligence, can hang a shingle claiming to be a doctor of Naturopathy. There is even an internet site, where for $10 I can get the legal title of Doctor (it is for religion, but I can still use the title without explaining it).

    Same is true for TCM in these states.

    Then, even if you decide which organization is right, and you find an NP that is credentialed, you have no way to verify that the credentials have not been forged.

    In this country, spending more money is no guarantee of better (or even real) care.
  • Lifeisajourney
    Lifeisajourney Member Posts: 216
    My Decision
    I hardly ever write anymore, but never miss your posts and bless all of you. I was dxd 12/8, did 7 rounds of folfox with major issues as a result. Spent 10 day in hospital, I have severe neuropothy in hands,feet,arms,legs. Stomach pretty tight-could be adhesions. In 2/11, got mets to liver, resectin at major c hospital was tried, but failed. Bad liver, if they take out tumor/liver, I probably won't survive, Bad place for RFA, sewed back up, took a lot to recover from6/1 and my colons issues and other issues ITI's, have kept me down most of the time, in other words, I am feel like crap always, so I am refusing Sir Sphere and chemo, so far. CEA was 7 last month, just had c scan, no big changes yet,so I will tell the onc for now I want to live even thou I know it will probably not be forever.Taking some suppliments, watch our foods, but It is my choice for now. They said possible 2 years with chemo, but no assurance on side effects, which I feel sure I'll have especially colon. I don't want to sound negative, but it is my decision for now,,,,,,,and I reserve the right to change my mind and go for chemo. This may sound crazy to most of you, but I feel it is ok for now for me. Age is a factor.......bless those of you who fight on and I respect everyone's thoughts...this arena has been a wonderful place for me. In a way I feel I am experimenting to.....Pat
  • Buckwirth
    Buckwirth Member Posts: 1,258 Member

    My Decision
    I hardly ever write anymore, but never miss your posts and bless all of you. I was dxd 12/8, did 7 rounds of folfox with major issues as a result. Spent 10 day in hospital, I have severe neuropothy in hands,feet,arms,legs. Stomach pretty tight-could be adhesions. In 2/11, got mets to liver, resectin at major c hospital was tried, but failed. Bad liver, if they take out tumor/liver, I probably won't survive, Bad place for RFA, sewed back up, took a lot to recover from6/1 and my colons issues and other issues ITI's, have kept me down most of the time, in other words, I am feel like crap always, so I am refusing Sir Sphere and chemo, so far. CEA was 7 last month, just had c scan, no big changes yet,so I will tell the onc for now I want to live even thou I know it will probably not be forever.Taking some suppliments, watch our foods, but It is my choice for now. They said possible 2 years with chemo, but no assurance on side effects, which I feel sure I'll have especially colon. I don't want to sound negative, but it is my decision for now,,,,,,,and I reserve the right to change my mind and go for chemo. This may sound crazy to most of you, but I feel it is ok for now for me. Age is a factor.......bless those of you who fight on and I respect everyone's thoughts...this arena has been a wonderful place for me. In a way I feel I am experimenting to.....Pat

    Pat,
    Thank you for your post.

    For the record, I support your decision 100%, and fully understand the quality of life issues involved in making it, though I also understand the difficulty others have with this.

    May your cancer be a slow growing one, and may you live for many more years in relative comfort,

    Blake
  • lisa42
    lisa42 Member Posts: 3,625 Member
    alexinlv said:

    Thank you, Lisa. Yes we are
    Thank you, Lisa. Yes we are interested in hearing more. Alex

    PM on the way
    Don't want to start any debates on particular supplements, as has happened on this board before, so I am sending you a pm listing what I currently am taking.

    Lisa
  • tanstaafl
    tanstaafl Member Posts: 1,313 Member
    Buckwirth said:

    Pete,
    "...get the best professional advice you can afford..."

    In the US that is not as simple as it might seem.

    For example, there are at least two competing organizations licensing Naturopaths, each claiming the other is fraudulent or dangerous.

    Of course I only need a license in 12 of the 50 states, with Nevada and California being states where anyone, regardless of education or intelligence, can hang a shingle claiming to be a doctor of Naturopathy. There is even an internet site, where for $10 I can get the legal title of Doctor (it is for religion, but I can still use the title without explaining it).

    Same is true for TCM in these states.

    Then, even if you decide which organization is right, and you find an NP that is credentialed, you have no way to verify that the credentials have not been forged.

    In this country, spending more money is no guarantee of better (or even real) care.

    even more
    Blake, naturopaths are ND and/or NMD. NP is nurse practitioner.

    And of course you're right how corrupt and dangerous self proclaimed medical bodies can be in the US. There are other medical claimant organizations that are both privately owned and frequently rented, some since the nineteenth century, that have routinely attacked and destroyed the most skilled medical practitioners and pioneers, while promoting things like cigarettes. Or others that promote population based endocrine poisons for general water contamination and routine oral placement. "A-A" on your dial.

    In this country, spending more money is no guarantee of better (or even real) care
    Amen. One can spend $5, $10, even $15,000 per month in licensed US facilities trying to avoid having a parent further damaged or put down with approved or standard medical practices, even when the MDs are shown directly to be wrong in their results. Most laws concerning medicine are about social approval, and control.
  • John23
    John23 Member Posts: 2,122 Member

    My Decision
    I hardly ever write anymore, but never miss your posts and bless all of you. I was dxd 12/8, did 7 rounds of folfox with major issues as a result. Spent 10 day in hospital, I have severe neuropothy in hands,feet,arms,legs. Stomach pretty tight-could be adhesions. In 2/11, got mets to liver, resectin at major c hospital was tried, but failed. Bad liver, if they take out tumor/liver, I probably won't survive, Bad place for RFA, sewed back up, took a lot to recover from6/1 and my colons issues and other issues ITI's, have kept me down most of the time, in other words, I am feel like crap always, so I am refusing Sir Sphere and chemo, so far. CEA was 7 last month, just had c scan, no big changes yet,so I will tell the onc for now I want to live even thou I know it will probably not be forever.Taking some suppliments, watch our foods, but It is my choice for now. They said possible 2 years with chemo, but no assurance on side effects, which I feel sure I'll have especially colon. I don't want to sound negative, but it is my decision for now,,,,,,,and I reserve the right to change my mind and go for chemo. This may sound crazy to most of you, but I feel it is ok for now for me. Age is a factor.......bless those of you who fight on and I respect everyone's thoughts...this arena has been a wonderful place for me. In a way I feel I am experimenting to.....Pat

    Pat -

    Fearing "doing" can be appraised and proved, but fearing
    "not-doing" is only a psychological fear.

    The mega-trillion dollar cancer industry counts on the
    "fear of not doing".

    They attempt to scare the cancer sufferers by dwelling on
    the lack of "licensing", or the lack of "records" or the lack
    of bonafide test trials, FDA approvals, or "statistics".

    What they don't manage to mention, are the vast numbers of
    licensed physicians that make wrong diagnosis', prescribe
    medications that do more harm than good, or simply make
    terribly wrong judgement calls that impair lives.

    I have been prescribed Nitro for AF by a licensed physician.
    Had I taken it, I would not be typing to you right now.

    My wife was to take a "Baby aspirin" to offset the bad effects
    of VIOXX by a licensed physician. (VIOXX was later removed
    from the market by the FDA for it's noted erosion of the
    cardiovascular system)
    (My wife suffered a ruptured cerebral aneurysm as a result of
    over ten years usage of it)

    My trip to the ER for extreme dehydration (due to a high output
    Ileostomy and a "short bowel syndrome", was met with a diagnosis by
    the head physician of the ER, as: "a severe heart defect that is causing
    the kidney to suffer, making it appear as if you are dehydrated".

    I was initially refused hydration unless I accepted heart medications.
    (I refused and signed papers; was hydrated - heart returned to normal)

    While in ICU, I had an appointment made by a leading Oncologist
    to have a pet scan while I was still in ICU. (A PET while the body
    is in the healing process will give false positives) (confirmed by
    two other surgeons)

    A license does not make a good physician, but it does provide
    the illusion of being well-learned and competent.

    Entrusting your life to anyone else's judgement, is a gamble. It's even
    more of a gamble when what the physician is prescribing, are chemicals
    that are noted to carry severe health consequences, including cancer.

    A "Naturopath" does not prescribe cancer-causing chemicals.
    A TCM practitioner does not utilize cancer-causing herbs.

    A "license" doesn't mean a thing..

    The best example of course: Florida drivers are licensed to drive.

    I guess that should be enough, ehh?

    My very best wishes for good health to you (and everyone else!),

    John
  • PhillieG
    PhillieG Member Posts: 4,866 Member

    sorry phil
    i could not resist answering

    Window seat or Aisle seat? Aisle as we often have to goto the loo
    Coffee or Tea? neither caffene is bad for our liver
    Butter or Margarine? neither, but if you must a little butter
    Ice Cream of Frozen Yogurt? i just had some berry frozen yogurt while my kids have icecream.

    hugs,
    pete

    :-)
    There's always a cork!
    Postum or herbal?
    Butter...Promise
    Yogurt ain't ice cream. If I was on a desert island and that's all there was I'd consider it.

    Everything in moderation but one should never take moderation to extremes!

    Once again, no one knows what will work for everyone, we just have our own experiences.
    I can't say chemo failed. It didn't fail me. I also can't say alternatives failed, I didnt try them.

    Good luck, I hope whatever you decide works like a charm
    -p
  • Buckwirth
    Buckwirth Member Posts: 1,258 Member
    John23 said:

    Pat -

    Fearing "doing" can be appraised and proved, but fearing
    "not-doing" is only a psychological fear.

    The mega-trillion dollar cancer industry counts on the
    "fear of not doing".

    They attempt to scare the cancer sufferers by dwelling on
    the lack of "licensing", or the lack of "records" or the lack
    of bonafide test trials, FDA approvals, or "statistics".

    What they don't manage to mention, are the vast numbers of
    licensed physicians that make wrong diagnosis', prescribe
    medications that do more harm than good, or simply make
    terribly wrong judgement calls that impair lives.

    I have been prescribed Nitro for AF by a licensed physician.
    Had I taken it, I would not be typing to you right now.

    My wife was to take a "Baby aspirin" to offset the bad effects
    of VIOXX by a licensed physician. (VIOXX was later removed
    from the market by the FDA for it's noted erosion of the
    cardiovascular system)
    (My wife suffered a ruptured cerebral aneurysm as a result of
    over ten years usage of it)

    My trip to the ER for extreme dehydration (due to a high output
    Ileostomy and a "short bowel syndrome", was met with a diagnosis by
    the head physician of the ER, as: "a severe heart defect that is causing
    the kidney to suffer, making it appear as if you are dehydrated".

    I was initially refused hydration unless I accepted heart medications.
    (I refused and signed papers; was hydrated - heart returned to normal)

    While in ICU, I had an appointment made by a leading Oncologist
    to have a pet scan while I was still in ICU. (A PET while the body
    is in the healing process will give false positives) (confirmed by
    two other surgeons)

    A license does not make a good physician, but it does provide
    the illusion of being well-learned and competent.

    Entrusting your life to anyone else's judgement, is a gamble. It's even
    more of a gamble when what the physician is prescribing, are chemicals
    that are noted to carry severe health consequences, including cancer.

    A "Naturopath" does not prescribe cancer-causing chemicals.
    A TCM practitioner does not utilize cancer-causing herbs.

    A "license" doesn't mean a thing..

    The best example of course: Florida drivers are licensed to drive.

    I guess that should be enough, ehh?

    My very best wishes for good health to you (and everyone else!),

    John

    "...The mega-trillion dollar cancer industry..."

    Trillions? For cancer?

    The global pharmaceutical industry was only $770b in 2008, and Cancer makes up a mere $70b of that (less than 10%). As a matter of fact, the market for cardiovascular drugs is 50% larger than the market for cancer drugs.

    The best selling cancer drug of 2008? Avastin at $4.7b. This is a patent protected drug, so this accounts for all of its sales. To put it in comparison, Bayer sold over $1b just in Aspirin, and if you took in the whole market for OTC pain relievers, it makes Avastin look like a minor player. Oh, and if you want to look at markup, compare any Bayer aspirin to the generic at your local market. Having worked in the generic field, I can confirm that there is no difference in the product, just in the cost, and the retailer is earning about twice the margin on the generic.

    Oh, and lets look at a player in the Alternative market: Boiron, the largest (I believe) manufacturer of homeopathic remedies, whose gross profit percentage is 77% according to their financial disclosures, this for an industry that really spends next to nothing on research and development. One of their best selling drugs is called Oscillococcinum, which is a flu remedy, with the active ingredient listed on their website as "Anas barbariae hepatis et cordis", which translates to extract of Muscovy Duck liver and heart. This is diluted to the point that an annual supply for the company ($20mm in the US alone) requires the sacrifice of a single Muscovy Duck.
  • John23
    John23 Member Posts: 2,122 Member
    Buckwirth said:

    "...The mega-trillion dollar cancer industry..."

    Trillions? For cancer?

    The global pharmaceutical industry was only $770b in 2008, and Cancer makes up a mere $70b of that (less than 10%). As a matter of fact, the market for cardiovascular drugs is 50% larger than the market for cancer drugs.

    The best selling cancer drug of 2008? Avastin at $4.7b. This is a patent protected drug, so this accounts for all of its sales. To put it in comparison, Bayer sold over $1b just in Aspirin, and if you took in the whole market for OTC pain relievers, it makes Avastin look like a minor player. Oh, and if you want to look at markup, compare any Bayer aspirin to the generic at your local market. Having worked in the generic field, I can confirm that there is no difference in the product, just in the cost, and the retailer is earning about twice the margin on the generic.

    Oh, and lets look at a player in the Alternative market: Boiron, the largest (I believe) manufacturer of homeopathic remedies, whose gross profit percentage is 77% according to their financial disclosures, this for an industry that really spends next to nothing on research and development. One of their best selling drugs is called Oscillococcinum, which is a flu remedy, with the active ingredient listed on their website as "Anas barbariae hepatis et cordis", which translates to extract of Muscovy Duck liver and heart. This is diluted to the point that an annual supply for the company ($20mm in the US alone) requires the sacrifice of a single Muscovy Duck.

    Blake -
    While I can sympathize and appreciate, your fear of dying of cancer,
    and also appreciate your remarkable conviction to the choices
    you've made for your fight.....

    Your constant insistence that anything but what you are using for
    your fight against cancer is worthless, is truly a detriment to the
    survival of others, who may not be as lucky with conventional
    cancer therapies.

    There are other, safer ways, Blake.... that can do as well as the
    other "mainstream" modalities available that are known to do
    as much harm to one's body, as the cancer they attempt to fight.

    You are allowing the fear of "not doing", to aim you to the
    corporate mantra of "what should be done" .

    Be careful, my friend.....try to be objective, if not for yourself,
    for those lives around you.

    My best hopes for you!

    John
  • Buckwirth
    Buckwirth Member Posts: 1,258 Member
    John23 said:

    Blake -
    While I can sympathize and appreciate, your fear of dying of cancer,
    and also appreciate your remarkable conviction to the choices
    you've made for your fight.....

    Your constant insistence that anything but what you are using for
    your fight against cancer is worthless, is truly a detriment to the
    survival of others, who may not be as lucky with conventional
    cancer therapies.

    There are other, safer ways, Blake.... that can do as well as the
    other "mainstream" modalities available that are known to do
    as much harm to one's body, as the cancer they attempt to fight.

    You are allowing the fear of "not doing", to aim you to the
    corporate mantra of "what should be done" .

    Be careful, my friend.....try to be objective, if not for yourself,
    for those lives around you.

    My best hopes for you!

    John

    Can I call you a coward?
    "...While I can sympathize and appreciate, your fear of dying of cancer,..."

    What? How dare you make claims of what others fear (btw, this will be about the fifth time you have insinuated I was going to die, or insinuated that there was some short, fixed timeline for my life expectancy, and I am getting a bit tired of it).

    "...Your constant insistence that anything but what you are using for
    your fight against cancer is worthless..."

    Never said that, and if you can find where I did I will give $100 to ACS. I bet I can find where you said it though, and hope you will make the same offer back to me.

    You demonize using half truths and exaggerations, then accuse others of fear mongering and saying there is only one way. Pphht.

    Yours is a great story John, you should try to live up to it when you post.