Liver damage

scouty
scouty Member Posts: 1,965 Member
I'm starting a new thread about this because it is near and dear to my heart and very much an integral part of my journey. If you don't want to hear about how your diet can impact your health (good and bad), stop reading now!

In 2004 when I decided to stop chemo, I still had 2 active tumors in my liver and my oncologist had told me I had a "fatty liver". I was also getting ready to have to go on a 4th different blood pressure med, my blood levels were abysmal, my body was a mess, and my mindset was scaring me. I had to change things and had to do it quickly and aggressively.

I did a ton of reading about what I could do to get my body back as quickly as I could. I concentrated on my blood levels and the cleansing of my elimination system. My thinking was that if I "cleaned it up and got as much gunk out, then it would work more efficiently and effectively. I started with my liver and pancreas. With the help of my ND, I started juicing twice a day. There were several things that did for my body. It got already broken down nutrients into my liver about as quickly as you can while giving my digestive system a break. I only ate red meat once or twice a month because it is so difficult and time consuming for the body to digest. I juiced 1/4 carrots, cabbage, celery, and beets. The beets were specifically for my liver and bloodstream.

When I did eat any meat, poulty, or dairy products I made sure they didn't contain any antiboitics or had been given steriods or growth hormones. The liver also gets rid of toxins and other "bad" things so I didn't want to add an additional burden to it. I wanted it "firing on all cylinders", I really needed it to. I also only ate grass fed not grain fed products since they have less fat and more nutrition.

Lastly and I'm probably going to get blasted for this but I avoided sugar for a while. Sugar, known as sucrose (including beet and cane, white and brown) is made up of a 50/50% combo of a molecule of fructose and a molecule of glucose. Fructose is the sweeter of the 2 molecules. There are also products with free standing fructose and free standing glucose, like fruits and veggies. High fructose corn syrup is a man made product that is 55% fructose and 45% glucose, much sweeter than sucrose.

Free standing fructose is absorbed by the small intestines and that is why some babies and adults may get diarhea from eating certain fruits and veggies.

Sucrose is not absorbed by the small intestines, it is sent to the liver. The liver splits the molecules and sends the glucose on out into the body for all cells to metabolise but keeps the fructose and metabolises it itself! If it gets too much fructose at one time, like in liquid form from a soda the liver converts it to fat and it's not one of the good fats our bodies need. It is bad fat and contributes to a fatty liver. So to again take additional burden off my liver I avoided sugar as much as I could for months.

I did take milk thistle later on but not the first year. The cool thing about the liver is it is very responsive and can be affected very quickly.

I hope this helps some of you. If you want a really good explanation about the sugar "stuff" and how the president of Sloan-Ketterings Cancer Center and the director of the Cancer Center at Harvard Medical School feel about it, you really should read the long article Hatsheput posted a few weeks ago title "Is Sugar Toxic".

Lisa P.
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Comments

  • Nana b
    Nana b Member Posts: 3,030 Member
    Thanks for the info Scouty!
    Thanks for the info Scouty! Keep on living healthy! I plan to!
  • janie1
    janie1 Member Posts: 753 Member
    beets
    I'm reading and learning. Did u say you were juicing beets for a while, but then stopped due to the sugar content. Or is juicing always a good thing. The sugar and the juicing always confuses me. Thanks everyone.
  • Nana b
    Nana b Member Posts: 3,030 Member
    janie1 said:

    beets
    I'm reading and learning. Did u say you were juicing beets for a while, but then stopped due to the sugar content. Or is juicing always a good thing. The sugar and the juicing always confuses me. Thanks everyone.

    Scouty, I juice beets but
    Scouty, I juice beets but very little...how much do you add to drink?
  • scouty
    scouty Member Posts: 1,965 Member
    Nana b said:

    Scouty, I juice beets but
    Scouty, I juice beets but very little...how much do you add to drink?

    I juiced twice daily for 18 months
    Then went to daily............I never worried about the sugar content in the veggies since most of it is free fructose absorbed by the small intestine and never hits the liver. There is some sucrose in fruits and veggies but a minimal amount especially compared to the amounts in added sugar products.

    Hey Rachel, I started slow cuz that stuff is potent. I always had about 20 oz of juice and after adding a little more of the beet juice every few days it was 1/4 or 5 oz. I did equal amounts of the 4 veggies and got so I could eyeball it with the different sized. I also got it down to a 15 minute ordeal from opening the fridge to finishing cleaning up.

    Break's over, back to mowing the yard.
  • PGLGreg
    PGLGreg Member Posts: 731
    sucrose
    The CFA (Corn Refiners Association) claims that HFCS is essentially equivalent to sucrose, nutritionally, since sucrose is broken down into 50% each fructose and glucose. In his article "Is Sugar Toxic?", Taubes seems to have accepted this claim, and says that sucrose is just as bad for you as HFCS. Lustig says this, also.

    --Greg
  • maglets
    maglets Member Posts: 2,576 Member
    PGLGreg said:

    sucrose
    The CFA (Corn Refiners Association) claims that HFCS is essentially equivalent to sucrose, nutritionally, since sucrose is broken down into 50% each fructose and glucose. In his article "Is Sugar Toxic?", Taubes seems to have accepted this claim, and says that sucrose is just as bad for you as HFCS. Lustig says this, also.

    --Greg

    thank you Lisa
    nice to hear your clear calm voice.....

    and your thread was nicely introduced too

    tell me you aren't really cutting grass/////hahahah we don't have any yet

    good to see you kiddo

    best regards, mags
  • scouty
    scouty Member Posts: 1,965 Member
    PGLGreg said:

    sucrose
    The CFA (Corn Refiners Association) claims that HFCS is essentially equivalent to sucrose, nutritionally, since sucrose is broken down into 50% each fructose and glucose. In his article "Is Sugar Toxic?", Taubes seems to have accepted this claim, and says that sucrose is just as bad for you as HFCS. Lustig says this, also.

    --Greg

    Direct quote from Taubes article
    Greg, Yes they do both say that there is no difference between the 2 but that's mostly because both are equally bad for you. Below is the actual qoote from the article (my printed out page 3).

    "Refined sugar (that is, sucrose) is made up of a molecule of the carbohydrate glucose, bonded to a molecule of the carbohydrate fructose — a 50-50 mixture of the two. The fructose, which is almost twice as sweet as glucose, is what distinguishes sugar from other carbohydrate-rich foods like bread or potatoes that break down upon digestion to glucose alone. The more fructose in a substance, the sweeter it will be. High-fructose corn syrup, as it is most commonly consumed, is 55 percent fructose, and the remaining 45 percent is nearly all glucose."

    I have a brother who is a type 1 diabetic (compliments of agent orange from the Vietnam War regretfully) and he says he can definitely tell the difference between sucrose and HFSC and has to use different amounts of insulin for each.

    It's nice to know someone else read that article. Sure was an eye opener for me!

    Lisa
  • scouty
    scouty Member Posts: 1,965 Member
    maglets said:

    thank you Lisa
    nice to hear your clear calm voice.....

    and your thread was nicely introduced too

    tell me you aren't really cutting grass/////hahahah we don't have any yet

    good to see you kiddo

    best regards, mags

    Hey Sweetie!!!
    It's always great to see you on here too Mags!!! Been mowing since mid March. Heck I'm eating fresh lettuce, spinach, and brocolli from my spring garden now (I planted it in early March). My asparagus patch is getting ready to peak and I'll have raspberries from my first harvest in 2 weeks (I'll get another in August)!!!

    There are advantages to living here in North Carolina but the storms and tornadoes this year have been much more frequent and intense than usual. Nothing like what hit Alabama though! As I said on another thread, Mama Nature seems really pissed the last couple of years.

    Hugs to you sweetie and I bet you go to bed early again tonight. Did you enjoy all the wedding stuff? I sure hope William got more from his Mom than from his Dad. He obviously did in the looks department...oops that wasn't nice.

    Mucho love my friend and thanks for the nice words about the thread. I do get tired of the nasty tones and remarks some use just because others do things differently then they do.

    Mucho love and have a great weekend!
    Lisa
  • maglets
    maglets Member Posts: 2,576 Member
    scouty said:

    Hey Sweetie!!!
    It's always great to see you on here too Mags!!! Been mowing since mid March. Heck I'm eating fresh lettuce, spinach, and brocolli from my spring garden now (I planted it in early March). My asparagus patch is getting ready to peak and I'll have raspberries from my first harvest in 2 weeks (I'll get another in August)!!!

    There are advantages to living here in North Carolina but the storms and tornadoes this year have been much more frequent and intense than usual. Nothing like what hit Alabama though! As I said on another thread, Mama Nature seems really pissed the last couple of years.

    Hugs to you sweetie and I bet you go to bed early again tonight. Did you enjoy all the wedding stuff? I sure hope William got more from his Mom than from his Dad. He obviously did in the looks department...oops that wasn't nice.

    Mucho love my friend and thanks for the nice words about the thread. I do get tired of the nasty tones and remarks some use just because others do things differently then they do.

    Mucho love and have a great weekend!
    Lisa

    ahhh Lisa
    what a thrill for you to have fresh greens.....there is nothing better

    we planted...literally scratched away the snow a couple of weeks ago....we have germination...maybe 1/2 inch....

    yes the weather in US has been of great concern....so many deaths...I cannot believe how violent it has been....hopes and wishes and prayers to all the tornado areas

    Lisa....you have done such a great job....I so admire your resolve...hats off to you my friend....

    yes there are a million ways to do this

    mags
  • RickMurtagh
    RickMurtagh Member Posts: 587 Member
    scouty said:

    Hey Sweetie!!!
    It's always great to see you on here too Mags!!! Been mowing since mid March. Heck I'm eating fresh lettuce, spinach, and brocolli from my spring garden now (I planted it in early March). My asparagus patch is getting ready to peak and I'll have raspberries from my first harvest in 2 weeks (I'll get another in August)!!!

    There are advantages to living here in North Carolina but the storms and tornadoes this year have been much more frequent and intense than usual. Nothing like what hit Alabama though! As I said on another thread, Mama Nature seems really pissed the last couple of years.

    Hugs to you sweetie and I bet you go to bed early again tonight. Did you enjoy all the wedding stuff? I sure hope William got more from his Mom than from his Dad. He obviously did in the looks department...oops that wasn't nice.

    Mucho love my friend and thanks for the nice words about the thread. I do get tired of the nasty tones and remarks some use just because others do things differently then they do.

    Mucho love and have a great weekend!
    Lisa

    I just want to say
    I just want to say grrrrr, /$&@!?, crap, bah!

    Sorry just stubbed my toe.

    Thanks for the info Lisa. I love it when the info swell thought out, easy to understand (I always had problems with the big words) and long enough to be thorough without being boring or losing me.

    Have a great day!

    Rick
  • smokeyjoe
    smokeyjoe Member Posts: 1,425 Member
    scouty said:

    Direct quote from Taubes article
    Greg, Yes they do both say that there is no difference between the 2 but that's mostly because both are equally bad for you. Below is the actual qoote from the article (my printed out page 3).

    "Refined sugar (that is, sucrose) is made up of a molecule of the carbohydrate glucose, bonded to a molecule of the carbohydrate fructose — a 50-50 mixture of the two. The fructose, which is almost twice as sweet as glucose, is what distinguishes sugar from other carbohydrate-rich foods like bread or potatoes that break down upon digestion to glucose alone. The more fructose in a substance, the sweeter it will be. High-fructose corn syrup, as it is most commonly consumed, is 55 percent fructose, and the remaining 45 percent is nearly all glucose."

    I have a brother who is a type 1 diabetic (compliments of agent orange from the Vietnam War regretfully) and he says he can definitely tell the difference between sucrose and HFSC and has to use different amounts of insulin for each.

    It's nice to know someone else read that article. Sure was an eye opener for me!

    Lisa

    Ahh, Lisa I love seeing your
    Ahh, Lisa I love seeing your posts, thank you. You're a breath of fresh air!!!!
  • Kathleen808
    Kathleen808 Member Posts: 2,342 Member
    Lisa
    Lisa,
    I am so grateful for you and your willingness to continue to share. Thank you!!

    Aloha,
    Kathleen
  • Betsydoglover
    Betsydoglover Member Posts: 1,248 Member
    Liver and Sugar
    Nice explanation, Lisa. I appreciate a nice physiology based explanation.

    Don't slam me, but it is so much better than the "sugar feed cancer" line based upon how the PET scan works. I too try and avoid sugar, but I don't freak out about it and my liver (so far, knock on wood) seems to fine.

    Wish I had your garden, but surrounded by woods here it's just not possible.

    Take care,
    Betsy
  • scouty
    scouty Member Posts: 1,965 Member

    Lisa
    Lisa,
    I am so grateful for you and your willingness to continue to share. Thank you!!

    Aloha,
    Kathleen

    Hey Kathleen!
    Thanks so much for your kind words. It does get tough sometimes, especially lately with all the call out threads. But I made a promise to a few buddies, who are upstairs saving me a seat, that I would stay and try to help people so I do.

    I think of you and **** all the time! Please know that I continue to send my bestest healing thoughts your way!

    Love Lisa
  • SisterSledge
    SisterSledge Member Posts: 332 Member
    Milk Thistle?
    Hi Lisa,

    I appreciate the info you've provided so clearly here and I will study further on liver health as it is a top priority for me with liver mets and ongoing chemo. I would like to know more about milk thistle and how it may interact with other drugs, especially chemo efficacy:

    http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/milk-thistle-000266.htm
    Milk Thistle


    Milk thistle may interfere with the following medications, because both milk thistle and these medications are broken down by the same liver enzymes:

    * Allergy drugs -- such as fexofenadine (Allegra)
    * Drugs for high cholesterol -- including statins such as lovastatin (Mevacor, Altocor)
    * Anti-anxiety drugs -- including alprazolam (Xanax), diazepam (Valium), and lorazepam (Ativan)
    * Antiplatelet and anticoagulant drugs (blood thinners) -- including clopidogrel (Plavix) and warfarin (Coumadin)
    * Some cancer drugs
  • scouty
    scouty Member Posts: 1,965 Member

    Liver and Sugar
    Nice explanation, Lisa. I appreciate a nice physiology based explanation.

    Don't slam me, but it is so much better than the "sugar feed cancer" line based upon how the PET scan works. I too try and avoid sugar, but I don't freak out about it and my liver (so far, knock on wood) seems to fine.

    Wish I had your garden, but surrounded by woods here it's just not possible.

    Take care,
    Betsy

    Hi Betsy!
    Nice photo with your daughter. Was that Turkey day? I wish you lived closer and I would share my lettuces with you. It's all coming in now so my neighbors are reaping the benefits.

    I'm not gonna slam you, you're my friend! But there is some fairly recent new research that is pretty compelling on how sugar then insulin affects cancer and cancer metastasis especially in the cancers whose tissues contain or are surrounded by fat: the breast, ovaries, prostate, colon, and lymphatic system. It isn't sugar per se, it's the bodies response to the sugar when the pancreas releases insulin to counteract it. I'll quote the article again from a later paragragh:

    "As it was explained to me by Craig Thompson, who has done much of this research and is now president of Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York, the cells of many human cancers come to depend on insulin to provide the fuel (blood sugar) and materials they need to grow and multiply. Insulin and insulin-like growth factor (and related growth factors) also provide the signal, in effect, to do it. The more insulin, the better they do. Some cancers develop mutations that serve the purpose of increasing the influence of insulin on the cell; others take advantage of the elevated insulin levels that are common to metabolic syndrome, obesity and type 2 diabetes. Some do both. Thompson believes that many pre-cancerous cells would never acquire the mutations that turn them into malignant tumors if they weren’t being driven by insulin to take up more and more blood sugar and metabolize it.

    What these researchers call elevated insulin (or insulin-like growth factor) signaling appears to be a necessary step in many human cancers, particularly cancers like breast and colon cancer. Lewis Cantley, director of the Cancer Center at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center at Harvard Medical School, says that up to 80 percent of all human cancers are driven by either mutations or environmental factors that work to enhance or mimic the effect of insulin on the incipient tumor cells."

    I'll find the article and bump it so you can read it. I had to print it out and probably have reread it 5 or 6 times, there is so much good info in it. Let me know what you think of it. The whole blood sugar/insulin release process is really interesting to me because most of the foods on the alkaline side of the alkaline vs acid diet also happen to be the same foods that are on the low end of the gylcemic index that diabetics are supposed to follow. Oh and my first reaction was much like Rick's above, oh SHEET, CRAP, DANGIT!!!!!

    Seems like the science may have always been there, it just that the scientists are just catching up with it and figuring it all out.

    Hope all is good on your front and that your pups are good!

    Love, Lisa
  • PGLGreg
    PGLGreg Member Posts: 731
    scouty said:

    Hi Betsy!
    Nice photo with your daughter. Was that Turkey day? I wish you lived closer and I would share my lettuces with you. It's all coming in now so my neighbors are reaping the benefits.

    I'm not gonna slam you, you're my friend! But there is some fairly recent new research that is pretty compelling on how sugar then insulin affects cancer and cancer metastasis especially in the cancers whose tissues contain or are surrounded by fat: the breast, ovaries, prostate, colon, and lymphatic system. It isn't sugar per se, it's the bodies response to the sugar when the pancreas releases insulin to counteract it. I'll quote the article again from a later paragragh:

    "As it was explained to me by Craig Thompson, who has done much of this research and is now president of Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York, the cells of many human cancers come to depend on insulin to provide the fuel (blood sugar) and materials they need to grow and multiply. Insulin and insulin-like growth factor (and related growth factors) also provide the signal, in effect, to do it. The more insulin, the better they do. Some cancers develop mutations that serve the purpose of increasing the influence of insulin on the cell; others take advantage of the elevated insulin levels that are common to metabolic syndrome, obesity and type 2 diabetes. Some do both. Thompson believes that many pre-cancerous cells would never acquire the mutations that turn them into malignant tumors if they weren’t being driven by insulin to take up more and more blood sugar and metabolize it.

    What these researchers call elevated insulin (or insulin-like growth factor) signaling appears to be a necessary step in many human cancers, particularly cancers like breast and colon cancer. Lewis Cantley, director of the Cancer Center at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center at Harvard Medical School, says that up to 80 percent of all human cancers are driven by either mutations or environmental factors that work to enhance or mimic the effect of insulin on the incipient tumor cells."

    I'll find the article and bump it so you can read it. I had to print it out and probably have reread it 5 or 6 times, there is so much good info in it. Let me know what you think of it. The whole blood sugar/insulin release process is really interesting to me because most of the foods on the alkaline side of the alkaline vs acid diet also happen to be the same foods that are on the low end of the gylcemic index that diabetics are supposed to follow. Oh and my first reaction was much like Rick's above, oh SHEET, CRAP, DANGIT!!!!!

    Seems like the science may have always been there, it just that the scientists are just catching up with it and figuring it all out.

    Hope all is good on your front and that your pups are good!

    Love, Lisa

    fructose again
    Those who don't follow the Colon Club may not have seen a comment from a knowledgeable observer, jscho, to the effect that fructose is probably not a worry for those concerned about developing cancer, but is likely a problem for those who already have it: Re: FRUCTOSE:Role in CR cancer causation & met. spread

    --Greg
  • pete43lost_at_sea
    pete43lost_at_sea Member Posts: 3,900 Member

    Milk Thistle?
    Hi Lisa,

    I appreciate the info you've provided so clearly here and I will study further on liver health as it is a top priority for me with liver mets and ongoing chemo. I would like to know more about milk thistle and how it may interact with other drugs, especially chemo efficacy:

    http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/milk-thistle-000266.htm
    Milk Thistle


    Milk thistle may interfere with the following medications, because both milk thistle and these medications are broken down by the same liver enzymes:

    * Allergy drugs -- such as fexofenadine (Allegra)
    * Drugs for high cholesterol -- including statins such as lovastatin (Mevacor, Altocor)
    * Anti-anxiety drugs -- including alprazolam (Xanax), diazepam (Valium), and lorazepam (Ativan)
    * Antiplatelet and anticoagulant drugs (blood thinners) -- including clopidogrel (Plavix) and warfarin (Coumadin)
    * Some cancer drugs

    thanks janine
    i am glad i did not take milk thistle around chemo days

    this is why i would have prefered an intergative oncologist, for these specific interactions.

    even my naturopath's did not checkout all my possible onc related meds.
    i told them about folfox and that was it.

    i really need to find a pharmacological oncologist like scouty had. tried but could not find one. i had an excellent tradiitional onc, so i would not have changed anyway.

    never mind, i have made it so far. but i was on ativan. only took about 6 of them over 6 months.

    look up liver health or liver doctor , her name is sandra cabot. her book on liver and bowel is my bible and is a good starting point.

    pete
  • pete43lost_at_sea
    pete43lost_at_sea Member Posts: 3,900 Member
    PGLGreg said:

    fructose again
    Those who don't follow the Colon Club may not have seen a comment from a knowledgeable observer, jscho, to the effect that fructose is probably not a worry for those concerned about developing cancer, but is likely a problem for those who already have it: Re: FRUCTOSE:Role in CR cancer causation & met. spread

    --Greg

    thanks greg
    hi greg,

    the link is great, backups up my naturopath diet perfectly.
    its so good to know i am on the right track for me and not alone on these dietary
    endevours.

    pete
  • thanks janine
    i am glad i did not take milk thistle around chemo days

    this is why i would have prefered an intergative oncologist, for these specific interactions.

    even my naturopath's did not checkout all my possible onc related meds.
    i told them about folfox and that was it.

    i really need to find a pharmacological oncologist like scouty had. tried but could not find one. i had an excellent tradiitional onc, so i would not have changed anyway.

    never mind, i have made it so far. but i was on ativan. only took about 6 of them over 6 months.

    look up liver health or liver doctor , her name is sandra cabot. her book on liver and bowel is my bible and is a good starting point.

    pete

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