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Happy Halloween!

soccerfreaks's picture
soccerfreaks
Posts: 2801
Joined: Sep 2006

LITTLE ORPHANT ANNIE

by: James Whitcomb Riley (1849-1916)

INSCRIBED WITH ALL FAITH AND AFFECTION

To all the little children: -- The happy ones; and sad ones;
The sober and the silent ones; the boisterous and glad ones;
The good ones -- Yes, the good ones, too; and all the lovely bad ones.

LITTLE Orphant Annie's come to our house to stay,
An' wash the cups an' saucers up, an' brush the crumbs away,
An' shoo the chickens off the porch, an' dust the hearth, an' sweep,
An' make the fire, an' bake the bread, an' earn her board-an'-keep;
An' all us other childern, when the supper-things is done,
We set around the kitchen fire an' has the mostest fun
A-list'nin' to the witch-tales 'at Annie tells about,
An' the Gobble-uns 'at gits you
Ef you
Don't
Watch
Out!

Wunst they wuz a little boy wouldn't say his prayers,--
An' when he went to bed at night, away up-stairs,
His Mammy heerd him holler, an' his Daddy heerd him bawl,
An' when they turn't the kivvers down, he wuzn't there at all!
An' they seeked him in the rafter-room, an' cubby-hole, an' press,
An' seeked him up the chimbly-flue, an' ever'-wheres, I guess;
But all they ever found wuz thist his pants an' roundabout:--
An' the Gobble-uns 'll git you
Ef you
Don't
Watch
Out!

An' one time a little girl 'ud allus laugh an' grin,
An' make fun of ever' one, an' all her blood-an'-kin;
An' wunst, when they was "company," an' ole folks wuz there,
She mocked 'em an' shocked 'em, an' said she didn't care!
An' thist as she kicked her heels, an' turn't to run an' hide,
They wuz two great big Black Things a-standin' by her side,
An' they snatched her through the ceilin' 'fore she knowed what she's about!
An' the Gobble-uns 'll git you
Ef you
Don't
Watch
Out!

An' little Orphant Annie says, when the blaze is blue,
An' the lamp-wick sputters, an' the wind goes woo-oo!
An' you hear the crickets quit, an' the moon is gray,
An' the lightnin'-bugs in dew is all squenched away,--
You better mind yer parunts, an' yer teachurs fond an' dear,
An' churish them 'at loves you, an' dry the orphant's tear,
An' he'p the pore an' needy ones 'at clusters all about,
Er the Gobble-uns 'll git you
Ef you
Don't
Watch
Out!

soccerfreaks's picture
soccerfreaks
Posts: 2801
Joined: Sep 2006

There are some, particularly in the Christian community, who find Halloween to be akin to devil worship and, in fact, do not allow their children to participate in trick or treating, not because it is dangerous, not because it seems like begging, but because they think it represents evil. I know such people personally.

Sadly, they have not done their homework. While it may be crassly commercial these days, its origins are within religious boundaries, its origins are in the celebration of saints and souls. Halloween is a derivation of what was once called All Hallow's Eve, sort of like Christmas Eve. It was meant as an evening of celebration (or reverence) in anticipation of the next day: All Saints Day (or, in some cultures, I have recently learned, All Souls Day). The masks that are now an obvious part of the tradition were originally meant to ward off evil spirits.

How ironic, then, that some find this holiday to be evil. It is another example to me of how people with little real knowledge distort things to fit their needs, and I am not writing so much about the believers (although you would hope they would try to keep up with the facts) but those who make such pronouncements to their 'sheep'. Shame on them.

In any event, my dad used to read the poem posted above to us every Halloween before we went out, back when it was apparently clearly safe to do so.

Take care, one and all,

Joe

Hondo's picture
Hondo
Posts: 5717
Joined: Apr 2009

Halloween is nothing more then dark age mythology that begin with the ancient pagan Celtic, just another carry over from the pagan religion in to the Church during the Dark ages, one of many. Nothing about it gives any glory to God so why would a Christian want anything to do with it. I have no problems with people doing it if they want to, however I would not dress up any of my kids as a devil

http://godkind.org/pagan-holidays.html
http://www.history.com/topics/halloween

Take Care
╠╣ONDO

soccerfreaks's picture
soccerfreaks
Posts: 2801
Joined: Sep 2006

From wikipedia:

Halloween is also thought to have been heavily influenced by the Christian holy days of All Saints' Day (also known as Hallowmas, All Hallows, and Hallowtide) and All Souls' Day.[13] Falling on November 1 and 2 respectively, collectively they were a time for honoring the saints and praying for the recently departed who had yet to reach heaven. By the end of the 12th century they had become days of holy obligation across Europe and involved such traditions as ringing bells for the souls in purgatory and "souling", the custom of baking bread or soul cakes for "all crysten [ christened ] souls".[14] It was traditionally believed that the souls of the departed wandered the earth until All Saints' Day, and All Hallows' Eve provided one last chance for the dead to gain vengeance on their enemies before moving onto the next world.[15] To avoid being recognised by a soul, Christians would wear masques and costumes to disguise themselves, following the lighted candles set by others to guide their travel for worship the next day.[15] Today, this practice has been perpetuated through trick-or-treating.[15]

In Britain the rituals of Hallowtide and Halloween came under attack during the Reformation as Protestants denounced purgatory as a "popish" doctrine incompatible with the notion of predestination.[13] In addition the increasing popularity of Guy Fawkes Night (5th November) from 1605 on saw Halloween become eclipsed in Britain with the notable exception of Scotland.[16] There and in Ireland, they had been celebrating Samhain and Halloween since the early Middle Ages,[10] and the kirk took a more pragmatic approach towards Halloween, viewing it as important to the life cycle and rites of passage of local communities and thus ensuring its survival in the country.[17] The Puritans of New England, for example, maintained strong opposition to the holiday[18] and it was not until the mass Irish and Scottish immigration during the 19th century that the holiday was introduced to the continent in earnest.[18] Initially confined to the immigrant communities during the mid-19th century, it was gradually assimilated into mainstream society and by the first decade of the 20th century it was being celebrated coast to coast by people of all social, racial and religious backgrounds.[19]

dasspears
Posts: 233
Joined: Feb 2009

Everyone needs some harmless fun in life!

soccerfreaks's picture
soccerfreaks
Posts: 2801
Joined: Sep 2006

Have to wonder if our anti-pagan friend celebrates Christmas with a tree and Santa Claus since those traditions also pre-date christian ritual and were incorporated by the church?

Take care,

Joe

Hondo's picture
Hondo
Posts: 5717
Joined: Apr 2009

I see nothing wrong with doing good on any holiday. Jesus was not born on December 25th but he was borne and being no one really knows the correct date why not celebrate it at the same time the rest of the world does, tree and all but no Satan Claus or was that Santa Claus. Funny how just one little letter can change the meaning of a word.

My Son had a friend who Father did not let them celebrate anything not even there birthday, the boy always loved to stay at our house especially on the holidays. But we had to be carful not to break any of his Father rules while he was staying with us, or he would not let him come back.

While I was working in Africa what was strange to me was that some of the Muslim celebrated Christmas and some of the Christian kept some of the Muslim holidays, what a working relationship, they get more days off from work that way.

Anything can be taking to the limit all depends on whose limit it is. I always taught my children to respect everyone belief no matter how strange it seamed to them.

╠╣ONDO

soccerfreaks's picture
soccerfreaks
Posts: 2801
Joined: Sep 2006

Someone didn't like what you said (other than me, of course), and so you change direction and try to appease them while not answering the hypocrisy of celebrating Christmas while not celebrating Halloween, both holidays derived from so-called pagan traditions.

You are, frankly, full of it.

laurettas
Posts: 372
Joined: May 2011

Here is another explanation of the origins of Halloween, similar to the Wikipedia but with a few differences:

Halloween:
The Real Story!
Father Augustine Thompson, O.P.,
We’ve all heard the allegations. Halloween is a pagan rite dating
back to some pre-Christian festival among the Celtic Druids that
escaped Church suppression. Even today modern pagans and
witches continue to celebrate this ancient festival. If you let your
kids go trick-or-treating, they will be worshiping the devil and
pagan gods.
Nothing could be further from the truth. The origins of Halloween
are, in fact, very Christian and rather American. Halloween falls
on Oct. 31 because of a pope, and its observances are the result
of medieval Catholic piety.
It’s true that the ancient Celts of Ireland and Britain celebrated a minor festival on Oct.
31 — as they did on the last day of most other months of the year. However, Halloween
falls on the last day of October because the Feast of All Saints or "All Hallows" falls on
Nov. 1. The feast in honor of all the saints in heaven used to be celebrated on May 13,
but Pope Gregory III (d. 741) moved it to Nov. 1, the dedication day of All Saints Chapel
in St. Peter’s at Rome. Later, in the 840s, Pope Gregory IV commanded that All Saints
be observed everywhere. And so the holy day spread to Ireland. The day before was the
feast’s evening vigil, "All Hallows Even" or "Hallowe’en." In those days, Halloween didn’t
have any special significance for Christians or for long-dead Celtic pagans.
In 998, St. Odilo, the abbot of the powerful monastery of Cluny in Southern France,
added a celebration on Nov. 2. This was a day of prayer for the souls of all the faithful
departed. This feast, called All Souls Day, spread from France to the rest of Europe.
So now the Church had feasts for all those in heaven and all those in purgatory? What
about those in the other place? It seems Irish Catholic peasants wondered about the
unfortunate souls in hell. After all, if the souls in hell are left out when we celebrate those
in heaven and purgatory, they might be unhappy enough to cause trouble. So it became
customary to bang pots and pans on All Hallows Even to let the damned know they were
not forgotten. Thus, in Ireland, at least, all the dead came to be remembered — even if
the clergy were not terribly sympathetic to Halloween and never allowed All Damned
Day into the Church calendar.
PO Box 271227 + Flower Mound, TX + 75027 + 1-800-803-0118 + www.dritaly.com
But that still isn’t our celebration of Halloween. Our traditions on this holiday centers
around dressing up in fanciful costumes, which isn’t Irish at all. Rather, this custom
arose in France during the 14th and 15th centuries. Late medieval Europe was hit by
repeated outbreaks of the bubonic plague — the Black Death — and she lost about half
her population. It is not surprising that Catholics became more concerned about the
afterlife. More Masses were said on All Souls’ Day, and artistic representations were
devised to remind everyone of their own mortality.
We know these representations as the "Dance Macabre" or
"Dance of Death," which was commonly painted on the walls of
cemeteries and shows the devil leading a daisy chain of people —
popes, kings, ladies, knights, monks, peasants, lepers, etc. — into
the tomb. Sometimes the dance was presented on All Souls’ Day
itself as a living tableau with people dressed up in the garb of
various states of life. But the French dressed up on All Souls, not
Halloween; and the Irish, who had Halloween, did not dress up.
How the two became mingled probably happened first in the
British colonies of North America during the 1700s when Irish and French Catholics
began to intermarry. The Irish focus on hell gave the French masquerades and even
more macabre twist.
But, as every young ghoul knows, dressing up isn’t the point; the point is getting as
many goodies as possible. Where on earth did "trick or treat" come in?
"Trick or treat" is perhaps the oddest and most American addition to Halloween, and is
the unwilling contribution of English Catholics.
During the penal period of the 1500s to the 1700s in England, Catholics had no legal
rights. They could not hold office and were subject to fines, jail and heavy taxes. It was a
capital offense to say Mass, and hundreds of priests were martyred.
Occasionally, English Catholics resisted, sometimes foolishly. One of the most foolish
acts of resistance was a plot to blow up the Protestant King James I and his Parliament
with gunpowder. This was supposed to trigger a Catholic uprising against their
oppressors. The ill-conceived Gunpowder Plot was foiled on Nov. 5, 1605, when the
man guarding the gunpowder, a reckless convert named Guy Fawkes, was captured and
arrested. He was hanged; the plot fizzled.
Nov. 5, Guy Fawkes’ Day, became a great celebration in England, and so it remains.
During the penal periods, bands of revelers would put on masks and visit local Catholics
in the dead of night, demanding beer and cakes for their celebration: trick or treat!
Guy Fawkes’ Day arrived in the American colonies with the first English settlers. But, buy
the time of the American Revolution, old King James and Guy Fawkes had pretty much
been forgotten. Trick or treat, though, was too much fun to give up, so eventually it
moved to Oct. 31, the day of the Irish-French masquerade. And in America, trick or treat
wasn’t limited to Catholics.
PO Box 271227 + Flower Mound, TX + 75027 + 1-800-803-0118 + www.dritaly.com
The mixture of various immigrant traditions we know as Halloween had become a fixture
in the Unites States by the early 1800s. To this day, it remains unknown in Europe, even
in the countries from which some of the customs originated.
But what about witches? Well, they are one of the last
additions. The greeting card industry added them in the
late 1800s. Halloween was already "ghoulish," so why
not give witches a place on greeting cards? The
Halloween card failed (although it has seen a recent
resurgence in popularity), but the witches stayed. So,
too, in the late 1800s, ill-informed folklorists introduced
the jack-o’-lantern. They thought that Halloween was
druidic and pagan in origin. Lamps made from turnips
(not pumpkins) had been part of ancient Celtic harvest
festivals, so they were translated to the American Halloween celebration.
The next time someone claims that Halloween is a cruel trick to lure your children into
devil worship, I suggest you tell them the real origin of All Hallows Even and invite them
to discover its Christian significance, along with the two greater and more important
Catholic festivals that follow it.

dasspears
Posts: 233
Joined: Feb 2009

I really enjoyed reading this! Thanks for posting it.

laurettas
Posts: 372
Joined: May 2011

Sorry for the "ads" in the middle--teach me to not carefully read my copy and paste!

dasspears
Posts: 233
Joined: Feb 2009

I really enjoyed reading this! Thanks for posting it.

soccerfreaks's picture
soccerfreaks
Posts: 2801
Joined: Sep 2006

Thanks for a most enlightening response.

Take care,

Joe

Hondo's picture
Hondo
Posts: 5717
Joined: Apr 2009

Joe you of all people should know that I don’t appease to anyone. I will tell you what I believe and don’t really care if someone agrees with that or not because we all have our opinion. Not to say you are wrong and I am right or you are right and I am wrong, it is how you believe.

A holiday may be pagan and not Christian but I see nothing wrong with keeping it as long as you push the pagan out of it and give God glory. Like I said on Christmas while the world is keeping the holiday I see nothing wrong with giving glory to God as I know he was born on someday and not on Dec 25th. I can keep any day as his birthday but why not keep it on that day, nothing appeasing to anyone there.

On Halloween I don’t take part in it but my children do go out side and hand out candy along with bible scripture. Again nothing wrong with doing good even on a pagan holiday.

A far as how many people read the stuff we hand out is not my concern; I am doing Gods will in letting people know about Him even on a pagan holiday. Again nothing wrong with doing good no matter what day it is. I find that there is always a way to take something evil and turn it to the glory of God no matter how many people agree with it or not.

╠╣ONDO

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mariam_11_09
Posts: 693
Joined: Nov 2009

Muslims in Africa celebrate Christmas in a religous sense because they recognise that Jesus was a prophet send by Allah and appreciate his teachings not because they wanted a day off work.

I love Christmas in Agadez (a muslim city in Niger). There is no gift giving perhaps because of povery but many, many Muslim people descend on the Togolese Catholic church behind our house for mass at midnight and/or Christmas morning followed by dancing and food. The Muslims celebrate it with the same joy that they do Eid Al Fitr and Eid Al Adha.

I can understand Christians celebrating Eid Al Adha (Festival of Sacrifice) which is about Ibrahim attempting to sacrifice his son when Allah stopped him. This celebration is about sacrifice and surrending to Allah. Eid Al Fitr is celebrating the end of Ramadan and really if you are in a Muslim majority it is difficult not to get caught up in this celebration.

But I agree, Halloween is a time for just having fun! It brings out creativity, resourcefulness, generosity, kids get to meet their neighbours and just have a great time. My daughter loves it from designing and making her costume to collecting candy with her friends.

Buckwirth's picture
Buckwirth
Posts: 1272
Joined: Jun 2010

Just treat it as secular. Fourth of July, memorial day..

I find it funny that the religious right pushed to move DST back a week so the kids could go out in daylight (they just go out later).

It's fun, have fun with it.

Hondo's picture
Hondo
Posts: 5717
Joined: Apr 2009

I understand your point but I don’t believe we make it pagan, it is pagan because it came from a form of a pagan religion. Back in the dark ages it crept into the Church as did a lot of other pagan religious beliefs that are still kept today.

I am all for fun I just rather my fun without the Devil somewhere in it, same as you would without something religious in it, I am sure you can agree with that.

╠╣ONDO

laurettas
Posts: 372
Joined: May 2011

Hondo, it doesn't matter if something had pagan origins. What matters is what it has become. St. Paul engaged the pagans in Greece and showed them the elements of truth in their pagan beliefs. We can take something pagan and reveal the hidden truths contained in it. The Christmas tree may have pagan origins but we can explain the Christian truths contained in it--the lights as the light of Christ; the evergreen as a sign of eternity, etc. etc. I think a lot of the misunderstanding comes from an ignorance of Christian history. The article I posted was an in depth explanation of the Christian sources of the Halloween customs. Most people have no idea of those historical facts.

soccerfreaks's picture
soccerfreaks
Posts: 2801
Joined: Sep 2006

And appropriately directed,

Take care,

Joe

Hondo's picture
Hondo
Posts: 5717
Joined: Apr 2009

To me things like this do matter, it may be just a opinion or a belief but I find everything I need in Gods Holy Word. There may be something good in the evil but why go there unless you can turn what is evil to do good for God. I don’t like Halloween that is my opinion because I don’t believe dressing up as something evil is good or can be, don’t make sense to me and I see no fun in it. So I can shut my doors and let it go by or I can try to do something good on an evil day. That is what we do by handing out tracks or scripture pamphlets that help people who may not know God to atlease know about him. I know it is all a matter of what you believe, for me the only truth there is, is in God and his Holy Word everything else apart from that is only a lie.

Thanks you for your comments, it is good to be able to have a dialogue with others on a subject with out the character assassination that some people have at others when they don’t agree with it.

Hondo

Buckwirth's picture
Buckwirth
Posts: 1272
Joined: Jun 2010

The history she posted?

Dress up as Robin Hood, or a cowboy, and quit making the innocent evil. Next we know someone is going to start in about the war on Christmas...

Hondo's picture
Hondo
Posts: 5717
Joined: Apr 2009

That would be like an agnostic atheist going to church dress as a Priest. Let me know when you will be at Church dress as the Priest and I will be there dress as Robin Hood.

Innocent evil "that is a Oxymoron for sure".

Hondo

Buckwirth's picture
Buckwirth
Posts: 1272
Joined: Jun 2010

and an atheist, it would be quite easy.

And the sentence was "making the innocent evil" not an oxymoron, just moronic.

laurettas
Posts: 372
Joined: May 2011

Interesting Blake. Care to expound on that--Reverend and atheist? I am intrigued!

laurettas
Posts: 372
Joined: May 2011

What is "God's Holy Word", Hondo? Are you limiting the meaning to just Scripture? God's Word is ultimately Christ, His Son, the Word Made Flesh. And Christ's body is the Church. God speaks to us in many ways. Through the Scriptures, through the oral Tradition that has been handed down from generation to generation and through the world which He created.

The day of Halloween is not evil. What some people do to celebrate the day can be evil but the day and the true meaning(see my earlier post) are not evil. Not all that is pagan is evil. The Greeks were pagan but they had profound insights into many things. I was so impressed with their wisdom when I finally read some of their literature.

Why does one need to think that all costumes are evil? My grandkids dressed up as a cow, TowMater from Cars, a pumpkin princess, a mermaid and Indiana Jones. Don't see a lot of evil in those characters. They are after the candy--well, and the girls love to dress up in beautiful clothes!

I agree that we should take all things and transform them into good. That is what incorporating some of the former pagan feast days into Christian life does. It replaces the wrong understanding with the truth that comes from God. If you hold yourself above and separate from others, you cannot convert them. You need to walk with them and come to know them and seek to understand them and share your love with them if you want them to be open to what you are trying to reveal to them. If we went to all other cultures and told them how sinful and evil and wrong their traditions are, we would not get far. We need to walk with people and slowly reveal to them the God who is love. And thank you, too, for the discussion. We have much to learn from each other. Peace to you.

Hondo's picture
Hondo
Posts: 5717
Joined: Apr 2009

Yes to me God word is the Bible only, there are good books out there and sometime special people who have been giving the gift of prophecies and are lead by his Hold Spirit. But even thing they teach and say needs to be checked by the Bible as it says in Isaiah 8:20 there is no light in it if it does not agree with scripture.

There are some Tradition that are good I have no problems with that, but if they go against what the Bible teaches then there is some wrong with the Tradition; again Isaiah 8:20.

On Costumes I don’t believe I say anything about them being Evil. I dress up as a Roman solder sometimes during a Christmas play if I am ask to be part of it. What I did say was I would not dress up any of my children as a devil.

You are correct in saying we need to meet people where they are and not holding ourselves above them, that is what Christ did, he ate with the publicans and sinners and not with the Religious leaders of the day. He even said Lk:5:32: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. I don’t believe by dressing ourselves up as a devil will bring anyone to Christ, but it might by handing out things that will tell them about how much God loves them.

I am a lot of friends who are all different types of religions, I don’t force what I believe on them and they don’t force what they believe on me. But we do understand each other and except each other for what and who we are.

Thanks
Hondo

mariam_11_09's picture
mariam_11_09
Posts: 693
Joined: Nov 2009

Hondo, I am curious. Just what makes Halloween so evil? What do you determine evil to be? Perhaps you can explain to us.

Hondo's picture
Hondo
Posts: 5717
Joined: Apr 2009

I would be glad to just need some time as I have a plat full at the time. Give me a few days .

Thanks
Hondo

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