Happy Halloween!

LITTLE ORPHANT ANNIE

by: James Whitcomb Riley (1849-1916)

INSCRIBED WITH ALL FAITH AND AFFECTION

To all the little children: -- The happy ones; and sad ones;
The sober and the silent ones; the boisterous and glad ones;
The good ones -- Yes, the good ones, too; and all the lovely bad ones.

LITTLE Orphant Annie's come to our house to stay,
An' wash the cups an' saucers up, an' brush the crumbs away,
An' shoo the chickens off the porch, an' dust the hearth, an' sweep,
An' make the fire, an' bake the bread, an' earn her board-an'-keep;
An' all us other childern, when the supper-things is done,
We set around the kitchen fire an' has the mostest fun
A-list'nin' to the witch-tales 'at Annie tells about,
An' the Gobble-uns 'at gits you
Ef you
Don't
Watch
Out!

Wunst they wuz a little boy wouldn't say his prayers,--
An' when he went to bed at night, away up-stairs,
His Mammy heerd him holler, an' his Daddy heerd him bawl,
An' when they turn't the kivvers down, he wuzn't there at all!
An' they seeked him in the rafter-room, an' cubby-hole, an' press,
An' seeked him up the chimbly-flue, an' ever'-wheres, I guess;
But all they ever found wuz thist his pants an' roundabout:--
An' the Gobble-uns 'll git you
Ef you
Don't
Watch
Out!

An' one time a little girl 'ud allus laugh an' grin,
An' make fun of ever' one, an' all her blood-an'-kin;
An' wunst, when they was "company," an' ole folks wuz there,
She mocked 'em an' shocked 'em, an' said she didn't care!
An' thist as she kicked her heels, an' turn't to run an' hide,
They wuz two great big Black Things a-standin' by her side,
An' they snatched her through the ceilin' 'fore she knowed what she's about!
An' the Gobble-uns 'll git you
Ef you
Don't
Watch
Out!

An' little Orphant Annie says, when the blaze is blue,
An' the lamp-wick sputters, an' the wind goes woo-oo!
An' you hear the crickets quit, an' the moon is gray,
An' the lightnin'-bugs in dew is all squenched away,--
You better mind yer parunts, an' yer teachurs fond an' dear,
An' churish them 'at loves you, an' dry the orphant's tear,
An' he'p the pore an' needy ones 'at clusters all about,
Er the Gobble-uns 'll git you
Ef you
Don't
Watch
Out!
«1

Comments

  • soccerfreaks
    soccerfreaks Member Posts: 2,788 Member
    distortions
    There are some, particularly in the Christian community, who find Halloween to be akin to devil worship and, in fact, do not allow their children to participate in trick or treating, not because it is dangerous, not because it seems like begging, but because they think it represents evil. I know such people personally.

    Sadly, they have not done their homework. While it may be crassly commercial these days, its origins are within religious boundaries, its origins are in the celebration of saints and souls. Halloween is a derivation of what was once called All Hallow's Eve, sort of like Christmas Eve. It was meant as an evening of celebration (or reverence) in anticipation of the next day: All Saints Day (or, in some cultures, I have recently learned, All Souls Day). The masks that are now an obvious part of the tradition were originally meant to ward off evil spirits.

    How ironic, then, that some find this holiday to be evil. It is another example to me of how people with little real knowledge distort things to fit their needs, and I am not writing so much about the believers (although you would hope they would try to keep up with the facts) but those who make such pronouncements to their 'sheep'. Shame on them.

    In any event, my dad used to read the poem posted above to us every Halloween before we went out, back when it was apparently clearly safe to do so.

    Take care, one and all,

    Joe
  • Hondo
    Hondo Member Posts: 6,636 Member

    distortions
    There are some, particularly in the Christian community, who find Halloween to be akin to devil worship and, in fact, do not allow their children to participate in trick or treating, not because it is dangerous, not because it seems like begging, but because they think it represents evil. I know such people personally.

    Sadly, they have not done their homework. While it may be crassly commercial these days, its origins are within religious boundaries, its origins are in the celebration of saints and souls. Halloween is a derivation of what was once called All Hallow's Eve, sort of like Christmas Eve. It was meant as an evening of celebration (or reverence) in anticipation of the next day: All Saints Day (or, in some cultures, I have recently learned, All Souls Day). The masks that are now an obvious part of the tradition were originally meant to ward off evil spirits.

    How ironic, then, that some find this holiday to be evil. It is another example to me of how people with little real knowledge distort things to fit their needs, and I am not writing so much about the believers (although you would hope they would try to keep up with the facts) but those who make such pronouncements to their 'sheep'. Shame on them.

    In any event, my dad used to read the poem posted above to us every Halloween before we went out, back when it was apparently clearly safe to do so.

    Take care, one and all,

    Joe

    Hi Joe

    Halloween is nothing more then dark age mythology that begin with the ancient pagan Celtic, just another carry over from the pagan religion in to the Church during the Dark ages, one of many. Nothing about it gives any glory to God so why would a Christian want anything to do with it. I have no problems with people doing it if they want to, however I would not dress up any of my kids as a devil

    http://godkind.org/pagan-holidays.html
    http://www.history.com/topics/halloween

    Take Care
    ╠╣ONDO
  • dasspears
    dasspears Member Posts: 227

    distortions
    There are some, particularly in the Christian community, who find Halloween to be akin to devil worship and, in fact, do not allow their children to participate in trick or treating, not because it is dangerous, not because it seems like begging, but because they think it represents evil. I know such people personally.

    Sadly, they have not done their homework. While it may be crassly commercial these days, its origins are within religious boundaries, its origins are in the celebration of saints and souls. Halloween is a derivation of what was once called All Hallow's Eve, sort of like Christmas Eve. It was meant as an evening of celebration (or reverence) in anticipation of the next day: All Saints Day (or, in some cultures, I have recently learned, All Souls Day). The masks that are now an obvious part of the tradition were originally meant to ward off evil spirits.

    How ironic, then, that some find this holiday to be evil. It is another example to me of how people with little real knowledge distort things to fit their needs, and I am not writing so much about the believers (although you would hope they would try to keep up with the facts) but those who make such pronouncements to their 'sheep'. Shame on them.

    In any event, my dad used to read the poem posted above to us every Halloween before we went out, back when it was apparently clearly safe to do so.

    Take care, one and all,

    Joe

    Well said....
    Everyone needs some harmless fun in life!
  • soccerfreaks
    soccerfreaks Member Posts: 2,788 Member
    Hondo said:

    Hi Joe

    Halloween is nothing more then dark age mythology that begin with the ancient pagan Celtic, just another carry over from the pagan religion in to the Church during the Dark ages, one of many. Nothing about it gives any glory to God so why would a Christian want anything to do with it. I have no problems with people doing it if they want to, however I would not dress up any of my kids as a devil

    http://godkind.org/pagan-holidays.html
    http://www.history.com/topics/halloween

    Take Care
    ╠╣ONDO

    a little knowledge is a dangerous thing
    From wikipedia:

    Halloween is also thought to have been heavily influenced by the Christian holy days of All Saints' Day (also known as Hallowmas, All Hallows, and Hallowtide) and All Souls' Day.[13] Falling on November 1 and 2 respectively, collectively they were a time for honoring the saints and praying for the recently departed who had yet to reach heaven. By the end of the 12th century they had become days of holy obligation across Europe and involved such traditions as ringing bells for the souls in purgatory and "souling", the custom of baking bread or soul cakes for "all crysten [ christened ] souls".[14] It was traditionally believed that the souls of the departed wandered the earth until All Saints' Day, and All Hallows' Eve provided one last chance for the dead to gain vengeance on their enemies before moving onto the next world.[15] To avoid being recognised by a soul, Christians would wear masques and costumes to disguise themselves, following the lighted candles set by others to guide their travel for worship the next day.[15] Today, this practice has been perpetuated through trick-or-treating.[15]

    In Britain the rituals of Hallowtide and Halloween came under attack during the Reformation as Protestants denounced purgatory as a "popish" doctrine incompatible with the notion of predestination.[13] In addition the increasing popularity of Guy Fawkes Night (5th November) from 1605 on saw Halloween become eclipsed in Britain with the notable exception of Scotland.[16] There and in Ireland, they had been celebrating Samhain and Halloween since the early Middle Ages,[10] and the kirk took a more pragmatic approach towards Halloween, viewing it as important to the life cycle and rites of passage of local communities and thus ensuring its survival in the country.[17] The Puritans of New England, for example, maintained strong opposition to the holiday[18] and it was not until the mass Irish and Scottish immigration during the 19th century that the holiday was introduced to the continent in earnest.[18] Initially confined to the immigrant communities during the mid-19th century, it was gradually assimilated into mainstream society and by the first decade of the 20th century it was being celebrated coast to coast by people of all social, racial and religious backgrounds.[19]
  • soccerfreaks
    soccerfreaks Member Posts: 2,788 Member
    dasspears said:

    Well said....
    Everyone needs some harmless fun in life!

    well said!
    Have to wonder if our anti-pagan friend celebrates Christmas with a tree and Santa Claus since those traditions also pre-date christian ritual and were incorporated by the church?

    Take care,

    Joe
  • Hondo
    Hondo Member Posts: 6,636 Member

    well said!
    Have to wonder if our anti-pagan friend celebrates Christmas with a tree and Santa Claus since those traditions also pre-date christian ritual and were incorporated by the church?

    Take care,

    Joe

    Christmas
    I see nothing wrong with doing good on any holiday. Jesus was not born on December 25th but he was borne and being no one really knows the correct date why not celebrate it at the same time the rest of the world does, tree and all but no Satan Claus or was that Santa Claus. Funny how just one little letter can change the meaning of a word.

    My Son had a friend who Father did not let them celebrate anything not even there birthday, the boy always loved to stay at our house especially on the holidays. But we had to be carful not to break any of his Father rules while he was staying with us, or he would not let him come back.

    While I was working in Africa what was strange to me was that some of the Muslim celebrated Christmas and some of the Christian kept some of the Muslim holidays, what a working relationship, they get more days off from work that way.

    Anything can be taking to the limit all depends on whose limit it is. I always taught my children to respect everyone belief no matter how strange it seamed to them.

    ╠╣ONDO
  • soccerfreaks
    soccerfreaks Member Posts: 2,788 Member
    Hondo said:

    Christmas
    I see nothing wrong with doing good on any holiday. Jesus was not born on December 25th but he was borne and being no one really knows the correct date why not celebrate it at the same time the rest of the world does, tree and all but no Satan Claus or was that Santa Claus. Funny how just one little letter can change the meaning of a word.

    My Son had a friend who Father did not let them celebrate anything not even there birthday, the boy always loved to stay at our house especially on the holidays. But we had to be carful not to break any of his Father rules while he was staying with us, or he would not let him come back.

    While I was working in Africa what was strange to me was that some of the Muslim celebrated Christmas and some of the Christian kept some of the Muslim holidays, what a working relationship, they get more days off from work that way.

    Anything can be taking to the limit all depends on whose limit it is. I always taught my children to respect everyone belief no matter how strange it seamed to them.

    ╠╣ONDO

    Naturally
    Someone didn't like what you said (other than me, of course), and so you change direction and try to appease them while not answering the hypocrisy of celebrating Christmas while not celebrating Halloween, both holidays derived from so-called pagan traditions.

    You are, frankly, full of it.
  • laurettas
    laurettas Member Posts: 372

    Naturally
    Someone didn't like what you said (other than me, of course), and so you change direction and try to appease them while not answering the hypocrisy of celebrating Christmas while not celebrating Halloween, both holidays derived from so-called pagan traditions.

    You are, frankly, full of it.

    Another explanation
    Here is another explanation of the origins of Halloween, similar to the Wikipedia but with a few differences:

    Halloween:
    The Real Story!
    Father Augustine Thompson, O.P.,
    We’ve all heard the allegations. Halloween is a pagan rite dating
    back to some pre-Christian festival among the Celtic Druids that
    escaped Church suppression. Even today modern pagans and
    witches continue to celebrate this ancient festival. If you let your
    kids go trick-or-treating, they will be worshiping the devil and
    pagan gods.
    Nothing could be further from the truth. The origins of Halloween
    are, in fact, very Christian and rather American. Halloween falls
    on Oct. 31 because of a pope, and its observances are the result
    of medieval Catholic piety.
    It’s true that the ancient Celts of Ireland and Britain celebrated a minor festival on Oct.
    31 — as they did on the last day of most other months of the year. However, Halloween
    falls on the last day of October because the Feast of All Saints or "All Hallows" falls on
    Nov. 1. The feast in honor of all the saints in heaven used to be celebrated on May 13,
    but Pope Gregory III (d. 741) moved it to Nov. 1, the dedication day of All Saints Chapel
    in St. Peter’s at Rome. Later, in the 840s, Pope Gregory IV commanded that All Saints
    be observed everywhere. And so the holy day spread to Ireland. The day before was the
    feast’s evening vigil, "All Hallows Even" or "Hallowe’en." In those days, Halloween didn’t
    have any special significance for Christians or for long-dead Celtic pagans.
    In 998, St. Odilo, the abbot of the powerful monastery of Cluny in Southern France,
    added a celebration on Nov. 2. This was a day of prayer for the souls of all the faithful
    departed. This feast, called All Souls Day, spread from France to the rest of Europe.
    So now the Church had feasts for all those in heaven and all those in purgatory? What
    about those in the other place? It seems Irish Catholic peasants wondered about the
    unfortunate souls in hell. After all, if the souls in hell are left out when we celebrate those
    in heaven and purgatory, they might be unhappy enough to cause trouble. So it became
    customary to bang pots and pans on All Hallows Even to let the damned know they were
    not forgotten. Thus, in Ireland, at least, all the dead came to be remembered — even if
    the clergy were not terribly sympathetic to Halloween and never allowed All Damned
    Day into the Church calendar.
    PO Box 271227 + Flower Mound, TX + 75027 + 1-800-803-0118 + www.dritaly.com
    But that still isn’t our celebration of Halloween. Our traditions on this holiday centers
    around dressing up in fanciful costumes, which isn’t Irish at all. Rather, this custom
    arose in France during the 14th and 15th centuries. Late medieval Europe was hit by
    repeated outbreaks of the bubonic plague — the Black Death — and she lost about half
    her population. It is not surprising that Catholics became more concerned about the
    afterlife. More Masses were said on All Souls’ Day, and artistic representations were
    devised to remind everyone of their own mortality.
    We know these representations as the "Dance Macabre" or
    "Dance of Death," which was commonly painted on the walls of
    cemeteries and shows the devil leading a daisy chain of people —
    popes, kings, ladies, knights, monks, peasants, lepers, etc. — into
    the tomb. Sometimes the dance was presented on All Souls’ Day
    itself as a living tableau with people dressed up in the garb of
    various states of life. But the French dressed up on All Souls, not
    Halloween; and the Irish, who had Halloween, did not dress up.
    How the two became mingled probably happened first in the
    British colonies of North America during the 1700s when Irish and French Catholics
    began to intermarry. The Irish focus on hell gave the French masquerades and even
    more macabre twist.
    But, as every young ghoul knows, dressing up isn’t the point; the point is getting as
    many goodies as possible. Where on earth did "trick or treat" come in?
    "Trick or treat" is perhaps the oddest and most American addition to Halloween, and is
    the unwilling contribution of English Catholics.
    During the penal period of the 1500s to the 1700s in England, Catholics had no legal
    rights. They could not hold office and were subject to fines, jail and heavy taxes. It was a
    capital offense to say Mass, and hundreds of priests were martyred.
    Occasionally, English Catholics resisted, sometimes foolishly. One of the most foolish
    acts of resistance was a plot to blow up the Protestant King James I and his Parliament
    with gunpowder. This was supposed to trigger a Catholic uprising against their
    oppressors. The ill-conceived Gunpowder Plot was foiled on Nov. 5, 1605, when the
    man guarding the gunpowder, a reckless convert named Guy Fawkes, was captured and
    arrested. He was hanged; the plot fizzled.
    Nov. 5, Guy Fawkes’ Day, became a great celebration in England, and so it remains.
    During the penal periods, bands of revelers would put on masks and visit local Catholics
    in the dead of night, demanding beer and cakes for their celebration: trick or treat!
    Guy Fawkes’ Day arrived in the American colonies with the first English settlers. But, buy
    the time of the American Revolution, old King James and Guy Fawkes had pretty much
    been forgotten. Trick or treat, though, was too much fun to give up, so eventually it
    moved to Oct. 31, the day of the Irish-French masquerade. And in America, trick or treat
    wasn’t limited to Catholics.
    PO Box 271227 + Flower Mound, TX + 75027 + 1-800-803-0118 + www.dritaly.com
    The mixture of various immigrant traditions we know as Halloween had become a fixture
    in the Unites States by the early 1800s. To this day, it remains unknown in Europe, even
    in the countries from which some of the customs originated.
    But what about witches? Well, they are one of the last
    additions. The greeting card industry added them in the
    late 1800s. Halloween was already "ghoulish," so why
    not give witches a place on greeting cards? The
    Halloween card failed (although it has seen a recent
    resurgence in popularity), but the witches stayed. So,
    too, in the late 1800s, ill-informed folklorists introduced
    the jack-o’-lantern. They thought that Halloween was
    druidic and pagan in origin. Lamps made from turnips
    (not pumpkins) had been part of ancient Celtic harvest
    festivals, so they were translated to the American Halloween celebration.
    The next time someone claims that Halloween is a cruel trick to lure your children into
    devil worship, I suggest you tell them the real origin of All Hallows Even and invite them
    to discover its Christian significance, along with the two greater and more important
    Catholic festivals that follow it.
  • dasspears
    dasspears Member Posts: 227
    laurettas said:

    Another explanation
    Here is another explanation of the origins of Halloween, similar to the Wikipedia but with a few differences:

    Halloween:
    The Real Story!
    Father Augustine Thompson, O.P.,
    We’ve all heard the allegations. Halloween is a pagan rite dating
    back to some pre-Christian festival among the Celtic Druids that
    escaped Church suppression. Even today modern pagans and
    witches continue to celebrate this ancient festival. If you let your
    kids go trick-or-treating, they will be worshiping the devil and
    pagan gods.
    Nothing could be further from the truth. The origins of Halloween
    are, in fact, very Christian and rather American. Halloween falls
    on Oct. 31 because of a pope, and its observances are the result
    of medieval Catholic piety.
    It’s true that the ancient Celts of Ireland and Britain celebrated a minor festival on Oct.
    31 — as they did on the last day of most other months of the year. However, Halloween
    falls on the last day of October because the Feast of All Saints or "All Hallows" falls on
    Nov. 1. The feast in honor of all the saints in heaven used to be celebrated on May 13,
    but Pope Gregory III (d. 741) moved it to Nov. 1, the dedication day of All Saints Chapel
    in St. Peter’s at Rome. Later, in the 840s, Pope Gregory IV commanded that All Saints
    be observed everywhere. And so the holy day spread to Ireland. The day before was the
    feast’s evening vigil, "All Hallows Even" or "Hallowe’en." In those days, Halloween didn’t
    have any special significance for Christians or for long-dead Celtic pagans.
    In 998, St. Odilo, the abbot of the powerful monastery of Cluny in Southern France,
    added a celebration on Nov. 2. This was a day of prayer for the souls of all the faithful
    departed. This feast, called All Souls Day, spread from France to the rest of Europe.
    So now the Church had feasts for all those in heaven and all those in purgatory? What
    about those in the other place? It seems Irish Catholic peasants wondered about the
    unfortunate souls in hell. After all, if the souls in hell are left out when we celebrate those
    in heaven and purgatory, they might be unhappy enough to cause trouble. So it became
    customary to bang pots and pans on All Hallows Even to let the damned know they were
    not forgotten. Thus, in Ireland, at least, all the dead came to be remembered — even if
    the clergy were not terribly sympathetic to Halloween and never allowed All Damned
    Day into the Church calendar.
    PO Box 271227 + Flower Mound, TX + 75027 + 1-800-803-0118 + www.dritaly.com
    But that still isn’t our celebration of Halloween. Our traditions on this holiday centers
    around dressing up in fanciful costumes, which isn’t Irish at all. Rather, this custom
    arose in France during the 14th and 15th centuries. Late medieval Europe was hit by
    repeated outbreaks of the bubonic plague — the Black Death — and she lost about half
    her population. It is not surprising that Catholics became more concerned about the
    afterlife. More Masses were said on All Souls’ Day, and artistic representations were
    devised to remind everyone of their own mortality.
    We know these representations as the "Dance Macabre" or
    "Dance of Death," which was commonly painted on the walls of
    cemeteries and shows the devil leading a daisy chain of people —
    popes, kings, ladies, knights, monks, peasants, lepers, etc. — into
    the tomb. Sometimes the dance was presented on All Souls’ Day
    itself as a living tableau with people dressed up in the garb of
    various states of life. But the French dressed up on All Souls, not
    Halloween; and the Irish, who had Halloween, did not dress up.
    How the two became mingled probably happened first in the
    British colonies of North America during the 1700s when Irish and French Catholics
    began to intermarry. The Irish focus on hell gave the French masquerades and even
    more macabre twist.
    But, as every young ghoul knows, dressing up isn’t the point; the point is getting as
    many goodies as possible. Where on earth did "trick or treat" come in?
    "Trick or treat" is perhaps the oddest and most American addition to Halloween, and is
    the unwilling contribution of English Catholics.
    During the penal period of the 1500s to the 1700s in England, Catholics had no legal
    rights. They could not hold office and were subject to fines, jail and heavy taxes. It was a
    capital offense to say Mass, and hundreds of priests were martyred.
    Occasionally, English Catholics resisted, sometimes foolishly. One of the most foolish
    acts of resistance was a plot to blow up the Protestant King James I and his Parliament
    with gunpowder. This was supposed to trigger a Catholic uprising against their
    oppressors. The ill-conceived Gunpowder Plot was foiled on Nov. 5, 1605, when the
    man guarding the gunpowder, a reckless convert named Guy Fawkes, was captured and
    arrested. He was hanged; the plot fizzled.
    Nov. 5, Guy Fawkes’ Day, became a great celebration in England, and so it remains.
    During the penal periods, bands of revelers would put on masks and visit local Catholics
    in the dead of night, demanding beer and cakes for their celebration: trick or treat!
    Guy Fawkes’ Day arrived in the American colonies with the first English settlers. But, buy
    the time of the American Revolution, old King James and Guy Fawkes had pretty much
    been forgotten. Trick or treat, though, was too much fun to give up, so eventually it
    moved to Oct. 31, the day of the Irish-French masquerade. And in America, trick or treat
    wasn’t limited to Catholics.
    PO Box 271227 + Flower Mound, TX + 75027 + 1-800-803-0118 + www.dritaly.com
    The mixture of various immigrant traditions we know as Halloween had become a fixture
    in the Unites States by the early 1800s. To this day, it remains unknown in Europe, even
    in the countries from which some of the customs originated.
    But what about witches? Well, they are one of the last
    additions. The greeting card industry added them in the
    late 1800s. Halloween was already "ghoulish," so why
    not give witches a place on greeting cards? The
    Halloween card failed (although it has seen a recent
    resurgence in popularity), but the witches stayed. So,
    too, in the late 1800s, ill-informed folklorists introduced
    the jack-o’-lantern. They thought that Halloween was
    druidic and pagan in origin. Lamps made from turnips
    (not pumpkins) had been part of ancient Celtic harvest
    festivals, so they were translated to the American Halloween celebration.
    The next time someone claims that Halloween is a cruel trick to lure your children into
    devil worship, I suggest you tell them the real origin of All Hallows Even and invite them
    to discover its Christian significance, along with the two greater and more important
    Catholic festivals that follow it.

    Interesting!
    I really enjoyed reading this! Thanks for posting it.
  • dasspears
    dasspears Member Posts: 227
    laurettas said:

    Another explanation
    Here is another explanation of the origins of Halloween, similar to the Wikipedia but with a few differences:

    Halloween:
    The Real Story!
    Father Augustine Thompson, O.P.,
    We’ve all heard the allegations. Halloween is a pagan rite dating
    back to some pre-Christian festival among the Celtic Druids that
    escaped Church suppression. Even today modern pagans and
    witches continue to celebrate this ancient festival. If you let your
    kids go trick-or-treating, they will be worshiping the devil and
    pagan gods.
    Nothing could be further from the truth. The origins of Halloween
    are, in fact, very Christian and rather American. Halloween falls
    on Oct. 31 because of a pope, and its observances are the result
    of medieval Catholic piety.
    It’s true that the ancient Celts of Ireland and Britain celebrated a minor festival on Oct.
    31 — as they did on the last day of most other months of the year. However, Halloween
    falls on the last day of October because the Feast of All Saints or "All Hallows" falls on
    Nov. 1. The feast in honor of all the saints in heaven used to be celebrated on May 13,
    but Pope Gregory III (d. 741) moved it to Nov. 1, the dedication day of All Saints Chapel
    in St. Peter’s at Rome. Later, in the 840s, Pope Gregory IV commanded that All Saints
    be observed everywhere. And so the holy day spread to Ireland. The day before was the
    feast’s evening vigil, "All Hallows Even" or "Hallowe’en." In those days, Halloween didn’t
    have any special significance for Christians or for long-dead Celtic pagans.
    In 998, St. Odilo, the abbot of the powerful monastery of Cluny in Southern France,
    added a celebration on Nov. 2. This was a day of prayer for the souls of all the faithful
    departed. This feast, called All Souls Day, spread from France to the rest of Europe.
    So now the Church had feasts for all those in heaven and all those in purgatory? What
    about those in the other place? It seems Irish Catholic peasants wondered about the
    unfortunate souls in hell. After all, if the souls in hell are left out when we celebrate those
    in heaven and purgatory, they might be unhappy enough to cause trouble. So it became
    customary to bang pots and pans on All Hallows Even to let the damned know they were
    not forgotten. Thus, in Ireland, at least, all the dead came to be remembered — even if
    the clergy were not terribly sympathetic to Halloween and never allowed All Damned
    Day into the Church calendar.
    PO Box 271227 + Flower Mound, TX + 75027 + 1-800-803-0118 + www.dritaly.com
    But that still isn’t our celebration of Halloween. Our traditions on this holiday centers
    around dressing up in fanciful costumes, which isn’t Irish at all. Rather, this custom
    arose in France during the 14th and 15th centuries. Late medieval Europe was hit by
    repeated outbreaks of the bubonic plague — the Black Death — and she lost about half
    her population. It is not surprising that Catholics became more concerned about the
    afterlife. More Masses were said on All Souls’ Day, and artistic representations were
    devised to remind everyone of their own mortality.
    We know these representations as the "Dance Macabre" or
    "Dance of Death," which was commonly painted on the walls of
    cemeteries and shows the devil leading a daisy chain of people —
    popes, kings, ladies, knights, monks, peasants, lepers, etc. — into
    the tomb. Sometimes the dance was presented on All Souls’ Day
    itself as a living tableau with people dressed up in the garb of
    various states of life. But the French dressed up on All Souls, not
    Halloween; and the Irish, who had Halloween, did not dress up.
    How the two became mingled probably happened first in the
    British colonies of North America during the 1700s when Irish and French Catholics
    began to intermarry. The Irish focus on hell gave the French masquerades and even
    more macabre twist.
    But, as every young ghoul knows, dressing up isn’t the point; the point is getting as
    many goodies as possible. Where on earth did "trick or treat" come in?
    "Trick or treat" is perhaps the oddest and most American addition to Halloween, and is
    the unwilling contribution of English Catholics.
    During the penal period of the 1500s to the 1700s in England, Catholics had no legal
    rights. They could not hold office and were subject to fines, jail and heavy taxes. It was a
    capital offense to say Mass, and hundreds of priests were martyred.
    Occasionally, English Catholics resisted, sometimes foolishly. One of the most foolish
    acts of resistance was a plot to blow up the Protestant King James I and his Parliament
    with gunpowder. This was supposed to trigger a Catholic uprising against their
    oppressors. The ill-conceived Gunpowder Plot was foiled on Nov. 5, 1605, when the
    man guarding the gunpowder, a reckless convert named Guy Fawkes, was captured and
    arrested. He was hanged; the plot fizzled.
    Nov. 5, Guy Fawkes’ Day, became a great celebration in England, and so it remains.
    During the penal periods, bands of revelers would put on masks and visit local Catholics
    in the dead of night, demanding beer and cakes for their celebration: trick or treat!
    Guy Fawkes’ Day arrived in the American colonies with the first English settlers. But, buy
    the time of the American Revolution, old King James and Guy Fawkes had pretty much
    been forgotten. Trick or treat, though, was too much fun to give up, so eventually it
    moved to Oct. 31, the day of the Irish-French masquerade. And in America, trick or treat
    wasn’t limited to Catholics.
    PO Box 271227 + Flower Mound, TX + 75027 + 1-800-803-0118 + www.dritaly.com
    The mixture of various immigrant traditions we know as Halloween had become a fixture
    in the Unites States by the early 1800s. To this day, it remains unknown in Europe, even
    in the countries from which some of the customs originated.
    But what about witches? Well, they are one of the last
    additions. The greeting card industry added them in the
    late 1800s. Halloween was already "ghoulish," so why
    not give witches a place on greeting cards? The
    Halloween card failed (although it has seen a recent
    resurgence in popularity), but the witches stayed. So,
    too, in the late 1800s, ill-informed folklorists introduced
    the jack-o’-lantern. They thought that Halloween was
    druidic and pagan in origin. Lamps made from turnips
    (not pumpkins) had been part of ancient Celtic harvest
    festivals, so they were translated to the American Halloween celebration.
    The next time someone claims that Halloween is a cruel trick to lure your children into
    devil worship, I suggest you tell them the real origin of All Hallows Even and invite them
    to discover its Christian significance, along with the two greater and more important
    Catholic festivals that follow it.

    Interesting!
    I really enjoyed reading this! Thanks for posting it.
  • Hondo
    Hondo Member Posts: 6,636 Member

    Naturally
    Someone didn't like what you said (other than me, of course), and so you change direction and try to appease them while not answering the hypocrisy of celebrating Christmas while not celebrating Halloween, both holidays derived from so-called pagan traditions.

    You are, frankly, full of it.

    Appeasing
    Joe you of all people should know that I don’t appease to anyone. I will tell you what I believe and don’t really care if someone agrees with that or not because we all have our opinion. Not to say you are wrong and I am right or you are right and I am wrong, it is how you believe.

    A holiday may be pagan and not Christian but I see nothing wrong with keeping it as long as you push the pagan out of it and give God glory. Like I said on Christmas while the world is keeping the holiday I see nothing wrong with giving glory to God as I know he was born on someday and not on Dec 25th. I can keep any day as his birthday but why not keep it on that day, nothing appeasing to anyone there.

    On Halloween I don’t take part in it but my children do go out side and hand out candy along with bible scripture. Again nothing wrong with doing good even on a pagan holiday.

    A far as how many people read the stuff we hand out is not my concern; I am doing Gods will in letting people know about Him even on a pagan holiday. Again nothing wrong with doing good no matter what day it is. I find that there is always a way to take something evil and turn it to the glory of God no matter how many people agree with it or not.

    ╠╣ONDO
  • mariam_11_09
    mariam_11_09 Member Posts: 691 Member
    Hondo said:

    Christmas
    I see nothing wrong with doing good on any holiday. Jesus was not born on December 25th but he was borne and being no one really knows the correct date why not celebrate it at the same time the rest of the world does, tree and all but no Satan Claus or was that Santa Claus. Funny how just one little letter can change the meaning of a word.

    My Son had a friend who Father did not let them celebrate anything not even there birthday, the boy always loved to stay at our house especially on the holidays. But we had to be carful not to break any of his Father rules while he was staying with us, or he would not let him come back.

    While I was working in Africa what was strange to me was that some of the Muslim celebrated Christmas and some of the Christian kept some of the Muslim holidays, what a working relationship, they get more days off from work that way.

    Anything can be taking to the limit all depends on whose limit it is. I always taught my children to respect everyone belief no matter how strange it seamed to them.

    ╠╣ONDO

    Muslims in Africa celebrate

    Muslims in Africa celebrate Christmas in a religous sense because they recognise that Jesus was a prophet send by Allah and appreciate his teachings not because they wanted a day off work.

    I love Christmas in Agadez (a muslim city in Niger). There is no gift giving perhaps because of povery but many, many Muslim people descend on the Togolese Catholic church behind our house for mass at midnight and/or Christmas morning followed by dancing and food. The Muslims celebrate it with the same joy that they do Eid Al Fitr and Eid Al Adha.

    I can understand Christians celebrating Eid Al Adha (Festival of Sacrifice) which is about Ibrahim attempting to sacrifice his son when Allah stopped him. This celebration is about sacrifice and surrending to Allah. Eid Al Fitr is celebrating the end of Ramadan and really if you are in a Muslim majority it is difficult not to get caught up in this celebration.

    But I agree, Halloween is a time for just having fun! It brings out creativity, resourcefulness, generosity, kids get to meet their neighbours and just have a great time. My daughter loves it from designing and making her costume to collecting candy with her friends.
  • soccerfreaks
    soccerfreaks Member Posts: 2,788 Member
    laurettas said:

    Another explanation
    Here is another explanation of the origins of Halloween, similar to the Wikipedia but with a few differences:

    Halloween:
    The Real Story!
    Father Augustine Thompson, O.P.,
    We’ve all heard the allegations. Halloween is a pagan rite dating
    back to some pre-Christian festival among the Celtic Druids that
    escaped Church suppression. Even today modern pagans and
    witches continue to celebrate this ancient festival. If you let your
    kids go trick-or-treating, they will be worshiping the devil and
    pagan gods.
    Nothing could be further from the truth. The origins of Halloween
    are, in fact, very Christian and rather American. Halloween falls
    on Oct. 31 because of a pope, and its observances are the result
    of medieval Catholic piety.
    It’s true that the ancient Celts of Ireland and Britain celebrated a minor festival on Oct.
    31 — as they did on the last day of most other months of the year. However, Halloween
    falls on the last day of October because the Feast of All Saints or "All Hallows" falls on
    Nov. 1. The feast in honor of all the saints in heaven used to be celebrated on May 13,
    but Pope Gregory III (d. 741) moved it to Nov. 1, the dedication day of All Saints Chapel
    in St. Peter’s at Rome. Later, in the 840s, Pope Gregory IV commanded that All Saints
    be observed everywhere. And so the holy day spread to Ireland. The day before was the
    feast’s evening vigil, "All Hallows Even" or "Hallowe’en." In those days, Halloween didn’t
    have any special significance for Christians or for long-dead Celtic pagans.
    In 998, St. Odilo, the abbot of the powerful monastery of Cluny in Southern France,
    added a celebration on Nov. 2. This was a day of prayer for the souls of all the faithful
    departed. This feast, called All Souls Day, spread from France to the rest of Europe.
    So now the Church had feasts for all those in heaven and all those in purgatory? What
    about those in the other place? It seems Irish Catholic peasants wondered about the
    unfortunate souls in hell. After all, if the souls in hell are left out when we celebrate those
    in heaven and purgatory, they might be unhappy enough to cause trouble. So it became
    customary to bang pots and pans on All Hallows Even to let the damned know they were
    not forgotten. Thus, in Ireland, at least, all the dead came to be remembered — even if
    the clergy were not terribly sympathetic to Halloween and never allowed All Damned
    Day into the Church calendar.
    PO Box 271227 + Flower Mound, TX + 75027 + 1-800-803-0118 + www.dritaly.com
    But that still isn’t our celebration of Halloween. Our traditions on this holiday centers
    around dressing up in fanciful costumes, which isn’t Irish at all. Rather, this custom
    arose in France during the 14th and 15th centuries. Late medieval Europe was hit by
    repeated outbreaks of the bubonic plague — the Black Death — and she lost about half
    her population. It is not surprising that Catholics became more concerned about the
    afterlife. More Masses were said on All Souls’ Day, and artistic representations were
    devised to remind everyone of their own mortality.
    We know these representations as the "Dance Macabre" or
    "Dance of Death," which was commonly painted on the walls of
    cemeteries and shows the devil leading a daisy chain of people —
    popes, kings, ladies, knights, monks, peasants, lepers, etc. — into
    the tomb. Sometimes the dance was presented on All Souls’ Day
    itself as a living tableau with people dressed up in the garb of
    various states of life. But the French dressed up on All Souls, not
    Halloween; and the Irish, who had Halloween, did not dress up.
    How the two became mingled probably happened first in the
    British colonies of North America during the 1700s when Irish and French Catholics
    began to intermarry. The Irish focus on hell gave the French masquerades and even
    more macabre twist.
    But, as every young ghoul knows, dressing up isn’t the point; the point is getting as
    many goodies as possible. Where on earth did "trick or treat" come in?
    "Trick or treat" is perhaps the oddest and most American addition to Halloween, and is
    the unwilling contribution of English Catholics.
    During the penal period of the 1500s to the 1700s in England, Catholics had no legal
    rights. They could not hold office and were subject to fines, jail and heavy taxes. It was a
    capital offense to say Mass, and hundreds of priests were martyred.
    Occasionally, English Catholics resisted, sometimes foolishly. One of the most foolish
    acts of resistance was a plot to blow up the Protestant King James I and his Parliament
    with gunpowder. This was supposed to trigger a Catholic uprising against their
    oppressors. The ill-conceived Gunpowder Plot was foiled on Nov. 5, 1605, when the
    man guarding the gunpowder, a reckless convert named Guy Fawkes, was captured and
    arrested. He was hanged; the plot fizzled.
    Nov. 5, Guy Fawkes’ Day, became a great celebration in England, and so it remains.
    During the penal periods, bands of revelers would put on masks and visit local Catholics
    in the dead of night, demanding beer and cakes for their celebration: trick or treat!
    Guy Fawkes’ Day arrived in the American colonies with the first English settlers. But, buy
    the time of the American Revolution, old King James and Guy Fawkes had pretty much
    been forgotten. Trick or treat, though, was too much fun to give up, so eventually it
    moved to Oct. 31, the day of the Irish-French masquerade. And in America, trick or treat
    wasn’t limited to Catholics.
    PO Box 271227 + Flower Mound, TX + 75027 + 1-800-803-0118 + www.dritaly.com
    The mixture of various immigrant traditions we know as Halloween had become a fixture
    in the Unites States by the early 1800s. To this day, it remains unknown in Europe, even
    in the countries from which some of the customs originated.
    But what about witches? Well, they are one of the last
    additions. The greeting card industry added them in the
    late 1800s. Halloween was already "ghoulish," so why
    not give witches a place on greeting cards? The
    Halloween card failed (although it has seen a recent
    resurgence in popularity), but the witches stayed. So,
    too, in the late 1800s, ill-informed folklorists introduced
    the jack-o’-lantern. They thought that Halloween was
    druidic and pagan in origin. Lamps made from turnips
    (not pumpkins) had been part of ancient Celtic harvest
    festivals, so they were translated to the American Halloween celebration.
    The next time someone claims that Halloween is a cruel trick to lure your children into
    devil worship, I suggest you tell them the real origin of All Hallows Even and invite them
    to discover its Christian significance, along with the two greater and more important
    Catholic festivals that follow it.

    :)
    Thanks for a most enlightening response.

    Take care,

    Joe
  • laurettas
    laurettas Member Posts: 372
    dasspears said:

    Interesting!
    I really enjoyed reading this! Thanks for posting it.

    You're welcome!
    Sorry for the "ads" in the middle--teach me to not carefully read my copy and paste!
  • Buckwirth
    Buckwirth Member Posts: 1,258 Member

    well said!
    Have to wonder if our anti-pagan friend celebrates Christmas with a tree and Santa Claus since those traditions also pre-date christian ritual and were incorporated by the church?

    Take care,

    Joe

    Why do you have to make something pagan?
    Just treat it as secular. Fourth of July, memorial day..

    I find it funny that the religious right pushed to move DST back a week so the kids could go out in daylight (they just go out later).

    It's fun, have fun with it.
  • Hondo
    Hondo Member Posts: 6,636 Member
    Buckwirth said:

    Why do you have to make something pagan?
    Just treat it as secular. Fourth of July, memorial day..

    I find it funny that the religious right pushed to move DST back a week so the kids could go out in daylight (they just go out later).

    It's fun, have fun with it.

    Hi Buck
    I understand your point but I don’t believe we make it pagan, it is pagan because it came from a form of a pagan religion. Back in the dark ages it crept into the Church as did a lot of other pagan religious beliefs that are still kept today.

    I am all for fun I just rather my fun without the Devil somewhere in it, same as you would without something religious in it, I am sure you can agree with that.

    ╠╣ONDO
  • laurettas
    laurettas Member Posts: 372
    Hondo said:

    Hi Buck
    I understand your point but I don’t believe we make it pagan, it is pagan because it came from a form of a pagan religion. Back in the dark ages it crept into the Church as did a lot of other pagan religious beliefs that are still kept today.

    I am all for fun I just rather my fun without the Devil somewhere in it, same as you would without something religious in it, I am sure you can agree with that.

    ╠╣ONDO

    It doesn't matter
    Hondo, it doesn't matter if something had pagan origins. What matters is what it has become. St. Paul engaged the pagans in Greece and showed them the elements of truth in their pagan beliefs. We can take something pagan and reveal the hidden truths contained in it. The Christmas tree may have pagan origins but we can explain the Christian truths contained in it--the lights as the light of Christ; the evergreen as a sign of eternity, etc. etc. I think a lot of the misunderstanding comes from an ignorance of Christian history. The article I posted was an in depth explanation of the Christian sources of the Halloween customs. Most people have no idea of those historical facts.
  • soccerfreaks
    soccerfreaks Member Posts: 2,788 Member
    laurettas said:

    It doesn't matter
    Hondo, it doesn't matter if something had pagan origins. What matters is what it has become. St. Paul engaged the pagans in Greece and showed them the elements of truth in their pagan beliefs. We can take something pagan and reveal the hidden truths contained in it. The Christmas tree may have pagan origins but we can explain the Christian truths contained in it--the lights as the light of Christ; the evergreen as a sign of eternity, etc. etc. I think a lot of the misunderstanding comes from an ignorance of Christian history. The article I posted was an in depth explanation of the Christian sources of the Halloween customs. Most people have no idea of those historical facts.

    Well said!
    And appropriately directed,

    Take care,

    Joe
  • Hondo
    Hondo Member Posts: 6,636 Member
    laurettas said:

    It doesn't matter
    Hondo, it doesn't matter if something had pagan origins. What matters is what it has become. St. Paul engaged the pagans in Greece and showed them the elements of truth in their pagan beliefs. We can take something pagan and reveal the hidden truths contained in it. The Christmas tree may have pagan origins but we can explain the Christian truths contained in it--the lights as the light of Christ; the evergreen as a sign of eternity, etc. etc. I think a lot of the misunderstanding comes from an ignorance of Christian history. The article I posted was an in depth explanation of the Christian sources of the Halloween customs. Most people have no idea of those historical facts.

    Hi laurettas
    To me things like this do matter, it may be just a opinion or a belief but I find everything I need in Gods Holy Word. There may be something good in the evil but why go there unless you can turn what is evil to do good for God. I don’t like Halloween that is my opinion because I don’t believe dressing up as something evil is good or can be, don’t make sense to me and I see no fun in it. So I can shut my doors and let it go by or I can try to do something good on an evil day. That is what we do by handing out tracks or scripture pamphlets that help people who may not know God to atlease know about him. I know it is all a matter of what you believe, for me the only truth there is, is in God and his Holy Word everything else apart from that is only a lie.

    Thanks you for your comments, it is good to be able to have a dialogue with others on a subject with out the character assassination that some people have at others when they don’t agree with it.

    Hondo
  • Buckwirth
    Buckwirth Member Posts: 1,258 Member
    Hondo said:

    Hi laurettas
    To me things like this do matter, it may be just a opinion or a belief but I find everything I need in Gods Holy Word. There may be something good in the evil but why go there unless you can turn what is evil to do good for God. I don’t like Halloween that is my opinion because I don’t believe dressing up as something evil is good or can be, don’t make sense to me and I see no fun in it. So I can shut my doors and let it go by or I can try to do something good on an evil day. That is what we do by handing out tracks or scripture pamphlets that help people who may not know God to atlease know about him. I know it is all a matter of what you believe, for me the only truth there is, is in God and his Holy Word everything else apart from that is only a lie.

    Thanks you for your comments, it is good to be able to have a dialogue with others on a subject with out the character assassination that some people have at others when they don’t agree with it.

    Hondo

    Did you read
    The history she posted?

    Dress up as Robin Hood, or a cowboy, and quit making the innocent evil. Next we know someone is going to start in about the war on Christmas...